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Intermittent problem - engine starts missing and cutting out, almost dies.
#1
M
Marty Singletary
M
Marty Singletary
Hoping someone can give me some idea what could be happening. I have a 2006 STT72A-35BV-SS Scag Turf Tiger. Have had for 13 years and has always run great. Recently lost two PTO switches until I realized the coil for the PTO Clutch was dying and finally went belly up. So I replaced the clutch and rebuild the mower spindles, replaced all belts, all idle pulleys. Not that these parts were bad but, 13 years old and had never been replaced. All was well and began mowing again thinking I should be trouble free.
Now the Briggs and Stratton Vangaurd 35HP model 613177 type 0114-E1 code 05122612 will run great for around and hour and then intermittently start cutting out and looses power and acts like it is not getting gas. I unload buy turning off mower deck and it starts running fine again but will keep repeating the problem every few minutes. If I let it sit and cool it will run great again for a good period of time (hour or so) and then start same problem intermittently. So I replaced the air filters, the spark plugs, the dual fuel pumps, the electric module, For kicks and grins the radiator fluid and the drive filter and fluid. Thinking it was the fuel pumps only to find again after about an hour of mowing it starts to pop and sputter intermittently again.
This is a water cooled unit and I watch the temperature gauge and it does not rise or lower from what has always been normal. I am at my limit I don't know what to do to solve this problem. The only manual I have is the operators manual that came with the mower when I bought it new. It has no engine information and is far from a shop/repair manual of which I cannot find on this mower. Can anyone point me in the right direction?
Now the Briggs and Stratton Vangaurd 35HP model 613177 type 0114-E1 code 05122612 will run great for around and hour and then intermittently start cutting out and looses power and acts like it is not getting gas. I unload buy turning off mower deck and it starts running fine again but will keep repeating the problem every few minutes. If I let it sit and cool it will run great again for a good period of time (hour or so) and then start same problem intermittently. So I replaced the air filters, the spark plugs, the dual fuel pumps, the electric module, For kicks and grins the radiator fluid and the drive filter and fluid. Thinking it was the fuel pumps only to find again after about an hour of mowing it starts to pop and sputter intermittently again.
This is a water cooled unit and I watch the temperature gauge and it does not rise or lower from what has always been normal. I am at my limit I don't know what to do to solve this problem. The only manual I have is the operators manual that came with the mower when I bought it new. It has no engine information and is far from a shop/repair manual of which I cannot find on this mower. Can anyone point me in the right direction?
#2
Fish
Fish
I would adjust the valves first.
#3
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Then hook the mower up to an alternate fuel tank when it starts to play up.
Floating debris gets pulled into the fuel outlets on the tanks when you are sucking large volumes of fuel.
This forms a plug which slows down the volume of fuel that can flow through the fuel lines so after a while the engine starves.
You can get a similar things happening at fuel taps on multi tanked mowers.
Floating debris gets pulled into the fuel outlets on the tanks when you are sucking large volumes of fuel.
This forms a plug which slows down the volume of fuel that can flow through the fuel lines so after a while the engine starves.
You can get a similar things happening at fuel taps on multi tanked mowers.
#5
Fish
Fish
repair manual #275429
#6
Fish
Fish
Intake .007 - .010
Exhaust .007 - .010
Exhaust .007 - .010
#7
M
Marty Singletary
Thank you I have ordered #275429 $40. I don't know what this covers but I will be very happy if it gets me past my problem.
Thanks again.
M
Marty Singletary
repair manual #275429
Thank you I have ordered #275429 $40. I don't know what this covers but I will be very happy if it gets me past my problem.
Thanks again.
#8
M
Marty Singletary
Fish - FYI thanks for your advice My intake and exhaust valve ranged from .012 to .016. I now have them all set at .008. It will be a few days before I mow again to give it the test.
Thanks again, Marty
M
Marty Singletary
Intake .007 - .010
Exhaust .007 - .010
Fish - FYI thanks for your advice My intake and exhaust valve ranged from .012 to .016. I now have them all set at .008. It will be a few days before I mow again to give it the test.
Thanks again, Marty
#9
mcdonell
mcdonell
Since the motor runs fine for an hour, Bertmobile 1 answer makes the most sense to me. Rust in tank gathers to plug fuel exit. I have a tractor that does this. I would blow an low pressure air line back from the fuel filter into the tank to push the sediment away from the tank outlet.
#10
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Both have value
Valves that are too tight or too lose can & do cause problems as the engine heats up.
Valves being mechanical are easy to check & set.
Even if his problem is a plug the engine should run a whole lot better now with the correct valve lash.
Valves that are too tight or too lose can & do cause problems as the engine heats up.
Valves being mechanical are easy to check & set.
Even if his problem is a plug the engine should run a whole lot better now with the correct valve lash.
#11
M
Marty Singletary
There is no sediment. There is nothing in the old or the new fuel filter. The gas tank is also made of plastic. No rust. No anything else. The fuel filter is new and clear plastic, gas is passing clear and clean.
M
Marty Singletary
Since the motor runs fine for an hour, Bertmobile 1 answer makes the most sense to me. Rust in tank gathers to plug fuel exit. I have a tractor that does this. I would blow an low pressure air line back from the fuel filter into the tank to push the sediment away from the tank outlet.
There is no sediment. There is nothing in the old or the new fuel filter. The gas tank is also made of plastic. No rust. No anything else. The fuel filter is new and clear plastic, gas is passing clear and clean.
#12
B
bertsmobile1
Just so you have this clear in your head, and it might not be a contributing factor.
Grass clippings end up in the fuel tanks of most mowers along with all sorts of other strange things.
The fuel displaces the water in the clippings so they sort of float in the fuel , not on top of it, much like alge scum in a bottle of water.
When fuel is being drawn out of the tank they get dragged to the outlet by the current in the tank where they can form a plug.
Come tanks are known for having a casting fin which partially blocks the outlet & snags all of the floaties passing by it, Cubs are notorious for it.
This can take anywhere from 15 minutes to several hours.
Because they do not pass through the tank outlet, they do not end up in the filter.
When the engine stops, there is no flow so they float off and disperse sort of evenly in the tank again.
So after a 1/2 hour or so enough of them have dispersed to allow full fuel flow & the mower starts right up & runs like a pearler.
Two tests for this
1) the instant the mower cuts out whip off the fuel line from the tank, before the filter or pump and blow back through it as the previous poster mentioned with his rust clogging tank.
IF the mower starts back up right away in place of waiting the 1/2 hour or whatever is the normal recovery time then a plug becomes prime suspect
2) use a auxiliary fuel tank either for the whole mow or plug it in the instant the engine stops.
Remember you are there describing what is happening in words.
We have nothing to go on but those words
People use different words to mean the same thing and the same words to mean different things , they often overlook things that tech would pick up on if we were there looking at your mower & drinking your beer.
Every tech can tell the difference between an electrical stall & a fuel stall by the actual sounds the mower makes and the sequence of those sounds.
Like a lot of things, mower repair is the art of eliminating what the problem is not rather than waving a magic wand and pronouncing what the problem is.
There are very few instances where a single set of symptoms define a specific problem and in many cases the actual problem can & does have several problems at its root cause.
Now you have a problem that you have not encountered before so you don't understand what is happening.
We are all trying to assist you and any one else who chances upon this thread with a similar set of symptoms.
You might also like to take note that no one has fobbed you off with a "change this part " as if we are the Gods of small engine repairs.
We have simply asked you to do some investigating and get back to us with the results.
If we were there we would have recognised that the valve lashes were way out of spec by the way the engine starts and the sounds it makes running.
You may or may not have a plug but we do not know that until it has been checked.
If your problem was nothing more than the valve lash they lucky you just try to remember to check them every couple of seasons.
B
bertsmobile1
There is no sediment. There is nothing in the old or the new fuel filter. The gas tank is also made of plastic. No rust. No anything else. The fuel filter is new and clear plastic, gas is passing clear and clean.
Just so you have this clear in your head, and it might not be a contributing factor.
Grass clippings end up in the fuel tanks of most mowers along with all sorts of other strange things.
The fuel displaces the water in the clippings so they sort of float in the fuel , not on top of it, much like alge scum in a bottle of water.
When fuel is being drawn out of the tank they get dragged to the outlet by the current in the tank where they can form a plug.
Come tanks are known for having a casting fin which partially blocks the outlet & snags all of the floaties passing by it, Cubs are notorious for it.
This can take anywhere from 15 minutes to several hours.
Because they do not pass through the tank outlet, they do not end up in the filter.
When the engine stops, there is no flow so they float off and disperse sort of evenly in the tank again.
So after a 1/2 hour or so enough of them have dispersed to allow full fuel flow & the mower starts right up & runs like a pearler.
Two tests for this
1) the instant the mower cuts out whip off the fuel line from the tank, before the filter or pump and blow back through it as the previous poster mentioned with his rust clogging tank.
IF the mower starts back up right away in place of waiting the 1/2 hour or whatever is the normal recovery time then a plug becomes prime suspect
2) use a auxiliary fuel tank either for the whole mow or plug it in the instant the engine stops.
Remember you are there describing what is happening in words.
We have nothing to go on but those words
People use different words to mean the same thing and the same words to mean different things , they often overlook things that tech would pick up on if we were there looking at your mower & drinking your beer.
Every tech can tell the difference between an electrical stall & a fuel stall by the actual sounds the mower makes and the sequence of those sounds.
Like a lot of things, mower repair is the art of eliminating what the problem is not rather than waving a magic wand and pronouncing what the problem is.
There are very few instances where a single set of symptoms define a specific problem and in many cases the actual problem can & does have several problems at its root cause.
Now you have a problem that you have not encountered before so you don't understand what is happening.
We are all trying to assist you and any one else who chances upon this thread with a similar set of symptoms.
You might also like to take note that no one has fobbed you off with a "change this part " as if we are the Gods of small engine repairs.
We have simply asked you to do some investigating and get back to us with the results.
If we were there we would have recognised that the valve lashes were way out of spec by the way the engine starts and the sounds it makes running.
You may or may not have a plug but we do not know that until it has been checked.
If your problem was nothing more than the valve lash they lucky you just try to remember to check them every couple of seasons.
#13
M
Marty Singletary
Did not wish to insult of say you are wrong, just do not see and evidence of sediment or debris and fuel filter. If after my next run (mow) if I still have the problem with the now rest valves. The certainly this sounds like the next step to solve my mystery. Sounds like ultimately if this were the case I would then have to look at a way to clean out the fuel tank.
Thanks for your comments, Marty
M
Marty Singletary
Just so you have this clear in your head, and it might not be a contributing factor.
Grass clippings end up in the fuel tanks of most mowers along with all sorts of other strange things.
The fuel displaces the water in the clippings so they sort of float in the fuel , not on top of it, much like alge scum in a bottle of water.
When fuel is being drawn out of the tank they get dragged to the outlet by the current in the tank where they can form a plug.
Come tanks are known for having a casting fin which partially blocks the outlet & snags all of the floaties passing by it, Cubs are notorious for it.
This can take anywhere from 15 minutes to several hours.
Because they do not pass through the tank outlet, they do not end up in the filter.
When the engine stops, there is no flow so they float off and disperse sort of evenly in the tank again.
So after a 1/2 hour or so enough of them have dispersed to allow full fuel flow & the mower starts right up & runs like a pearler.
Two tests for this
1) the instant the mower cuts out whip off the fuel line from the tank, before the filter or pump and blow back through it as the previous poster mentioned with his rust clogging tank.
IF the mower starts back up right away in place of waiting the 1/2 hour or whatever is the normal recovery time then a plug becomes prime suspect
2) use a auxiliary fuel tank either for the whole mow or plug it in the instant the engine stops.
Remember you are there describing what is happening in words.
We have nothing to go on but those words
People use different words to mean the same thing and the same words to mean different things , they often overlook things that tech would pick up on if we were there looking at your mower & drinking your beer.
Every tech can tell the difference between an electrical stall & a fuel stall by the actual sounds the mower makes and the sequence of those sounds.
Like a lot of things, mower repair is the art of eliminating what the problem is not rather than waving a magic wand and pronouncing what the problem is.
There are very few instances where a single set of symptoms define a specific problem and in many cases the actual problem can & does have several problems at its root cause.
Now you have a problem that you have not encountered before so you don't understand what is happening.
We are all trying to assist you and any one else who chances upon this thread with a similar set of symptoms.
You might also like to take note that no one has fobbed you off with a "change this part " as if we are the Gods of small engine repairs.
We have simply asked you to do some investigating and get back to us with the results.
If we were there we would have recognised that the valve lashes were way out of spec by the way the engine starts and the sounds it makes running.
You may or may not have a plug but we do not know that until it has been checked.
If your problem was nothing more than the valve lash they lucky you just try to remember to check them every couple of seasons.
Did not wish to insult of say you are wrong, just do not see and evidence of sediment or debris and fuel filter. If after my next run (mow) if I still have the problem with the now rest valves. The certainly this sounds like the next step to solve my mystery. Sounds like ultimately if this were the case I would then have to look at a way to clean out the fuel tank.
Thanks for your comments, Marty
#14
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
You would have to work very hard to insult me.
If you are lucky the valve adjustment will get you out of trouble
If not check the tank
To clean it out drain the tank, remove the filler cap them blow compressed air back up the fuel line.
Once the tank is dry the escaping air will take the light stuff with it.
After that things start to get expensive.
If you are lucky the valve adjustment will get you out of trouble
If not check the tank
To clean it out drain the tank, remove the filler cap them blow compressed air back up the fuel line.
Once the tank is dry the escaping air will take the light stuff with it.
After that things start to get expensive.
#15
M
Marty Singletary
Thanks again sound like a plan.
Marty
M
Marty Singletary
You would have to work very hard to insult me.
If you are lucky the valve adjustment will get you out of trouble
If not check the tank
To clean it out drain the tank, remove the filler cap them blow compressed air back up the fuel line.
Once the tank is dry the escaping air will take the light stuff with it.
After that things start to get expensive.
Thanks again sound like a plan.
Marty
#16
M
Marty Singletary
I am glad I reset the valve to the values to what they should be at but that did not turn out to be the ultimate problem. I admit I was a skeptic since the Cat is 13 years old and I have always used a funnel with a screen to put gas in the tank. But you were the man with the correct answer. I guess I was being lazy since I had to get the mower up on blocks to get to the fuel line under the mower. With that said a partial fuel line block is what the problem was. Although it took 13 years the block was created by plastic shavings that must have been in the tank since the day it was built. Looked like the same black plastic as the tank, that must have been created when they drilled the hole for the gas outlet fitting. Any way was only getting a dribble when emptying tank until I blew backward and instantly got a pop as the plug blew back into the tank and then as you know now I got a good flow. Tank drained to the bottom of outlet port, then I made a mop from paper towel and an aluminum stick and started to mop the remainder of gas from the tank. The paper towel not only picked up the remaining gas but also all the plastic shavings stuck to the mop and was able to get the tank cleaned.
Thanks again for your experienced input, it solved my problem.
M
Marty Singletary
Thanks again sound like a plan.
Marty
I am glad I reset the valve to the values to what they should be at but that did not turn out to be the ultimate problem. I admit I was a skeptic since the Cat is 13 years old and I have always used a funnel with a screen to put gas in the tank. But you were the man with the correct answer. I guess I was being lazy since I had to get the mower up on blocks to get to the fuel line under the mower. With that said a partial fuel line block is what the problem was. Although it took 13 years the block was created by plastic shavings that must have been in the tank since the day it was built. Looked like the same black plastic as the tank, that must have been created when they drilled the hole for the gas outlet fitting. Any way was only getting a dribble when emptying tank until I blew backward and instantly got a pop as the plug blew back into the tank and then as you know now I got a good flow. Tank drained to the bottom of outlet port, then I made a mop from paper towel and an aluminum stick and started to mop the remainder of gas from the tank. The paper towel not only picked up the remaining gas but also all the plastic shavings stuck to the mop and was able to get the tank cleaned.
Thanks again for your experienced input, it solved my problem.
#17
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Thanks for getting back.
It is always good when not only some one fixes their mower but also comes back on to tell everyone what worked.
So now with a clean tank & correctly set valves you are good for another long run.
Listen to the sound that the engine makes when it is cranking, when that starts to become lumpy, time to do the valves again.
As for your tank. I find it easier to use compressed air from a vary long air duster.
Got a couple with hooked ends to get into the corners but id does require a lot of air to push the gunk out.
You wouldbe amazed at what comes out of some tanks,,, I am.
It is always good when not only some one fixes their mower but also comes back on to tell everyone what worked.
So now with a clean tank & correctly set valves you are good for another long run.
Listen to the sound that the engine makes when it is cranking, when that starts to become lumpy, time to do the valves again.
As for your tank. I find it easier to use compressed air from a vary long air duster.
Got a couple with hooked ends to get into the corners but id does require a lot of air to push the gunk out.
You wouldbe amazed at what comes out of some tanks,,, I am.
#18
M
Marty Singletary
Yes i did use compressed air also. I can tell when I start the engine that it was requiring that I choke it and keep the choke on until it really was getting gas to keep running with out the choke on. Now It starts with out the choke, and gets up to rpm fast and clean.
Again you all are great. Thanks again.
M
Marty Singletary
Thanks for getting back.
It is always good when not only some one fixes their mower but also comes back on to tell everyone what worked.
So now with a clean tank & correctly set valves you are good for another long run.
Listen to the sound that the engine makes when it is cranking, when that starts to become lumpy, time to do the valves again.
As for your tank. I find it easier to use compressed air from a vary long air duster.
Got a couple with hooked ends to get into the corners but id does require a lot of air to push the gunk out.
You wouldbe amazed at what comes out of some tanks,,, I am.
Yes i did use compressed air also. I can tell when I start the engine that it was requiring that I choke it and keep the choke on until it really was getting gas to keep running with out the choke on. Now It starts with out the choke, and gets up to rpm fast and clean.
Again you all are great. Thanks again.