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Having Starter problem, among other things

#1

L

ljms

Hi All, This is going to be a long post, please bear with me. :)My Grandkids acquired a 2012 Bolens, model13w1762F065. This is a 38" lawnmower with a B&S 13.5hp. When they got it the deck was pretty much shot and they wanted it just to drive around and use as a tractor and just something to drive around the yard and mud around. They had it for quite some time when it started to be hard starting. They would jump start it but with the battery alone it would stop when it hit the top of the compression stroke and not turn over enough to start. I figured a bad battery, wrong. Same thing with a brand new battery. But this whole time it would turn over very fast when I removed the spark plug. So Google says valve adjustment. Did that twice along the way to just be sure I got it right. That didn't work So I thought perhaps a bad starter. So I took it to a starter repair shop and when he took it apart he said it shows absolutely no signs whatsoever of a bad starter. He said it looked like it was new, no burn marks , carbon dust or signs of a heated starter or windings. He said he could sell me a new one but he was absolutely sure the starter wasn't the problem. He told me to take a voltage reading at the starter when trying to start it.He says there should be very little drop in voltage. Well It showed 12.7 volts at the battery and 2.6 at the starter. So it seems like I am losing voltage somewhere. So I jumped the starter directly from the battery and it did the same thing, wouldn't crank pass the compression stroke.
I am really at a loss. I originally was going to by-pass the safety switches since the deck is no longer on it. Several Google searches point to the solenoid. So looking for the solenoid I found it in the most un-accessible areaup under the seat among all the rods and linkage. So I have removed it along with the wiring harness so I could check it out. Now I am convinced I need to get down to the bare bones wiring, just enough to start, run, and shut off when it supposed to. My question , Is there any hope of getting the wiring down to some thing more basic? I need a starting, charging, ignition, and carburetor solenoid. Is it possible or a waste of time? Thanks for your help and input.
LaVern


#2

B

bertsmobile1

The decompressor is not working
Take the rocker cover off remove the spark plug and do 2 full rotations of the engine.
watch the rockers.
You should see one of them open very slightly just before TDC on the compression stroke.
If this is not happeningand the valve lash is set correctly then the cam is shot and needs to be replaced.
However triple check you have adjusted the valves properly .


#3

L

ljms

Hi, Thanks for the info. I thought I did get the valves adjusted right, but..... Do you not bring the piston up to TDC with both rocker arms loose showing it is on TDC? Or where should the piston be when adjusting the valves? I watched a couple of videos and maybe that's where I went wrong. I thought TDC was where the adjustments were made. Speaking of settings, is .003 intake, .oo4 exhaust correct? Thanks again. Will appreciate any clarification.
LaVern


#4

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

while most engine makers do have a recommended valve lash adjusting procedure, I've done it this way with never a problem.
Intake valve OPEN (intake spring depressed) adjust EXHAUST, exhaust valve open, (exhaust spring depressed) adjust intake.


#5

B

bertsmobile1

Yes.
For Briggs the factory recommendation is 1/4" past TDC on compression stroke ( both rockers loose )
I usually watch the valves and when the inlet closes you are the compression stroke.
Some times the valve lash can be huge or there can be crud holding a valve open so just relying on a loose rocker is not good enough


#6

L

ljms

Again thanks for all the input. One thing that has been addressed is the drop in voltage at the starter. Should there be such a sharp decrease. From 12.7 to 2.6 volts seems to be drastic, and in my mind points to a short somewhere in the wiring? Of course it could mean something completely different and if so please feel free to educate me.

Also how complicated is it to rewire the mower using only the bare necessities and eliminate all the switches that are no longer needed? Thanks again for your help, all input is greatly appreciated.
LaVern

P.S. I am not getting email notifications for these responses. I think I have my preferences set up to receive them but so far I have only seen these by coming back to the forum.
LJS


#7

L

ljms

I see now that I mis-typed in the above posting. I typed ,"One thing that has been addressed is the drop in voltage at the starter. " Should have read, "hasn't " been addressed yet. So I'll try again. Is a voltage drop of 12.7 to 2.6 volts normal? The way I measured it was clipping the positive lead of voltage meter on the terminal on the starter, and the negative lead to ground and watched the meter when I tried to crank it. I think that is what the starter repair guy said to do it. Again thanks for your jelp.
LaVern


#8

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

To do a starter voltage drop test there are 2 tests, the positive and the ground. To test the positve you connect the voltmeter to the terminal on the starter and the positive BATTERY TERMINAL not the bolt or the ring connector. Crank the starter and note the voltage. Should be less than .4 volt. To check the ground you connect the meter to the frame of the starter and the negative BATTERY TERMINAL. Then crank the starter and check the voltage. Should be less than .2 volt. What you are checking is the condition of the high current connections between the battery and the starter. The higher the voltage reading the worse the connection is. The difference of expected readings is because there is usually a slightly higher voltage reading because of current going through the starting relay or solenoid.


#9

L

ljms

Thank you. So if I understand you correctly, I have a good connection and no loss of voltage? I guess it is all black magic because I thought, and as did the starter repairman, that the voltage at the starter terminal should be just slightly less than the voltage across the battery terminals. You are saying that the way I am checking it,the higher the voltage at the starter terminal the worse the connections?? Doesn't make sense to me. When the starter key is turned, it should be sending voltage to the terminal to activate the starter. The higher the voltage, the better? So I thought. I guess I've always been under the impression that voltage was measured between positive and negative, amperage was measured inline the way you describe. Ok, again thanks.
LaVern


#10

K

keakar

bertsmobile1 said:
The decompressor is not working
Take the rocker cover off remove the spark plug and do 2 full rotations of the engine.
watch the rockers.
You should see one of them open very slightly just before TDC on the compression stroke.
If this is not happeningand the valve lash is set correctly then the cam is shot and needs to be replaced.
However triple check you have adjusted the valves properly .
Click to expand...
this ^^^^^^

they have a compression release lever on the cam and they are well known to break and fall off, confirm its not bumping open the intake valve (a tiny little extra bump is all it is) so watch carefully for it as you rotate the engine by hand

when its not working the engine will stop dry at the top of the compression stroke because the starters are not strong enough to overcome it

the cam kits with everything you need to fix it are like $75


#11

L

ljms

Thanks Bertsmobile. I haven't had much time to get back to it these last few days. In the last few posts I have been trying to figure out the electrics and how they work. I hopefully will get back to on hands by the weekend. Appreciate every reply.

LaVern


#12

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

ljms said:
Thank you. So if I understand you correctly, I have a good connection and no loss of voltage? I guess it is all black magic because I thought, and as did the starter repairman, that the voltage at the starter terminal should be just slightly less than the voltage across the battery terminals. You are saying that the way I am checking it,the higher the voltage at the starter terminal the worse the connections?? Doesn't make sense to me. When the starter key is turned, it should be sending voltage to the terminal to activate the starter. The higher the voltage, the better? So I thought. I guess I've always been under the impression that voltage was measured between positive and negative, amperage was measured inline the way you describe. Ok, again thanks.
LaVern
Click to expand...
The concept of measuring voltage drop can seem counter intuitive. Here is an example. Lets say you have a starting relay with burned contacts and has some resistance across the contacts. When you connect the meter to the +battery post and the terminal on the starter and there is resistance at the starting relay you will see battery voltage at the + batt terminal but a slightly lower voltage at the starter. This difference will show up on the meter. This test needs to be done at high current draw. Measuring voltage with little to no current flow can be deceiving. A bad ground can measure good with a meter but be a problem with high current flow. A voltage drop test does not check a component like the starter. It checks the current carrying capability of the wiring to the component.


#13

L

ljms

Hammermechanic,
So then the test I did at home just removing the starter and hooking a charger up to it didn't really show the condition of the starter, just the ability to turn while under no load. The starter repair man did that first thing, then he tore it apart and examined the internals finding nothing at all out of sorts, (" this looks like it is brand new inside"). He then put a meter on it and checked something and said there is nothing wrong with this starter that he could see. He did say he had another one on the shelf and would be glad to sell it to me but he felt it would not solve my problem. That is when he told me how to check it. He said if the voltage at the starter when the key was turned and under load should be very close to the voltage measured across the battery terminals. I guess that is why I thought the 12.7 to 2.6 voltage drop indicated a problem in the wiring or electrical components. So with all that being said, I guess come the weekend I will one more time, check the valve adjustments and go from there. Thanks for your input and time.
LaVern


#14

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

If you took the starter off and bench tested it with a charger you are correct it tests the the no load ability of the starter which is generally a good indicator the starter is good. Doing that and the voltage drop test will test the starter and wiring. Connecting the meter across the battery while cranking the engine will test battery voltage sag. Usually a sag to around 10 volts is normal depending on battery capacity and condition. If it sags to below about 8.5 volts there is a problem.


#15

L

ljms

Hammermechanicman said:
If you took the starter off and bench tested it with a charger you are correct it tests the the no load ability of the starter which is generally a good indicator the starter is good. Doing that and the voltage drop test will test the starter and wiring. Connecting the meter across the battery while cranking the engine will test battery voltage sag. Usually a sag to around 10 volts is normal depending on battery capacity and condition. If it sags to below about 8.5 volts there is a problem.
Click to expand...
I guess what I need to figure out then is where or what is the problem. Is it electrical as in solenoids, regulators, safety switches, etc.? Or is it bad wiring? Or is it mechanical such as the incorrect valve adjustment, or bad camshaft? A few days back I did a search looking for a schematic or wiring diagram and what I found confused me. The one terminology I kept coming across was, after fire solenoid. That is a completely unfamiliar item to me. Where can one find a good, detailed service manual for that particular engine? Thanks again.
LaVern


#16

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

The after fire solenoid is located on the carburetor. It is supposed to block fuel going into the main jet and stop engine from backfiring when the engine is shut off.


#17

L

ljms

Oh Okay, I always saw it referred to as carburetor shut off solenoid. Learn something new everyday. Thanks
LaVern


#18

B

bertsmobile1

Here is a standard reply for these problems.
Basically you bypass things one a a time using a pair of jump start leads and a spare battery.
Please run through these and post the results.
Battery cables are not sealed and on more han one occasion I have come across a cable hat has corroded through inside the insulation so they look good & ohm out fine but will not carry the 100 amps that the starter can draw

I like to start from the starter motor and go backwards .
Do the following 5 tests, regardless of the results from an or all of them as there can be more than one problem and you want to isolate where the problem lies.
Elimination of individual parts is important so you know by the end, the battery, solenoid & heavy power circuits are all in good order.

1) try to jump the starter motor directly from your car or truck.
+ on the starter first then - to a good ground near the starter ( drain plug of lift hook are good )
Starter turns = starter good

2) do the same directly from the mowers battery
Starter turns = mower battery good
No turn = duff battery, recharge it & try again.

3) check for voltage ( + 12V ) at the solenoid trigger wire with the key in start position
3a) same with ground trigger wire ( 4 wire solenoid ) or body of solenoid ( 3 wire solenoid)
( I like to test V from the battery hot terminal to ground terminal rather than ohms as they give funny readings )

4) leave ground jumper in place ( from step 2 ) & try key start.
Starter turns = power connection good but ground connection suspect ( most common )
Confirm it by trying again, extra ground removed

5) Remove the trigger ( thin ) wire / wires from the solenoid.
Ground one on a 4 wire solenoid & bridge from the hot terminal to the other.
Starter cranks = solenoid good.
Solenoid is not polarity sensitive, BUT THE WIRING IS so make sure you remove the thin control wires.
Note a thinner wire on the hot terminal is not a control wire. It is the main power feed to the mower.


From here on things become very mower dependant as starting circuits are getting changed all the time.
Basically the power goes in a loop from the hot side of the solenoid ( saves wire, no other reason ) through the fuse to the B terminal on the key switch then to the PTO switch then to the parking brake switch then to the solenoid trigger switch , easy peasy after you grow the 3rd arm. Use a test lamp and follow the power.
However a lot of mowers with a 4 pole solenoid, run a secondary ground control circuit to the ground solenoid wire through the lap bars.
Then to stop this interfearing with the normal safety function of the ground kill, it goes to a relay with the ground as the switched connection.
These are a PIA as the + control wire to the relay comes from the power loop above and the ground side of the control comes via the normal cut out functions of the lap bars.
Be very careful because if you have a system like this and accidentally send 12V down the ground loop you can fry the magnetos on some circuits.nd from the grounding bolt to one of the starter mounting bolts & paint over both with liquid electrical tape.


#19

L

ljms

Thank you so much. It will be the weekend until I get to it, and I will post results.
LaVern


#20

G

gainestruk

Scrubcadet10 said:
while most engine makers do have a recommended valve lash adjusting procedure, I've done it this way with never a problem.
Intake valve OPEN (intake spring depressed) adjust EXHAUST, exhaust valve open, (exhaust spring depressed) adjust intake.
Click to expand...
Same here, I normally tell people the by the book way, but I do it exactly like you ?


#21

L

ljms

bertsmobile1 said:
Here is a standard reply for these problems.
Basically you bypass things one a a time using a pair of jump start leads and a spare battery.
Please run through these and post the results.
Battery cables are not sealed and on more han one occasion I have come across a cable hat has corroded through inside the insulation so they look good & ohm out fine but will not carry the 100 amps that the starter can draw

I like to start from the starter motor and go backwards .
Do the following 5 tests, regardless of the results from an or all of them as there can be more than one problem and you want to isolate where the problem lies.
Elimination of individual parts is important so you know by the end, the battery, solenoid & heavy power circuits are all in good order.

1) try to jump the starter motor directly from your car or truck.
+ on the starter first then - to a good ground near the starter ( drain plug of lift hook are good )
Starter turns = starter good

2) do the same directly from the mowers battery
Starter turns = mower battery good
No turn = duff battery, recharge it & try again.

3) check for voltage ( + 12V ) at the solenoid trigger wire with the key in start position
3a) same with ground trigger wire ( 4 wire solenoid ) or body of solenoid ( 3 wire solenoid)
( I like to test V from the battery hot terminal to ground terminal rather than ohms as they give funny readings )

4) leave ground jumper in place ( from step 2 ) & try key start.
Starter turns = power connection good but ground connection suspect ( most common )
Confirm it by trying again, extra ground removed

5) Remove the trigger ( thin ) wire / wires from the solenoid.
Ground one on a 4 wire solenoid & bridge from the hot terminal to the other.
Starter cranks = solenoid good.
Solenoid is not polarity sensitive, BUT THE WIRING IS so make sure you remove the thin control wires.
Note a thinner wire on the hot terminal is not a control wire. It is the main power feed to the mower.


From here on things become very mower dependant as starting circuits are getting changed all the time.
Basically the power goes in a loop from the hot side of the solenoid ( saves wire, no other reason ) through the fuse to the B terminal on the key switch then to the PTO switch then to the parking brake switch then to the solenoid trigger switch , easy peasy after you grow the 3rd arm. Use a test lamp and follow the power.
However a lot of mowers with a 4 pole solenoid, run a secondary ground control circuit to the ground solenoid wire through the lap bars.
Then to stop this interfearing with the normal safety function of the ground kill, it goes to a relay with the ground as the switched connection.
These are a PIA as the + control wire to the relay comes from the power loop above and the ground side of the control comes via the normal cut out functions of the lap bars.
Be very careful because if you have a system like this and accidentally send 12V down the ground loop you can fry the magnetos on some circuits.nd from the grounding bolt to one of the starter mounting bolts & paint over both with liquid electrical tape.
Click to expand...
Bertsmobile 1,
Had a bit of time to check the situation out. Her's what I did. Instead of using a car or truck for jumping, I used a battery charger. FIrst on 2 amp, setting, then 20, and then 40. Each time the same result. The starter turned and the starter gear engaged the flywheel but would only turn until it came up on the compresssion stroke. I then disconnected the positive lead from the starter and with the charger turned off I connected the charger again to the positive terminal of starter and the neg. to oil drain plug. I the again tried all three amp settings and the same exact results occurred, the starter engaged the flywheel but would not turn the engine over past the compression stroke. Then I removed the spark plug and tried the same thing and even on the chargers first setting of 2 amps, it spun the engine over, and at 20 amps it turned it faster. No need to try the 40 amp setting . At that point I decided that it is probably is the camshaft just as most of the postings here have said, and I need to put this on the back burner for awhile. Winter is coming on and I need to get stuff ready and in shape around here. Perhaps it can be a winter project for myself and my grandkids. Been along time since I've tore one of these small engines apart, so it should be a good re-learning experience for me and a good educational experience for the grandsons who are 10 and 15. Meanwhile I want to thank you and everybody who posted for helping me out and sharing your knowledege with me.
LaVern


#22

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

If you think about it, that charger maxes out at 40 amps. Most mower batteries are 200-300 or higher Cranking AMPS.
Now if you have a Noco booster that's made for starting that would work but not a charger


#23

B

bertsmobile1

I was going to leave it alone but I will put my 2¢ worth in.
When we ask you to do a test it needs to be done as it was requested otherwise we are all wasting our time
The test was designed to confirm the condition of the starting cables but all you have done is confirmed your charger won't crank the engine .
The starter motors pull around 200 amps momentarily when they just start t move then around 40 A while revolving.
We try to keep them simple using stuff that most people would have in their sheds or cars .
While it is probably the cam shaft please follow instructions to the letter it helps everyone else and those who might read the post in the future.


#24

L

ljms

bertsmobile1 said:
I was going to leave it alone but I will put my 2¢ worth in.
When we ask you to do a test it needs to be done as it was requested otherwise we are all wasting our time
The test was designed to confirm the condition of the starting cables but all you have done is confirmed your charger won't crank the engine .
The starter motors pull around 200 amps momentarily when they just start t move then around 40 A while revolving.
We try to keep them simple using stuff that most people would have in their sheds or cars .
While it is probably the cam shaft please follow instructions to the letter it helps everyone else and those who might read the post in the future.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry if I have offended any one. I really don't have the time now to get back to it. I will try to get back to it later on. I have saved your instructions for when I have time to get back to it. One of the problems is the location of the solenoid on the Bolens. It's under the seat tucked way up in a corner . Almost have to tear it out to access it. That is another reason early on I alluded to making wiring more simple by removing all the lockout switches since it is no longer being used as a lawnmower. Again, I am sorry if I have offended you or anyone else. I appreciate your input and help. I just have other things I need to do now.
LaVern


#25

B

bertsmobile1

Not offended in any way shape or form, just dissapointed


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