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I was just surfing the net this morning when I ran across this. Pretty awesome. And will probably change the industry (at least the mechanics of it).

VANGUARD™ 24-28 Gross HP EFI

Vanguard EFI engines feature an automotive-based, closed-loop system that offers significant fuel savings over a carbureted equivalent—and also outperforms competitive EFI engines. Thanks to the continuous feedback provided by the O2 sensor to the Electronic Control Module (ECM), Vanguard’s closed-loop EFI system offers greater efficiency, easier starting and higher productivity.

Briggs is just entering the market with EFI. something Kohler has been playing with for 15 years or so.

If they do it right, it could be a great thing. Carburetors can be a real pain. But so can 02 censors and injectors.

The EFI systems are more forgiving of fuel quality because they can self adjust. Also because some systems have a fuel return to tank it creates a mixing effect which alllows the water and other debris to be either captured in the filter or burned in small amount at a time.

The downside can be the complicated diagnostics that is required of these systems sometimes. My other worry is will lawnmowers go the way of JD with their software and you purchase a new mower but only have a license for the software preventing Joe homeowner from doing repairs without involving the dealer to authorize the repair in the computer.

You'd think there has to be some sort of ECM. And a way to plug in your laptop or smart phone, to help with diagnostics.
It shouldn't take long for those aftermarket ones to become available. Or at least the black market ones.

Yes, I feel the frustration of diy auto and tractor operatorrs who are held slave to NO SHOP MANUALS any more, Instead, mgrs. may hide all their data and procedures for ransome. One approach is to offer "all you can eat" by the hourly rate from their software library. They withhold publication of paper manuals for 15 years, forcing all but the stubborn or inquisitive to buy in. Software subscription is prohibitively expensive for most but the pro shop. This has apparently caught on throughout the industry. The alternative for auto people is to frequent the enthusiast forums for bits of data.

I agree it would be a shame if lawnmower and tractor mfgrs do the same. For a while a diyer could access fault codes via the "blink" system by simply grounding a couple dash mounted pins or turning a little "screw" on the ECM, itself. Fault codes will not necessarily quickly solve an identified problem, but they point which is something lacking on carbureted engines. A little practice with a DVM (digital volt meter) and many would find the EFI troubleshooting even enjoyable. I would be interested to hear from owners/operators if the "blink" system is still offered. :thumbsup:

hrdman2luv said:

You'd think there has to be some sort of ECM. And a way to plug in your laptop or smart phone, to help with diagnostics.
It shouldn't take long for those aftermarket ones to become available. Or at least the black market ones.

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The software for most companies is free. They just make you pay an outrages cost for the cable. And every company has a different cable, and they are all none OBD 2 systems. And some of the engine companies software also uploads the engine information to the manufacturers database.

JD is treating the black market software as a breach of contract because the people that buy that equipment sign a contract that basically says they are not allowed to modify or access the JD software.

All new fuel powered tools will be EFI in time,.
This is due to EPA regulations that can not be meet by carburettored engines, exactly the same as the auto industry, then motorcycles & snowmobiles .
There are actual tools that my suppliers are not allowed to sell me because I am not a new equipment seller and do not have a certificate from the OEM tech school.
The EPA regards control softwear in the same mannar.
If it can be used to change the emmissions of the engine then only the educated few can be allowed to touch them.

The cable outrage reminds me of the home printer ink cluster fink. I do see a hard core of auto fanatics, also computer savvy, who make their own cables once the connectors are identified. And there is a large after market of fueling/timing/command equipment to modify factory engine control systems. But they seem to be a small, hard core bunch, frequently working with engine transplants and making one model car wiring work with a different powertrain. Mostly they seem to end up with "check engine" light problems and having to dodge local emission control checks unless the cars are antiques (20 plus years old).

Further for curious readers a software subscription for an upscale auto shop is $5000 plus equipment. I think the hourly rent for factory software runs at least $15. Corrections please , because my information is dated and not complete.

Since some efi software for the tractors is available and ?cheap? it would be interesting to know best models and years to purchase used for the home based diyer., No? :smile:

edit, And...do violators fear the JD police like we all fear the "mattress tag" enforcers?

The EPA, Politicians, and those Bass-Turdly lawyers have all but destroyed this country..we can only
hope ... that through what COMMON SENSE is left ... we will survive their onslaught.

Boobala said:

The EPA, Politicians, and those Bass-Turdly lawyers have all but destroyed this country..we can only
hope ... that through what COMMON SENSE is left ... we will survive their onslaught.

Click to expand...

Politics can ruin a lot of things. Including a good thread. he he he he he


Just a political note: Republicans and democrats have been messing up this country for over 100 years. And that's all I have to say about that.

IMO an efi engine is much better in all ways than carburetion... Throttle response, economy, emissions, power....on and on. What irks me is the actions of corporations who withhold information from those who would fix things themselves. It is just brainwash that "oh, these things are just too complex to fix." Like the TV ad by some ex NFL coach explaining a "check engine " light results in "thousand dollar" engine overhaul. (You mean like tightening a gas cap?)

Anyway, I think that the blink system may have gone away in auto repair with the OBD I system, but perhaps it lingers on in some small engine systems. I believe some Chinese efi engines have appeared, like the "yellow" lawn tractors (someone help with that brand name).

motoman said:

IMO an efi engine is much better in all ways than carburetion... Throttle response, economy, emissions, power....on and on. What irks me is the actions of corporations who withhold information from those who would fix things themselves. It is just brainwash that "oh, these things are just too complex to fix." Like the TV ad by some ex NFL coach explaining a "check engine " light results in "thousand dollar" engine overhaul. (You mean like tightening a gas cap?)

Anyway, I think that the blink system may have gone away in auto repair with the OBD I system, but perhaps it lingers on in some small engine systems. I believe some Chinese efi engines have appeared, like the "yellow" lawn tractors (someone help with that brand name).

Click to expand...

I remember those days ... when you could walk into the LOCAL corner hardware store get 3 screws,washers & nuts for less than a Quarter !!
Mr. Jones (the proprietor) might even give ya a few pointers on fixing that bicycle... THEN one day ..!!
we went from a D.I.Y. world...to a GREED filled SCREW YOU !!! mentality .. Glad LMF is here to restore my faith , that there are STILL a few
Human beings with common-sense & compassion to help their fellow D.I.Y. rs ... :thumbsup:

Just to clean up my own questions regarding efi I spent some time surfing around Kohler and found an excellent site most pros know about, but probably few diyers. It is 32 pp of great pdf pictures and procedures regarding their commercial efi system, components, access of fault codes etc. Sorry I cannot paste so here is a tedious site id: cpdonline.com/drl/Kohler_commercialEFI19620_110613-1.pdf

The site above tells how to obtain the blink codes with the 3 position ignition switch. It does not tell the vintage or the engine range (that I remember).

I kept looking and discovered (again probably well known to pros) that Walbro makes what we used to call a "throttle body" fuel injection system for the Cub Cadet consumer level lawn tractors called their EEM system. It takes up the space of a float carburetor . This system is apparently new since late 2015 and I could find nothing from either Cub Cadet or Walbro on trouble shooting the efi. Being a big box item it could give pause. Cub Cadet puts it on a single and V kohler engine. I would think Cub Cadet forum enthusiasts would want to pursue this.

motoman said:

Just to clean up my own questions regarding efi I spent some time surfing around Kohler and found an excellent site most pros know about, but probably few diyers. It is 32 pp of great pdf pictures and procedures regarding their commercial efi system, components, access of fault codes etc. Sorry I cannot paste so here is a tedious site id: cpdonline.com/drl/Kohler_commercialEFI19620_110613-1.pdf

The site above tells how to obtain the blink codes with the 3 position ignition switch. It does not tell the vintage or the engine range (that I remember).

I kept looking and discovered (again probably well known to pros) that Walbro makes what we used to call a "throttle body" fuel injection system for the Cub Cadet consumer level lawn tractors called their EEM system. It takes up the space of a float carburetor . This system is apparently new since late 2015 and I could find nothing from either Cub Cadet or Walbro on trouble shooting the efi. Being a big box item it could give pause. Cub Cadet puts it on a single and V kohler engine. I would think Cub Cadet forum enthusiasts would want to pursue this.

Click to expand...

the MTD system is used on select Cub Cadet and Troybilt mowers. Dealers have to purchase a cable to connect to the system, the software to run it is downloaded from the MTD dealer only site, and the throttle body is replaced if determined defective as a complete assembly. Any tampering or disassembly of the EFI components will result in the warranty claims being denied and there is a 100% vendor return policy for any parts of the system.

Boobala said:

I remember those days ... when you could walk into the LOCAL corner hardware store get 3 screws,washers & nuts for less than a Quarter !!
Mr. Jones (the proprietor) might even give ya a few pointers on fixing that bicycle... THEN one day ..!!
we went from a D.I.Y. world...to a GREED filled SCREW YOU !!! mentality .. Glad LMF is here to restore my faith , that there are STILL a few
Human beings with common-sense & compassion to help their fellow D.I.Y. rs ... :thumbsup:

Click to expand...

.

It is called inflation.
That quarter would also buy a gallon ( or better ) of fuel and represented an hour of your hard labour
Now an hour of your labour in worth around $ 10.00 and you still get a bag of screws , a bag of washers & a bag of nuts for under 1 hours work.

We now have governments run bu richious christians ( or at least they pretend to be ) desperately trying to prove Darwin was wrong by shoving all sots of legislation that is not needed and serves very little purpose between the shop owner & his ( sexist pig ain't I ) customers.
so he spends all day in his office filling out forms that no one actually reads.
Then don't forget greed.
I am 20 km from a big shopping center and my local hardwear store is closing down. Why ?
Because the greedy selfish local residents will happily drive 20 km each way thus waste 2 hours of travel time to go to the big box hardwear store, stand in front of a wall of prepackaged fasteners for an hour trying to find what they want, buy 5 packets because they are confused or can't find what they wanted rather than go to the local store and get the right fasteners, in the right lengths loose because he charges 3 times as much per fastener as the big box store does.
Then of course they break because the big box stores are selling cheap Chinese domestic grade fasteners where as the local store only keeps industrial grade fasteners.
When this fisasco is over the then drive 23 km to the specialists fastener shop and pay the same price as they would have from the local shop, but that is OK because they are a specality shop and speciality shops are always dearer because the keep better stock.

I would like to hear how the throttle body Walbro runs and know its reliability. I did not read "MTD" as using machines (but I am out of the pro loop). The machines advertising the efi on the Cub Cadet site are a single cyl model # XT1LT42 stamped deck,single XT1LT46 fab deck and XT2LX 42 twin cyl stamped deck. Out here NW there is a dealer in Portland OR, but no machines at the local dealer franchised to handle them. Again I wonder (aloud) how someone purchasing one of these could ever get service in view of poor testimonies on the more common tractors?? Today at Home Depot I did see a Cub Cadet, but not the efi model. So the "common man" version of efi machine cannot be trouble shot by the owner unlike the blink system of the commercial units. I wonder what the bare , replaceable throttle body Walbro costs?

moto, nobody stocks the EFI engine in my area either, and the dealers I have spoken to have refused to order any on their spring stocking order.

Well after only a year to 18 months ( since announcement?) the pipeline is pretty empty. I do remember after many years of carbureted cars that even the (relatively) primitive throttle body had impressive throttle response, but was fairly quickly replaced with the port efi. That was in the early 1980's if memory serves. But throttle response is not so significant in lawn tractors. Nevertheless seems like an $1800 big box price is pretty impressive depending upon the performance and reliability. Maybe I will put a thread in cub cadet forum for owners to "tell all.":smile: