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HRR216VLA warning
#1
B
Boit4852
B
Boit4852
I want to share info on this model. It's an electric start model that I bout as gift for my sweetheart. What I didn't realize was that this model has no throttle control. Yep. You start it cold and it goes right to full engine speed. I had no idea that Honda would build ANY machine without a throttle. Really Honda??? Most of us know that 90% of engine wear occurs upon start-up. Having the engine start cold and immediatelty go to full speed accelerates that wear. I should have looked much more closely at this model's specs before I bought. Shame on me and Honda.
#2
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Please show some respect to the intellegence of the readers.
The engine does not go to full throttle.
It goes to high idle as dose every other mower engine since about 1970 when they all became governed.
If it really urks you the pull the starter 20 times with the mower turned off.
It is a lawn mower, not a 16 cylinder race engine.
The engine does not go to full throttle.
It goes to high idle as dose every other mower engine since about 1970 when they all became governed.
If it really urks you the pull the starter 20 times with the mower turned off.
It is a lawn mower, not a 16 cylinder race engine.
#3
I
ILENGINE
I
ILENGINE
And you can blame the no throttle cable on the EPA because the no adjustable throttle engines came about in the early 2000's due to tier 1 emissions if I remember correctly. When it first happened the biggest complaint I received from customers was no throttle cable ,and they would try to add a throttle cable, but found the engine would not run properly at a lower than governed engine speed.
This took place because it was easier for the engine manufacturers to meet emissions standards with a single speed engine since the engine only has to meet emission standards at that speed. If it has a throttle cable, then the engine has to meet emissions standards from idle to full engine speed. Also the second effect of this was since the engine only has to run at one speed the idle circuit of the carb was removed and created a single jet carb which is the reason that will not run properly at less than the governed engine speed.
This took place because it was easier for the engine manufacturers to meet emissions standards with a single speed engine since the engine only has to meet emission standards at that speed. If it has a throttle cable, then the engine has to meet emissions standards from idle to full engine speed. Also the second effect of this was since the engine only has to run at one speed the idle circuit of the carb was removed and created a single jet carb which is the reason that will not run properly at less than the governed engine speed.
#4
D
Darryl G
D
Darryl G
Some of the older Honda 21 inchers had 2 throttle settings, Tortoise and Hare. That created confusion with people trying to mow in Tortoise mode because everyone knows that the Tortoise wins the race.
#5
T
tadawson
T
tadawson
This is one of the reasons I just rebuilt my HR215 . . . . I will *NOT* buy any OPE that subscribes to this stupidity! I looked at new Hondas, and to get an actual throttle, metal deck, GXV engine, ball bearing wheels, blade brake, etc. (as I enjoy on the HR215), I would be into the HRC216 commercial line at over $1200! A couple hundred to refresh the HR215 (included engine rebuild as well) and I am far better off for much less, and should be good for another 25+ years . . .
#6
gotomow
gotomow
My new Simplicity snowblower has a throttle control. Wonder why snowblowers can have them? I'm thinking that cost is the main reason Honda discontinued throttle controls on their mowers. A dollar here and a dollar there adds to their bottom line.
#7
T
tadawson
The Honda HRC commercial line still does. I suspect that a combination of $$$ and the lesser GCV engines is the factor, not any regulation per-se.
T
tadawson
My new Simplicity snowblower has a throttle control. Wonder why snowblowers can have them? I'm thinking that cost is the main reason Honda discontinued throttle controls on their mowers. A dollar here and a dollar there adds to their bottom line.
The Honda HRC commercial line still does. I suspect that a combination of $$$ and the lesser GCV engines is the factor, not any regulation per-se.
#8
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
we who repair mowers and in my case tries to get 100 year old motorcycles know just how hard it is to tune an engine so it simply runs, let alone runs between a very fine pair of emission limits.
When it comes to mowers, they are required to run at a set ( Governed ) speed.
There is no reason to ever run them slower than this speed.
The shape of the blades, the shape of the deck and the speed of the blades are all matched to work together efficiently.
Add to that product liability means that mower companies get sued if you open the discharge chute with the engine running at full speed and a rock or stick flies out & hits you.
So the domestic models for the idiot stupid brain dead average mug pushing a mower over their grass with their mind 1,000,000 miles away have 2 speeds, full & off.
Thus to remove the catcher you have to turn the mower off.
Professionals have their mind on the job.
They watch what they are doing and understand fully what is going on.
They also empty the catcher 20 times a day.
They will recognise a patch of sandy soil that needs to be mowed at a slower speed .
Add to that, professionals are covered by workers compensation insurance and are less likely to do something bone stupid, injur themselves then sue the mowr company because their own stupidity has caused them a financial loss.
So there are two types of villians that cause this to happen
1) Beauricrats making legislations for the purpose of pretending to be doing their job ( Most EPA )
2) Lawers getting massive payments for people who in reaity should be admonished for their own stupidity & be compensating every one else for their cost to the community.
When it comes to mowers, they are required to run at a set ( Governed ) speed.
There is no reason to ever run them slower than this speed.
The shape of the blades, the shape of the deck and the speed of the blades are all matched to work together efficiently.
Add to that product liability means that mower companies get sued if you open the discharge chute with the engine running at full speed and a rock or stick flies out & hits you.
So the domestic models for the idiot stupid brain dead average mug pushing a mower over their grass with their mind 1,000,000 miles away have 2 speeds, full & off.
Thus to remove the catcher you have to turn the mower off.
Professionals have their mind on the job.
They watch what they are doing and understand fully what is going on.
They also empty the catcher 20 times a day.
They will recognise a patch of sandy soil that needs to be mowed at a slower speed .
Add to that, professionals are covered by workers compensation insurance and are less likely to do something bone stupid, injur themselves then sue the mowr company because their own stupidity has caused them a financial loss.
So there are two types of villians that cause this to happen
1) Beauricrats making legislations for the purpose of pretending to be doing their job ( Most EPA )
2) Lawers getting massive payments for people who in reaity should be admonished for their own stupidity & be compensating every one else for their cost to the community.
#9
gotomow
Hmmm.... But what about my snowblower? It's also required to run at full throttle. The reason for having it is to be able to throttle down to do something like move a stick, frozen newspaper, etc then throttle back up and move that EOD pile of snow. So I still feel the overwhelming reason is cost, cost, cost.
gotomow
we who repair mowers and in my case tries to get 100 year old motorcycles know just how hard it is to tune an engine so it simply runs, let alone runs between a very fine pair of emission limits.
When it comes to mowers, they are required to run at a set ( Governed ) speed.
There is no reason to ever run them slower than this speed.
The shape of the blades, the shape of the deck and the speed of the blades are all matched to work together efficiently.
Add to that product liability means that mower companies get sued if you open the discharge chute with the engine running at full speed and a rock or stick flies out & hits you.
So the domestic models for the idiot stupid brain dead average mug pushing a mower over their grass with their mind 1,000,000 miles away have 2 speeds, full & off.
Thus to remove the catcher you have to turn the mower off.
Professionals have their mind on the job.
They watch what they are doing and understand fully what is going on.
They also empty the catcher 20 times a day.
They will recognise a patch of sandy soil that needs to be mowed at a slower speed .
Add to that, professionals are covered by workers compensation insurance and are less likely to do something bone stupid, injur themselves then sue the mowr company because their own stupidity has caused them a financial loss.
So there are two types of villians that cause this to happen
1) Beauricrats making legislations for the purpose of pretending to be doing their job ( Most EPA )
2) Lawers getting massive payments for people who in reaity should be admonished for their own stupidity & be compensating every one else for their cost to the community.
Hmmm.... But what about my snowblower? It's also required to run at full throttle. The reason for having it is to be able to throttle down to do something like move a stick, frozen newspaper, etc then throttle back up and move that EOD pile of snow. So I still feel the overwhelming reason is cost, cost, cost.
#10
gotomow
gotomow
Honda is very conscious of their cost per machine for any given machine within a category. Take for example their high end snowblowers. At over $3000 one would think they would include handwarmers on such an expensive machine. Handwarmers are found on many less expensive machines. Well nope, that would be a no.
#11
B
Boit4852
You can call it fast idle if you like but it immediately goes to full speed whether cold or not. I want to be able to control the engine speed with a throttle. Their HRX line of commercial mowers have throttles. Whether it's a race engine or mower engine matters not when it comes to cold startup wear. And yes, I have instructed my sweetheart to pull the starter rope a few times before she opens the gas valve.
B
Boit4852
Please show some respect to the intellegence of the readers.
The engine does not go to full throttle.
It goes to high idle as dose every other mower engine since about 1970 when they all became governed.
If it really urks you the pull the starter 20 times with the mower turned off.
It is a lawn mower, not a 16 cylinder race engine.
You can call it fast idle if you like but it immediately goes to full speed whether cold or not. I want to be able to control the engine speed with a throttle. Their HRX line of commercial mowers have throttles. Whether it's a race engine or mower engine matters not when it comes to cold startup wear. And yes, I have instructed my sweetheart to pull the starter rope a few times before she opens the gas valve.
#12
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
So where is the throttle butterfly when you crank any mower engine with a single control wire made in the last 30 years ?
WIDE OPEN
And on all of them the throttle has to go to WFO then on a bit further to engage the choke if it has a manual choke.
And that is from every factory, Honda, Briggs ,Kohler, Kawasaki,Suzuki, Loncin, Ducar.
All of them start with the throttle WFO
And this is for ride ons and walk behinds
As for thinking the engine will wear out prematurely because it starts up at full speed, you have been watching way to much TV.
Engine wear per minute can be highest during the 5 minutes of start up but it is the wear that happens in the 20 minutes of mowing running way too lean that does the damage.
In fact I doubt that many people would actually run the mower for more than 1 minute before actually mowing.
The next thing to consider is HOW THE OIL IS CIRCULATED.
If the mower has both an oil pump and a hollow crank shaft with oil outlets for the top, bottom & conrod bush then running the engine at a lower speed may reduce wear.
However wear is also SPEED related and an engine running slowly on a dry bore will wear more than an engine running quickly on a dry bore . it is all about load.
However most push mower engines have splash lubrication so if the engine is warmed up slowly then you will be starving the the top end and in particular the little end bearing for oil.
For oil to get to the little end it has to be picked up by the dipper then flung right up into the underside of the piston, fill the lubrication well then drip down into the little end.
The faster the engine is reving the more oil will be splashed around inside and the more oil will get to the underside of the piston.
Run your engine, just off stoping speed for a tank full of fuel and there is a very good chance you will sieze the engine.
WIDE OPEN
And on all of them the throttle has to go to WFO then on a bit further to engage the choke if it has a manual choke.
And that is from every factory, Honda, Briggs ,Kohler, Kawasaki,Suzuki, Loncin, Ducar.
All of them start with the throttle WFO
And this is for ride ons and walk behinds
As for thinking the engine will wear out prematurely because it starts up at full speed, you have been watching way to much TV.
Engine wear per minute can be highest during the 5 minutes of start up but it is the wear that happens in the 20 minutes of mowing running way too lean that does the damage.
In fact I doubt that many people would actually run the mower for more than 1 minute before actually mowing.
The next thing to consider is HOW THE OIL IS CIRCULATED.
If the mower has both an oil pump and a hollow crank shaft with oil outlets for the top, bottom & conrod bush then running the engine at a lower speed may reduce wear.
However wear is also SPEED related and an engine running slowly on a dry bore will wear more than an engine running quickly on a dry bore . it is all about load.
However most push mower engines have splash lubrication so if the engine is warmed up slowly then you will be starving the the top end and in particular the little end bearing for oil.
For oil to get to the little end it has to be picked up by the dipper then flung right up into the underside of the piston, fill the lubrication well then drip down into the little end.
The faster the engine is reving the more oil will be splashed around inside and the more oil will get to the underside of the piston.
Run your engine, just off stoping speed for a tank full of fuel and there is a very good chance you will sieze the engine.
#13
B
Boit4852
B
Boit4852
Please show some respect to the intellegence of the readers.
The engine does not go to full throttle.
It goes to high idle as dose every other mower engine since about 1970 when they all became governed.
If it really urks you the pull the starter 20 times with the mower turned off.
It is a lawn mower, not a 16 cylinder race engine.[/QUOTE
Mowers without manual throttle controls certainly are governed to prevent over revving, but these engines go to full speed immediately upon starting. This post was meant to alert possible buyers of this model that it has no user controlled throttle. It might be a non-issue for some but important for others.
#14
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Please show some respect to the intellegence of the readers.
The engine does not go to full throttle.
It goes to high idle as dose every other mower engine since about 1970 when they all became governed.
If it really urks you the pull the starter 20 times with the mower turned off.
It is a lawn mower, not a 16 cylinder race engine.[/QUOTE
Mowers without manual throttle controls certainly are governed to prevent over revving, but these engines go to full speed immediately upon starting. This post was meant to alert possible buyers of this model that it has no user controlled throttle. It might be a non-issue for some but important for others.
In time all domestic mowers will be like that.
I see more with a combined throttle , cut out and brake bail every year.
All of the store branded mowers are like that down here right now
#15
C
cruzenmike
C
cruzenmike
Look on the other side of this too; there are still home owners that continue to operate riding mowers at anything other than full throttle. It would certainly make sense for a riding mower to have the ability to throttle down as it might sit while a trailer is being loaded up. But the plain and simple fact is that there are people out there that cut their grass at half throttle and state that "it feels as if it has enough power" while all along they are just cooking up the fluid in their transmissions.
All of this comes down to people not knowing how to properly operate their machine. For those things related to the EPA and emissions, well, we have little impact on how it goes. At the end of the day, if you don't like what Honda did on their mower, go buy a $1200 commercial 21" so that you can feel good about throttling down whenever you want. By the way, you could just shut the machine off and restart again. Hundreds of hours on my HRX stopping the engine to pick up a stick, or pile of dog droppings or to empty the bag (12 times a cut usually) and guess what, it still ran just fine. And the gas you would save throttling down for 30 seconds here and there is negligible.
All of this comes down to people not knowing how to properly operate their machine. For those things related to the EPA and emissions, well, we have little impact on how it goes. At the end of the day, if you don't like what Honda did on their mower, go buy a $1200 commercial 21" so that you can feel good about throttling down whenever you want. By the way, you could just shut the machine off and restart again. Hundreds of hours on my HRX stopping the engine to pick up a stick, or pile of dog droppings or to empty the bag (12 times a cut usually) and guess what, it still ran just fine. And the gas you would save throttling down for 30 seconds here and there is negligible.
#16
tom3
tom3
I don't know about all this. I hear a lot of riding mowers start up around here and they do go to full throttle for a few seconds until the governor reacts and the rider throttles it down, sounds like crap and can't be good on a cold engine I think. But these riders are throw-aways anyway so I guess it really doesn't make much difference.
#17
gotomow
gotomow
From the owners manual of my soon to be mine John Deere X350:
"Avoid damage! Unnecessary engine idling may cause engine damage. Excessive idling can cause engine overheating, carbon build-up, and poor performance.
Run engine at half throttle for 30-60 seconds to allow warm-up before operating."
"Avoid damage! Unnecessary engine idling may cause engine damage. Excessive idling can cause engine overheating, carbon build-up, and poor performance.
Run engine at half throttle for 30-60 seconds to allow warm-up before operating."
#18
C
cruzenmike
There is no such thing as a "HRX line of commercial" mowers in the US here. The HRC is the only commercial line of mowers that Honda offers. There are variations of the HRX that offer a throttle selector, in which those models also have either a BBC and/or Hydrostatic transmissions, both of which are "premium" features in the HRX lineup. These mowers likely also have different carburetors due to reasons stated by other users in earlier posts. Since you have the HRR which is just above the HRS, but still below the HRX and HRC lines of mowers, you basically got what you paid for!
In once paid $26k for a new car that didn't have an armrest/cup holder in the back seat for my kids to put their drinks in. I didn't complain about it or rag on Subaru for making the car that way, I just sold it a bought a Chevy!
You certainly have options here my friend. It is just a lawn mower and regardless of your concerns, it's a Honda and will likely last you many, many years; cold, full throttle starts and all.
C
cruzenmike
You can call it fast idle if you like but it immediately goes to full speed whether cold or not. I want to be able to control the engine speed with a throttle. Their HRX line of commercial mowers have throttles. Whether it's a race engine or mower engine matters not when it comes to cold startup wear. And yes, I have instructed my sweetheart to pull the starter rope a few times before she opens the gas valve.
There is no such thing as a "HRX line of commercial" mowers in the US here. The HRC is the only commercial line of mowers that Honda offers. There are variations of the HRX that offer a throttle selector, in which those models also have either a BBC and/or Hydrostatic transmissions, both of which are "premium" features in the HRX lineup. These mowers likely also have different carburetors due to reasons stated by other users in earlier posts. Since you have the HRR which is just above the HRS, but still below the HRX and HRC lines of mowers, you basically got what you paid for!
In once paid $26k for a new car that didn't have an armrest/cup holder in the back seat for my kids to put their drinks in. I didn't complain about it or rag on Subaru for making the car that way, I just sold it a bought a Chevy!
You certainly have options here my friend. It is just a lawn mower and regardless of your concerns, it's a Honda and will likely last you many, many years; cold, full throttle starts and all.
#19
C
cruzenmike
This would be correct in your case; should you get the X350. I applaud you for reading the user's manual and hope that you follow the recommendations in there. With all equipment, there is never too much that you could know about your machine. Too many people neglect to read the documentation that comes with their equipment. In the case of the John Deere, which this is the same recommendations for the Briggs equipped X330, they have determined that the procedure you referenced is either the most appropriate to ensure a positive user experience.
C
cruzenmike
From the owners manual of my soon to be mine John Deere X350:
"Avoid damage! Unnecessary engine idling may cause engine damage. Excessive idling can cause engine overheating, carbon build-up, and poor performance.
Run engine at half throttle for 30-60 seconds to allow warm-up before operating."
This would be correct in your case; should you get the X350. I applaud you for reading the user's manual and hope that you follow the recommendations in there. With all equipment, there is never too much that you could know about your machine. Too many people neglect to read the documentation that comes with their equipment. In the case of the John Deere, which this is the same recommendations for the Briggs equipped X330, they have determined that the procedure you referenced is either the most appropriate to ensure a positive user experience.
#20
B
bertsmobile1
The engine in your JD has FULL PRESSURE LUBRICATION so it has a hollow crank and internals that are lubricated by the pump.
The Honda is splash.
B
bertsmobile1
From the owners manual of my soon to be mine John Deere X350:
"Avoid damage! Unnecessary engine idling may cause engine damage. Excessive idling can cause engine overheating, carbon build-up, and poor performance.
Run engine at half throttle for 30-60 seconds to allow warm-up before operating."
The engine in your JD has FULL PRESSURE LUBRICATION so it has a hollow crank and internals that are lubricated by the pump.
The Honda is splash.
#21
R
Roymg
I'm with bertsmobile 1 on the throttle issue. It cranks at full throttle which is better explained below as to why.
R
Roymg
Please show some respect to the intellegence of the readers.
The engine does not go to full throttle.
It goes to high idle as dose every other mower engine since about 1970 when they all became governed.
If it really urks you the pull the starter 20 times with the mower turned off.
It is a lawn mower, not a 16 cylinder race engine.
I'm with bertsmobile 1 on the throttle issue. It cranks at full throttle which is better explained below as to why.