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Honda HRM 215: left back wheel doesn't rotate freely !! Help !
#1
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Hi All,
I have a 20 year old HRM 215K3 SDA MZBB 6434438 that I removed the belt from 15 years ago do to the self propulsion malfunction. I've been using it as a PUSH mower ever since then. Lately, I get a chirping that sounds (without engine running) like it's coming from the wheels (worn bearings ?). In addition, the left rear wheel seems to bind up and sporadically won't turn freely. And then it will suddenly rotate freely for awhile and then hang up again.
Any thoughts/diagnosis/solutions/suggestions as to how to proceed ? I have not removed the rear wheel yet, as I'm waiting for snap ring pliers to arrive from Amazon. I know they'll be needed to do any in depth disassembly. Can you help out an old guy ?
Thanks,
John
I have a 20 year old HRM 215K3 SDA MZBB 6434438 that I removed the belt from 15 years ago do to the self propulsion malfunction. I've been using it as a PUSH mower ever since then. Lately, I get a chirping that sounds (without engine running) like it's coming from the wheels (worn bearings ?). In addition, the left rear wheel seems to bind up and sporadically won't turn freely. And then it will suddenly rotate freely for awhile and then hang up again.
Any thoughts/diagnosis/solutions/suggestions as to how to proceed ? I have not removed the rear wheel yet, as I'm waiting for snap ring pliers to arrive from Amazon. I know they'll be needed to do any in depth disassembly. Can you help out an old guy ?
Thanks,
John
#2
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Fibber2
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Fibber2
I'm not familiar with your model, but assuming the drive mechanism is similar to the modern units I'd proceed as follows:
The rear mounted transmission routes power to the rear wheels thru a gear reduction system located inside each rear wheel. With snap ring pliers remove the retainer on the tranny shaft, and remove the small gear. That gear has an internal 'one way clutch' that is likely dry as a bone and no longer moving freely. There's a spring loaded woodruff key in there that likely isn't retracting as it should. Even when it moves, you are encountering unnecessary friction. With that connection out of the way, you only have the ball bearing assembly of the wheel riding on the shoulder bolts. Work some heavy oil into the ball bearings (they aren't sealed) to ensure they move smoothly and reassemble. A little grease on the shoulder bolt to wheel bearing interface is also a good idea. Helps make it come apart easier, and allows some slip should the wheel bearings be bad as well.
The rear mounted transmission routes power to the rear wheels thru a gear reduction system located inside each rear wheel. With snap ring pliers remove the retainer on the tranny shaft, and remove the small gear. That gear has an internal 'one way clutch' that is likely dry as a bone and no longer moving freely. There's a spring loaded woodruff key in there that likely isn't retracting as it should. Even when it moves, you are encountering unnecessary friction. With that connection out of the way, you only have the ball bearing assembly of the wheel riding on the shoulder bolts. Work some heavy oil into the ball bearings (they aren't sealed) to ensure they move smoothly and reassemble. A little grease on the shoulder bolt to wheel bearing interface is also a good idea. Helps make it come apart easier, and allows some slip should the wheel bearings be bad as well.
#3
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Fibber,
Thanks for the response....In terms of greasing, any suggestions as to what best to use ? I have 30 weight oil, white lithium spray grease, or heavy bearing grease.
Question as to where to apply the lubricant ? There's a round sleeve within the wheel that the axle goes into. I'm assuming that' one location you're suggesting to lubricate along with the woodruff. Any other specific locations ?
Thanks again for the help. Much appreciated.
John
Thanks for the response....In terms of greasing, any suggestions as to what best to use ? I have 30 weight oil, white lithium spray grease, or heavy bearing grease.
Question as to where to apply the lubricant ? There's a round sleeve within the wheel that the axle goes into. I'm assuming that' one location you're suggesting to lubricate along with the woodruff. Any other specific locations ?
Thanks again for the help. Much appreciated.
John
#4
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Fibber2
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Fibber2
Remember that we are making the rash assumption that your's is the same as mine!
When you remove the 'C' clip and the pinion gear, the woodruff key will become a non-issue. Toss it too, as your goal is to make this a manual push with no resistance from legacy hardware.
My experience with lithium greases is that they dry out. Wheel bearing grease should be fine, but keep the coat light. The really heavy greases (I once made the mistake of using Husquvarna gear box grease!) can seem like you've used glue. I've also thinned grease with a tiny amt of light lube like a penetrating oil. Probably NOT the recommended procedure, but it works!
The round sleeve in the wheel that the shaft passes thru is either a sleeve bearing (cheap mowers) and that's what spins on the axle, or it's the interface between the axle and the wheel with a set of ball bearings hidden in there. If you can spin that sleeve within the wheel, you've got ball bearings hidden in there. You'll likely be able to induce some motor oil or similar heavy lube to pass between the outside of the sleeve and the wheel to lubricate those bearings. Wipe it down well first, and you should see a tiny gap for getting some oil in.
When you remove the 'C' clip and the pinion gear, the woodruff key will become a non-issue. Toss it too, as your goal is to make this a manual push with no resistance from legacy hardware.
My experience with lithium greases is that they dry out. Wheel bearing grease should be fine, but keep the coat light. The really heavy greases (I once made the mistake of using Husquvarna gear box grease!) can seem like you've used glue. I've also thinned grease with a tiny amt of light lube like a penetrating oil. Probably NOT the recommended procedure, but it works!
The round sleeve in the wheel that the shaft passes thru is either a sleeve bearing (cheap mowers) and that's what spins on the axle, or it's the interface between the axle and the wheel with a set of ball bearings hidden in there. If you can spin that sleeve within the wheel, you've got ball bearings hidden in there. You'll likely be able to induce some motor oil or similar heavy lube to pass between the outside of the sleeve and the wheel to lubricate those bearings. Wipe it down well first, and you should see a tiny gap for getting some oil in.
#5
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bertsmobile1
Because it is very dusty you need a dry lubricant.
Honda recommend the wheels being lubed every season but that requires one to do the impossible,,, RTFM.
I use dry lithium spray.
The 18 commercial contractors in my service area also use the same as they buy it from me, about 1 can every year or two.
You can also use graphite powder. Teflon flakes and a lot of stuff you will fine ad push bike shops, but none of it will be cheap enough for the average mower owner.
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bertsmobile1
Remember that we are making the rash assumption that your's is the same as mine!
When you remove the 'C' clip and the pinion gear, the woodruff key will become a non-issue. Toss it too, as your goal is to make this a manual push with no resistance from legacy hardware.
My experience with lithium greases is that they dry out. Wheel bearing grease should be fine, but keep the coat light. The really heavy greases (I once made the mistake of using Husquvarna gear box grease!) can seem like you've used glue. I've also thinned grease with a tiny amt of light lube like a penetrating oil. Probably NOT the recommended procedure, but it works!
The round sleeve in the wheel that the shaft passes thru is either a sleeve bearing (cheap mowers) and that's what spins on the axle, or it's the interface between the axle and the wheel with a set of ball bearings hidden in there. If you can spin that sleeve within the wheel, you've got ball bearings hidden in there. You'll likely be able to induce some motor oil or similar heavy lube to pass between the outside of the sleeve and the wheel to lubricate those bearings. Wipe it down well first, and you should see a tiny gap for getting some oil in.
Because it is very dusty you need a dry lubricant.
Honda recommend the wheels being lubed every season but that requires one to do the impossible,,, RTFM.
I use dry lithium spray.
The 18 commercial contractors in my service area also use the same as they buy it from me, about 1 can every year or two.
You can also use graphite powder. Teflon flakes and a lot of stuff you will fine ad push bike shops, but none of it will be cheap enough for the average mower owner.
#6
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Bert,
Thanks for the response.....I followed Fibber's suggestions and used motor oil for the race and applied axle grease between the axle and the metal sleeve. Had I received your note earlier, I would have tried the graphite. The wheels have a metal sleeve in the center that the axle passes thru. There appears to be a race that the metal sleeves fit/pressed into that I guess contains bearings. A few questions: How are you suggesting that I lubricate the race and the axle ? Is it the dry lithium spray ? And, how do you suggest I get the dry lithium down into the race that surrounds the metal sleeves.
Please advise.
Thanks John
Thanks for the response.....I followed Fibber's suggestions and used motor oil for the race and applied axle grease between the axle and the metal sleeve. Had I received your note earlier, I would have tried the graphite. The wheels have a metal sleeve in the center that the axle passes thru. There appears to be a race that the metal sleeves fit/pressed into that I guess contains bearings. A few questions: How are you suggesting that I lubricate the race and the axle ? Is it the dry lithium spray ? And, how do you suggest I get the dry lithium down into the race that surrounds the metal sleeves.
Please advise.
Thanks John
#7
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bertsmobile1
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bertsmobile1
I Use a spray tube on the end of the can which will force the lube through tiny cracks.
If you search Rear Wheel locking or won't reverse or won't pull back on the honda section of this site you will find a wealth of detailed instructions, including Honda service sheets and all sorts of goddies.
Probably 1/3 of all the posts on the Hond section are about rear wheels locking up.
All due to lack of proper maintenance.
If you search Rear Wheel locking or won't reverse or won't pull back on the honda section of this site you will find a wealth of detailed instructions, including Honda service sheets and all sorts of goddies.
Probably 1/3 of all the posts on the Hond section are about rear wheels locking up.
All due to lack of proper maintenance.
#9
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Fibber2
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Fibber2
As an engineer, my gut feeling is to trust the judgement of my fellow engineers - the guys that designed and built this mechanism. They might not be always perfect, but I believe they know what they are doing. So when they said grease, they probably meant grease. If you deviate, you do so at your own risk. The bushings on both sides of the pinion, when combined with sufficient grease, seem to hold a reasonable seal and keep dirt out. I don't believe a dry lube would protect the spring loaded woodruff key, key slot, and inner eccentric mechanism as well as a light wet lube. But hey, that's just my feeling on this. Do as you see fit.
For this application, I used Park Tools Polylube 1000 - the same stuff that protects the small bearings on my bicycles and other systems that call for a high shear strength light grease.
True, the exposed gear teeth might benefit from a dryer lube to keep from attracting too much fine dirt, but the one-way drive mechanism should be lubed as prescribed.
For this application, I used Park Tools Polylube 1000 - the same stuff that protects the small bearings on my bicycles and other systems that call for a high shear strength light grease.
True, the exposed gear teeth might benefit from a dryer lube to keep from attracting too much fine dirt, but the one-way drive mechanism should be lubed as prescribed.
#10
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Fibber,
I did as you described in you earlier post. I removed the snap rings and pinion gears, woodruff, etc., as you suggested. It sure is easier now using it as a push mower.
I applied a small amount of axle grease to the axle. For the bearing race, I sprayed WD40 several times to try and clean the internal bearings and then carefully used motor oil between the race and the metal sleeves. I no longer hear the chirping and the back wheel binding is gone. I'll check out you suggested "Polylube".
My Honda just keeps on running. Wife says I bought it new in 93. The tires are completely bald and it's not the prettiest, yet still does it job. Before that, I had a LawnBoy which only lasted a few years. It had a side discharge/bagger which complicated things going around trees, flower beds, etc. But, this Honda just keeps on running. B/c of it's age, I don't want to put any money into it. If and when it does die, I will definitely buy another Honda, which will probably out live me.
Thanks again for your help and I'll look at the PolyLube.
John
I did as you described in you earlier post. I removed the snap rings and pinion gears, woodruff, etc., as you suggested. It sure is easier now using it as a push mower.
I applied a small amount of axle grease to the axle. For the bearing race, I sprayed WD40 several times to try and clean the internal bearings and then carefully used motor oil between the race and the metal sleeves. I no longer hear the chirping and the back wheel binding is gone. I'll check out you suggested "Polylube".
My Honda just keeps on running. Wife says I bought it new in 93. The tires are completely bald and it's not the prettiest, yet still does it job. Before that, I had a LawnBoy which only lasted a few years. It had a side discharge/bagger which complicated things going around trees, flower beds, etc. But, this Honda just keeps on running. B/c of it's age, I don't want to put any money into it. If and when it does die, I will definitely buy another Honda, which will probably out live me.
Thanks again for your help and I'll look at the PolyLube.
John
#11
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bertsmobile1
The brand new ones I get in to replace worn out ones with are "greased" with a very light grease just a touch heavier than vasoline, very similar to the grease you find in sealed deep grove ball bearings.
My commercial customers have been using dry lithium grease for as long as I have been in business and they get about 3 years out of the ratchet pawls of commercial use ( up to 20 mows a day ).
Honda's engineers also recommend you remove the wheels , clean & grease them every 100 hours.
So if you are going to maintain the mower by the book, fine use grease , but most owners are hard put to actually read the maintenance schedule let alone actually follow it.
The first time most owners read the manual is when something breaks.
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bertsmobile1
As an engineer, my gut feeling is to trust the judgement of my fellow engineers - the guys that designed and built this mechanism. They might not be always perfect, but I believe they know what they are doing. So when they said grease, they probably meant grease. If you deviate, you do so at your own risk. The bushings on both sides of the pinion, when combined with sufficient grease, seem to hold a reasonable seal and keep dirt out. I don't believe a dry lube would protect the spring loaded woodruff key, key slot, and inner eccentric mechanism as well as a light wet lube. But hey, that's just my feeling on this. Do as you see fit.
For this application, I used Park Tools Polylube 1000 - the same stuff that protects the small bearings on my bicycles and other systems that call for a high shear strength light grease.
True, the exposed gear teeth might benefit from a dryer lube to keep from attracting too much fine dirt, but the one-way drive mechanism should be lubed as prescribed.
The brand new ones I get in to replace worn out ones with are "greased" with a very light grease just a touch heavier than vasoline, very similar to the grease you find in sealed deep grove ball bearings.
My commercial customers have been using dry lithium grease for as long as I have been in business and they get about 3 years out of the ratchet pawls of commercial use ( up to 20 mows a day ).
Honda's engineers also recommend you remove the wheels , clean & grease them every 100 hours.
So if you are going to maintain the mower by the book, fine use grease , but most owners are hard put to actually read the maintenance schedule let alone actually follow it.
The first time most owners read the manual is when something breaks.
#12
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Bert,
I did read the owners manual many years ago. While I didn't remove the wheels, I did give them each a shot of motor oil each year and clean around the height adjustments. But, that's all other than changing the air filter, spark plug, and I did change the oil once. It just keeps on runnin. Years ago, I was going to fix the self propulsion, but, then decided it was the only exercise I got at the time. So, I just kept on pushin.
If and when I get a new one, I will definitely maintain it better, now that I'm retired.
I also have a 99 craftsman lawn tractor my daughter gave me 10 years ago. I use it to do the back yard. Now that thing keeps me busy with maintenance, greasing, oil changes and leveling the deck. I bring the battery in each winter and put on a trickle charger. Deck removal I've done once. What a PIA that was. And putting back on was a challenge. Come winter I'm going to remove the deck, bring the deck indoors, and coat the deck with rust inhibitor and then paint. The thing looks terrible, but, starts and runs with one turn key each time. I also keep it outside, covered with a tarp. No room for it inside.
Well, thanks again for your thoughts and suggestions. I appreciate it.
John
I did read the owners manual many years ago. While I didn't remove the wheels, I did give them each a shot of motor oil each year and clean around the height adjustments. But, that's all other than changing the air filter, spark plug, and I did change the oil once. It just keeps on runnin. Years ago, I was going to fix the self propulsion, but, then decided it was the only exercise I got at the time. So, I just kept on pushin.
If and when I get a new one, I will definitely maintain it better, now that I'm retired.
I also have a 99 craftsman lawn tractor my daughter gave me 10 years ago. I use it to do the back yard. Now that thing keeps me busy with maintenance, greasing, oil changes and leveling the deck. I bring the battery in each winter and put on a trickle charger. Deck removal I've done once. What a PIA that was. And putting back on was a challenge. Come winter I'm going to remove the deck, bring the deck indoors, and coat the deck with rust inhibitor and then paint. The thing looks terrible, but, starts and runs with one turn key each time. I also keep it outside, covered with a tarp. No room for it inside.
Well, thanks again for your thoughts and suggestions. I appreciate it.
John
#13
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bertsmobile1
Nice to hear some one does the right thing by their mower.
Use a BBQ or motorcycle cover over the mower, prefferably one with vents rather than a tarp which people tend to hold down with bricks.
That turns into a high humidity rust tent in summer.
If possible park the mower over something that is dry like concrete or heavy plastic to prevent moisture from underneath rusting the mower.
POR 15 is head & shoulders above everything else for painting the deck, but it is a BIG job if done properly and a waste of time & money is not.
As for the deck, get some 8 foot long 2x4 long enough to slide under the deck and use them like rails to slide the deck in & out
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bertsmobile1
Bert,
I did read the owners manual many years ago. While I didn't remove the wheels, I did give them each a shot of motor oil each year and clean around the height adjustments. But, that's all other than changing the air filter, spark plug, and I did change the oil once. It just keeps on runnin. Years ago, I was going to fix the self propulsion, but, then decided it was the only exercise I got at the time. So, I just kept on pushin.
If and when I get a new one, I will definitely maintain it better, now that I'm retired.
I also have a 99 craftsman lawn tractor my daughter gave me 10 years ago. I use it to do the back yard. Now that thing keeps me busy with maintenance, greasing, oil changes and leveling the deck. I bring the battery in each winter and put on a trickle charger. Deck removal I've done once. What a PIA that was. And putting back on was a challenge. Come winter I'm going to remove the deck, bring the deck indoors, and coat the deck with rust inhibitor and then paint. The thing looks terrible, but, starts and runs with one turn key each time. I also keep it outside, covered with a tarp. No room for it inside.
Well, thanks again for your thoughts and suggestions. I appreciate it.
John
Nice to hear some one does the right thing by their mower.
Use a BBQ or motorcycle cover over the mower, prefferably one with vents rather than a tarp which people tend to hold down with bricks.
That turns into a high humidity rust tent in summer.
If possible park the mower over something that is dry like concrete or heavy plastic to prevent moisture from underneath rusting the mower.
POR 15 is head & shoulders above everything else for painting the deck, but it is a BIG job if done properly and a waste of time & money is not.
As for the deck, get some 8 foot long 2x4 long enough to slide under the deck and use them like rails to slide the deck in & out