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For those in the repair business only: When are "The Brands" going to get with 2015??

I find this totally odd and unrealistic. Companies such as Briggs and Stratton and John Deere feel their technical/service manuals are only to be procured by secret handshake and becoming a certified dealer.

Some of these companies use Persona for ordering parts. OMG are you kidding?!? This technology is what Bill Gates used for his sixth grade science project. I've spoken to the reps at one source and they say "it's not that bad once you get used to it". Really? I have lots of jobs to do, and figuring out the MSDOS system of the 80's is not one of them.

In the modern age we have the internet. Where really, nothing is sacred or secret. Whether it's Jon Q Public, or a guy fixing the neighbors mowers in his back yard, make the information available.

I think Kohler has made the wise move to make all their manuals public.

I know some may think that this old thinking safeguards those in the business. But I can't disagree more. If you haven't noticed, all the independent shops are fading away. The old timers are packing it in, calling it quits, and taking all their years of knowledge with them. Does this mean more business for the dealers. Perhaps, but if a customer owns a Craftsman they get to play patty-cake with whatever kid is driving the repair truck that day. Nobody wins there.

Which leads me to the dealers. They normally only service what they have factory support for. This leaves a massive hole for a customer if they own something older or without local support (i.e. white outdoor equipment or an old Dixon).

Maybe I'm wrong on this, but there will always be PLENTY of work for everybody and anybody that wants to jump into the trade. If JD, B&S and Stihl for that matter, lighten up on the service manual info this will help the average homeowner's reassurance that even if you can't find a local dealer "the factory" is open for parts sales if you elect to proceed on your own.

You may have a difference of opinion, but who is lined up to take over your shop when you get out??

Re: For those in the repair business only: When are "The Brands" going to get with 20

Gees if you think you got problems then come down here.
I generally have to go to an internet supplier like Jacks to find out a generic serial number to put into the USA web site to find out what parts I need for the Australian variant or even worse a locally rebranded imported mower.
Stens ( bynorm here ) is one of my suppliers but I have to go the Jacks in the USA to find out what Stens parts will fit Ariens/Gravely/Great Dane all of which are owend by Ariens who also own Stens,why ? because I only repair and do not sell whole goods.
B & S Australia will not supply any information, for that I have to go to B & S USA web site and don't get me started on Kohler Australia.
I have to use a spoofing program to fool it into thinking I am in the USA because their soft wear always sends me to Kohler Australia no matter what you do and all Kohler Australia has on their web site is brouchers & dealer locaters.
I have had this out with various reps who are trying to sign me up to retail their equipment.
I have even shown them the invoices for the parts I buy from the US ( around $ 4000 / month in peak times ) but they are just not interested .
SO you got it easy over there.
Belts are an even bigger problem because most older mowers need a slightly shorter one to compensate for wear in the pulleys so for that it is onto Jacks / parts tree etc, then on to Gates for a gates replacement number then to another Gates catalogue for the actual size of the belt.
I can understand J D making you buy the manual as JD put a lot of work into them and the are very comprehensive.
The last one I bought had 80 pages of wiring diagrams including simplified ones breaking down each set of circuits which saved me hours of time.
But most of the rest are not much chop.

Re: For those in the repair business only: When are "The Brands" going to get with 20

Way back, a local small repair shop /dealer told me that the mfg's. were afraid of liability issues ( ie. some ding-dong loses a hand becase the mower accidentaly started when he was changing blades ) and small shops (some) were afraid it would " take-away " from their business , But he said he got a lot of work from people who started to repair their own machine and could'nt finish the job from lack of mechanical ability, or special tools. He had a huge back room with all kinds of equipment people gave him because they could'nt afford him to fix what they broke, doing it on their own. He hated the times when people in the neighborhood would bug him about " how does this come apart", or can I use your special tool for a little while , others wanting a used part ........ anything that took him away from his "bread & butter" work , mostly the lawn service companies who needed their repairs "done yesterday" and then of course ....... why give away what you can sell . E-Bay is a good example of people who get free manuals on-line , print them out and sell them .
Murray ( which I own ) never even made SERVICE manuals for their equipment , and the "big-box stores" rarely have a service department for lawn equipment . Thank God for the internet and sites like LawnMower Forum. .......:ban:

Re: For those in the repair business only: When are "The Brands" going to get with 20

Rokon, you are asking for information to be released that even the dealers such as myself have to hunt for. Manuals for Briggs were hard to find even on their dealer website. And any person can walk into a Briggs dealer and purchase a shop manual. Some dealers even have them on the shelf for purchase. Now these manuals are not written for the homeowner, they are written for the technician that has been to the factory school, so they leave out a lot of the basic how do you take this apart.

Yes, some companies still use Persona. The funny thing is I can do more with Persona sometimes then what is available from the 2015 modern parts ordering system. One thing I wish would change is Stihl would allow their parts diagrams to be made public, so it would easier to locate parts for their products without having to bug the dealer, and then look at his screen to point out what you are needing for repair your saw, trimmer, etc. I would take Persona over one company that I had to order by fax only complete with supplying credit card information because they wouldn't set up open accounts for their dealers. And you had to call the factory to get a price on a part because they wouldn't supply price list. And then charged no less than $26 freight on an order. Nothing like telling a customer that I can order his $2.99 widget but the freight will be $26.00.

I have lines that I service that I have to call the factory in July to get a part number for a mower that hit the shelves in March, because the parts system isn't up to date, and then the factory has to pull the paper file to get the build sheet to get me a part number. or I have to look up parts on a Canadian site in French with the pdf turned sideways, and the part numbers jumbled because it didn't convert correctly because Menards is selling products that was slated for the Canadian market.

And White parts are not that hard to come up with. There are sites such as partstree or ordertree that the normal person can order parts from. Ordertree is actually controlled by a national OEM distributor that I order parts from as a dealer. Back when we had microfiche, MTD only supplied 10 years worth of microfiche. So a Dealer that opened in 2005 would only have parts lookup back to 1995. the dealer that opened this year would go back to 2005.

So lets release all the manuals, all the parts diagrams, everything we have access to, but under one condition, Don't come complaining to us, the dealers when we don't have the information that you think we should have. Because I can tell you we are in the dark just as much as the customer is sometimes. I have been a AYP/Poulan service center for 15 years, and I haven't seen a new service manual since I signed as a dealer, And the service manuals I received covered Craftsmans products, which I couldn't repair under warranty if I wanted to.

So Rokon, what you think, you the consumer should have, I may not even have. As far as parts availability most mower manufacturers delete a part from their system after it has been out of production for 10 years. If the Aftermarket people such as Stens, Oregon, Rotary don't pick it up then it is gone.

So as you can see we dealers have it easy. And by the way MTD has a bad habit of incorrect part numbers in the parts lookup system, and then never fix them. So you will end up with incorrect parts for products that are 8 years old, but it is my fault that you received the wrong part.

Re: For those in the repair business only: When are "The Brands" going to get with 20

Thank you IL, I couldn't have said it better.

Re: For those in the repair business only: When are "The Brands" going to get with 20

Well according to John Deere, you don't own their products anyway, your purchase is merely "implied license for the life of the vehicle to operate the vehicle."

We Can't Let John Deere Destroy the Very Idea of Ownership | WIRED

My favorite part?

"The pièce de résistance in John Deere’s argument: permitting owners to root around in a tractor’s programming might lead to pirating music through a vehicle’s entertainment system."

Re: For those in the repair business only: When are "The Brands" going to get with 20

According to Wikipedia's info. Your chances of getting in trouble only go up if your operating OUTSIDE the US. Digital Millennium Copyright Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia