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Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
#1
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
New member here. I have a Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series Mower, 6.5 HP DuraForce engine (2-cycle), model number is 10247, purchased new in September 2000. In 2007 I was having starting problems and with the help of another forum I received advice and replaced the CDI. Well, after approximately 7-years it's having problems starting once again and I think it might need another CDI, but this time there may be other problems as well.
The last few years it seems to be smoking more at start up than usual as well as occasionally spitting something from the muffler (which I now believe to be fuel mix) but one/both symptoms stop once the engine warms up. I'm not positive but fuel may be going missing which I suppose my be due to the above. Tuesday I went out to clean the air filter which I haven't done in a number of years and realized that not only was there a patch of oily dirty stuff in front of the muffler, but the air cleaner housing, most of the engine from the cowling down as well as a good portion of the deck around the engine was also covered in this dirty stuff. I got most of it cleaned off, accessed the air cleaner filter, (which was amazingly cleaner than I expected considering everything on the outside) cleaned it, oiled it an replaced it. Some of this mess may have been my doing as I have overfilled the fuel tank a few times, but I think there may be something else wrong.
Yesterday, I went out to see if I could get it started and mow the lawn without any success. Due to it's inconsistent previous behavior I tried starting it without priming it, wouldn't start, tried priming it (3 presses) wouldn't start, tried priming it (3 presses) again with the same result of no start. Removed the plug and cleaned it, put it back and tried again still nothing. I did not check for spark yesterday, but it was producing a spark a few weeks ago when I checked it.
I don't really have any experience with internal combustion engines (2-cycle or otherwise) so I'm really in the dark as to what may be wrong. From what I've read on the net it sounds like it may be the carburetor or shaft seals (?) causing the fuel mess. Could this fuel leak (?) cause the starting problem or would it only be caused by the CDI failing? Is the OEM replacement CDI still the only choice or are there good 3rd party alternatives now?
Back in 2007 when I replaced the CDI it didn't have any other problems and the new CDI made sense but now I'm not sure it does. I'm now wondering if it makes sense to put on a new CDI or replace other engine parts on a 14-year-old mower (2000)?
Thanks.
The last few years it seems to be smoking more at start up than usual as well as occasionally spitting something from the muffler (which I now believe to be fuel mix) but one/both symptoms stop once the engine warms up. I'm not positive but fuel may be going missing which I suppose my be due to the above. Tuesday I went out to clean the air filter which I haven't done in a number of years and realized that not only was there a patch of oily dirty stuff in front of the muffler, but the air cleaner housing, most of the engine from the cowling down as well as a good portion of the deck around the engine was also covered in this dirty stuff. I got most of it cleaned off, accessed the air cleaner filter, (which was amazingly cleaner than I expected considering everything on the outside) cleaned it, oiled it an replaced it. Some of this mess may have been my doing as I have overfilled the fuel tank a few times, but I think there may be something else wrong.
Yesterday, I went out to see if I could get it started and mow the lawn without any success. Due to it's inconsistent previous behavior I tried starting it without priming it, wouldn't start, tried priming it (3 presses) wouldn't start, tried priming it (3 presses) again with the same result of no start. Removed the plug and cleaned it, put it back and tried again still nothing. I did not check for spark yesterday, but it was producing a spark a few weeks ago when I checked it.
I don't really have any experience with internal combustion engines (2-cycle or otherwise) so I'm really in the dark as to what may be wrong. From what I've read on the net it sounds like it may be the carburetor or shaft seals (?) causing the fuel mess. Could this fuel leak (?) cause the starting problem or would it only be caused by the CDI failing? Is the OEM replacement CDI still the only choice or are there good 3rd party alternatives now?
Back in 2007 when I replaced the CDI it didn't have any other problems and the new CDI made sense but now I'm not sure it does. I'm now wondering if it makes sense to put on a new CDI or replace other engine parts on a 14-year-old mower (2000)?
Thanks.
#2
P
Phototone
P
Phototone
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Before you go replacing lots of stuff, determine if the mower still has spark. Take the spark plug out, attach the wire to the plug and ground out the outside of the plug to the engine head, away from the spark plug hole. Have someone squeeze the handle and pull the engine thru a few times. You should get spark. If not, then YES there are aftermarket Coils (CDI) available from many vendors and Amazon and Ebay that will fit your mower and cost about 1/2 what a OEM coil does.
Before you go replacing lots of stuff, determine if the mower still has spark. Take the spark plug out, attach the wire to the plug and ground out the outside of the plug to the engine head, away from the spark plug hole. Have someone squeeze the handle and pull the engine thru a few times. You should get spark. If not, then YES there are aftermarket Coils (CDI) available from many vendors and Amazon and Ebay that will fit your mower and cost about 1/2 what a OEM coil does.
#3
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Thanks for the reply.
Well, I went out and tried to start it tonight. Didn't prime it, just pulled the cord 3-4 times with no success. Took out the plug and checked it for spark and at least for the here and now it has spark. Put the plug back in and tried to start it, again without priming, started on the first pull, it smoked for a bit and then ran fine so I cut the grass. I looked at the deck after mowing and there was some fuel residue beneath the muffler (pics below) but I didn't see any elsewhere. So, now what?
Before you go replacing lots of stuff, determine if the mower still has spark. Take the spark plug out, attach the wire to the plug and ground out the outside of the plug to the engine head, away from the spark plug hole. Have someone squeeze the handle and pull the engine thru a few times. You should get spark. If not, then YES there are aftermarket Coils (CDI) available from many vendors and Amazon and Ebay that will fit your mower and cost about 1/2 what a OEM coil does.
Thanks for the reply.
Well, I went out and tried to start it tonight. Didn't prime it, just pulled the cord 3-4 times with no success. Took out the plug and checked it for spark and at least for the here and now it has spark. Put the plug back in and tried to start it, again without priming, started on the first pull, it smoked for a bit and then ran fine so I cut the grass. I looked at the deck after mowing and there was some fuel residue beneath the muffler (pics below) but I didn't see any elsewhere. So, now what?
#4
turfboy1997
turfboy1997
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
The needle and seat need to be replaced. part number 92-9697. Fuel is slowly leaking by the needle and seat and filling the crankcase and muffler up with raw fuel. Replace it and you should be good.
Thanks for the reply.
Well, I went out and tried to start it tonight. Didn't prime it, just pulled the cord 3-4 times with no success. Took out the plug and checked it for spark and at least for the here and now it has spark. Put the plug back in and tried to start it, again without priming, started on the first pull, it smoked for a bit and then ran fine so I cut the grass. I looked at the deck after mowing and there was some fuel residue beneath the muffler (pics below) but I didn't see any elsewhere. So, now what?
View attachment 22725View attachment 22726
The needle and seat need to be replaced. part number 92-9697. Fuel is slowly leaking by the needle and seat and filling the crankcase and muffler up with raw fuel. Replace it and you should be good.
#5
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Thanks for the reply.
Are those carburetor parts? Is the leaking fuel causing the random failures to start?
The needle and seat need to be replaced. part number 92-9697. Fuel is slowly leaking by the needle and seat and filling the crankcase and muffler up with raw fuel. Replace it and you should be good.
Thanks for the reply.
Are those carburetor parts? Is the leaking fuel causing the random failures to start?
#6
turfboy1997
turfboy1997
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
yes they are inside the carburetor. the needle attaches to the float and the seat screws into the carb body. if you have spark its more than likely the carburetor needle and seat because it is flooding out making it hard to start.
yes they are inside the carburetor. the needle attaches to the float and the seat screws into the carb body. if you have spark its more than likely the carburetor needle and seat because it is flooding out making it hard to start.
#7
P
possum
P
possum
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Dang that Turfboy is smart. Do what he says. Or at least shut the fuel off every time when your done. Or both.
Dang that Turfboy is smart. Do what he says. Or at least shut the fuel off every time when your done. Or both.
#8
turfboy1997
turfboy1997
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
the needle and seat is a very common problem with just about any carburetor. especially with the corrosion caused by ethanol in most gasoline. As for a fuel shutoff, duraforce mowers did not come with one stock. But you can go to lowes or home depot and buy one for 10 bucks.
Dang that Turfboy is smart. Do what he says. Or at least shut the fuel off every time when your done. Or both.
the needle and seat is a very common problem with just about any carburetor. especially with the corrosion caused by ethanol in most gasoline. As for a fuel shutoff, duraforce mowers did not come with one stock. But you can go to lowes or home depot and buy one for 10 bucks.
#9
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Thanks. Since I drove old clunker cars when I was a teenager I understand the concept of flooding, but what makes this confusing to me is why it wouldn't and then would start yesterday when all I did was take out the spark plug and put it back in? Like I said in my original message I don't really have any experience with working on engines, so, I'm not even sure where the carburetor is, but, I'm assuming it's behind the air filter. From your description it sounds like replacing the needle and seat is going to require some disassembly, is that correct? How difficult is it to replace these parts?
Thanks. As far as I know my mower doesn't have a fuel shutoff.
Thanks. I didn't know that ethanol was bad for mower engines. It's good to know that I haven't been overlooking the fuel shutoff all these years.
yes they are inside the carburetor. the needle attaches to the float and the seat screws into the carb body. if you have spark its more than likely the carburetor needle and seat because it is flooding out making it hard to start.
Thanks. Since I drove old clunker cars when I was a teenager I understand the concept of flooding, but what makes this confusing to me is why it wouldn't and then would start yesterday when all I did was take out the spark plug and put it back in? Like I said in my original message I don't really have any experience with working on engines, so, I'm not even sure where the carburetor is, but, I'm assuming it's behind the air filter. From your description it sounds like replacing the needle and seat is going to require some disassembly, is that correct? How difficult is it to replace these parts?
Dang that Turfboy is smart. Do what he says. Or at least shut the fuel off every time when your done. Or both.
Thanks. As far as I know my mower doesn't have a fuel shutoff.
the needle and seat is a very common problem with just about any carburetor. especially with the corrosion caused by ethanol in most gasoline. As for a fuel shutoff, duraforce mowers did not come with one stock. But you can go to lowes or home depot and buy one for 10 bucks.
Thanks. I didn't know that ethanol was bad for mower engines. It's good to know that I haven't been overlooking the fuel shutoff all these years.
#10
beg
beg
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Install a 1/4 inch right angle fuel shutoff and your problem will be solved.you can replace the needle and seat too but try the shutoff valve first and see what happens.Thank you for cleaning up your mower.gook and grime retains heat and warps the carb body
Install a 1/4 inch right angle fuel shutoff and your problem will be solved.you can replace the needle and seat too but try the shutoff valve first and see what happens.Thank you for cleaning up your mower.gook and grime retains heat and warps the carb body
#11
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Thanks. turfboy1997 also mentioned adding a fuel shutoff, could either of you give me an idea of what I'd be looking for and how I would go about installing it? Since dirt and grime act as an insulator I can see how it would hinder the cooling of the mower but I had no idea it could warp the carb, I would've cleaned it sooner but I didn't have any idea it was like that.
Install a 1/4 inch right angle fuel shutoff and your problem will be solved.you can replace the needle and seat too but try the shutoff valve first and see what happens.Thank you for cleaning up your mower.gook and grime retains heat and warps the carb body
Thanks. turfboy1997 also mentioned adding a fuel shutoff, could either of you give me an idea of what I'd be looking for and how I would go about installing it? Since dirt and grime act as an insulator I can see how it would hinder the cooling of the mower but I had no idea it could warp the carb, I would've cleaned it sooner but I didn't have any idea it was like that.
#12
beg
beg
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
look on ebay for a 1/4 inch right angle fuel shut off valve they are about 4 bucks.drain the fuel tank and cut the fuel line right where the bend is then snip off another 1/4 inch piece of the line its pretty strait forward from there hold the valve up to the line to make sure you cut it in the right spot and have the valve positioned where its easy to operate.
look on ebay for a 1/4 inch right angle fuel shut off valve they are about 4 bucks.drain the fuel tank and cut the fuel line right where the bend is then snip off another 1/4 inch piece of the line its pretty strait forward from there hold the valve up to the line to make sure you cut it in the right spot and have the valve positioned where its easy to operate.
#13
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Thanks. I'm going out tomorrow, so I'm going to see what I can find at Home Depot or Menards (we don't have a Lowes). Now that I know what I'm looking for if I can't find anything locally I'll get something on eBay.
look on ebay for a 1/4 inch right angle fuel shut off valve they are about 4 bucks.drain the fuel tank and cut the fuel line right where the bend is then snip off another 1/4 inch piece of the line its pretty strait forward from there hold the valve up to the line to make sure you cut it in the right spot and have the valve positioned where its easy to operate.View attachment 22735
Thanks. I'm going out tomorrow, so I'm going to see what I can find at Home Depot or Menards (we don't have a Lowes). Now that I know what I'm looking for if I can't find anything locally I'll get something on eBay.
#14
P
Phototone
P
Phototone
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
These little fuel shut-off valves can be found at almost ALL hardware stores particularly those that have the ACE or TruValue franchise, as well as auto-parts stores. Many auto parts stores have a small section of lawnmower tune-up parts, which include shut-off valves.
These little fuel shut-off valves can be found at almost ALL hardware stores particularly those that have the ACE or TruValue franchise, as well as auto-parts stores. Many auto parts stores have a small section of lawnmower tune-up parts, which include shut-off valves.
#15
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Thanks. Well, I looked at Home Depot and Menards today and the only thing that both sold was a Universal Gas Shut off Valve kit made by Arnold. It included a straight shut off valve as well as a length of hose and 2 clamps. Would this work as well as the right angle variety? Do I need the hose and clamps as well? I can get a right angle one without the hose and clamps on eBay if that's better and I don't need the additional parts.
These little fuel shut-off valves can be found at almost ALL hardware stores particularly those that have the ACE or TruValue franchise, as well as auto-parts stores. Many auto parts stores have a small section of lawnmower tune-up parts, which include shut-off valves.
Thanks. Well, I looked at Home Depot and Menards today and the only thing that both sold was a Universal Gas Shut off Valve kit made by Arnold. It included a straight shut off valve as well as a length of hose and 2 clamps. Would this work as well as the right angle variety? Do I need the hose and clamps as well? I can get a right angle one without the hose and clamps on eBay if that's better and I don't need the additional parts.
#16
P
Phototone
P
Phototone
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Either one will work fine. It's always a good idea to use fresh fuel line when replacing anything.
Thanks. Well, I looked at Home Depot and Menards today and the only thing that both sold was a Universal Gas Shut off Valve kit made by Arnold. It included a straight shut off valve as well as a length of hose and 2 clamps. Would this work as well as the right angle variety? Do I need the hose and clamps as well? I can get a right angle one without the hose and clamps on eBay if that's better and I don't need the additional parts.
Either one will work fine. It's always a good idea to use fresh fuel line when replacing anything.
#17
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Thanks. If I replace the fuel line would I need 2 additional clamps, for the connection at the fuel tank and the carburetor as well?
Either one will work fine. It's always a good idea to use fresh fuel line when replacing anything.
Thanks. If I replace the fuel line would I need 2 additional clamps, for the connection at the fuel tank and the carburetor as well?
#18
P
Phototone
P
Phototone
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
When fuel line is new, and sized correctly, on a gravity feed system like the Lawnboy or other push mowers have, generally it is tight enough to not need clamps, but as the fuel line ages, it can swell, and clamps might be needed to ensure a drip-proof seal.
When fuel line is new, and sized correctly, on a gravity feed system like the Lawnboy or other push mowers have, generally it is tight enough to not need clamps, but as the fuel line ages, it can swell, and clamps might be needed to ensure a drip-proof seal.
#19
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Oops, ignore please.
Oops, ignore please.
#20
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Thanks. I think I discovered something that may be a problem with using the shut-off kit. When I looked at the kits yesterday I noticed that they were 1/4" ID, well, I looked up the actual Lawn-Boy fuel line #612782 and according to the pic on this parts site it's 3/16" ID (I think). If that's the case wouldn't that make the shutoff from the kit difficult to install with the existing fuel line or make the new fuel line too big to fit snugly on the fuel tank and carburetor nipples?
When fuel line is new, and sized correctly, on a gravity feed system like the Lawnboy or other push mowers have, generally it is tight enough to not need clamps, but as the fuel line ages, it can swell, and clamps might be needed to ensure a drip-proof seal.
Thanks. I think I discovered something that may be a problem with using the shut-off kit. When I looked at the kits yesterday I noticed that they were 1/4" ID, well, I looked up the actual Lawn-Boy fuel line #612782 and according to the pic on this parts site it's 3/16" ID (I think). If that's the case wouldn't that make the shutoff from the kit difficult to install with the existing fuel line or make the new fuel line too big to fit snugly on the fuel tank and carburetor nipples?
#21
P
Phototone
P
Phototone
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
On the SilverPro series (as well as many others) the nipples on the gas tank and carb are slightly tapered. You can fit your 1/4" hose just fine. Use the clamps if loose.
Thanks. I think I discovered something that may be a problem with using the shut-off kit. When I looked at the kits yesterday I noticed that they were 1/4" ID, well, I looked up the actual Lawn-Boy fuel line #612782 and according to the pic on this parts site it's 3/16" ID (I think). If that's the case wouldn't that make the shutoff from the kit difficult to install with the existing fuel line or make the new fuel line too big to fit snugly on the fuel tank and carburetor nipples?
On the SilverPro series (as well as many others) the nipples on the gas tank and carb are slightly tapered. You can fit your 1/4" hose just fine. Use the clamps if loose.
#22
J
jp1961
J
jp1961
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
I had similar problems with my 1999 Duraforce. I was on the verge of replacing the mower. I removed the carb, replaced the needle and seat and thoroughly cleaned the exterior of the carb. The mower now runs better than new. Bought a fuel shutoff from Meijer's.
Jeff
I had similar problems with my 1999 Duraforce. I was on the verge of replacing the mower. I removed the carb, replaced the needle and seat and thoroughly cleaned the exterior of the carb. The mower now runs better than new. Bought a fuel shutoff from Meijer's.
Jeff
#23
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Thanks. I guess I could do that, I'd just be happier with it if it was the proper size.
Thanks. I've also given consideration to getting a new mower but don't really want to give up the Lawn-Boy. I learned earlier in this thread that the needle and seat are my problem as well it's just that I've never done that kind of thing before and besides not knowing where to begin I'm afraid I'd mess things up. The fuel shutoff was suggested as a "quick fix" and I think it's something I can handle. Dang, I was at Meijer yesterday as well and didn't think of looking for a shut-off there. Did you reuse your existing fuel line with the shut-off? Was it a 1/4" shut-off and did you use the straight or right angle variety?
On the SilverPro series (as well as many others) the nipples on the gas tank and carb are slightly tapered. You can fit your 1/4" hose just fine. Use the clamps if loose.
Thanks. I guess I could do that, I'd just be happier with it if it was the proper size.
I had similar problems with my 1999 Duraforce. I was on the verge of replacing the mower. I removed the carb, replaced the needle and seat and thoroughly cleaned the exterior of the carb. The mower now runs better than new. Bought a fuel shutoff from Meijer's.
Thanks. I've also given consideration to getting a new mower but don't really want to give up the Lawn-Boy. I learned earlier in this thread that the needle and seat are my problem as well it's just that I've never done that kind of thing before and besides not knowing where to begin I'm afraid I'd mess things up. The fuel shutoff was suggested as a "quick fix" and I think it's something I can handle. Dang, I was at Meijer yesterday as well and didn't think of looking for a shut-off there. Did you reuse your existing fuel line with the shut-off? Was it a 1/4" shut-off and did you use the straight or right angle variety?
#24
J
jp1961
J
jp1961
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
It's straight. I wouldn't reuse the original fuel line.
Jeff
It's straight. I wouldn't reuse the original fuel line.
Jeff
#25
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Thanks. Did you use a 1/4" ID fuel line? Did you need to use clamps on fuel tank and carburetor ends of the line?
It's straight. I wouldn't reuse the original fuel line.
Thanks. Did you use a 1/4" ID fuel line? Did you need to use clamps on fuel tank and carburetor ends of the line?
#26
J
jp1961
J
jp1961
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
I didn't use any clamps, doesn't leak with out them. If you remove the carb, it's best to take a detailed picture before starting any work. I also live in Michigan (greater Detroit area), if you get in a bind and live near Detroit, I could help.
Jeff
I didn't use any clamps, doesn't leak with out them. If you remove the carb, it's best to take a detailed picture before starting any work. I also live in Michigan (greater Detroit area), if you get in a bind and live near Detroit, I could help.
Jeff
#27
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Thanks. Good to hear that clamps probably aren't needed as the connection on the carb seems like it would be hard to get a clamp on. If I decide to tackle the carb, I'll definitely be taking lots of pics and thanks for the offer of help but I'm 100+ north of Detroit.
I didn't use any clamps, doesn't leak with out them. If you remove the carb, it's best to take a detailed picture before starting any work. I also live in Michigan (greater Detroit area), if you get in a bind and live near Detroit, I could help.
Jeff
Thanks. Good to hear that clamps probably aren't needed as the connection on the carb seems like it would be hard to get a clamp on. If I decide to tackle the carb, I'll definitely be taking lots of pics and thanks for the offer of help but I'm 100+ north of Detroit.
#28
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Decided to go with a right-angle shut off valve, so I ordered one along with a piece of 1/4" ID fuel line on eBay and it should be here by the weekend. I'll let everyone know how it turns out. Thanks for all the help.
Decided to go with a right-angle shut off valve, so I ordered one along with a piece of 1/4" ID fuel line on eBay and it should be here by the weekend. I'll let everyone know how it turns out. Thanks for all the help.
#29
beg
beg
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
good choice on the right angle valve use the original line like I said earlier you have to cut it at the bend in the line and take 1/4 inch of of the piece going to the carb.If you take the carb off to replace the needle and seat be sure not to strecth the govenor spring or you will have a whole new set of issues.A little oil on the hose makes it easier to slip on and clamps are not needed.
good choice on the right angle valve use the original line like I said earlier you have to cut it at the bend in the line and take 1/4 inch of of the piece going to the carb.If you take the carb off to replace the needle and seat be sure not to strecth the govenor spring or you will have a whole new set of issues.A little oil on the hose makes it easier to slip on and clamps are not needed.
#30
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Thanks. I had heard of warming hoses/tubes to help get them on fittings, but had never heard about using oil before, I'll keep that in mind. I don't know when I'll work on the carb, but I'm pretty sure I will do it...eventually. I know I can take it apart and most likely put it back together, but what I have to get past is the fear of damaging something or not doing it correctly. I've download the parts list and the "E" engine service manual and read over the carburetor section a couple of times so I now at least have a understanding of what everyone is talking about. When I get to the carb cleaning/rebuilding I think I'll post a new thread because I'm sure I'll have questions. Thanks for the warning about the governor spring, that's the kind of thing I'm afraid of doing.
good choice on the right angle valve use the original line like I said earlier you have to cut it at the bend in the line and take 1/4 inch of of the piece going to the carb.If you take the carb off to replace the needle and seat be sure not to strecth the govenor spring or you will have a whole new set of issues.A little oil on the hose makes it easier to slip on and clamps are not needed.
Thanks. I had heard of warming hoses/tubes to help get them on fittings, but had never heard about using oil before, I'll keep that in mind. I don't know when I'll work on the carb, but I'm pretty sure I will do it...eventually. I know I can take it apart and most likely put it back together, but what I have to get past is the fear of damaging something or not doing it correctly. I've download the parts list and the "E" engine service manual and read over the carburetor section a couple of times so I now at least have a understanding of what everyone is talking about. When I get to the carb cleaning/rebuilding I think I'll post a new thread because I'm sure I'll have questions. Thanks for the warning about the governor spring, that's the kind of thing I'm afraid of doing.
#31
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
I received my length of new fuel line yesterday (still waiting on the shut-off valve) and realized that it may not be the correct kind for a 2-cycle engine (gas/oil mix) or for gas containing ethanol.
This is what I purchased, FUEL LINE 1/4" x 1/2" SOLD BY THE FOOT - SAME AS WHAT YOU HAVE ON YOUR MACHINE
Marked on it is: 1/4" (6.35mm) I.D. SAE-30R7-KX 078698506012 - MADE IN U.S.A. 04 16 13
Is it good for 2-cycle fuel mix? Is it good for gas with ethanol?
I received my length of new fuel line yesterday (still waiting on the shut-off valve) and realized that it may not be the correct kind for a 2-cycle engine (gas/oil mix) or for gas containing ethanol.
This is what I purchased, FUEL LINE 1/4" x 1/2" SOLD BY THE FOOT - SAME AS WHAT YOU HAVE ON YOUR MACHINE
Marked on it is: 1/4" (6.35mm) I.D. SAE-30R7-KX 078698506012 - MADE IN U.S.A. 04 16 13
Is it good for 2-cycle fuel mix? Is it good for gas with ethanol?
#32
P
Phototone
P
Phototone
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
If it is true "Fuel Line" it should last a long time. You shouldn't use Ethanol fuel, really. But for running issues, not fuel line issues.
I received my length of new fuel line yesterday (still waiting on the shut-off valve) and realized that it may not be the correct kind for a 2-cycle engine (gas/oil mix) or for gas containing ethanol.
This is what I purchased, FUEL LINE 1/4" x 1/2" SOLD BY THE FOOT - SAME AS WHAT YOU HAVE ON YOUR MACHINE
Marked on it is: 1/4" (6.35mm) I.D. SAE-30R7-KX 078698506012 - MADE IN U.S.A. 04 16 13
Is it good for 2-cycle fuel mix? Is it good for gas with ethanol?
If it is true "Fuel Line" it should last a long time. You shouldn't use Ethanol fuel, really. But for running issues, not fuel line issues.
#33
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
The seller listed it as "Fuel Line" and from other info on the net it does seem to be that, but I couldn't find any thing conclusive about using gas with ethanol or 2-cycle fuel mix and that's why I asked about it here. I now know that I shouldn't be using gas with ethanol, but I currently have some and planned on finishing out this season with it hence my concern about it being a issue with the fuel line.
If it is true "Fuel Line" it should last a long time. You shouldn't use Ethanol fuel, really. But for running issues, not fuel line issues.
The seller listed it as "Fuel Line" and from other info on the net it does seem to be that, but I couldn't find any thing conclusive about using gas with ethanol or 2-cycle fuel mix and that's why I asked about it here. I now know that I shouldn't be using gas with ethanol, but I currently have some and planned on finishing out this season with it hence my concern about it being a issue with the fuel line.
#34
lawnboywillneverdie
lawnboywillneverdie
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
hey i am just wondering if a gasket is going bad on my mower. heres how it goes. to start i turn on the fuel shut off valve prime it once and start on low throttle and it comes alive but with one problem, after mowing i notice a bit of oil on the back right of the mower deck. i check the engine mounting plate (named it wrong i bet) and a good amount of oil residue is covering it. but when i check the muffler inspection plate under the deck, its just fine with minimal oil. the lower crankcase seal is not even a year old and i don't want to replace that P.I.T.A. part again. any suggestions? will post pics in a min. just ask what you need pic of and ill get it as soon as i have the time to do it.(probably soon after you ask)
hey i am just wondering if a gasket is going bad on my mower. heres how it goes. to start i turn on the fuel shut off valve prime it once and start on low throttle and it comes alive but with one problem, after mowing i notice a bit of oil on the back right of the mower deck. i check the engine mounting plate (named it wrong i bet) and a good amount of oil residue is covering it. but when i check the muffler inspection plate under the deck, its just fine with minimal oil. the lower crankcase seal is not even a year old and i don't want to replace that P.I.T.A. part again. any suggestions? will post pics in a min. just ask what you need pic of and ill get it as soon as i have the time to do it.(probably soon after you ask)
#35
P
Phototone
P
Phototone
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Your "oil" could be seepage from a carb float bowl with the float needle not seating, or the float set too high, thus allowing gas/oil to seep out float bowl gasket. It could also be a slight crack in the gas tank (it does happen), or a crack at the tank nipple.
Your "oil" could be seepage from a carb float bowl with the float needle not seating, or the float set too high, thus allowing gas/oil to seep out float bowl gasket. It could also be a slight crack in the gas tank (it does happen), or a crack at the tank nipple.
#36
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
If it is the fuel tank leaking, it's possible that it's covered under this Lawn-Boy recall, CPSC, Lawn-Boy Inc. Announce Recall of Power Mowers.
Your "oil" could be seepage from a carb float bowl with the float needle not seating, or the float set too high, thus allowing gas/oil to seep out float bowl gasket. It could also be a slight crack in the gas tank (it does happen), or a crack at the tank nipple.
If it is the fuel tank leaking, it's possible that it's covered under this Lawn-Boy recall, CPSC, Lawn-Boy Inc. Announce Recall of Power Mowers.
#37
beg
beg
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
a little oil on the deck ey.I had one that did that too.smoked like a well we better not say it here but it went away after awhile like 20 minutes of run time.cuase was a flooded out crankcase due to fuel seepage.If your mower runs okay just run it.Also not to bring it up again but Stihl synthetic at 50 to one ratio sweems to be the way to go and oh yeah PREMIUM NON ETHANOL ONLY
a little oil on the deck ey.I had one that did that too.smoked like a well we better not say it here but it went away after awhile like 20 minutes of run time.cuase was a flooded out crankcase due to fuel seepage.If your mower runs okay just run it.Also not to bring it up again but Stihl synthetic at 50 to one ratio sweems to be the way to go and oh yeah PREMIUM NON ETHANOL ONLY
#38
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Last Wednesday in anticipation of installing the new fuel line and shut-off valve I drained the tank on the Lawn-Boy. Well, as fate would have it I still haven't received my shut-off valve and the lawn is over due for a cutting so I filled the tank back up and guess what...it won't start. I feel like I'm performing voodoo each time I get it to start and don't have any idea why it does start when it does versus the times it won't. I don't have the patience for voodoo today. I'm waving the white flag. I give up. :-(
Last Wednesday in anticipation of installing the new fuel line and shut-off valve I drained the tank on the Lawn-Boy. Well, as fate would have it I still haven't received my shut-off valve and the lawn is over due for a cutting so I filled the tank back up and guess what...it won't start. I feel like I'm performing voodoo each time I get it to start and don't have any idea why it does start when it does versus the times it won't. I don't have the patience for voodoo today. I'm waving the white flag. I give up. :-(
#39
bt3
bt3
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Ah, Lawnboy starting issues. That's a first. :smile:
All kidding aside, I'm surprised I'm such a fan with all the issues I've had with my L21zsm over the years. But like I posted in another thread, I've become so good at tinkering with the mower, I know it better than any mower I have ever had. Because I have worked on it so much, I am pretty confident that it will start and mow... most of the time anyway.
I know it's maddening when you can't get a mower started and then suddenly it starts, and than does not start again. I've had that happen to me on the LawnBoy.
I've had issues with carbon and sludge in the exhaust ports and muffler causing starting and running issues. I've had Carb issues galore. I've taken apart and cleaned and serviced the Carb four times since I've owned the mower. I had a governor issue causing me grief for an entire season, only to find it was simply a dirty pivot point and nothing more. A few shots of carb cleaner on the pivot at the bottom of the wind Vane and some penetrating oil and it was finally fixed after a summer's worth of misery. I had a spark plug new out of the box that was bad. I have had a fuel tank vent clog and give me a headache trying to find out why the mower was dying after running for a while. And I've had problems with the ignition coil(s). This last one is OEM and has lasted me 3 years by the grace of the almighty. Lucky I guess.
Your Duraforce is one hellava motor. I'm sure you'll get it fixed. Once you do that's another notch in the knowledge belt. Over time, if you stick with it, you'll become good at diagnosing and servicing it. Trust me. When I first bought my LawnBoy, I only checked Oil in my Snapper, put in gas and pulled the starter cord. Now with LawnBoy, I am more like I'm an old Steam Locomotive Engineer and I've got to keep the old girl running through constant tweaking!
Some may frown on this suggestion, but have you ever bought a can of Ether (Quick Start Spray) and tried that? This is a quick way to start a stubborn small engine. Spray a little bit into the Carb intake and give it a pull. Chances are good it will fire up with that spray. I have started many stubborn to start mowers over the years with a quick spray of starting fluid.
Ah, Lawnboy starting issues. That's a first. :smile:
All kidding aside, I'm surprised I'm such a fan with all the issues I've had with my L21zsm over the years. But like I posted in another thread, I've become so good at tinkering with the mower, I know it better than any mower I have ever had. Because I have worked on it so much, I am pretty confident that it will start and mow... most of the time anyway.
I know it's maddening when you can't get a mower started and then suddenly it starts, and than does not start again. I've had that happen to me on the LawnBoy.
I've had issues with carbon and sludge in the exhaust ports and muffler causing starting and running issues. I've had Carb issues galore. I've taken apart and cleaned and serviced the Carb four times since I've owned the mower. I had a governor issue causing me grief for an entire season, only to find it was simply a dirty pivot point and nothing more. A few shots of carb cleaner on the pivot at the bottom of the wind Vane and some penetrating oil and it was finally fixed after a summer's worth of misery. I had a spark plug new out of the box that was bad. I have had a fuel tank vent clog and give me a headache trying to find out why the mower was dying after running for a while. And I've had problems with the ignition coil(s). This last one is OEM and has lasted me 3 years by the grace of the almighty. Lucky I guess.
Your Duraforce is one hellava motor. I'm sure you'll get it fixed. Once you do that's another notch in the knowledge belt. Over time, if you stick with it, you'll become good at diagnosing and servicing it. Trust me. When I first bought my LawnBoy, I only checked Oil in my Snapper, put in gas and pulled the starter cord. Now with LawnBoy, I am more like I'm an old Steam Locomotive Engineer and I've got to keep the old girl running through constant tweaking!
Some may frown on this suggestion, but have you ever bought a can of Ether (Quick Start Spray) and tried that? This is a quick way to start a stubborn small engine. Spray a little bit into the Carb intake and give it a pull. Chances are good it will fire up with that spray. I have started many stubborn to start mowers over the years with a quick spray of starting fluid.
#40
beg
beg
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
check for spark.if you have spark spray some starting fluid or carb cleaner in the plug hole and replace the plug if it pops but dies you got carb issues such as a clogged main jet.dont give up its worth the trouble new mowers are not like a duraforce.once you get in your groove its a snap to work on one
check for spark.if you have spark spray some starting fluid or carb cleaner in the plug hole and replace the plug if it pops but dies you got carb issues such as a clogged main jet.dont give up its worth the trouble new mowers are not like a duraforce.once you get in your groove its a snap to work on one
Attachments
#41
bt3
bt3
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Absolutely. My next LawnBoy will be a Duraforce. Keeping an eye out for one in good shape. :thumbsup:
check for spark.if you have spark spray some starting fluid or carb cleaner in the plug hole and replace the plug if it pops but dies you got carb issues such as a clogged main jet.dont give up its worth the trouble new mowers are not like a duraforce.once you get in your groove its a snap to work on one
Absolutely. My next LawnBoy will be a Duraforce. Keeping an eye out for one in good shape. :thumbsup:
#42
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
I've decided that my Lawn-Boy has multiple issues, no-start and probably a carb that needs works. I've got a new fuel line and I'm waiting on the shut-off valve to fix the fuel leak due to the carb issues. My immediate problem though is the no start issue. I've twice previously checked for spark and confirmed that it did have spark, but my gut instinct after having replaced the CDI in 2007 is telling me to replace the CDI again, so I ordered one off eBay last night. Hopefully I'll get the new parts by the weekend and I get my overgrown lawn back in control. Short term I need a mower that I can get started and hopefully these two repairs will do that for me. Once that's accomplished I'll decide how to deal with the carb because I know long term that it needs to be dealt with. Guys, thanks for the encouragement, Lawn-Boys are great mowers and I want to keep this one going if I can.
I've decided that my Lawn-Boy has multiple issues, no-start and probably a carb that needs works. I've got a new fuel line and I'm waiting on the shut-off valve to fix the fuel leak due to the carb issues. My immediate problem though is the no start issue. I've twice previously checked for spark and confirmed that it did have spark, but my gut instinct after having replaced the CDI in 2007 is telling me to replace the CDI again, so I ordered one off eBay last night. Hopefully I'll get the new parts by the weekend and I get my overgrown lawn back in control. Short term I need a mower that I can get started and hopefully these two repairs will do that for me. Once that's accomplished I'll decide how to deal with the carb because I know long term that it needs to be dealt with. Guys, thanks for the encouragement, Lawn-Boys are great mowers and I want to keep this one going if I can.
#43
bt3
bt3
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
On another thread I extolled the virtues of replacing the CDI on LawnBoys.
They have a reputation to fail, and when they are starting to fail, they mimic carb and fuel starvation issues.
There are threads on other boards that state you can sometimes breathe new life into a failing coil by baking it in an oven for 30 minutes at 185 degrees. I've tried this method with mixed results. Best to replace the coil. Amazon has coils (aftermarket) for 20 bucks that I find work very well. Sure beats 100 bucks for an OEM. For 20 bucks, I'd replace them first and ask questions later.
But yes, coils are always suspect on LawnBoys. When I hear "Bogging Down", or "Loss of Power", or "Stalling Out" or "Surging" I suspect a failing coil. It can be a carb issue of course, or governor or other issues, but you gotta' watch those damn LawnBoy CDI Coils! :thumbsup:
Keep us posted. Those of us that love LawnBoy want to know how it's going.
PS - I have found complete carb kits for my LB on Amazon. Just key in LawnBoy [part number]. I know Partstree is popular and that's fine, but I like Amazon because sometimes you have choices on whom to buy the parts from and at what price.
On another thread I extolled the virtues of replacing the CDI on LawnBoys.
They have a reputation to fail, and when they are starting to fail, they mimic carb and fuel starvation issues.
There are threads on other boards that state you can sometimes breathe new life into a failing coil by baking it in an oven for 30 minutes at 185 degrees. I've tried this method with mixed results. Best to replace the coil. Amazon has coils (aftermarket) for 20 bucks that I find work very well. Sure beats 100 bucks for an OEM. For 20 bucks, I'd replace them first and ask questions later.
But yes, coils are always suspect on LawnBoys. When I hear "Bogging Down", or "Loss of Power", or "Stalling Out" or "Surging" I suspect a failing coil. It can be a carb issue of course, or governor or other issues, but you gotta' watch those damn LawnBoy CDI Coils! :thumbsup:
Keep us posted. Those of us that love LawnBoy want to know how it's going.
PS - I have found complete carb kits for my LB on Amazon. Just key in LawnBoy [part number]. I know Partstree is popular and that's fine, but I like Amazon because sometimes you have choices on whom to buy the parts from and at what price.
#44
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
I read the other thread where you talked about replacing the CDI and I think it's good advice now that aftermarket CDIs are available at a more reasonable cost. The one I bought on eBay was "on sale" and was $18.00, the same seller also had them on Amazon Marketplace but was a couple of bucks more, so, I went with the one on eBay. I finally got an update on the shutoff valve that I ordered and according to tracking both it and the CDI will be here on Tuesday, hopefully the weather will cooperate next week and I get everything installed, the Lawn-Boy will start and I can give my rapidly growing grass a cut. Hopefully, I'll be able to let everyone know how it turns out next week.
On another thread I extolled the virtues of replacing the CDI on LawnBoys.
They have a reputation to fail, and when they are starting to fail, they mimic carb and fuel starvation issues.
There are threads on other boards that state you can sometimes breathe new life into a failing coil by baking it in an oven for 30 minutes at 185 degrees. I've tried this method with mixed results. Best to replace the coil. Amazon has coils (aftermarket) for 20 bucks that I find work very well. Sure beats 100 bucks for an OEM. For 20 bucks, I'd replace them first and ask questions later.
But yes, coils are always suspect on LawnBoys. When I hear "Bogging Down", or "Loss of Power", or "Stalling Out" or "Surging" I suspect a failing coil. It can be a carb issue of course, or governor or other issues, but you gotta' watch those damn LawnBoy CDI Coils! :thumbsup:
Keep us posted. Those of us that love LawnBoy want to know how it's going.
PS - I have found complete carb kits for my LB on Amazon. Just key in LawnBoy [part number]. I know Partstree is popular and that's fine, but I like Amazon because sometimes you have choices on whom to buy the parts from and at what price.
I read the other thread where you talked about replacing the CDI and I think it's good advice now that aftermarket CDIs are available at a more reasonable cost. The one I bought on eBay was "on sale" and was $18.00, the same seller also had them on Amazon Marketplace but was a couple of bucks more, so, I went with the one on eBay. I finally got an update on the shutoff valve that I ordered and according to tracking both it and the CDI will be here on Tuesday, hopefully the weather will cooperate next week and I get everything installed, the Lawn-Boy will start and I can give my rapidly growing grass a cut. Hopefully, I'll be able to let everyone know how it turns out next week.
#45
bt3
bt3
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Excellent Dewguy. We wish you luck. I'm sure you'll get that mighty Duraforce going strong again.
I don't do eBay because I've had huge issues with both sellers on eBay and with PayPal. Too long to post here, but my days of eBay are over. Amazon is more like Walmart. They don't balk at you needing a refund because you got a defective part, and you can use any credit card you like directly, without PayPal.
Have a good weekend with that great mower.
Excellent Dewguy. We wish you luck. I'm sure you'll get that mighty Duraforce going strong again.
I don't do eBay because I've had huge issues with both sellers on eBay and with PayPal. Too long to post here, but my days of eBay are over. Amazon is more like Walmart. They don't balk at you needing a refund because you got a defective part, and you can use any credit card you like directly, without PayPal.
Have a good weekend with that great mower.
#46
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
I've been using eBay for quite some time, but have mostly bought paperback books and a few other inexpensive items. I've had a couple of "hiccups" along the way, including this shut-off valve, but in the end all have turned out well. I don't think I'd ever buy anything expensive though.
Hope you have a nice Labor Day weekend as well.
Excellent Dewguy. We wish you luck. I'm sure you'll get that mighty Duraforce going strong again.
I don't do eBay because I've had huge issues with both sellers on eBay and with PayPal. Too long to post here, but my days of eBay are over. Amazon is more like Walmart. They don't balk at you needing a refund because you got a defective part, and you can use any credit card you like directly, without PayPal.
Have a good weekend with that great mower.
I've been using eBay for quite some time, but have mostly bought paperback books and a few other inexpensive items. I've had a couple of "hiccups" along the way, including this shut-off valve, but in the end all have turned out well. I don't think I'd ever buy anything expensive though.
Hope you have a nice Labor Day weekend as well.
#47
bt3
bt3
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Thanks.
Just yesterday, I started having issues again with the LB. My diagnosis was 80% CDI issue, 20% Carb. I always have a spare CDI on hand these days. Popped a new one on, and all was good 15 minutes later. Once you learn how these little monsters behave and you can diagnose things accurately, it's fairly straight-forward to fix them quickly and efficiently.
Thanks.
Just yesterday, I started having issues again with the LB. My diagnosis was 80% CDI issue, 20% Carb. I always have a spare CDI on hand these days. Popped a new one on, and all was good 15 minutes later. Once you learn how these little monsters behave and you can diagnose things accurately, it's fairly straight-forward to fix them quickly and efficiently.
#48
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Wow, I guess I've had good luck with both of my CDIs lasting about 7-years. Both were OEM and I hope this new aftermarket one will last as long...or even longer.
Thanks.
Just yesterday, I started having issues again with the LB. My diagnosis was 80% CDI issue, 20% Carb. I always have a spare CDI on hand these days. Popped a new one on, and all was good 15 minutes later. Once you learn how these little monsters behave and you can diagnose things accurately, it's fairly straight-forward to fix them quickly and efficiently.
Wow, I guess I've had good luck with both of my CDIs lasting about 7-years. Both were OEM and I hope this new aftermarket one will last as long...or even longer.
#49
bt3
bt3
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
IMO, some of it has to do with engine cooling. The way the L21zsm is designed, the outer shroud and inner metal rim shield the CDI from some of the cooling, and I think the CDI really takes a lot of heat. I know they are designed to do so, but heat and time can wear on a CDI. Also, there were a batch of OEM CDI's that just plain were not very reliable, especially on F series engines. Combine the two and you've got a situation for CDI failure. Your Duraforce has a different design altogether, so it does not surprise me that your Ignition Coil lasted longer than mine do. But at 20 bucks a coil now via Amazon, I don't really care. If I had to replace one every season, I'd be OK with it.
Lawnboy coils are also more complex than many other lawnmower coils which may contribute to the failure rate. They are 2 stage. I can't remember the exact degrees (so don't hold me to this - I've got it written down in the shop). Starting coil stage is something like 8 degrees BTDC and after 800 RPM the running stage is something like 28 degrees BTDC. Again, I'm quoting that from memory, and have not looked at the actual figures in years. You can easily look it up online.
Wow, I guess I've had good luck with both of my CDIs lasting about 7-years. Both were OEM and I hope this new aftermarket one will last as long...or even longer.
IMO, some of it has to do with engine cooling. The way the L21zsm is designed, the outer shroud and inner metal rim shield the CDI from some of the cooling, and I think the CDI really takes a lot of heat. I know they are designed to do so, but heat and time can wear on a CDI. Also, there were a batch of OEM CDI's that just plain were not very reliable, especially on F series engines. Combine the two and you've got a situation for CDI failure. Your Duraforce has a different design altogether, so it does not surprise me that your Ignition Coil lasted longer than mine do. But at 20 bucks a coil now via Amazon, I don't really care. If I had to replace one every season, I'd be OK with it.
Lawnboy coils are also more complex than many other lawnmower coils which may contribute to the failure rate. They are 2 stage. I can't remember the exact degrees (so don't hold me to this - I've got it written down in the shop). Starting coil stage is something like 8 degrees BTDC and after 800 RPM the running stage is something like 28 degrees BTDC. Again, I'm quoting that from memory, and have not looked at the actual figures in years. You can easily look it up online.
#50
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
It probably helps that here in Michigan it only gets used for about 6-months out-of-the-year and in my case, once a week where it only gets started once and run for about a half hour. I'm sure the minimal use helps to extend it's life.
It got me curious, so I looked it up in the Service Manual and in Lawn-Boy's own words, it's "about 5 degrees" BTDC and "about 28 degrees" BTDC at "about 800 RPM". You've got a pretty good memory.
IMO, some of it has to do with engine cooling. The way the L21zsm is designed, the outer shroud and inner metal rim shield the CDI from some of the cooling, and I think the CDI really takes a lot of heat. I know they are designed to do so, but heat and time can wear on a CDI. Also, there were a batch of OEM CDI's that just plain were not very reliable, especially on F series engines. Combine the two and you've got a situation for CDI failure. Your Duraforce has a different design altogether, so it does not surprise me that your Ignition Coil lasted longer than mine do. But at 20 bucks a coil now via Amazon, I don't really care. If I had to replace one every season, I'd be OK with it.
Lawnboy coils are also more complex than many other lawnmower coils which may contribute to the failure rate. They are 2 stage. I can't remember the exact degrees (so don't hold me to this - I've got it written down in the shop). Starting coil stage is something like 8 degrees BTDC and after 800 RPM the running stage is something like 28 degrees BTDC. Again, I'm quoting that from memory, and have not looked at the actual figures in years. You can easily look it up online.
It probably helps that here in Michigan it only gets used for about 6-months out-of-the-year and in my case, once a week where it only gets started once and run for about a half hour. I'm sure the minimal use helps to extend it's life.
It got me curious, so I looked it up in the Service Manual and in Lawn-Boy's own words, it's "about 5 degrees" BTDC and "about 28 degrees" BTDC at "about 800 RPM". You've got a pretty good memory.
#51
bt3
bt3
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Not bad! :thumbsup:
It probably helps that here in Michigan it only gets used for about 6-months out-of-the-year and in my case, once a week where it only gets started once and run for about a half hour. I'm sure the minimal use helps to extend it's life.
It got me curious, so I looked it up in the Service Manual and in Lawn-Boy's own words, it's "about 5 degrees" BTDC and "about 28 degrees" BTDC at "about 800 RPM". You've got a pretty good memory.
Not bad! :thumbsup:
#52
beg
beg
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Dont buy a carb kit unless you need it also you have to assemble it as it comes in pieces.when you take your carb off look for warpage on the flanges.if they are warped you need the carb kit.if the flanges are warped the inner carb passages most likely are too.as far as ebay goes I have not had a bad expierence with buying parts for Lawnboys and I have purchased a lot of coils and fuel shutoff valves.I did buy a carb kit and put it together following some great instructions and pics on "{my Tractor Forum '[ if you plan to build up a carb study up on the jet drilling process.It make a world of difference on how the duraforce motor runs as it was developed to pass epa standards running a little on the lean side. You will have to purchase a micro drill bit set but they are cheap on ebay here is a pic of my gold series push n go I picked up for 20.00 needed a coil and carb cleaning
Dont buy a carb kit unless you need it also you have to assemble it as it comes in pieces.when you take your carb off look for warpage on the flanges.if they are warped you need the carb kit.if the flanges are warped the inner carb passages most likely are too.as far as ebay goes I have not had a bad expierence with buying parts for Lawnboys and I have purchased a lot of coils and fuel shutoff valves.I did buy a carb kit and put it together following some great instructions and pics on "{my Tractor Forum '[ if you plan to build up a carb study up on the jet drilling process.It make a world of difference on how the duraforce motor runs as it was developed to pass epa standards running a little on the lean side. You will have to purchase a micro drill bit set but they are cheap on ebay here is a pic of my gold series push n go I picked up for 20.00 needed a coil and carb cleaning
#53
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Thanks for all the advice on the "rebuild kit". I read one thread, I think it might have been on MyTractorForum.com where the guy got the kit and built it and ended up with the new carb surging the same as his old one. That's the kind of luck I would have. Thankfully my Lawn-Boy doesn't surge and I'm hoping that if I end up having to do anything with the carb that it doesn't start surging when I'm done.
I received the CDI today and if all goes to plan I'll get everything installed tomorrow and be back in business. I hope it's not all for naught as my lawn really needs a mowing.
Nice looking Gold Series and it looks like you got a great deal on that mower getting it for only $20.
Dont buy a carb kit unless you need it also you have to assemble it as it comes in pieces.when you take your carb off look for warpage on the flanges.if they are warped you need the carb kit.if the flanges are warped the inner carb passages most likely are too.as far as ebay goes I have not had a bad expierence with buying parts for Lawnboys and I have purchased a lot of coils and fuel shutoff valves.I did buy a carb kit and put it together following some great instructions and pics on "{my Tractor Forum '[ if you plan to build up a carb study up on the jet drilling process.It make a world of difference on how the duraforce motor runs as it was developed to pass epa standards running a little on the lean side. You will have to purchase a micro drill bit set but they are cheap on ebay here is a pic of my gold series push n go I picked up for 20.00 needed a coil and carb cleaningView attachment 23160
Thanks for all the advice on the "rebuild kit". I read one thread, I think it might have been on MyTractorForum.com where the guy got the kit and built it and ended up with the new carb surging the same as his old one. That's the kind of luck I would have. Thankfully my Lawn-Boy doesn't surge and I'm hoping that if I end up having to do anything with the carb that it doesn't start surging when I'm done.
I received the CDI today and if all goes to plan I'll get everything installed tomorrow and be back in business. I hope it's not all for naught as my lawn really needs a mowing.
Nice looking Gold Series and it looks like you got a great deal on that mower getting it for only $20.
#54
bt3
bt3
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Keep us posted Please, Dewguy.
Hope you get that lawn done and all goes well.
Keep us posted Please, Dewguy.
Hope you get that lawn done and all goes well.
#55
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Well I installed the new fuel line, 90 degree shut off valve and the CDI today. I also cleaned the spark plug and some more of the oily grime from places that I couldn't get to the other day and scraped out the underside of the deck and the bag chute.
Filled it with the last of the gas I bought in May. I turned on the valve and and pulled the cord (without priming it) and it tried to start but died out. Gave it another pull (without priming) and it didn't start. So, I gave it one press of the primer and it stated on the first pull. I'm cautiously optimistic that it's going to continue to do so. Fingers crossed. With the rear bagger chute on the mower the valves not in the best place for accessibility but I've got small hands so I can get to it.
I got about 3/4 of the front/side yard cut when I went over a low spot next to my neighbor's fence and the mower started smoking and making a sound. I don't really know what I'm talking about, but I'm going to say it seemed to be missing. When I moved the throttle down to a slower speed I could get it to stop smoking and missing, if I increased the speed it started smoking and missing, so, I continued mowing at the slower speed. I don't usually run it wide open, but I did today because the grass was so long.
When I finished the entire yard I lowered it a notch (I had raised for the long grass) and re-mowed the front lawn. While doing the re-mow I managed to come down on my driveway apron and scalped the corner of the grass and caused the mower to stall. I thought I was done then because I've never had much luck getting it to start again when the engine is hot, but I tried and it started and I was able to finish the re-mow.
I'm hoping that you will tell me that my new problem is caused by the stale gas. I'll have to get gas before I mow again and hopefully doing so will fix this. If I'm just grasping at straws with this theory please let me know.
Thanks.
Keep us posted Please, Dewguy.
Hope you get that lawn done and all goes well.
Well I installed the new fuel line, 90 degree shut off valve and the CDI today. I also cleaned the spark plug and some more of the oily grime from places that I couldn't get to the other day and scraped out the underside of the deck and the bag chute.
Filled it with the last of the gas I bought in May. I turned on the valve and and pulled the cord (without priming it) and it tried to start but died out. Gave it another pull (without priming) and it didn't start. So, I gave it one press of the primer and it stated on the first pull. I'm cautiously optimistic that it's going to continue to do so. Fingers crossed. With the rear bagger chute on the mower the valves not in the best place for accessibility but I've got small hands so I can get to it.
I got about 3/4 of the front/side yard cut when I went over a low spot next to my neighbor's fence and the mower started smoking and making a sound. I don't really know what I'm talking about, but I'm going to say it seemed to be missing. When I moved the throttle down to a slower speed I could get it to stop smoking and missing, if I increased the speed it started smoking and missing, so, I continued mowing at the slower speed. I don't usually run it wide open, but I did today because the grass was so long.
When I finished the entire yard I lowered it a notch (I had raised for the long grass) and re-mowed the front lawn. While doing the re-mow I managed to come down on my driveway apron and scalped the corner of the grass and caused the mower to stall. I thought I was done then because I've never had much luck getting it to start again when the engine is hot, but I tried and it started and I was able to finish the re-mow.
I'm hoping that you will tell me that my new problem is caused by the stale gas. I'll have to get gas before I mow again and hopefully doing so will fix this. If I'm just grasping at straws with this theory please let me know.
Thanks.
Attachments
#56
bt3
bt3
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Nice job on that shutoff valve. My LB has one on the tank factory installed, and I do use it.
OK, Smoke and missing on full throttle.
My guess would be stale gas, Carb issue or a bad CDI offset degree for high speed. The CDI has two magnets as you know. One at about 5 degrees for starting and one at about 38 degrees for high speed. If the CDI was not installed and gapped correctly (I use a business card as a gap meter) or if it has some issue from manufacture, high speed operation can cause this issue as the offset (before top dead center) is not quite enough when you get beyond, say, 3,000 rpm. The carb adjustments (jets) have to be tuned correctly as well for correct high speed ops.
But don't despair. Try new gas first! Lots of guys will tell you not to waste your money on a higher grade of gas , but I run Mid grade (89 octane) gas in my small motors. Not premium and not regular. Mid grade. I get better ignition and results. Learned this lesson when I had a 2 stroke motorcycle and from running LawnBoy for 9 years now. Mid grade makes a difference in the long haul. My opinion. Let us know how you make out with the fresh gas. Tackle that first. Then we'll see how the mower does at high RPM.
Nice job on that shutoff valve. My LB has one on the tank factory installed, and I do use it.
OK, Smoke and missing on full throttle.
My guess would be stale gas, Carb issue or a bad CDI offset degree for high speed. The CDI has two magnets as you know. One at about 5 degrees for starting and one at about 38 degrees for high speed. If the CDI was not installed and gapped correctly (I use a business card as a gap meter) or if it has some issue from manufacture, high speed operation can cause this issue as the offset (before top dead center) is not quite enough when you get beyond, say, 3,000 rpm. The carb adjustments (jets) have to be tuned correctly as well for correct high speed ops.
But don't despair. Try new gas first! Lots of guys will tell you not to waste your money on a higher grade of gas , but I run Mid grade (89 octane) gas in my small motors. Not premium and not regular. Mid grade. I get better ignition and results. Learned this lesson when I had a 2 stroke motorcycle and from running LawnBoy for 9 years now. Mid grade makes a difference in the long haul. My opinion. Let us know how you make out with the fresh gas. Tackle that first. Then we'll see how the mower does at high RPM.
#57
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
I used a business card to install the new CDI, as a matter of fact it was the same one I used 7-years ago when I installed the last replacement, so I think I'm good on the gap. It started smoking and missing after I had been mowing for about 15-20 minutes (I think) and not until I hit the dip (which I suppose could be a coincidence) does that make sense for it being a bad CDI?
The mower has about a half a tank of stale gas now, and I'm leaning towards getting the no ethanol gas (90 octane I think) from the local marina when I get fresh, so that should be better for it on many different levels from what I understand.
Nice job on that shutoff valve. My LB has one on the tank factory installed, and I do use it.
OK, Smoke and missing on full throttle.
My guess would be stale gas, Carb issue or a bad CDI offset degree for high speed. The CDI has two magnets as you know. One at about 5 degrees for starting and one at about 38 degrees for high speed. If the CDI was not installed and gapped correctly (I use a business card as a gap meter) or if it has some issue from manufacture, high speed operation can cause this issue as the offset (before top dead center) is not quite enough when you get beyond, say, 3,000 rpm. The carb adjustments (jets) have to be tuned correctly as well for correct high speed ops.
But don't despair. Try new gas first! Lots of guys will tell you not to waste your money on a higher grade of gas , but I run Mid grade (89 octane) gas in my small motors. Not premium and not regular. Mid grade. I get better ignition and results. Learned this lesson when I had a 2 stroke motorcycle and from running LawnBoy for 9 years now. Mid grade makes a difference in the long haul. My opinion. Let us know how you make out with the fresh gas. Tackle that first. Then we'll see how the mower does at high RPM.
I used a business card to install the new CDI, as a matter of fact it was the same one I used 7-years ago when I installed the last replacement, so I think I'm good on the gap. It started smoking and missing after I had been mowing for about 15-20 minutes (I think) and not until I hit the dip (which I suppose could be a coincidence) does that make sense for it being a bad CDI?
The mower has about a half a tank of stale gas now, and I'm leaning towards getting the no ethanol gas (90 octane I think) from the local marina when I get fresh, so that should be better for it on many different levels from what I understand.
#58
bt3
bt3
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Yes. Let's cross one bridge at a time. Get the 90 octane no Ethanol, drain the stale gas. Run the fresh gas mix for 30 minutes mowing (might as well get some use out it and mow again cross hatching what you did today). I am hoping that the missing and smoke does not come back at high RPM.
I doubt the "Dip" made any difference, unless it somehow knocked a governor spring loose or something like that. I suppose a governor out of adjustment or with a spring loose and allowing the mower to be pushed beyond limits of RPM that the CDI can sustain by the offset would cause an issue. This is really speculating now. Another speculation would be a piece of carbon was bumped out of the ignition chamber and lodged in the exhaust port. Highly speculative. I'd think a carb issue first.
Gas first! Then we'll see about the rest if the gas does not cure the issue outright!
I used a business card to install the new CDI, as a matter of fact it was the same one I used 7-years ago when I installed the last replacement, so I think I'm good on the gap. It started smoking and missing after I had been mowing for about 15-20 minutes (I think) and not until I hit the dip (which I suppose could be a coincidence) does that make sense for it being a bad CDI?
The mower has about a half a tank of stale gas now, and I'm leaning towards getting the no ethanol gas (90 octane I think) from the local marina when I get fresh, so that should be better for it on many different levels from what I understand.
Yes. Let's cross one bridge at a time. Get the 90 octane no Ethanol, drain the stale gas. Run the fresh gas mix for 30 minutes mowing (might as well get some use out it and mow again cross hatching what you did today). I am hoping that the missing and smoke does not come back at high RPM.
I doubt the "Dip" made any difference, unless it somehow knocked a governor spring loose or something like that. I suppose a governor out of adjustment or with a spring loose and allowing the mower to be pushed beyond limits of RPM that the CDI can sustain by the offset would cause an issue. This is really speculating now. Another speculation would be a piece of carbon was bumped out of the ignition chamber and lodged in the exhaust port. Highly speculative. I'd think a carb issue first.
Gas first! Then we'll see about the rest if the gas does not cure the issue outright!
#59
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Gas first sounds like a good plan. It probably won't be for a few days or more but I'll let everyone know when I've tried that.
When I was almost done mowing today, I turned off the valve and then continued cutting until it ran out of gas, is that the way I should do that or should I have tried to restart it?
Yes. Let's cross one bridge at a time. Get the 90 octane no Ethanol, drain the stale gas. Run the fresh gas mix for 30 minutes mowing (might as well get some use out it and mow again cross hatching what you did today). I am hoping that the missing and smoke does not come back at high RPM.
I doubt the "Dip" made any difference, unless it somehow knocked a governor spring loose or something like that. I suppose a governor out of adjustment and allowing the pushing the mower beyond limits of RPM that the CDI can sustain would cause an issue. This is really speculating now. Another speculation would be a piece of carbon was bumped out of the ignition chamber and lodged in the exhaust port. Highly speculative. I'd think a carb issue first.
Gas first! Then we'll see about the rest if the gas does not cure the issue outright!
Gas first sounds like a good plan. It probably won't be for a few days or more but I'll let everyone know when I've tried that.
When I was almost done mowing today, I turned off the valve and then continued cutting until it ran out of gas, is that the way I should do that or should I have tried to restart it?
#60
bt3
bt3
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
No sir. Running it out of gas is fine. When it stops you are done. I typically throttle the mower back to low speed when I'm done cutting (mowers cool better when they are run on low speed for a while before shutting off) and let it run parked in front of the garage, cut the fuel and let it wind down on its own. Then I park it until next time. Turn on the fuel, wait a few minutes for the bowl to fill, and pull the starter. :thumbsup:
I'll be looking forward to your response!
Gas first sounds like a good plan. It probably won't be for a few days or more but I'll let everyone know when I've tried that.
When I was almost done mowing today, I turned off the valve and then continued cutting until it ran out of gas, is that the way I should do that or should I have tried to restart it?
No sir. Running it out of gas is fine. When it stops you are done. I typically throttle the mower back to low speed when I'm done cutting (mowers cool better when they are run on low speed for a while before shutting off) and let it run parked in front of the garage, cut the fuel and let it wind down on its own. Then I park it until next time. Turn on the fuel, wait a few minutes for the bowl to fill, and pull the starter. :thumbsup:
I'll be looking forward to your response!
#61
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
After watching a bunch of YouTube videos for engines misfiring, knocking and backfiring, I think the way it was behaving when set to fast best fits backfiring, would that change your diagnosis?
No sir. Running it out of gas is fine. When it stops you are done. I typically throttle the mower back to low speed when I'm done cutting (mowers cool better when they are run on low speed for a while before shutting off) and let it run parked in front of the garage, cut the fuel and let it wind down on its own. Then I park it until next time. Turn on the fuel, wait a few minutes for the bowl to fill, and pull the starter. :thumbsup:
I'll be looking forward to your response!
After watching a bunch of YouTube videos for engines misfiring, knocking and backfiring, I think the way it was behaving when set to fast best fits backfiring, would that change your diagnosis?
#62
bt3
bt3
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
If you think it is a Backfiring issue, this is typically one of the following problem sources;
-Exhaust Ports or Muffler Clogged
-Reed valve or Valve Bed bad, stuck, or clogged
-Crankcase seals that are out of position or leaking
-Crankcase leaking pressure/vacuum from a bad reassembly or a sealing issue
A "Reed Valve" issue is easy to check by pulling the carb and looking at the valves with a flashlight. See if they are working by slowly turning the crank and looking and listening for them operating. Reeds are what 2 cycle engines use in place of valves. However, Reeds don't usually make a backfiring issue at only one speed. Usually this is linear. Meaning, you get it across the power band and not just at high RPM, however, it is possible that a bad reed will contribute more at high RPM than low. Reed failure or a stuck Reed valve (sticking can be because of a piece of debris in the reed from carbon to a few grass blades or a leaf twig) will usually make it difficult to start, and you don't have that problem.
Again, let's try the fresh fuel. from that point we can move forward it it does not solve the problem outright. It just might. If that does not cure the issue, then we look at Carb and other potential issues.
If you think it is a Backfiring issue, this is typically one of the following problem sources;
-Exhaust Ports or Muffler Clogged
-Reed valve or Valve Bed bad, stuck, or clogged
-Crankcase seals that are out of position or leaking
-Crankcase leaking pressure/vacuum from a bad reassembly or a sealing issue
A "Reed Valve" issue is easy to check by pulling the carb and looking at the valves with a flashlight. See if they are working by slowly turning the crank and looking and listening for them operating. Reeds are what 2 cycle engines use in place of valves. However, Reeds don't usually make a backfiring issue at only one speed. Usually this is linear. Meaning, you get it across the power band and not just at high RPM, however, it is possible that a bad reed will contribute more at high RPM than low. Reed failure or a stuck Reed valve (sticking can be because of a piece of debris in the reed from carbon to a few grass blades or a leaf twig) will usually make it difficult to start, and you don't have that problem.
Again, let's try the fresh fuel. from that point we can move forward it it does not solve the problem outright. It just might. If that does not cure the issue, then we look at Carb and other potential issues.
#63
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
I hope it is the gas, because the alternatives don't sound like anything I want to tackle. I'll post again when I have something new to report.
If you think it is a Backfiring issue, this is typically one of the following problem sources;
-Exhaust Ports or Muffler Clogged
-Reed valve or Valve Bed bad, stuck, or clogged
-Crankcase seals that are out of position or leaking
-Crankcase leaking pressure/vacuum from a bad reassembly or a sealing issue
A "Reed Valve" issue is easy to check by pulling the carb and looking at the valves with a flashlight. See if they are working by slowly turning the crank and looking and listening for them operating. Reeds are what 2 cycle engines use in place of valves. However, Reeds don't usually make a backfiring issue at only one speed. Usually this is linear. Meaning, you get it across the power band and not just at high RPM, however, it is possible that a bad reed will contribute more at high RPM than low. Reed failure or a stuck Reed valve (sticking can be because of a piece of debris in the reed from carbon to a few grass blades or a leaf twig) will usually make it difficult to start, and you don't have that problem.
Again, let's try the fresh fuel. from that point we can move forward it it does not solve the problem outright. It just might. If that does not cure the issue, then we look at Carb and other potential issues.
I hope it is the gas, because the alternatives don't sound like anything I want to tackle. I'll post again when I have something new to report.
#64
bt3
bt3
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
No problem. Those I listed are highly suspect. But if the gas does not work, then there are other much simpler things we can try before you tackle the most suspect. One step at a time.
I hope it is the gas, because the alternatives don't sound like anything I want to tackle. I'll post again when I have something new to report.
No problem. Those I listed are highly suspect. But if the gas does not work, then there are other much simpler things we can try before you tackle the most suspect. One step at a time.
#65
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
I haven't purchased new gas yet, but I did go out and cut the grass again (the neighbors must think I'm nuts). It started after the second prime and pull and pretty much ran the same as it did on Wednesday. I was trying to use up the old gas (as I don't have any way to get rid of it) but there's still a few ounces left in the tank. Do you think adding the new gas (when I get it) to the old would be okay?
I made a movie of the sound it's making, Lawn-Boy 10247 missing, hope that works.
Here's a pic of the largest section of my front lawn showing my Lawn-Boy's handiwork.
No problem. Those I listed are highly suspect. But if the gas does not work, then there are other much simpler things we can try before you tackle the most suspect. One step at a time.
I haven't purchased new gas yet, but I did go out and cut the grass again (the neighbors must think I'm nuts). It started after the second prime and pull and pretty much ran the same as it did on Wednesday. I was trying to use up the old gas (as I don't have any way to get rid of it) but there's still a few ounces left in the tank. Do you think adding the new gas (when I get it) to the old would be okay?
I made a movie of the sound it's making, Lawn-Boy 10247 missing, hope that works.
Here's a pic of the largest section of my front lawn showing my Lawn-Boy's handiwork.
#66
lawnboywillneverdie
Question the air inlet tunnel is missing on my duraforce. Will that have a profound effect on how it starts and runs?
lawnboywillneverdie
check for spark.if you have spark spray some starting fluid or carb cleaner in the plug hole and replace the plug if it pops but dies you got carb issues such as a clogged main jet.dont give up its worth the trouble new mowers are not like a duraforce.once you get in your groove
its a snap to work on one
Question the air inlet tunnel is missing on my duraforce. Will that have a profound effect on how it starts and runs?
#67
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
You might get a better response to your questions if you start a new topic. :smile:
Question the air inlet tunnel is missing on my duraforce. Will that have a profound effect on how it starts and runs?
You might get a better response to your questions if you start a new topic. :smile:
#68
bt3
bt3
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Lawn looks superb. Very nice indeed.
OK, from what I can tell in that video (nice job by the way!) YOU ARE NOT backfiring. It's missing, skipping and surging. First take is that the surge is from the missing and hitting cycle that develops into a perceived surge but it's the skipping that begins the cycle onset.
Should be a simple fix as compared to a backfire.
First: FRESH FUEL!
Second: NEW SPARK PLUG. Check that plug! Is it new? I can't remember. For a few bucks, replace it if it is not new.
Third: MAGNETO AND FLYWHEEL. Is there RUST on the flywheel magnets? Sand it off. I'm helping a few guys here so forgive me if I got you mixed up, but didn't you just replace the magneto with an aftermarket CDI? Try your old CDI (if that was still working - can't remember) and see if the problem clears. These LawnBoy CDI modules are notorious for failure, sometimes out of the box. Especially aftermarket. That's why I go with the cheap 19 buck new style CDI at Amazon. If it fails in a few months, I'm ok with it. However, most will last for years. May not be your problem but if it started when you put the new CDI on, then this is highly suspect!
Forth: CARB ISSUE. Bad adjustment or poor venturi flow through a jet, bad float or needle valve. I think you just cleaned the carb? Did you replace the float and needle? Did you change the carb adjustment screw setting? There is an external screw with a spring that adjusts the carb setting.
90 percent it's one of the above. I personally would work them in the order that I typed them. Keep us posted please!
I haven't purchased new gas yet, but I did go out and cut the grass again (the neighbors must think I'm nuts). It started after the second prime and pull and pretty much ran the same as it did on Wednesday. I was trying to use up the old gas (as I don't have any way to get rid of it) but there's still a few ounces left in the tank. Do you think adding the new gas (when I get it) to the old would be okay?
I made a movie of the sound it's making, Lawn-Boy 10247 missing, hope that works.
Here's a pic of the largest section of my front lawn showing my Lawn-Boy's handiwork.
View attachment 23207
Lawn looks superb. Very nice indeed.
OK, from what I can tell in that video (nice job by the way!) YOU ARE NOT backfiring. It's missing, skipping and surging. First take is that the surge is from the missing and hitting cycle that develops into a perceived surge but it's the skipping that begins the cycle onset.
Should be a simple fix as compared to a backfire.
First: FRESH FUEL!
Second: NEW SPARK PLUG. Check that plug! Is it new? I can't remember. For a few bucks, replace it if it is not new.
Third: MAGNETO AND FLYWHEEL. Is there RUST on the flywheel magnets? Sand it off. I'm helping a few guys here so forgive me if I got you mixed up, but didn't you just replace the magneto with an aftermarket CDI? Try your old CDI (if that was still working - can't remember) and see if the problem clears. These LawnBoy CDI modules are notorious for failure, sometimes out of the box. Especially aftermarket. That's why I go with the cheap 19 buck new style CDI at Amazon. If it fails in a few months, I'm ok with it. However, most will last for years. May not be your problem but if it started when you put the new CDI on, then this is highly suspect!
Forth: CARB ISSUE. Bad adjustment or poor venturi flow through a jet, bad float or needle valve. I think you just cleaned the carb? Did you replace the float and needle? Did you change the carb adjustment screw setting? There is an external screw with a spring that adjusts the carb setting.
90 percent it's one of the above. I personally would work them in the order that I typed them. Keep us posted please!
#69
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Thanks for checking out the video and making sense of what I was hearing.
Before I can mow again, next week, I have to get fresh gas. Will it be okay to mix the new with the little that's currently in the tank when I fill it up?
Spark plug was new in May and I've had it out and cleaned it/checked the gap a few times since then, but I'll get a new one if if the fresh gas doesn't do the trick. I replaced the CDI on Wednesday with a aftermarket one, but it ran fine at first. I still have the old CDI but because of the problem starting I was suspecting it of failing, but it's there if I need it. I don't recall seeing any rust on the flywheel magnets, but if I open it up I'll check for it.
I haven't done anything to the carb, but because it was leaking fuel I installed the shut-off valve as a immediate fix, but it probably needs to be cleaned and maybe even rebuilt.
Lawn looks superb. Very nice indeed.
OK, from what I can tell in that video (nice job by the way!) YOU ARE NOT backfiring. It's missing, skipping and surging. First take is that the surge is from the missing and hitting cycle that develops into a perceived surge but it's the skipping that begins the cycle onset.
Should be a simple fix as compared to a backfire.
First: FRESH FUEL!
Second: NEW SPARK PLUG. Check that plug! Is it new? I can't remember. For a few bucks, replace it if it is not new.
Third: MAGNETO AND FLYWHEEL. Is there RUST on the flywheel magnets? Sand it off. I'm helping a few guys here so forgive me if I got you mixed up, but didn't you just replace the magneto with an aftermarket CDI? Try your old CDI (if that was still working - can't remember) and see if the problem clears. These LawnBoy CDI modules are notorious for failure, sometimes out of the box. Especially aftermarket. That's why I go with the cheap 19 buck new style CDI at Amazon. If it fails in a few months, I'm ok with it. However, most will last for years. May not be your problem but if it started when you put the new CDI on, then this is highly suspect!
Forth: CARB ISSUE. Bad adjustment or poor venturi flow through a jet, bad float or needle valve. I think you just cleaned the carb? Did you replace the float and needle? Did you change the carb adjustment screw setting? There is an external screw with a spring that adjusts the carb setting.
90 percent it's one of the above. I personally would work them in the order that I typed them. Keep us posted please!
Thanks for checking out the video and making sense of what I was hearing.
Before I can mow again, next week, I have to get fresh gas. Will it be okay to mix the new with the little that's currently in the tank when I fill it up?
Spark plug was new in May and I've had it out and cleaned it/checked the gap a few times since then, but I'll get a new one if if the fresh gas doesn't do the trick. I replaced the CDI on Wednesday with a aftermarket one, but it ran fine at first. I still have the old CDI but because of the problem starting I was suspecting it of failing, but it's there if I need it. I don't recall seeing any rust on the flywheel magnets, but if I open it up I'll check for it.
I haven't done anything to the carb, but because it was leaking fuel I installed the shut-off valve as a immediate fix, but it probably needs to be cleaned and maybe even rebuilt.
#70
bt3
bt3
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
OK, I'm up to date with you again. Thanks for the recap.
Did the skipping issue start AFTER you installed the shutoff valve? Just a hunch that perhaps the valve is not flowing well and you are leaning the fuel flow somehow with it. That's a longshot. I'm just speculating outside the normal issues box.
Drain ALL of the old gas before you put new in. You want fresh gas from the getgo to diagnose if the gas is curing the problem. It is even possible there was a little moisture (water) in the old gas. I always run a few cap fulls of HEET Isopropyl (in the RED BOTTLE - NEVER the Ethyl in the YELLOW Bottle in a 2 stroke) to take water out of the gas. Heet also has a mild cleaner in it to help with carb cleaning on-going. I'm just going overboard here to help you diagnose ALL issues.
The Carb may be dirty, the float may be stuck and/or the needle valve may not be working properly. However, if these issues JUST started, the carb is the last thing I'd go to for issue. Servicing a carb on a LawnBoy 2 stroke is a walk in the park with a Cocker Spaniel! Really fairly easy. Lots of Youtube videos to help you out. But let's not go there yet.
Did anything happen to the air filter? Is the filter clean and lightly oiled?
Replace that plug. They are cheap as you know. I've heard issues lately with plugs failing quickly or right out of the box. For what it costs, even if it's not the plug, you can always use a spare hanging around. I've got a few. Why not.
In my motor, there is a small insert screen in the fuel line right where the fuel line connects to the carb. If your Duraforce has one, take it out and clean it with carb spray. I'd take that opportunity to carb cleaner spray the fuel inlet port. I'd spray a little in the air intake port. Can't hurt. Just don't overdo it.
That's about it. You've got some homework there and that should keep you busy over the weekend. I'll be on here all weekend if something crops up!
OK, I'm up to date with you again. Thanks for the recap.
Did the skipping issue start AFTER you installed the shutoff valve? Just a hunch that perhaps the valve is not flowing well and you are leaning the fuel flow somehow with it. That's a longshot. I'm just speculating outside the normal issues box.
Drain ALL of the old gas before you put new in. You want fresh gas from the getgo to diagnose if the gas is curing the problem. It is even possible there was a little moisture (water) in the old gas. I always run a few cap fulls of HEET Isopropyl (in the RED BOTTLE - NEVER the Ethyl in the YELLOW Bottle in a 2 stroke) to take water out of the gas. Heet also has a mild cleaner in it to help with carb cleaning on-going. I'm just going overboard here to help you diagnose ALL issues.
The Carb may be dirty, the float may be stuck and/or the needle valve may not be working properly. However, if these issues JUST started, the carb is the last thing I'd go to for issue. Servicing a carb on a LawnBoy 2 stroke is a walk in the park with a Cocker Spaniel! Really fairly easy. Lots of Youtube videos to help you out. But let's not go there yet.
Did anything happen to the air filter? Is the filter clean and lightly oiled?
Replace that plug. They are cheap as you know. I've heard issues lately with plugs failing quickly or right out of the box. For what it costs, even if it's not the plug, you can always use a spare hanging around. I've got a few. Why not.
In my motor, there is a small insert screen in the fuel line right where the fuel line connects to the carb. If your Duraforce has one, take it out and clean it with carb spray. I'd take that opportunity to carb cleaner spray the fuel inlet port. I'd spray a little in the air intake port. Can't hurt. Just don't overdo it.
That's about it. You've got some homework there and that should keep you busy over the weekend. I'll be on here all weekend if something crops up!
#71
P
Phototone
P
Phototone
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
The video indicates a very common surge issue with this model LawnBoy under no load or light load. Does it clear up when you get into the grass? When you put the engine under some load? If it does, then it is the common idle surge for this mower. If so, it can be fixed, if you so desire. Google for LawnBoy Duraforce Surge.
The video indicates a very common surge issue with this model LawnBoy under no load or light load. Does it clear up when you get into the grass? When you put the engine under some load? If it does, then it is the common idle surge for this mower. If so, it can be fixed, if you so desire. Google for LawnBoy Duraforce Surge.
#72
bt3
bt3
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
I see not only surging but mis-firing. I have a hunch the apparent surging is driven by the skipping and hitting issue.
I see not only surging but mis-firing. I have a hunch the apparent surging is driven by the skipping and hitting issue.
#73
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
On Wednesday, I got about 3/4 of the front/side yard cut when I went over a low spot next to my neighbor's fence and the mower started smoking and making those sounds. This was after mowing for about 20-30 minutes I guess. When I moved the throttle down to a slower speed I could get it to stop smoking and making the sounds, but if I increased the speed it started smoking and making the sound, so, I continued mowing at the slower speed. I don't usually run it wide open, but I did today because the grass was so long. So the short answer is yes, it started after I replaced the fuel line, shut-off valve and CDI, but not immediately. When I mowed yesterday morning (Friday) it was running like this from the get go.
I know that draining the old gas is probably what's best, but I don't really know what to do with it. If I can find something to put it in and store it, I'll drain it. Before anyone suggest that I pour it somewhere or let it sit and evaporate, I'll tell you that I'm not going to that. I forgot about Heet, my Dad used to put that in our cars in the winter when I was a kid. As an FYI, according to this site Does your gas additive contain alcohol and/or water absorbing ingredients? Heet contains alcohol and you as said absorbs water, so it may be doing more harm than good if alcohol (ethanol) is as bad on 2-cycle engines as they say.
I cleaned and oiled the air filter on August 18th, it was in good shape and as far as I know there isn't anything wrong with it.
As far as I know the only filters in the fuel system on a Duraforce are a permanent one in the fuel tank above the fuel outlet and a filter in the carb on the high speed jet/nozzle.
The first I noticed the surging was when it was sitting there while I made the video, but it may have been doing it under load as well and I didn't notice it because of the other sounds and the fact that it started suddenly. Hopefully when I get some fresh gas and cut the grass during the next week or so, I'll be able to tell you that all is well and the problem is gone, but if not I will make sure to notice if it's still surging under load. I've never had a problem with it surging before so I hope this doesn't continue.
There's definitely a misfire or something going on there and when it does it the mower "shakes".
OK, I'm up to date with you again. Thanks for the recap.
Did the skipping issue start AFTER you installed the shutoff valve? Just a hunch that perhaps the valve is not flowing well and you are leaning the fuel flow somehow with it. That's a longshot. I'm just speculating outside the normal issues box.
Drain ALL of the old gas before you put new in. You want fresh gas from the getgo to diagnose if the gas is curing the problem. It is even possible there was a little moisture (water) in the old gas. I always run a few cap fulls of HEET Isopropyl (in the RED BOTTLE - NEVER the Ethyl in the YELLOW Bottle in a 2 stroke) to take water out of the gas. Heet also has a mild cleaner in it to help with carb cleaning on-going. I'm just going overboard here to help you diagnose ALL issues.
The Carb may be dirty, the float may be stuck and/or the needle valve may not be working properly. However, if these issues JUST started, the carb is the last thing I'd go to for issue. Servicing a carb on a LawnBoy 2 stroke is a walk in the park with a Cocker Spaniel! Really fairly easy. Lots of Youtube videos to help you out. But let's not go there yet.
Did anything happen to the air filter? Is the filter clean and lightly oiled?
Replace that plug. They are cheap as you know. I've heard issues lately with plugs failing quickly or right out of the box. For what it costs, even if it's not the plug, you can always use a spare hanging around. I've got a few. Why not.
In my motor, there is a small insert screen in the fuel line right where the fuel line connects to the carb. If your Duraforce has one, take it out and clean it with carb spray. I'd take that opportunity to carb cleaner spray the fuel inlet port. I'd spray a little in the air intake port. Can't hurt. Just don't overdo it.
That's about it. You've got some homework there and that should keep you busy over the weekend. I'll be on here all weekend if something crops up!
On Wednesday, I got about 3/4 of the front/side yard cut when I went over a low spot next to my neighbor's fence and the mower started smoking and making those sounds. This was after mowing for about 20-30 minutes I guess. When I moved the throttle down to a slower speed I could get it to stop smoking and making the sounds, but if I increased the speed it started smoking and making the sound, so, I continued mowing at the slower speed. I don't usually run it wide open, but I did today because the grass was so long. So the short answer is yes, it started after I replaced the fuel line, shut-off valve and CDI, but not immediately. When I mowed yesterday morning (Friday) it was running like this from the get go.
I know that draining the old gas is probably what's best, but I don't really know what to do with it. If I can find something to put it in and store it, I'll drain it. Before anyone suggest that I pour it somewhere or let it sit and evaporate, I'll tell you that I'm not going to that. I forgot about Heet, my Dad used to put that in our cars in the winter when I was a kid. As an FYI, according to this site Does your gas additive contain alcohol and/or water absorbing ingredients? Heet contains alcohol and you as said absorbs water, so it may be doing more harm than good if alcohol (ethanol) is as bad on 2-cycle engines as they say.
I cleaned and oiled the air filter on August 18th, it was in good shape and as far as I know there isn't anything wrong with it.
As far as I know the only filters in the fuel system on a Duraforce are a permanent one in the fuel tank above the fuel outlet and a filter in the carb on the high speed jet/nozzle.
The video indicates a very common surge issue with this model LawnBoy under no load or light load. Does it clear up when you get into the grass? When you put the engine under some load? If it does, then it is the common idle surge for this mower. If so, it can be fixed, if you so desire. Google for LawnBoy Duraforce Surge.
The first I noticed the surging was when it was sitting there while I made the video, but it may have been doing it under load as well and I didn't notice it because of the other sounds and the fact that it started suddenly. Hopefully when I get some fresh gas and cut the grass during the next week or so, I'll be able to tell you that all is well and the problem is gone, but if not I will make sure to notice if it's still surging under load. I've never had a problem with it surging before so I hope this doesn't continue.
I see not only surging but mis-firing. I have a hunch the apparent surging is driven by the skipping and hitting issue.
There's definitely a misfire or something going on there and when it does it the mower "shakes".
#74
bt3
bt3
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
It is damn odd that these issues started AFTER your tune-up, but sometimes it DOES happen... by COINCIDENCE. Perhaps a piece of something got knocked loose and found its way to a jet and clogged it. Anything is possible with a mechanical device.
It sure sounds like a high speed jet problem. I don't have experience with your exact Carb, but I do know that a lot of issues can be cured with Seafoam.
OK, JUST A THOUGHT. I have two suggestions if you can't clear the issue as we previously addressed.
1.) Put some Seafoam in your tank (especially if you are not going to drain the old gas) and run it for a while. See if the high speed skipping quits. It may take a full tank to work for you. I'd run two full tanks with Seafoam. Don't go overboard with the mix. Perhaps 1 to 2 oz per tank full. Seafoam recommends 2 oz per gallon in 2 cycle engines. You don't want to lean out your gas/oil mix too much, but you do want enough to make sure things get clean.
2.) If #1 does not work, Pull the Carb and soak the Carb for 24 hours in a bowl of straight Seafoam. Shake it around when submerged in Seafoam to make sure it gets in to all the nooks and crannies and all the JETS. Reinstall and see if this helped.
I have a hunch that if it is a gummed or clogged jet, running Seafoam from your tank just may clear it. I recommend this to folks that are not comfortable tearing the carb completely apart. Removing a bowl and changing a float and needle valve is incredibly simple. I'd remove the bowl and the float and the needle and then soak the remaining carb body in Seafoam. While I was at it, I'd replace the float and needle. The kits are plentiful and cheap.
Regarding HEET, yes, it has Isopropyl Alcohol and cleaner solvents in it, but is is approved for 2 stroke engines. It will hot harm the engine or carb. It will clean out water droplets and cleans the jets on-going but not as well as Seafoam IMO. Yet, it's inexpensive and works good as a "preventative maintenance" additive. I run about 2 OZ of Heet per 2 gallons of gas/oil mix for maintenance. Same with Seafoam if you want, but with Seafoam they recommend 4 oz per 2 gallons. They both do about the same thing, but if I really want to "Clean" I use Seafoam.
There are two types of HEET additive. A red and a yellow bottle. NEVER use the yellow in a 2 cycle. That's Ethyl and it is very bad. The red bottle is Isopropyl and that is fine for 2 cycle hen used in proper amounts.
It is damn odd that these issues started AFTER your tune-up, but sometimes it DOES happen... by COINCIDENCE. Perhaps a piece of something got knocked loose and found its way to a jet and clogged it. Anything is possible with a mechanical device.
It sure sounds like a high speed jet problem. I don't have experience with your exact Carb, but I do know that a lot of issues can be cured with Seafoam.
OK, JUST A THOUGHT. I have two suggestions if you can't clear the issue as we previously addressed.
1.) Put some Seafoam in your tank (especially if you are not going to drain the old gas) and run it for a while. See if the high speed skipping quits. It may take a full tank to work for you. I'd run two full tanks with Seafoam. Don't go overboard with the mix. Perhaps 1 to 2 oz per tank full. Seafoam recommends 2 oz per gallon in 2 cycle engines. You don't want to lean out your gas/oil mix too much, but you do want enough to make sure things get clean.
2.) If #1 does not work, Pull the Carb and soak the Carb for 24 hours in a bowl of straight Seafoam. Shake it around when submerged in Seafoam to make sure it gets in to all the nooks and crannies and all the JETS. Reinstall and see if this helped.
I have a hunch that if it is a gummed or clogged jet, running Seafoam from your tank just may clear it. I recommend this to folks that are not comfortable tearing the carb completely apart. Removing a bowl and changing a float and needle valve is incredibly simple. I'd remove the bowl and the float and the needle and then soak the remaining carb body in Seafoam. While I was at it, I'd replace the float and needle. The kits are plentiful and cheap.
Regarding HEET, yes, it has Isopropyl Alcohol and cleaner solvents in it, but is is approved for 2 stroke engines. It will hot harm the engine or carb. It will clean out water droplets and cleans the jets on-going but not as well as Seafoam IMO. Yet, it's inexpensive and works good as a "preventative maintenance" additive. I run about 2 OZ of Heet per 2 gallons of gas/oil mix for maintenance. Same with Seafoam if you want, but with Seafoam they recommend 4 oz per 2 gallons. They both do about the same thing, but if I really want to "Clean" I use Seafoam.
There are two types of HEET additive. A red and a yellow bottle. NEVER use the yellow in a 2 cycle. That's Ethyl and it is very bad. The red bottle is Isopropyl and that is fine for 2 cycle hen used in proper amounts.
#75
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
I have to say that all of this is really messing with my mind. Over and over I read that ethanol in gas is a bad thing and that we should be using ethanol free gas, but then I read recommendations for products like Heet and Seafoam, both of which contain isopropyl alcohol. Since the gas I've been using for how many years (I don't know) contains ethanol, shouldn't it have done what the Heet and Seafoam are claiming to do? I'm not trying to be difficult here, but I just don't get it. :confused2:
It is damn odd that these issues started AFTER your tune-up, but sometimes it DOES happen... by COINCIDENCE. Perhaps a piece of something got knocked loose and found its way to a jet and clogged it. Anything is possible with a mechanical device.
It sure sounds like a high speed jet problem. I don't have experience with your exact Carb, but I do know that a lot of issues can be cured with Seafoam.
OK, JUST A THOUGHT. I have two suggestions if you can't clear the issue as we previously addressed.
1.) Put some Seafoam in your tank (especially if you are not going to drain the old gas) and run it for a while. See if the high speed skipping quits. It may take a full tank to work for you. I'd run two full tanks with Seafoam. Don't go overboard with the mix. Perhaps 1 to 2 oz per tank full. Seafoam recommends 2 oz per gallon in 2 cycle engines. You don't want to lean out your gas/oil mix too much, but you do want enough to make sure things get clean.
2.) If #1 does not work, Pull the Carb and soak the Carb for 24 hours in a bowl of straight Seafoam. Shake it around when submerged in Seafoam to make sure it gets in to all the nooks and crannies and all the JETS. Reinstall and see if this helped.
I have a hunch that if it is a gummed or clogged jet, running Seafoam from your tank just may clear it. I recommend this to folks that are not comfortable tearing the carb completely apart. Removing a bowl and changing a float and needle valve is incredibly simple. I'd remove the bowl and the float and the needle and then soak the remaining carb body in Seafoam. While I was at it, I'd replace the float and needle. The kits are plentiful and cheap.
Regarding HEET, yes, it has Isopropyl Alcohol and cleaner solvents in it, but is is approved for 2 stroke engines. It will hot harm the engine or carb. It will clean out water droplets and cleans the jets on-going but not as well as Seafoam IMO. Yet, it's inexpensive and works good as a "preventative maintenance" additive. I run about 2 OZ of Heet per 2 gallons of gas/oil mix for maintenance. Same with Seafoam if you want, but with Seafoam they recommend 4 oz per 2 gallons. They both do about the same thing, but if I really want to "Clean" I use Seafoam.
There are two types of HEET additive. A red and a yellow bottle. NEVER use the yellow in a 2 cycle. That's Ethyl and it is very bad. The red bottle is Isopropyl and that is fine for 2 cycle hen used in proper amounts.
I have to say that all of this is really messing with my mind. Over and over I read that ethanol in gas is a bad thing and that we should be using ethanol free gas, but then I read recommendations for products like Heet and Seafoam, both of which contain isopropyl alcohol. Since the gas I've been using for how many years (I don't know) contains ethanol, shouldn't it have done what the Heet and Seafoam are claiming to do? I'm not trying to be difficult here, but I just don't get it. :confused2:
#76
bt3
bt3
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Ethanol and Isoproply are two TOTALLY different chemical compounds. Over time Ethanol can contribute to problems in a 2 stroke, and pure Ethyl Alcohol (yellow Bottle of Heet) can cause gumming quickly.
ISOPROPYL alcohol simply combines with water, then mixes with gas and burns it up in combustion. No harm, no foul to a 2 stroke.
Adding small amounts of Red HEET (Isopropyl) to your 2 stroke will cause no issues. All it will do is help clean and take out moisture. Same with Seafoam. In small quantities it is safe. It's not just alcohol to combine with water, it's a fuel system cleaner. So no, Ethanol via your pump will not molecularly do the same thing as Heet or Seafoam. Ethanol tends to gum up a 2 stroke over time, Isoproply does not. Also, there are no CLEANING compounds added to Ethanol in gas. Seafoam and Heet RED bottle have carb and injector cleaners.
All this being said, we are all just giving you suggestions based on what we see and hear and read. The mower is missing and therefore surging. I believe the surging is being caused by the hit and miss cycle. This new behavior is AFTER your tune-up and adding a shutoff valve. Anything is possible. A small piece of something may have dislodged when you cut in the valve or a tiny piece of the valve may have got into the fuel flow and is now partially clogging a jet. There may be an issue with float, or needle, or jet adjustment. There may be an issue with spark. The new CDI may be fine at lower RPM but bad at high RPM. There may be an issue with a crank seal, or a reed, however, with no backfire, I am inclined to rule this out. There may be an issue with the spark plug. The exhaust port, or reed valves.
You have to go back to my previous post. These are what I would do in order;
First: FRESH FUEL!
Second: NEW SPARK PLUG. For a few bucks, replace it if it is not new.
Third: MAGNETO AND FLYWHEEL. Is there RUST on the flywheel magnets? Sand it off. May not be your problem but if it started when you put the new CDI on, then this is highly suspect! Put on that old CDI and try it.
Forth: CARB ISSUE. Bad adjustment or poor venturi flow through a jet, bad float or needle valve.
IF it ends up being a Carb issue, I thought I'd give you a quick way to try and clean the carb without total disassembly. The Seafoam trick sometimes works in the gas, and if not, usually works if you soak the carb in seafoam overnight.
WE are going to hope that it is not a Reed Valve (easy to check when the carb is off) or a crank seal problem. And we assume your Governor is working easily and freely and that the wind vane is traveling well.
I found this vid on Youtube for your mower on carb cleaning to fix hunting and surging issues. Not specifically your "missing" issue but a nice tutorial for taking off and cleaning the carb on a Duraforce, including bowl removal and float check.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5sYTvYQpI8
I have to say that all of this is really messing with my mind. Over and over I read that ethanol in gas is a bad thing and that we should be using ethanol free gas, but then I read recommendations for products like Heet and Seafoam, both of which contain isopropyl alcohol. Since the gas I've been using for how many years (I don't know) contains ethanol, shouldn't it have done what the Heet and Seafoam are claiming to do? I'm not trying to be difficult here, but I just don't get it. :confused2:
Ethanol and Isoproply are two TOTALLY different chemical compounds. Over time Ethanol can contribute to problems in a 2 stroke, and pure Ethyl Alcohol (yellow Bottle of Heet) can cause gumming quickly.
ISOPROPYL alcohol simply combines with water, then mixes with gas and burns it up in combustion. No harm, no foul to a 2 stroke.
Adding small amounts of Red HEET (Isopropyl) to your 2 stroke will cause no issues. All it will do is help clean and take out moisture. Same with Seafoam. In small quantities it is safe. It's not just alcohol to combine with water, it's a fuel system cleaner. So no, Ethanol via your pump will not molecularly do the same thing as Heet or Seafoam. Ethanol tends to gum up a 2 stroke over time, Isoproply does not. Also, there are no CLEANING compounds added to Ethanol in gas. Seafoam and Heet RED bottle have carb and injector cleaners.
All this being said, we are all just giving you suggestions based on what we see and hear and read. The mower is missing and therefore surging. I believe the surging is being caused by the hit and miss cycle. This new behavior is AFTER your tune-up and adding a shutoff valve. Anything is possible. A small piece of something may have dislodged when you cut in the valve or a tiny piece of the valve may have got into the fuel flow and is now partially clogging a jet. There may be an issue with float, or needle, or jet adjustment. There may be an issue with spark. The new CDI may be fine at lower RPM but bad at high RPM. There may be an issue with a crank seal, or a reed, however, with no backfire, I am inclined to rule this out. There may be an issue with the spark plug. The exhaust port, or reed valves.
You have to go back to my previous post. These are what I would do in order;
First: FRESH FUEL!
Second: NEW SPARK PLUG. For a few bucks, replace it if it is not new.
Third: MAGNETO AND FLYWHEEL. Is there RUST on the flywheel magnets? Sand it off. May not be your problem but if it started when you put the new CDI on, then this is highly suspect! Put on that old CDI and try it.
Forth: CARB ISSUE. Bad adjustment or poor venturi flow through a jet, bad float or needle valve.
IF it ends up being a Carb issue, I thought I'd give you a quick way to try and clean the carb without total disassembly. The Seafoam trick sometimes works in the gas, and if not, usually works if you soak the carb in seafoam overnight.
WE are going to hope that it is not a Reed Valve (easy to check when the carb is off) or a crank seal problem. And we assume your Governor is working easily and freely and that the wind vane is traveling well.
I found this vid on Youtube for your mower on carb cleaning to fix hunting and surging issues. Not specifically your "missing" issue but a nice tutorial for taking off and cleaning the carb on a Duraforce, including bowl removal and float check.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5sYTvYQpI8
#77
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
I've been having internet problems and having an awful time getting this site to load for the last three days and haven't been able to read or reply since sometime yesterday, hopefully it will be working better now.
Thank you for the explanation of isopropyl alcohol versus ethanol as this is all very confusing to someone like me. Since 2004 I've been using BP gas in my mower (which may or may not be E10 since Michigan doesn't require labeling) and according to their website:
I don't know how long their gas has had "Invigorate", but it sounds to me like it does have some cleaning properties. I imagine that whether or not that is sufficient could be subject to debate and it doesn't cover the removal of water like Heet, etc. but it might help in the long run.
I appreciate all your help and recommendations/suggestions.
Like I mentioned in my first message here, I don't really have any experience with internal combustion engines (2-cycle or otherwise). Until I downloaded the Service Manual I didn't even know where the carburetor was on my Lawn-Boy. When we have car problems we take our car to a mechanic as I have absolutely no interest in working on cars. Over the years I've heard how easy Lawn-Boy's are to work on and if it's something that can be done step by step that has "fixed" results like changing the plug, cleaning/oiling the air filter, replacing the CDI or replacing the fuel line and adding a shut-off valve, I feel I can handle it and I have.
The whole carburetor rebuilding I feel differently about, not because I couldn't take it apart, I could do that, but putting everything back "just right" so it works the way it's supposed to is "too variable" to me and I'm not sure I want to try. I'm sure that for those of you that do this kind of thing regularly that it's a "piece of cake" but for someone who's never done it before it can be a lot to take on.
I'm becoming weary of the problems with my Lawn-Boy as they've been ongoing since the early part of July and as much as I like my Lawn-Boy I'm thinking more and more about getting a new mower instead while I can find something on fall closeout. I haven't ruled out doing more work on the Lawn-Boy yet and I might try some of the other things I just don't know right now for sure as I'm rather frustrated by it. If/when I try something else I'll be sure to let you know.
Ethanol and Isoproply are two TOTALLY different chemical compounds. Over time Ethanol can contribute to problems in a 2 stroke, and pure Ethyl Alcohol (yellow Bottle of Heet) can cause gumming quickly.
ISOPROPYL alcohol simply combines with water, then mixes with gas and burns it up in combustion. No harm, no foul to a 2 stroke.
Adding small amounts of Red HEET (Isopropyl) to your 2 stroke will cause no issues. All it will do is help clean and take out moisture. Same with Seafoam. In small quantities it is safe. It's not just alcohol to combine with water, it's a fuel system cleaner. So no, Ethanol via your pump will not molecularly do the same thing as Heet or Seafoam. Ethanol tends to gum up a 2 stroke over time, Isoproply does not. Also, there are no CLEANING compounds added to Ethanol in gas. Seafoam and Heet RED bottle have carb and injector cleaners.
All this being said, we are all just giving you suggestions based on what we see and hear and read. The mower is missing and therefore surging. I believe the surging is being caused by the hit and miss cycle. This new behavior is AFTER your tune-up and adding a shutoff valve. Anything is possible. A small piece of something may have dislodged when you cut in the valve or a tiny piece of the valve may have got into the fuel flow and is now partially clogging a jet. There may be an issue with float, or needle, or jet adjustment. There may be an issue with spark. The new CDI may be fine at lower RPM but bad at high RPM. There may be an issue with a crank seal, or a reed, however, with no backfire, I am inclined to rule this out. There may be an issue with the spark plug. The exhaust port, or reed valves.
You have to go back to my previous post. These are what I would do in order;
First: FRESH FUEL!
Second: NEW SPARK PLUG. For a few bucks, replace it if it is not new.
Third: MAGNETO AND FLYWHEEL. Is there RUST on the flywheel magnets? Sand it off. May not be your problem but if it started when you put the new CDI on, then this is highly suspect! Put on that old CDI and try it.
Forth: CARB ISSUE. Bad adjustment or poor venturi flow through a jet, bad float or needle valve.
IF it ends up being a Carb issue, I thought I'd give you a quick way to try and clean the carb without total disassembly. The Seafoam trick sometimes works in the gas, and if not, usually works if you soak the carb in seafoam overnight.
WE are going to hope that it is not a Reed Valve (easy to check when the carb is off) or a crank seal problem. And we assume your Governor is working easily and freely and that the wind vane is traveling well.
I found this vid on Youtube for your mower on carb cleaning to fix hunting and surging issues. Not specifically your "missing" issue but a nice tutorial for taking off and cleaning the carb on a Duraforce, including bowl removal and float check.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5sYTvYQpI8
I've been having internet problems and having an awful time getting this site to load for the last three days and haven't been able to read or reply since sometime yesterday, hopefully it will be working better now.
Thank you for the explanation of isopropyl alcohol versus ethanol as this is all very confusing to someone like me. Since 2004 I've been using BP gas in my mower (which may or may not be E10 since Michigan doesn't require labeling) and according to their website:
All three grades of new BP gasoline with Invigorate have a unique formula that, with continuous use, helps clean critical engine parts and protects against deposits, corrosion and sludge formation. Results include cleaner engines that minimize exhaust emissions, experience smoother acceleration with less hesitation, and provide restored fuel economy.
I don't know how long their gas has had "Invigorate", but it sounds to me like it does have some cleaning properties. I imagine that whether or not that is sufficient could be subject to debate and it doesn't cover the removal of water like Heet, etc. but it might help in the long run.
I appreciate all your help and recommendations/suggestions.
Like I mentioned in my first message here, I don't really have any experience with internal combustion engines (2-cycle or otherwise). Until I downloaded the Service Manual I didn't even know where the carburetor was on my Lawn-Boy. When we have car problems we take our car to a mechanic as I have absolutely no interest in working on cars. Over the years I've heard how easy Lawn-Boy's are to work on and if it's something that can be done step by step that has "fixed" results like changing the plug, cleaning/oiling the air filter, replacing the CDI or replacing the fuel line and adding a shut-off valve, I feel I can handle it and I have.
The whole carburetor rebuilding I feel differently about, not because I couldn't take it apart, I could do that, but putting everything back "just right" so it works the way it's supposed to is "too variable" to me and I'm not sure I want to try. I'm sure that for those of you that do this kind of thing regularly that it's a "piece of cake" but for someone who's never done it before it can be a lot to take on.
I'm becoming weary of the problems with my Lawn-Boy as they've been ongoing since the early part of July and as much as I like my Lawn-Boy I'm thinking more and more about getting a new mower instead while I can find something on fall closeout. I haven't ruled out doing more work on the Lawn-Boy yet and I might try some of the other things I just don't know right now for sure as I'm rather frustrated by it. If/when I try something else I'll be sure to let you know.
#78
bt3
bt3
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Dewguy, I understand the frustration. 2 stroke small motors tend to be more finickey than 4 stroke. 2 stroke need good compression, a decent spark, the right fuel mix with fresh fuel, working Reed valves, a well adjusted carb, tight crank seals and a CLEAR exhaust route. They don't tolerate certain things like plugged exhaust very well.
On the flipside they are easy to work on, durable, and you don't have to worry about crankcase oil and seizing as long as you mix the 2 stroke oil correctly. They have way more HP per weight ratio and when they do run, they run like a bull with it's butt on fire. Nothing stops them.
I had to think back quite a few years ago, but I did have a problem a little like yours. And the problem was fuel starvation via the inline shutoff valve. It was partially clogged and trickling fuel rather than flowing it and the mower would surge, sputter and skip. I replaced the valve and all was good. Since your problems started when you put the inline valve in, did you monitor fuel flow through the valve? open it and let fuel run into a pan or jug. make sure it is flowing well. No restriction. No plugged vent hole in your gas cap.
Just a thought.
My previous emails covered all other bases pretty well I think. That Duraforce is one hellava machine. Hope you get it back to where you are happy with it. Perhaps there is a local guy near you that repairs small motors like Chain Saws so that has 2 stroke experience? Maybe he could help you for a nominal fee.
Keep us posted.
Dewguy, I understand the frustration. 2 stroke small motors tend to be more finickey than 4 stroke. 2 stroke need good compression, a decent spark, the right fuel mix with fresh fuel, working Reed valves, a well adjusted carb, tight crank seals and a CLEAR exhaust route. They don't tolerate certain things like plugged exhaust very well.
On the flipside they are easy to work on, durable, and you don't have to worry about crankcase oil and seizing as long as you mix the 2 stroke oil correctly. They have way more HP per weight ratio and when they do run, they run like a bull with it's butt on fire. Nothing stops them.
I had to think back quite a few years ago, but I did have a problem a little like yours. And the problem was fuel starvation via the inline shutoff valve. It was partially clogged and trickling fuel rather than flowing it and the mower would surge, sputter and skip. I replaced the valve and all was good. Since your problems started when you put the inline valve in, did you monitor fuel flow through the valve? open it and let fuel run into a pan or jug. make sure it is flowing well. No restriction. No plugged vent hole in your gas cap.
Just a thought.
My previous emails covered all other bases pretty well I think. That Duraforce is one hellava machine. Hope you get it back to where you are happy with it. Perhaps there is a local guy near you that repairs small motors like Chain Saws so that has 2 stroke experience? Maybe he could help you for a nominal fee.
Keep us posted.
#79
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Thanks for staying with me on this. I know how frustrating it can be when you're trying to help someone and they don't seem to be listening to what you're saying to them. I am listening and trying to understand all of this but it's not easy when you don't have the experience, it quickly overwhelms you.
I did not check fuel flow when I installed the new fuel line and shut-off valve, although before installing the shut-off valve I did blow on it in the open and closed position to see if it actually worked. I suppose it's possible that somewhere along the path from the tank to the carb it has become restricted, but I guess that would mean the blockage got past the built-in filter in the tank as it was running great for the first 20-30 minutes on Wednesday. Usually when I mow it get's wet around the vent hole in the gas cap and I believe it did on both Wednesday and Friday which I believe is an indication that's it's venting.
I'm not giving up on it yet as I will be getting some fresh gas in the next few days and will one way or another proceed from there. Updates to follow.
Dewguy, I understand the frustration. 2 stroke small motors tend to be more finickey than 4 stroke. 2 stroke need good compression, a decent spark, the right fuel mix with fresh fuel, working Reed valves, a well adjusted carb, tight crank seals and a CLEAR exhaust route. They don't tolerate certain things like plugged exhaust very well.
On the flipside they are easy to work on, durable, and you don't have to worry about crankcase oil and seizing as long as you mix the 2 stroke oil correctly. They have way more HP per weight ratio and when they do run, they run like a bull with it's butt on fire. Nothing stops them.
I had to think back quite a few years ago, but I did have a problem a little like yours. And the problem was fuel starvation via the inline shutoff valve. It was partially clogged and trickling fuel rather than flowing it and the mower would surge, sputter and skip. I replaced the valve and all was good. Since your problems started when you put the inline valve in, did you monitor fuel flow through the valve? open it and let fuel run into a pan or jug. make sure it is flowing well. No restriction. No plugged vent hole in your gas cap.
Just a thought.
My previous emails covered all other bases pretty well I think. That Duraforce is one hellava machine. Hope you get it back to where you are happy with it. Perhaps there is a local guy near you that repairs small motors like Chain Saws so that has 2 stroke experience? Maybe he could help you for a nominal fee.
Keep us posted.
Thanks for staying with me on this. I know how frustrating it can be when you're trying to help someone and they don't seem to be listening to what you're saying to them. I am listening and trying to understand all of this but it's not easy when you don't have the experience, it quickly overwhelms you.
I did not check fuel flow when I installed the new fuel line and shut-off valve, although before installing the shut-off valve I did blow on it in the open and closed position to see if it actually worked. I suppose it's possible that somewhere along the path from the tank to the carb it has become restricted, but I guess that would mean the blockage got past the built-in filter in the tank as it was running great for the first 20-30 minutes on Wednesday. Usually when I mow it get's wet around the vent hole in the gas cap and I believe it did on both Wednesday and Friday which I believe is an indication that's it's venting.
I'm not giving up on it yet as I will be getting some fresh gas in the next few days and will one way or another proceed from there. Updates to follow.
#80
beg
beg
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
dont waste your time with iso propyl or sea foam.It wont do anything.you need to remove the carb and clean the jets at which time you should drill out the jets with a micro drill bit set there are a few posts on this forum referring to the procedure.its worth the time to do it.you will see a great improvement in you mowers performance.your air induction tube is a necessary part as they would not have put it there if it was not needed.the induction tube works like a ram air scoop on a car scavenging forced air from the flywheel.if you take the carb off remove it as a unit not in two pieces as the govenor spring is hooked to the carb body.yes its a PIA but if you pay attention to detail its not that hard.
dont waste your time with iso propyl or sea foam.It wont do anything.you need to remove the carb and clean the jets at which time you should drill out the jets with a micro drill bit set there are a few posts on this forum referring to the procedure.its worth the time to do it.you will see a great improvement in you mowers performance.your air induction tube is a necessary part as they would not have put it there if it was not needed.the induction tube works like a ram air scoop on a car scavenging forced air from the flywheel.if you take the carb off remove it as a unit not in two pieces as the govenor spring is hooked to the carb body.yes its a PIA but if you pay attention to detail its not that hard.
#81
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
I've read where drilling out the jets is a sometimes fix for surging, but I don't think I'm ready to try rebuilding the carb just yet, plus, I never had surging before last Wednesday. I'm hoping that it's the stale gas and when I get fresh it will behave itself. I don't know what the air induction tube is, is that part #95?578 that Lawn-Boy calls a "Tunnel E"?
dont waste your time with iso propyl or sea foam.It wont do anything.you need to remove the carb and clean the jets at which time you should drill out the jets with a micro drill bit set there are a few posts on this forum referring to the procedure.its worth the time to do it.you will see a great improvement in you mowers performance.your air induction tube is a necessary part as they would not have put it there if it was not needed.the induction tube works like a ram air scoop on a car scavenging forced air from the flywheel.if you take the carb off remove it as a unit not in two pieces as the govenor spring is hooked to the carb body.yes its a PIA but if you pay attention to detail its not that hard.
I've read where drilling out the jets is a sometimes fix for surging, but I don't think I'm ready to try rebuilding the carb just yet, plus, I never had surging before last Wednesday. I'm hoping that it's the stale gas and when I get fresh it will behave itself. I don't know what the air induction tube is, is that part #95?578 that Lawn-Boy calls a "Tunnel E"?
#82
bt3
bt3
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Respectfully, I have to disagree. I'm sure you have a lot of experience with small motor repair, but so do I, and I can say that both products have extensively helped me with my mower repairs over the years, especially SeaFoam.
The carb on a L21ZSM is not easy to work on the jets, and they do clog. Originally took the carb off and soaked it in a bowl of SeaFoam overnight with SPECTACULAR results. Over the years, just putting SeaFoam in the tank (up to 2 oz per gallon as per SeaFoam recommendation for 2 stroke) also clears my carb issues.
Will it ALWAYS work? Of course not. Has it worked very well for me? Yes. It's been miraculous, actually. So, if you are uncomfortable with taking off the carb, there is nothing wrong with TRYING to run some SeaFoam through your carb via gas tank mix.
SeaFoam also adds stability to gas, so now I put in 3 oz per 2 gallons in my mixed gas can and have not had a carb issue since.
It's so easy to get tiny pieces of whatever into your fuel tank in a walk behind mower, at least some additives give you a chance to keep things clear.
YMMV. I have no connection with SeaFoam or Heet. Just a happy user.
dont waste your time with iso propyl or sea foam.It wont do anything.you need to remove the carb and clean the jets at which time you should drill out the jets with a micro drill bit set there are a few posts on this forum referring to the procedure.its worth the time to do it.you will see a great improvement in you mowers performance.your air induction tube is a necessary part as they would not have put it there if it was not needed.the induction tube works like a ram air scoop on a car scavenging forced air from the flywheel.if you take the carb off remove it as a unit not in two pieces as the govenor spring is hooked to the carb body.yes its a PIA but if you pay attention to detail its not that hard.
Respectfully, I have to disagree. I'm sure you have a lot of experience with small motor repair, but so do I, and I can say that both products have extensively helped me with my mower repairs over the years, especially SeaFoam.
The carb on a L21ZSM is not easy to work on the jets, and they do clog. Originally took the carb off and soaked it in a bowl of SeaFoam overnight with SPECTACULAR results. Over the years, just putting SeaFoam in the tank (up to 2 oz per gallon as per SeaFoam recommendation for 2 stroke) also clears my carb issues.
Will it ALWAYS work? Of course not. Has it worked very well for me? Yes. It's been miraculous, actually. So, if you are uncomfortable with taking off the carb, there is nothing wrong with TRYING to run some SeaFoam through your carb via gas tank mix.
SeaFoam also adds stability to gas, so now I put in 3 oz per 2 gallons in my mixed gas can and have not had a carb issue since.
It's so easy to get tiny pieces of whatever into your fuel tank in a walk behind mower, at least some additives give you a chance to keep things clear.
YMMV. I have no connection with SeaFoam or Heet. Just a happy user.
#83
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Well, I removed the old stale fuel mix from the fuel tank, got some fresh gas, mixed it up, filled the tank...and it's still running badly at the faster speeds. :frown: I don't know what I'll try next (but thanks to you guys I've got plenty of options) or when I'll try it but when I do I'll report back and let everyone know if I've made any progress.
Well, I removed the old stale fuel mix from the fuel tank, got some fresh gas, mixed it up, filled the tank...and it's still running badly at the faster speeds. :frown: I don't know what I'll try next (but thanks to you guys I've got plenty of options) or when I'll try it but when I do I'll report back and let everyone know if I've made any progress.
#84
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Well, I pulled the fuel line off the carb today to check the fuel flow. The shut-off valve was turned to off, so I wasn't expecting any fuel to come out of the fuel line but it did before I could get a container under it, just a little on to the deck and it was brown colored. Putting a container under the end of the hose and turning on the shut-off valve the fuel began to flow quickly, brownish at first but quickly turning clear (no longer brown). I'd say the flow is unobstructed as it was coming at maybe an ounce a second (give or take). Was the initial fuel that spilled out of the hose brown because it had discolored from sitting in the hose or something else? Should I be concerned about this?
Next I replaced the Champion RCJ8Y (non-resistor plug) that I'd been using since May with a new NGK BPMR4A (resistor plug). After priming it started up on the first pull...however, it's still running badly at higher speeds. :frown: I don't use it at more than half throttle normally so I'm not really sure how much more effort I'm going to expend on this. The only other thing that's been recommended to me (other than the carb cleaning/rebuilding) is to take off the new CDI and put the old one back on to see if it makes a difference. Since I think the old CDI was on it's way out I'm not sure I want to expend the effort on it, but if I do I'll be sure to let everyone know how it turns out.
Right now it's not leaking fuel from the carb with it's newly installed fuel line and shut-off valve, it starts on the first pull with it's newly installed CDI and spark plug and is cleaner than it's been in a long time so I think I've come out ahead. Oh yeah, I still have a Lawn-Boy. :smile:
Well, I pulled the fuel line off the carb today to check the fuel flow. The shut-off valve was turned to off, so I wasn't expecting any fuel to come out of the fuel line but it did before I could get a container under it, just a little on to the deck and it was brown colored. Putting a container under the end of the hose and turning on the shut-off valve the fuel began to flow quickly, brownish at first but quickly turning clear (no longer brown). I'd say the flow is unobstructed as it was coming at maybe an ounce a second (give or take). Was the initial fuel that spilled out of the hose brown because it had discolored from sitting in the hose or something else? Should I be concerned about this?
Next I replaced the Champion RCJ8Y (non-resistor plug) that I'd been using since May with a new NGK BPMR4A (resistor plug). After priming it started up on the first pull...however, it's still running badly at higher speeds. :frown: I don't use it at more than half throttle normally so I'm not really sure how much more effort I'm going to expend on this. The only other thing that's been recommended to me (other than the carb cleaning/rebuilding) is to take off the new CDI and put the old one back on to see if it makes a difference. Since I think the old CDI was on it's way out I'm not sure I want to expend the effort on it, but if I do I'll be sure to let everyone know how it turns out.
Right now it's not leaking fuel from the carb with it's newly installed fuel line and shut-off valve, it starts on the first pull with it's newly installed CDI and spark plug and is cleaner than it's been in a long time so I think I've come out ahead. Oh yeah, I still have a Lawn-Boy. :smile:
#85
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Well the weather was finally cooperating so I removed the new CDI, cleaned the rust off the old CDI and installed it. I made 4 attempts to start it, each attempt involving priming (3 presses) and pulling the cord 3-4 times to a great big nothing. It didn't even try to start, so, I guess that confirms that the old CDI is dead. I put the new one back on and on the 1st pull without priming it started. Only took me half the time to take the old CDI off and put the new one back on as it did to take the new off and put the old one back on. I guess I'm getting better at being a mechanic. :smile:
I also made a discovery while cutting the grass today. If I moved the speed lever all the way to the choke position and then pulled it back to the fast position (like you would do when start it) it would run badly. However, if I moved the speed lever all the way to the choke position and then pulled it back to the slow position and then pushed it back up to fast it would run like I remember it running, any ideas why this would make a difference?
Changing out the CDI was the last of my trouble shooting attempts. I know the carb needs a cleaning and a rebuilding, but since the weather here has taken a turn for the worse and doesn't seem to be going to get any better in the near future I'm probably going to wait on that 'til next spring when the weather will hopefully be better.
Thanks to everyone who has offered up help as I've learned a lot and become a better mechanic because of it.
Well the weather was finally cooperating so I removed the new CDI, cleaned the rust off the old CDI and installed it. I made 4 attempts to start it, each attempt involving priming (3 presses) and pulling the cord 3-4 times to a great big nothing. It didn't even try to start, so, I guess that confirms that the old CDI is dead. I put the new one back on and on the 1st pull without priming it started. Only took me half the time to take the old CDI off and put the new one back on as it did to take the new off and put the old one back on. I guess I'm getting better at being a mechanic. :smile:
I also made a discovery while cutting the grass today. If I moved the speed lever all the way to the choke position and then pulled it back to the fast position (like you would do when start it) it would run badly. However, if I moved the speed lever all the way to the choke position and then pulled it back to the slow position and then pushed it back up to fast it would run like I remember it running, any ideas why this would make a difference?
Changing out the CDI was the last of my trouble shooting attempts. I know the carb needs a cleaning and a rebuilding, but since the weather here has taken a turn for the worse and doesn't seem to be going to get any better in the near future I'm probably going to wait on that 'til next spring when the weather will hopefully be better.
Thanks to everyone who has offered up help as I've learned a lot and become a better mechanic because of it.
#86
bt3
bt3
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Hey Dew, sounds like my machine regarding the throttle manipulation.
You definitely need to clean that carb and rebuild it. It's not a big deal really, something you can putter around with over the winter. Get a rebuild kit and soak that WHOLE CARB in a bowl of cleaner. As previously posted, I prefer Seafoam, but other cleaners would work. It sounds like you have a float/needle/jet issue, and possibly a mixture ratio issue. If I was there, I'd be able to diagnose and fix it in a day for you, but you'll get it, I'm sure. That mower is worth the work.
My machine was doing the same thing as I stated regarding throttle manipulation. On my carb, you can't get at all the internal jets, so I soaked it overnight in a bowl of cleaner and the next day blew it out with compressed air. Voila! Ran like a top. Some guys would suspect that your CDI HIGH SPEED side mag is bad *the CDI has a start side and a high speed side mag), but I suspect fuel issues first and foremost. These machines are finickey and yes, you can have a leaking reed valve or crank seal that will cause similar issues, but in your case, I suspect carb. It would not hurt to start adding 4 oz of a cleaner like SeaFoam to every 2 gallons of fuel mix. Works wonders for me. It's an excellent fuel stabilizer, so if nothing else, it will help keep your fuel fresh. At best, it will clean out any debris you have in your carb.
In case someone is reading this thread and has similar issues, again I'll list what I'd do and have seen on Lawnboy with regard to starting and poor running - loss of power issues;
1.) CDI Magneto bad, poorly gaped or a failing start or high speed side or both on the Mag, Spark plug dirty/gaped poorly or inoperative
2.) Exhaust ports/muffler clogged (2 stroke lawnboys do NOT tolerate clogged exhaust well)
3.) Carb issues. Clogged jets, mixture set improperly, float or needle valve issues. Make sure throttle is working, choke is closing and governor spring is relaxing on full throttle
4.) Reed Valves sticking or broken - take off carb and inspect them
5.) Crank seals leaking or worn out completely - gas/oil seeping out of the bottom crank is a sure sign
6.) Governor not set properly or not operating well. Set RPM around 3,200 RPM at high speed (F Engines). Make sure Governor Vane is swiveling well and freely and that the adjustment is working. Keep the swivel area clean and lightly oiled
7.) Poor compression issues that can come from some items listed above or from worn Piston rings
8.) Stale or bad gas, bad Gas/Oil mixture ratio, water in gas, contaminants in gas
9.) Clogged or dirty air filter - clean thoroughly and lightly oil
10.) Clogged Vent cap on gas tank filler cap, clogged fuel line, or fuel line shutoff valve
These are my top 10 issues that I suspect on my Lawnboy F-Engine. Of course there can be other deeper issues, but home mechanics can check these and make sure they are all up to snuff. Then if there is STILL issues, you call out the big guns or have a shop look at it.
Hey Dew, sounds like my machine regarding the throttle manipulation.
You definitely need to clean that carb and rebuild it. It's not a big deal really, something you can putter around with over the winter. Get a rebuild kit and soak that WHOLE CARB in a bowl of cleaner. As previously posted, I prefer Seafoam, but other cleaners would work. It sounds like you have a float/needle/jet issue, and possibly a mixture ratio issue. If I was there, I'd be able to diagnose and fix it in a day for you, but you'll get it, I'm sure. That mower is worth the work.
My machine was doing the same thing as I stated regarding throttle manipulation. On my carb, you can't get at all the internal jets, so I soaked it overnight in a bowl of cleaner and the next day blew it out with compressed air. Voila! Ran like a top. Some guys would suspect that your CDI HIGH SPEED side mag is bad *the CDI has a start side and a high speed side mag), but I suspect fuel issues first and foremost. These machines are finickey and yes, you can have a leaking reed valve or crank seal that will cause similar issues, but in your case, I suspect carb. It would not hurt to start adding 4 oz of a cleaner like SeaFoam to every 2 gallons of fuel mix. Works wonders for me. It's an excellent fuel stabilizer, so if nothing else, it will help keep your fuel fresh. At best, it will clean out any debris you have in your carb.
In case someone is reading this thread and has similar issues, again I'll list what I'd do and have seen on Lawnboy with regard to starting and poor running - loss of power issues;
1.) CDI Magneto bad, poorly gaped or a failing start or high speed side or both on the Mag, Spark plug dirty/gaped poorly or inoperative
2.) Exhaust ports/muffler clogged (2 stroke lawnboys do NOT tolerate clogged exhaust well)
3.) Carb issues. Clogged jets, mixture set improperly, float or needle valve issues. Make sure throttle is working, choke is closing and governor spring is relaxing on full throttle
4.) Reed Valves sticking or broken - take off carb and inspect them
5.) Crank seals leaking or worn out completely - gas/oil seeping out of the bottom crank is a sure sign
6.) Governor not set properly or not operating well. Set RPM around 3,200 RPM at high speed (F Engines). Make sure Governor Vane is swiveling well and freely and that the adjustment is working. Keep the swivel area clean and lightly oiled
7.) Poor compression issues that can come from some items listed above or from worn Piston rings
8.) Stale or bad gas, bad Gas/Oil mixture ratio, water in gas, contaminants in gas
9.) Clogged or dirty air filter - clean thoroughly and lightly oil
10.) Clogged Vent cap on gas tank filler cap, clogged fuel line, or fuel line shutoff valve
These are my top 10 issues that I suspect on my Lawnboy F-Engine. Of course there can be other deeper issues, but home mechanics can check these and make sure they are all up to snuff. Then if there is STILL issues, you call out the big guns or have a shop look at it.
#87
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
I've also thought that it may be that the new CDI is defective on the high speed portion of it, but the only way to determine that now is to purchase another CDI. I was hoping that the old one would work at least one more time to determine if that was the case or not, but it's apparently dead now.
Lawn-Boy states in the E Series Service Manual to not soak the carb, to only leave it in the cleaner long enough to clean it. As to cleaning/rebuilding the carb, there's a possibility that I might be able to do it before the weather gets much worse. For that to happen I would need to get the necessary parts and supplies to have on hand when a nice day presented itself. Right now I'm feeling like I've had enough of playing mechanic and would probably be more likely to want to do it in the spring. I can't do it during the winter as the only place I would have to work would be in the house and I don't think that's a good idea.
Hey Dew, sounds like my machine regarding the throttle manipulation.
You definitely need to clean that carb and rebuild it. It's not a big deal really, something you can putter around with over the winter. Get a rebuild kit and soak that WHOLE CARB in a bowl of cleaner. As previously posted, I prefer Seafoam, but other cleaners would work. It sounds like you have a float/needle/jet issue, and possibly a mixture ratio issue. If I was there, I'd be able to diagnose and fix it in a day for you, but you'll get it, I'm sure. That mower is worth the work.
My machine was doing the same thing as I stated regarding throttle manipulation. On my carb, you can't get at all the internal jets, so I soaked it overnight in a bowl of cleaner and the next day blew it out with compressed air. Voila! Ran like a top. Some guys would suspect that your CDI HIGH SPEED side mag is bad *the CDI has a start side and a high speed side mag), but I suspect fuel issues first and foremost. These machines are finickey and yes, you can have a leaking reed valve or crank seal that will cause similar issues, but in your case, I suspect carb. It would not hurt to start adding 4 oz of a cleaner like SeaFoam to every 2 gallons of fuel mix. Works wonders for me. It's an excellent fuel stabilizer, so if nothing else, it will help keep your fuel fresh. At best, it will clean out any debris you have in your carb.
In case someone is reading this thread and has similar issues, again I'll list what I'd do and have seen on Lawnboy with regard to starting and poor running - loss of power issues;
1.) CDI Magneto bad, poorly gaped or a failing start or high speed side or both on the Mag, Spark plug dirty/gaped poorly or inoperative
2.) Exhaust ports/muffler clogged (2 stroke lawnboys do NOT tolerate clogged exhaust well)
3.) Carb issues. Clogged jets, mixture set improperly, float or needle valve issues. Make sure throttle is working, choke is closing and governor spring is relaxing on full throttle
4.) Reed Valves sticking or broken - take off carb and inspect them
5.) Crank seals leaking or worn out completely - gas/oil seeping out of the bottom crank is a sure sign
6.) Governor not set properly or not operating well. Set RPM around 3,200 RPM at high speed (F Engines). Make sure Governor Vane is swiveling well and freely and that the adjustment is working. Keep the swivel area clean and lightly oiled
7.) Poor compression issues that can come from some items listed above or from worn Piston rings
8.) Stale or bad gas, bad Gas/Oil mixture ratio, water in gas, contaminants in gas
9.) Clogged or dirty air filter - clean thoroughly and lightly oil
10.) Clogged Vent cap on gas tank filler cap, clogged fuel line, or fuel line shutoff valve
These are my top 10 issues that I suspect on my Lawnboy F-Engine. Of course there can be other deeper issues, but home mechanics can check these and make sure they are all up to snuff. Then if there is STILL issues, you call out the big guns or have a shop look at it.
I've also thought that it may be that the new CDI is defective on the high speed portion of it, but the only way to determine that now is to purchase another CDI. I was hoping that the old one would work at least one more time to determine if that was the case or not, but it's apparently dead now.
Lawn-Boy states in the E Series Service Manual to not soak the carb, to only leave it in the cleaner long enough to clean it. As to cleaning/rebuilding the carb, there's a possibility that I might be able to do it before the weather gets much worse. For that to happen I would need to get the necessary parts and supplies to have on hand when a nice day presented itself. Right now I'm feeling like I've had enough of playing mechanic and would probably be more likely to want to do it in the spring. I can't do it during the winter as the only place I would have to work would be in the house and I don't think that's a good idea.
#88
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
On the advice of bt3 and others I bought a can of Seafoam even though I thought the claims were "too good to be true". Since I had about a half a tank of gas in the mower and only a quart to quart and half left in my gas can I added 1/2 ounce of Seafoam to the tank and filled it up. Since the temp was around 50 and the mower hadn't been used in almost 2 weeks I had to prime it twice and it started on the first pull after the 2nd priming and ran normally. It was no longer surging and skipping (or whatever it was doing) at medium to high speeds. It's back to running like it did before I did the work on it and I guess I owe it to Seafoam. :smile:
On the advice of bt3 and others I bought a can of Seafoam even though I thought the claims were "too good to be true". Since I had about a half a tank of gas in the mower and only a quart to quart and half left in my gas can I added 1/2 ounce of Seafoam to the tank and filled it up. Since the temp was around 50 and the mower hadn't been used in almost 2 weeks I had to prime it twice and it started on the first pull after the 2nd priming and ran normally. It was no longer surging and skipping (or whatever it was doing) at medium to high speeds. It's back to running like it did before I did the work on it and I guess I owe it to Seafoam. :smile:
#89
guitardude1998
guitardude1998
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
just wondering I have the same model does yours have the high rear wheels
just wondering I have the same model does yours have the high rear wheels
#90
guitardude1998
guitardude1998
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
I have to shut off the fuel to mine or it leaks out of the air filter and the muffler and it runs like crap till I empty out the carb bowl
I have to shut off the fuel to mine or it leaks out of the air filter and the muffler and it runs like crap till I empty out the carb bowl
#91
bt3
bt3
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
I've had very good luck with Seafoam. And as I said, if nothing else, it's a great fuel stabilizer. A friend of mine who runs a racing production company swears by it. He has it on hand for all his motors, and especially his generators.
Always worth a try. It can free a clog or push out water in you engine.
Glad you are back to where that awesome mower belongs - Running like a champ :thumbsup:
On the advice of bt3 and others I bought a can of Seafoam even though I thought the claims were "too good to be true". Since I had about a half a tank of gas in the mower and only a quart to quart and half left in my gas can I added 1/2 ounce of Seafoam to the tank and filled it up. Since the temp was around 50 and the mower hadn't been used in almost 2 weeks I had to prime it twice and it started on the first pull after the 2nd priming and ran normally. It was no longer surging and skipping (or whatever it was doing) at medium to high speeds. It's back to running like it did before I did the work on it and I guess I owe it to Seafoam. :smile:
I've had very good luck with Seafoam. And as I said, if nothing else, it's a great fuel stabilizer. A friend of mine who runs a racing production company swears by it. He has it on hand for all his motors, and especially his generators.
Always worth a try. It can free a clog or push out water in you engine.
Glad you are back to where that awesome mower belongs - Running like a champ :thumbsup:
#92
dewguy1999
dewguy1999
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
Nope, the back wheels are larger than those in front, but are not the high rear wheels that are on your Lawn-Boy. Here's a old pic of mine (2007):
If you read this thread from the beginning you'll see that I had the same problem as well as a failing CDI (coil) that were causing me all kinds of grief this summer. Hopefully come spring I'll clean and rebuild the carb to eliminate the fuel leaking caused by a bad needle and seat.
bt3 thanks for recommending Seafoam. As I wrote in another thread, Seafoam having a unlimited shelf life as well as providing up to 2 years of stability is a big selling point that I don't think many people are aware of and instead use Sta-bil which doesn't have a unlimited shelf life. The net is full of debate as to whether or not fuel additives actually do something or are just snake oil, in my case I bought it to act as a stabilizer and if it did the other things it claims then that was just a "cherry on top" and as it turned out it did help with my running problem, so I'm a happy camper.
Looks like next week I'll do the last mowing of the season and then put it into storage for what I'm hoping won't be a long, cold Michigan winter with lots of snow like last year.
just wondering I have the same model does yours have the high rear wheels
Nope, the back wheels are larger than those in front, but are not the high rear wheels that are on your Lawn-Boy. Here's a old pic of mine (2007):
I have to shut off the fuel to mine or it leaks out of the air filter and the muffler and it runs like crap till I empty out the carb bowl
If you read this thread from the beginning you'll see that I had the same problem as well as a failing CDI (coil) that were causing me all kinds of grief this summer. Hopefully come spring I'll clean and rebuild the carb to eliminate the fuel leaking caused by a bad needle and seat.
I've had very good luck with Seafoam. And as I said, if nothing else, it's a great fuel stabilizer. A friend of mine who runs a racing production company swears by it. He has it on hand for all his motors, and especially his generators.
Always worth a try. It can free a clog or push out water in you engine.
Glad you are back to where that awesome mower belongs - Running like a champ :thumbsup:
bt3 thanks for recommending Seafoam. As I wrote in another thread, Seafoam having a unlimited shelf life as well as providing up to 2 years of stability is a big selling point that I don't think many people are aware of and instead use Sta-bil which doesn't have a unlimited shelf life. The net is full of debate as to whether or not fuel additives actually do something or are just snake oil, in my case I bought it to act as a stabilizer and if it did the other things it claims then that was just a "cherry on top" and as it turned out it did help with my running problem, so I'm a happy camper.
Looks like next week I'll do the last mowing of the season and then put it into storage for what I'm hoping won't be a long, cold Michigan winter with lots of snow like last year.
#93
guitardude1998
guitardude1998
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
turfboy could that be the issue with mine I have the same mower and if I don't shut off the gas valve it floods the carb and runs like its on low speed constantly till I empty and clean the carb
turfboy could that be the issue with mine I have the same mower and if I don't shut off the gas valve it floods the carb and runs like its on low speed constantly till I empty and clean the carb
#94
primerbulb120
primerbulb120
Re: Help: Lawn-Boy 21" SilverPro Series, 10247, DuraForce (2-cycle) behaving badly
You might want to replace the carburetor altogether, in which case the part number is 107-4607. Look for it on Amazon.com or on eBay. If you can't find it there it is available for sale at jackssmallengines.com.
You might want to replace the carburetor altogether, in which case the part number is 107-4607. Look for it on Amazon.com or on eBay. If you can't find it there it is available for sale at jackssmallengines.com.