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inMower will not start
#1
L
Lui_5793
L
Lui_5793
I have a Craftsman T210 with the Kohler 5400 series engine (PS-KS540-3011) 18HP 541CC. It belongs to my cousin and their original issue is that it would not turn over. First, I found that current battery had only 1v, was told they replaced the battery, and it was a new one but could've not had a charge when bought. The battery that was on the mower had somewhere around 200cc.I used a battery off my zero turn (345cc) and the mower would turn over but very slowly but then stop at the compression stroke. After looking at YouTube`, I found that it could possibly be a bad ACR. A video showed that to bypass this issue, just cover the air intake while starting mower and it would start. I tried this and sure enough it worked. So I go ahead and tear engine apart, come to find that ACR is still okay. Its not damaged or seized up. Internals looked good for the most part. Talked with my cousin and her husband was the last person to use the mower. He told me that he went to start it one day and it would not turn over. He states that he got a new battery and it just wouldn't start. He says he kept trying to start it but eventually started to see fumes come out from underneath hood. He states after that happened, he tried again but nothing happened. I did adjust the valves several times but still no new results. I bench tested starter with a jump box and it seems to turn just fine. Im honestly stumped. Could it be the starter solenoid giving out? It has to be something electrical at this point.
#2
ILENGINE
ILENGINE
Appears the battery may be under the seat therefore the solenoid is next to the battery. Hence smoke under hood not from solenoid. More likely released factory smoke from starter. Starter doesn't work without the included factory smoke. In other words there is a good chance that the starter has been overheated from attempting to start and burnt the starter windings.
#3
L
Lui_5793
L
Lui_5793
So even with starter being bench tested, it could be bad? I didnt hook up a battery to starter, just used a jump box so I have no idea if that was the right way to do that test. And you are correct, battery is under seat, along with solenoid. Starter was the only thing I could think of when they said there was smoke under hood.Appears the battery may be under the seat therefore the solenoid is next to the battery. Hence smoke under hood not from solenoid. More likely released factory smoke from starter. Starter doesn't work without the included factory smoke. In other words there is a good chance that the starter has been overheated from attempting to start and burnt the starter windings.
#4
StarTech
StarTech
Actually there is a voltage regulator, stator, and a ignition that could have release their magic smoke if the battery was connected backwards. One or all of them.
#5
L
Lui_5793
L
Lui_5793
But would that cause the engine to turn over slowly? With spark plug out, it will turn over but seems as though it is being held from spinning faster. At this point, I already removed the idler pulley below engine that drives the traction belt just to see if something was seized and is pulling the cranking power from the engine/starter. So, right now, engine is just mounted without any restrictions. I can upload a video of what it is doing if need be.
#6
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
A alternator is just an motor working backwards in a simple way
Some JD's actually power the alternator to make it work like a brake
IT is amazing just how much engine braking a stator can produce .
Some JD's actually power the alternator to make it work like a brake
IT is amazing just how much engine braking a stator can produce .
#7
V
VegetiveSteam
If the starter is fried you should be able to smell that. Sniff around the end of the starter where the cable from the solenoid connects. There is usually a very distinct smell. I've had starters sent to me for warranty consideration and as soon as I opened the box it was very evident the starter was fried. My position was pretty much if it stinks it probably isn't going to be warrantied.
I've mentioned this in other threads so it's sort of a go to test for me on an engine that doesn't turn over properly and that is the ground. I've found it to be a fairly common issue and is very easy to check. But first make sure you are getting voltage to the starter when you are trying to start it.
You may need an extra hand for this. If you have a volt meter, set it to DC volts. Attach the black lead of the meter to the negative terminal of the battery. Now touch the red lead to the terminal on the starter where the starter cable connects. Try to start the engine and check for voltage at that connection. If everything is working as it's supposed to, you will probably read 10 volts DC or better. So once you confirm voltage is getting to the starter it's time to check the ground side.
Leaving the black lead of your meter connected to the negative battery terminal, touch the red lead to an unpainted part of the starter body. I typically touch to the drive end housing near the starter mounting bolts. Try to start the engine as normal and see if any voltage shows on the meter. If your meter reads voltage then you need to address ground side of the starting circuit. Typically the issue will be something with the negative battery cable. Maybe loose, dirty or corroded. These OEM cables are normally so small of a gauge that it doesn't take much dirt or corrosion to create an issue. If you read zero voltage the ground side is probably okay.
You still might have a long way to go but this could help eliminate a couple of possibilities.
V
VegetiveSteam
Not sure where you might be on this at this point but the starter could seem to be good being tested with no load on it but could still fail under load.So even with starter being bench tested, it could be bad? I didnt hook up a battery to starter, just used a jump box so I have no idea if that was the right way to do that test. And you are correct, battery is under seat, along with solenoid. Starter was the only thing I could think of when they said there was smoke under hood.
If the starter is fried you should be able to smell that. Sniff around the end of the starter where the cable from the solenoid connects. There is usually a very distinct smell. I've had starters sent to me for warranty consideration and as soon as I opened the box it was very evident the starter was fried. My position was pretty much if it stinks it probably isn't going to be warrantied.
I've mentioned this in other threads so it's sort of a go to test for me on an engine that doesn't turn over properly and that is the ground. I've found it to be a fairly common issue and is very easy to check. But first make sure you are getting voltage to the starter when you are trying to start it.
You may need an extra hand for this. If you have a volt meter, set it to DC volts. Attach the black lead of the meter to the negative terminal of the battery. Now touch the red lead to the terminal on the starter where the starter cable connects. Try to start the engine and check for voltage at that connection. If everything is working as it's supposed to, you will probably read 10 volts DC or better. So once you confirm voltage is getting to the starter it's time to check the ground side.
Leaving the black lead of your meter connected to the negative battery terminal, touch the red lead to an unpainted part of the starter body. I typically touch to the drive end housing near the starter mounting bolts. Try to start the engine as normal and see if any voltage shows on the meter. If your meter reads voltage then you need to address ground side of the starting circuit. Typically the issue will be something with the negative battery cable. Maybe loose, dirty or corroded. These OEM cables are normally so small of a gauge that it doesn't take much dirt or corrosion to create an issue. If you read zero voltage the ground side is probably okay.
You still might have a long way to go but this could help eliminate a couple of possibilities.
#8
L
Lui_5793
L
Lui_5793
I will try this. And that was my exact thoughts on the starter since it was not being used to turn the flywheel, which would be the load. I haven’t checked if battery voltage is present at starter yet but will for sure check. I will update when I have done all listed above. Thanks!Not sure where you might be on this at this point but the starter could seem to be good being tested with no load on it but could still fail under load.
If the starter is fried you should be able to smell that. Sniff around the end of the starter where the cable from the solenoid connects. There is usually a very distinct smell. I've had starters sent to me for warranty consideration and as soon as I opened the box it was very evident the starter was fried. My position was pretty much if it stinks it probably isn't going to be warrantied.
I've mentioned this in other threads so it's sort of a go to test for me on an engine that doesn't turn over properly and that is the ground. I've found it to be a fairly common issue and is very easy to check. But first make sure you are getting voltage to the starter when you are trying to start it.
You may need an extra hand for this. If you have a volt meter, set it to DC volts. Attach the black lead of the meter to the negative terminal of the battery. Now touch the red lead to the terminal on the starter where the starter cable connects. Try to start the engine and check for voltage at that connection. If everything is working as it's supposed to, you will probably read 10 volts DC or better. So once you confirm voltage is getting to the starter it's time to check the ground side.
Leaving the black lead of your meter connected to the negative battery terminal, touch the red lead to an unpainted part of the starter body. I typically touch to the drive end housing near the starter mounting bolts. Try to start the engine as normal and see if any voltage shows on the meter. If your meter reads voltage then you need to address ground side of the starting circuit. Typically the issue will be something with the negative battery cable. Maybe loose, dirty or corroded. These OEM cables are normally so small of a gauge that it doesn't take much dirt or corrosion to create an issue. If you read zero voltage the ground side is probably okay.
You still might have a long way to go but this could help eliminate a couple of possibilities.
#9
L
Lui_5793
L
Lui_5793
so today, I managed to get some time to work on the mower. I first cleaned the ground going to the frame of the mower with sanding paper and installed cable. Installed battery since I had it off just in case the battery wouldn’t drain and checked for battery voltage at starter wire on starter. I have battery voltage so I checked for anything on the ground side. Kept negative lead on negative terminal of battery and positive lead on the starter housing. When starting, I only got about .1v. After doing this however, the mower started to turn over without issue but it’s still slow. The battery reads 11.44v when engine is turning over but engine cranking is slow but might be how it’s is. I have a video of the engine cranking but don’t know how to share it.
#10
L
Lui_5793
L
Lui_5793
Spoke too soon. Engine won’t turn over now, stops at compression and whines from the starter solenoid. I did get a scent of something and checked the starter. The smell is coming right from it and is hot to the touch.so today, I managed to get some time to work on the mower. I first cleaned the ground going to the frame of the mower with sanding paper and installed cable. Installed battery since I had it off just in case the battery wouldn’t drain and checked for battery voltage at starter wire on starter. I have battery voltage so I checked for anything on the ground side. Kept negative lead on negative terminal of battery and positive lead on the starter housing. When starting, I only got about .1v. After doing this however, the mower started to turn over without issue but it’s still slow. The battery reads 11.44v when engine is turning over but engine cranking is slow but might be how it’s is. I have a video of the engine cranking but don’t know how to share it.
#11
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Check the valve lash
Also take the spark plug out and see if the engine cranks over fine
If it spins really quick without the plug but won't crank plug in that shows too much compression.
Also take the spark plug out and see if the engine cranks over fine
If it spins really quick without the plug but won't crank plug in that shows too much compression.
#12
L
Lui_5793
L
Lui_5793
This was all with the spark plug in. I did it before with it out and it spun over but turn over speed stayed the same. Engine also sounds as if something was dragging it from going any faster, which I do have traction belt removed so that eliminates any restrictions. This was before I tore into the engine and I can’t remember if I adjusted the valves after putting it all back together but I will do that next and see if there is any change. I’m sure I’m doing it right but how would I go about adjusting the valves CORRECTLY? I’ve seen people do it with both valves closed and others do it when one valve is closed and another is fully open.Check the valve lash
Also take the spark plug out and see if the engine cranks over fine
If it spins really quick without the plug but won't crank plug in that shows too much compression.
#13
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Cranks slow plug in & plug out = bad starter or tight engine
Bring your car / truck within jumper lead range .
Hook the + to the power cable where it goes into the starter motor as you probably have a shift starter ( solenoid is on the side of the starter )
Then connect the - to a good ground like the engine lift hook
The engine should crank fast
IF it does then you battery or connections or solenoid are bad
If not then the starter is bad
Bring your car / truck within jumper lead range .
Hook the + to the power cable where it goes into the starter motor as you probably have a shift starter ( solenoid is on the side of the starter )
Then connect the - to a good ground like the engine lift hook
The engine should crank fast
IF it does then you battery or connections or solenoid are bad
If not then the starter is bad
#14
L
Lui_5793
L
Lui_5793
Starter solenoid is underneath the seat. Starter has only the hot wire to starter post. Should still work ?Cranks slow plug in & plug out = bad starter or tight engine
Bring your car / truck within jumper lead range .
Hook the + to the power cable where it goes into the starter motor as you probably have a shift starter ( solenoid is on the side of the starter )
Then connect the - to a good ground like the engine lift hook
The engine should crank fast
IF it does then you battery or connections or solenoid are bad
If not then the starter is bad
#15
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
YEs
Do the + first to where the + wire bolts onto the starter motor
Be careful that the clip is only on the nut & not touching the body with is ground .
Then connect the battery - followed by touching it to the engine
You will get a BIG spark as it is pulling a lot of amps
Let us know how it goes
Do not connect to the battery last because the big sparks can melt the lead battery terminals
Do the + first to where the + wire bolts onto the starter motor
Be careful that the clip is only on the nut & not touching the body with is ground .
Then connect the battery - followed by touching it to the engine
You will get a BIG spark as it is pulling a lot of amps
Let us know how it goes
Do not connect to the battery last because the big sparks can melt the lead battery terminals
#16
L
Lui_5793
Then connect car battery negative to engine hook
Correct ?
L
Lui_5793
Okay, so first connect car battery positive to positive starter post.YEs
Do the + first to where the + wire bolts onto the starter motor
Be careful that the clip is only on the nut & not touching the body with is ground .
Then connect the battery - followed by touching it to the engine
You will get a BIG spark as it is pulling a lot of amps
Let us know how it goes
Do not connect to the battery last because the big sparks can melt the lead battery terminals
Then connect car battery negative to engine hook
Correct ?
#17
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Yes and be preparred for an arc welder sized spark which is why there is a solenoid in there in the first place
Connecting the ground - last means that if you slip & touch some thing else you will not short your vehicles battery
I use the same proceedure to check the mowers + & - battery leads
Connecting the ground - last means that if you slip & touch some thing else you will not short your vehicles battery
I use the same proceedure to check the mowers + & - battery leads
#18
L
Lui_5793
L
Lui_5793
would using the mower battery not in mower and having the jumper cables connected to it work as well or does it have to be a car battery? Would that just defeat the purpose of using the mower battery ?Yes and be preparred for an arc welder sized spark which is why there is a solenoid in there in the first place
Connecting the ground - last means that if you slip & touch some thing else you will not short your vehicles battery
I use the same proceedure to check the mowers + & - battery leads
#19
L
Lui_5793
L
Lui_5793
so I got my test results:I did check valve clearance and from what the manual for the mower states, lash should be around .004-.006 so I went with .005 and checked. Both valves had some drag to them but other than that, they were not tight nor loose. I started to jump the mower with the battery it currently has, engine turned over slow. I then brought my truck and repeated the process, same result. I could also smell the starter, like a plastic melting smell. Guess the starter is the issue ?
#20
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Did you try it plugs in and plugs out ?
If it is slow both ways then either the engine has a partial seizure or the starter is kaput
If you can put your palm on the debris screen on the debris screen & rotate the engine then the only thing left is the starter .
If it is slow both ways then either the engine has a partial seizure or the starter is kaput
If you can put your palm on the debris screen on the debris screen & rotate the engine then the only thing left is the starter .
#21
Tiger Small Engine
Tiger Small Engine
Working on a Briggs 31P677 right now with starter problem. Customer replaced starter with one that has 14 teeth on gear, and needs one that has 16 teeth, so gear keeps hanging in flywheel. Odd thing is it turns over fine with no spark plug, but turns a quarter turn with spark plug in and stops. Valves just adjusted. It’s always something…Did you try it plugs in and plugs out ?
If it is slow both ways then either the engine has a partial seizure or the starter is kaput
If you can put your palm on the debris screen on the debris screen & rotate the engine then the only thing left is the starter .
#22
L
Lui_5793
L
Lui_5793
Just with plug in. After work today I will try with plug out.
Engine did turn over but when it was as compression stroke, the starter would not be able to turn the engine. I had to turn the engine manually to get it out of compression stroke and once I jumped the starter again, it would turn over. Once at compression stroke and jumping starter, you can hear it engage but it would barely move the flywheel. I would keep touch ground and it would just nudge the flywheel.
Engine did turn over but when it was as compression stroke, the starter would not be able to turn the engine. I had to turn the engine manually to get it out of compression stroke and once I jumped the starter again, it would turn over. Once at compression stroke and jumping starter, you can hear it engage but it would barely move the flywheel. I would keep touch ground and it would just nudge the flywheel.
#23
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
That really sounds like a decompression problem
Forcing starters to turn over engines they can not will burn out the starter motor
When the individual windings are powered, they are a direct short .
There is nothing between the + & - but a few yards of wire so when the starter stalls a lot of amps flow through that short which generates a lot of heat which does a lot of damage
Forcing starters to turn over engines they can not will burn out the starter motor
When the individual windings are powered, they are a direct short .
There is nothing between the + & - but a few yards of wire so when the starter stalls a lot of amps flow through that short which generates a lot of heat which does a lot of damage
#24
L
Lui_5793
L
Lui_5793
So what do you think the issue could be ? New starter ?That really sounds like a decompression problem
Forcing starters to turn over engines they can not will burn out the starter motor
When the individual windings are powered, they are a direct short .
There is nothing between the + & - but a few yards of wire so when the starter stalls a lot of amps flow through that short which generates a lot of heat which does a lot of damage
#25
L
Lui_5793
L
Lui_5793
I haven’t been able to test the mower with plug out today cause of rain and have no cover to do the tests.So what do you think the issue could be ? New starter ?
#26
Tiger Small Engine
Tiger Small Engine
What Bertsmobile is trying to say, is internally on the cam, the compression release mechanism may be broken. If that is the case, it requires removing engine and opening it up to replace part. You need to remove valve cover and watch very closely for “bump” on valve. Sometimes it is on exhaust and sometimes on intake. If you need more details, let us know.I haven’t been able to test the mower with plug out today cause of rain and have no cover to do the tests.
#27
L
Lui_5793
L
Lui_5793
I got a chance to test mower with both plug in and out of mower. In mower, it can’t get passed the compression stroke unless I physically move it out of that stroke, then it has no issue turning over aside from turning over slowly and once you let the ground jumper off ground and back on, starter doesn’t do anything but try to engage. Once plug is out, it turns over without any issue but starter sounds rough either way and spins somewhat faster but not by much. And before we jump to the ACR, I already have taken the engine apart and found that it was still intact and the valves do jump which mean it is working. Trust me, when I first saw the symptom of the engine turning over and stopping at the compression stroke, that was my go to. I also had a tech at a shop I work at look at the cam and he says it looks fine and the compression release mechanism doesn’t seem to be seized up by any means. He also referenced to the bump in the valves which I never knew about until he told me. With plug in, I held the ground jumper longer on a bolt on the frame just to see if it would eventually get past compression but starter never budged.