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Engine spins very slow
#1
D
DavidO
D
DavidO
New here so I hope I can get some help.
I have an Ariens mower that is a couple of years old and has been running great with no problems until two days ago. Engine won't spin fast enough to start , just lugs.
had the same problem with an older mower and it was the valve adjustment so I thought that was the problem. The motor is a 310000 model and the spec call for intake valve to be .003-.005 and the exhaust to be .005-.007. So I set the intake (bottom) valve at .003 and the exhaust (top) at .005, spun the engine several times by hand and rechecking the clearances each time. They were at the correct setting.
Thought it may be the battery even though my son put one in this year, battery read 13.1 volts at the terminals but when i checked the voltage at the starter it read 7.6 volts. i used some jumper cables and hooked the mower to the car and it lugged for about 1/8 turn of the flywheel and then started spinning and fired right up. I am now leaning more toward a weak battery and wondered if anybody else had experienced a similar problem.
Thanks in advance for any input.
I have an Ariens mower that is a couple of years old and has been running great with no problems until two days ago. Engine won't spin fast enough to start , just lugs.
had the same problem with an older mower and it was the valve adjustment so I thought that was the problem. The motor is a 310000 model and the spec call for intake valve to be .003-.005 and the exhaust to be .005-.007. So I set the intake (bottom) valve at .003 and the exhaust (top) at .005, spun the engine several times by hand and rechecking the clearances each time. They were at the correct setting.
Thought it may be the battery even though my son put one in this year, battery read 13.1 volts at the terminals but when i checked the voltage at the starter it read 7.6 volts. i used some jumper cables and hooked the mower to the car and it lugged for about 1/8 turn of the flywheel and then started spinning and fired right up. I am now leaning more toward a weak battery and wondered if anybody else had experienced a similar problem.
Thanks in advance for any input.
#2
KrashnKraka
Welcome...trust yer mystery gets some air (time).
Assuming the wiring to starter motor has been throughly
inspected/tested for continuity remove the starter motor and
check bendix is free and brushes on motor are serviceable.
There will be a starter solenoid between battery and starter motor.
You could check those internals by disconnecting starter motor
and verify the voltage is close to battey voltage and above the 7.6
you report. Where starter motor and solenoid are a joined component
the whole assembly will need to be benched and tested/dissembled.
Trust that helps some.
KrashnKraka
New here so I hope I can get some help.
I have an Ariens mower that is a couple of years old and has been running great with no problems until two days ago. Engine won't spin fast enough to start , just lugs.
had the same problem with an older mower and it was the valve adjustment so I thought that was the problem. The motor is a 310000 model and the spec call for intake valve to be .003-.005 and the exhaust to be .005-.007. So I set the intake (bottom) valve at .003 and the exhaust (top) at .005, spun the engine several times by hand and rechecking the clearances each time. They were at the correct setting.
Thought it may be the battery even though my son put one in this year, battery read 13.1 volts at the terminals but when i checked the voltage at the starter it read 7.6 volts. i used some jumper cables and hooked the mower to the car and it lugged for about 1/8 turn of the flywheel and then started spinning and fired right up. I am now leaning more toward a weak battery and wondered if anybody else had experienced a similar problem.
Thanks in advance for any input.
Welcome...trust yer mystery gets some air (time).
Assuming the wiring to starter motor has been throughly
inspected/tested for continuity remove the starter motor and
check bendix is free and brushes on motor are serviceable.
There will be a starter solenoid between battery and starter motor.
You could check those internals by disconnecting starter motor
and verify the voltage is close to battey voltage and above the 7.6
you report. Where starter motor and solenoid are a joined component
the whole assembly will need to be benched and tested/dissembled.
Trust that helps some.
#3
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
The first thing I would check are all connections, sounds like you are loosing your grounds. Make sure you check the one from the ground cable to the chassis.
#4
S
SeniorCitizen
The 7.6 V at starter when cranking is too low. With the battery having a full charge have it load tested for free at most any auto supply.
*************************************************************************
QUOTE: i used some jumper cables and hooked the mower to the car and it lugged for about 1/8 turn of the flywheel and then started spinning and fired right up.
****************************************************************************
Typical of a loose and or dirty connection of a high amp. cable. Heat is created and when enough heat it finally makes a good enough connection to crank.
S
SeniorCitizen
New here so I hope I can get some help.
I have an Ariens mower that is a couple of years old and has been running great with no problems until two days ago. Engine won't spin fast enough to start , just lugs.
had the same problem with an older mower and it was the valve adjustment so I thought that was the problem. The motor is a 310000 model and the spec call for intake valve to be .003-.005 and the exhaust to be .005-.007. So I set the intake (bottom) valve at .003 and the exhaust (top) at .005, spun the engine several times by hand and rechecking the clearances each time. They were at the correct setting.
Thought it may be the battery even though my son put one in this year, battery read 13.1 volts at the terminals but when i checked the voltage at the starter it read 7.6 volts. i used some jumper cables and hooked the mower to the car and it lugged for about 1/8 turn of the flywheel and then started spinning and fired right up. I am now leaning more toward a weak battery and wondered if anybody else had experienced a similar problem.
Thanks in advance for any input.
The 7.6 V at starter when cranking is too low. With the battery having a full charge have it load tested for free at most any auto supply.
*************************************************************************
QUOTE: i used some jumper cables and hooked the mower to the car and it lugged for about 1/8 turn of the flywheel and then started spinning and fired right up.
****************************************************************************
Typical of a loose and or dirty connection of a high amp. cable. Heat is created and when enough heat it finally makes a good enough connection to crank.
#6
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Run a jumper from the mowers battery to a good earth point ( engine drain plug is good )
Next run a + jumper from the battery and touch it to the + on the starter motor. Starter turns OK = bad, dirty, broken, corroded connections
Next run a + jumper from the battery and touch it to the + on the starter motor. Starter turns OK = bad, dirty, broken, corroded connections
#7
D
DavidO
D
DavidO
Thanks for everyone's input, hopefully I will get done with work early enough tomorrow to try some of your suggestions and let you know the results.
#8
D
DavidO
D
DavidO
Had a little time this evening to run some more test and this is what I came up with.
Hooked up jumper cables from battery directly to starter, using the oil drain plug to hook up the negative from the battery as the ground and touched the starter with the positive from the battery. There was no change I assume doing this bypasses all the starter wiring.
Next I took some voltage readings here is what I got:
Key off
Battery 13.1 volts
Starter Sel. battery side using oil drain plug for ground 13.1 volts
Starter Sel. starter side 0 volts
Key in start position using oil drain plug for ground
Starter Sel. Battery side 12.9 volts
Starter Sel. starter side 6.4 volts
Starter wire connected to starter 6.4 volts
Starter wire disconnected from starter 12.9 volts
Could this mean that the starter is shorting out and needs a rebuild or could it be another problem. Is there a way to check the decompression system to see if it is operating properly?
Like I stated earlier with the spark plug out of the engine the starter spins the engine fine but with the plug in and compression doesn't allow the engine to spin.
Thanks
Hooked up jumper cables from battery directly to starter, using the oil drain plug to hook up the negative from the battery as the ground and touched the starter with the positive from the battery. There was no change I assume doing this bypasses all the starter wiring.
Next I took some voltage readings here is what I got:
Key off
Battery 13.1 volts
Starter Sel. battery side using oil drain plug for ground 13.1 volts
Starter Sel. starter side 0 volts
Key in start position using oil drain plug for ground
Starter Sel. Battery side 12.9 volts
Starter Sel. starter side 6.4 volts
Starter wire connected to starter 6.4 volts
Starter wire disconnected from starter 12.9 volts
Could this mean that the starter is shorting out and needs a rebuild or could it be another problem. Is there a way to check the decompression system to see if it is operating properly?
Like I stated earlier with the spark plug out of the engine the starter spins the engine fine but with the plug in and compression doesn't allow the engine to spin.
Thanks
#9
KrashnKraka
Shot duck 'starter'.
Technically the starter is "taking down" the circuit.
Why could be a number of possible faults in the starter.
If you want to have a go, post a pix of the removed starter
and someone here will have worked on one.
Thanks for that work, huge help for yourself.
KrashnKraka
Yeuppp...and no need to go further.Had a little time this evening to run some more test and this is what I came up with.
Hooked up jumper cables from battery directly to starter, using the oil drain plug to hook up the negative from the battery as the ground and touched the starter with the positive from the battery. There was no change I assume doing this bypasses all the starter wiring.
Shot duck 'starter'.
Technically the starter is "taking down" the circuit.
Why could be a number of possible faults in the starter.
If you want to have a go, post a pix of the removed starter
and someone here will have worked on one.
Thanks for that work, huge help for yourself.
#10
M
Mikel1
M
Mikel1
Yep, I would load test battery to be sure.The 7.6 V at starter when cranking is too low. With the battery having a full charge have it load tested for free at most any auto supply.
#11
S
SeniorCitizen
S
SeniorCitizen
If you don't have time to have the battery load tested at least disconnect the mower's cable from the starter and jumper cable the starter from your pick up truck or a car that has a known good battery.
Your readings are too erratic to jump to conclusions at this point the starter is bad.
Your readings are too erratic to jump to conclusions at this point the starter is bad.
#12
D
DavidO
D
DavidO
Took the battery to Advance Auto had it load tested -- battery tested good. Just pulled Starter off they said they could test it so will take it to them tomorrow.
#13
S
SeniorCitizen
S
SeniorCitizen
If you lived closer we could determine determine both the starter and battery condition with my 1950s something sears amp meter while the starter was on the mower. I think it should draw around 150-175 amps. cranking the engine. When it goes to about 300 amps it's using all its got and then we start looking at valve lash for de-compression purposes and things like that.
Attachments
#14
KrashnKraka
90 - 150.... on a good day, yeh.
That meter have multiplier connections at rear?
Pretty lookin' thang for it's age... same is said for
my Squeeze,,and she has worked all her adult years.
So it is possible :->
KrashnKraka
[...]
....my 1950s something sears amp meter while the starter was on the mower. I think it should draw around 150-175 amps.
90 - 150.... on a good day, yeh.
That meter have multiplier connections at rear?
Pretty lookin' thang for it's age... same is said for
my Squeeze,,and she has worked all her adult years.
So it is possible :->
#15
S
SeniorCitizen
no connections. lay the wire in the channel. induction meter.
the charge function is not good for most mower alternator output. output too low. designed for automobiles.
S
SeniorCitizen
90 - 150.... on a good day, yeh.
That meter have multiplier connections at rear?
Pretty lookin' thang for it's age... same is said for
my Squeeze,,and she has worked all her adult years.
So it is possible :->
no connections. lay the wire in the channel. induction meter.
the charge function is not good for most mower alternator output. output too low. designed for automobiles.
#16
KrashnKraka
/drumming fingers on desk
I See I see....
I will think about posting a thread on "Front Porch" on
topic of analog meters, Old technology it still reinforces
basics in understanding procedures,
KrashnKraka
no connections. lay the wire in the channel. induction meter.
the charge function is not good for most mower alternator output. output too low. designed for automobiles.
/drumming fingers on desk
I See I see....
I will think about posting a thread on "Front Porch" on
topic of analog meters, Old technology it still reinforces
basics in understanding procedures,
#17
D
DavidO
D
DavidO
Talked to the repair shop that works on some of my equipment, after telling him everything that was going on and what I have checked said is sounds like motor needs a new camshaft.
#18
KrashnKraka
Okkeee...that don't compute with what you have posted.
But This is the InterWebs, come one come all.
Mind how you go...
/out
KrashnKraka
Talked to the repair shop that works on some of my equipment, after telling him everything that was going on and what I have checked said is sounds like motor needs a new camshaft.
Okkeee...that don't compute with what you have posted.
But This is the InterWebs, come one come all.
Mind how you go...
/out
#19
D
DavidO
D
DavidO
KrashnKraka,
What do you think computes with what I have posted? I have racked my brain of everything that I could think of that might be a possible problem. Oh by the way I forgot to post last night that the starter tested as good. Thanks for any imput.
What do you think computes with what I have posted? I have racked my brain of everything that I could think of that might be a possible problem. Oh by the way I forgot to post last night that the starter tested as good. Thanks for any imput.
#20
G
gainestruk
If you have a good repair shop that works on starters & alternators etc.
Have them rebuild your starter.
But 1st check and see how much for a new starter, rebuild might be about as much as a new one.
G
gainestruk
I'm guessing he saw "camshaft" and thought it was one inside engine.KrashnKraka, What do you think computes with what I have posted? I have racked my brain of everything that I could think of that might be a possible problem. Oh by the way I forgot to post last night that the starter tested as good. Thanks for any imput.
If you have a good repair shop that works on starters & alternators etc.
Have them rebuild your starter.
But 1st check and see how much for a new starter, rebuild might be about as much as a new one.
#21
D
DavidO
D
DavidO
I am referring to the camshaft inside the engine, didn't know there was more than one on this engine. The starter tested fine. Rechecked the gap on the valves today and there were correct, but I did not notice any slight movement in either valve when I turned the motor by hand. This I understand is the compression release on the camshaft to allow the pressure inside the cylinder to be released so the starter can spin the engine fast enough to start. If this is not correct someone please let me know. At any rate I am taking it to the repair shop tomorrow to let them find the problem, don't have the spare time to piddle on this anymore. Hopefully I can get an answer.
#22
L
logan01
L
logan01
If everything has checked out, it sounds like your mechanic has determined that the compression release on the camshaft is very worn or broken. When you set the valves, did you do them on TDC or individually without determining TDC? It's best to set them after first finding TDC on the compression stroke and then you need to go 1/4" past that spot so that you "clear" the compression release mechanism on the camshaft. From B&S: The compression release system lifts either the exhaust or the intake valve slightly off its seat during the compression event (this is why the piston is positioned past top dead center to about 1/4" down from the top of the cylinder when adjusting valve clearances). This releases pressure and reduces the force required to pull the starter rope or load on the starter motor.That isn't etched in stone however it could be the issue. Not etched in stone meaning most folks don't do it that way yet they don't suffer the consequences. I'm assuming through all this you have confirmed there is zero gas going into the oil. This can easily increase the compression and display those symptoms.
#23
S
SeniorCitizen
To determine if the compression release is working, put your 0.001" or 0.002" feeler gauge between the valve stem and rocker lever as you rotate by hand to TDC on compression stroke. Keep moving the gauge a little as TDC is approached. If the release is functional you will feel the gauge tighten between valve stem end and rocker lever as the cam bump momentarily opens the valve.
Whether the exhaust or intake valve is designed to release compression that will need to be determined by engine numbers and the manufacturer or by the above test if the release is working as designed..
S
SeniorCitizen
I am referring to the camshaft inside the engine, didn't know there was more than one on this engine. The starter tested fine. Rechecked the gap on the valves today and there were correct, but I did not notice any slight movement in either valve when I turned the motor by hand. This I understand is the compression release on the camshaft to allow the pressure inside the cylinder to be released so the starter can spin the engine fast enough to start. If this is not correct someone please let me know. At any rate I am taking it to the repair shop tomorrow to let them find the problem, don't have the spare time to piddle on this anymore. Hopefully I can get an answer.
To determine if the compression release is working, put your 0.001" or 0.002" feeler gauge between the valve stem and rocker lever as you rotate by hand to TDC on compression stroke. Keep moving the gauge a little as TDC is approached. If the release is functional you will feel the gauge tighten between valve stem end and rocker lever as the cam bump momentarily opens the valve.
Whether the exhaust or intake valve is designed to release compression that will need to be determined by engine numbers and the manufacturer or by the above test if the release is working as designed..
#24
D
DavidO
D
DavidO
Thanks for the info. Things that I had read everyone spoke like this was a visible movement one could see without much trouble.