Export thread

I have a Cub Cadet Lt1042 that was giving me problems. It had a Kohler SV600 20 hp motor in it. It would keep shearing the keyway. it really needs a new crankshaft and flywheel. Near the keyway is a chunk missing and on the flywheel there are a few deep grooves. I have tried JB weld to a epoxy i used at a place i worked we used for motors and pumps and it sealed everything up. Instead of spending about $300 ( $85 used crank and $200something for flywheel) i had a running Briggs and Stratton 21 hp Intek V Twin Cylinder motor. I swapped the motors. The Briggs motor pops, burps, farts, backfires through the carb and muffler. When i do get it running it idles nice but has no power to move. I have put new plugs in it, changed the carb with new fuel solenoid, adjusted valves, checked timing, (now it wont run at all after checking) and drained all old gas out and put in new gas. The motor sat for about 2 years. It acts like too much gas is going into the cylinders but when pulled the plugs they were little carboned up and no gas on them. After changing the fuel i did clean and change the fuel filter and pump and took the carb back off and cleaned it again as a precaution that the gas was bad. When the fuel solenoid is unplugged it sounds better when trying to start. Only thing i haven't done is check compression. In spinning motor over without plugs in it and fuel disconnected you put your hand over spark plug hole you can feel good compression. exhaust isn't plugged either.

You are going to call me a real A$*2&.$, but your post throws up so many red flags that I don’t know if you have the experience needed to make any repairs. I’ll try by asking a few questions in a different way. First, shearing a flywheel key, in your case, is primarily caused by improper torquing of the flywheel nut during reassembly. This explains the damage to both the crank and flywheel. Have no idea of what you mean by deep grooves on the flywheel. JB weld on parts, WAY WRONG. Second, swapping Kohler engine to Briggs, who did the electrical retiring? Third, throwing parts at it, hoping something will stick. From your description I know you have no idea how a carb works. If your carb has a fuel shutoff solenoid, your engine should NOT run when you unplug the solenoid. You say yours starts and runs rough, which makes no sense. Fourth, acts like it’s running rich, but plugs are dry, tells me it’s not running rich. If it is running rich you would see black smoke. Fifth, testing for compression with your thumb is very old school and a DIY guy has no idea of what this is telling them. Sixth, why would you be looking at a plugged exhaust system?

Because I’m hundreds if not thousands of miles away it is really hard to tell you how to proceed. Please explain each of the areas I addressed and provide us with all engine numbers, model, type and code for Briggs engine and model and spec numbers for the Kohler engine. Sorry, but I have to be brutally honest, part of my upbringing.

I see I am not the only getting tired of the Space Cadets here.

I even had one SC to show up at my place at 2am Sunday demanding me to fix his mower right away. When I gave him my rate for after hours Sunday work he call me a AHole and I ordered off the property. Double the rates. He started to come back but got the point rather quickly when he saw my Comanche in my hand...

I just don't some potential customers just because from home they want to think I am available 24/7.

Rivets said:

You are going to call me a real A$*2&.$, but your post throws up so many red flags that I don’t know if you have the experience needed to make any repairs. I’ll try by asking a few questions in a different way. First, shearing a flywheel key, in your case, is primarily caused by improper torquing of the flywheel nut during reassembly. This explains the damage to both the crank and flywheel. Have no idea of what you mean by deep grooves on the flywheel. JB weld on parts, WAY WRONG. Second, swapping Kohler engine to Briggs, who did the electrical retiring? Third, throwing parts at it, hoping something will stick. From your description I know you have no idea how a carb works. If your carb has a fuel shutoff solenoid, your engine should NOT run when you unplug the solenoid. You say yours starts and runs rough, which makes no sense. Fourth, acts like it’s running rich, but plugs are dry, tells me it’s not running rich. If it is running rich you would see black smoke. Fifth, testing for compression with your thumb is very old school and a DIY guy has no idea of what this is telling them. Sixth, why would you be looking at a plugged exhaust system?

Because I’m hundreds if not thousands of miles away it is really hard to tell you how to proceed. Please explain each of the areas I addressed and provide us with all engine numbers, model, type and code for Briggs engine and model and spec numbers for the Kohler engine. Sorry, but I have to be brutally honest, part of my upbringing.

Click to expand...

It's fine. First off the keyway sheared by my wife hit a root while mowing. The key scored the inside of the flywheel where the keyway sits. It also broke a chunk of the shaft. Second the JB Weld was steel epoxy that has/is used in repairing issues like the one I had with the Kohler motor. Many videos on it. I tried but my stuff was too far gone. As far as the wiring goes,I had to change a few wires but it is mostly the same. Third I never said it ran with the fuel solenoid unplugged. I tried to run it when valve covers were off and solenoid unplugged so it wouldn't start. Every time it has run the solenoid has been plugged in. That is also when yes I put my over the spark plug holes to feel for compression. Yes it is old school, but I was also just looking for any type of difference in pressure. Yes I know a few lbs can make a difference. Was looking for something glaringly different. As far as plugged exhaust it would cause back pressure into the motor causing issues.

I mean if you don't want to help them don't. Working on lawnmowers is not my profession. If you don't want to help people or call them space cadets then don't help them and I will go somewhere else for help. Thought this forum was here for help not to be called names for someone trying to save money

The way you worded your first post really doesn’t help us help you. That’s probably why I asked for clarification. You say you are claiming to ask for help, but as a technician for 50+ years I’ve seen it multiple times where people are unable to understand what we do and how we do it on this forum. We can’t help you unless you provide us with a better picture of what you are dealing with. And you still can’t find any model numbers? Even though I have helped hundreds of people on this forum, your last post confirms to me that I will be of little help in solving this problem, so this will be my last post, unless your attitude toward the people trying to help you, CHANGES BIG TIME.

Rivets said:

The way you worded your first post really doesn’t help us help you. That’s probably why I asked for clarification. You say you are claiming to ask for help, but as a technician for 50+ years I’ve seen it multiple times where people are unable to understand what we do and how we do it on this forum. We can’t help you unless you provide us with a better picture of what you are dealing with. And you still can’t find any model numbers? Even though I have helped hundreds of people on this forum, your last post confirms to me that I will be of little help in solving this problem, so this will be my last post, unless your attitude toward the people trying to help you, CHANGES BIG TIME.

Click to expand...

My attitude is fine. I asked for help that is all. Instead I get ripped for asking for help. Called different names and I am supposed to find with it? Yeah I have model #'s that I forgot to put in because I was a little upset with the way I was talked too.

Yes some that comes here are Space Cadets sorry but it is the truth; just don't want to listen but want to argue those that are more experienced.

Personally I have never gotten JB Weld to work on anything. Everytime I tried it, it was major disappointment. I got an idea you used a steel key when you replaced the first sheared key and under torqued the flywheel which lead to the damages.

When you changed the carburetor you probably purchase a cheap clone which are to be mostly improper carburetors.

As compression test on this engine it is of no use as the engine has an automatic compression release system. You would need to perform a lead down test. Also when you adjusted you adjust the one closest to flywheel as the exhaust valve. Also you need make sure both rockers are moving the same amount. If they not moving the same then the camshaft has a worn lobe which causes problems.

One other thing these engines have two inherit problems. The ACR on camshaft are bad to fail as is the head gasket. ACR failure is by the lack of movement of the intake rocker as the engine approaches TDC compression stroke. And blown head gasket are found by doing the leak down test and listening at the push rod galley with the rocker cover off.

BTW the first of the model is probably 33.

Your right JB Weld failed. I used Kohler keys. When it first sheered the cub cadet ran fine for 3 years before it sheered. When it sheered I noticed then the grooves and chunk missing. Yes first time I changed the key I didn't torque it down. After that I did torque it down. What was the torque I do not remember off the top of my head. This happened last year end of season. I tried again the beginning of this season to get it to start but it just sheers it. Tired from trying to get it to run I turned to my other mower. That motor ran 2 years ago when it was parked. It kept eating main belts. Yes I would go to tractor supply and purchase belts for it. So I switched the motors. I changed the plugs did the wiring I had to do since I can't afford to buy the wire adapter for it. When finished installing I tried to start it. Of course didn't want to start right away. Did finally start and run for a minute then stall. While trying to start it would backfire through the car and through the muffler. When it stalled it backfired and stalled out. I pulled the plugs and the driver side plug was loaded with gas and the the passenger side was carboned up. I changed the plugs and the carb. Yes I did find a cheap $40 carb and tried that. Once again it took a few minutes then it would run and run beautiful for a few then backfire and die. Try to restart it and it would only backfire. The carb did not fix the problem. It backfired before I put the carb on and after I put the carb on. Thought was maybe solenoid gummed up since it sat for 2 years. Checked valve clearance next valves were out of adjustment (between 4-6). I set them all to 5. That is when I turned it over with the plugs out. I put it all back together and tried to start it. Started ran for maybe a minute then backfired again and died. It backfired through the carb and muffler. Next I figured I would check the timing on it. While I had the flywheel off I cleaned the magnets and the ring. Put it back together and same thing. I think I sheered the key this time (torqued to 150 ft lbs). I ordered keys and won't be here till next week. I did change the gas in the mower, replace the fuel filter and fuel pump.

Cub cadet is a LT1042 with Kohler 20 hp (SV600)
Troy bilt with Briggs and Stratton 21 V Tek Twin Cylinder OHC. 809H

The Briggs and Stratton motor model # is 407777-128-1E

Cub cadet SV600. That is about all I can tell you on the motor.

That changes things as what I was referring to was the 21 hp Single Intek engine. The v-twin is not know for ACR failures or head gasket issues.

Model number correction 407777-0128-E1 Actually was rated for 22 hp Gross.

If no been inside the engine the mechanical timing should be right. Kinda wish the engine was in the shop as I try a set ignition coils as one of them may have failed timing wise. Very unusual to have engine back firing (Intake side) and after firing (exhaust side) at the same time.

One thing to check is the intake manifold I have heard them splitting and causing problem from lean issues. Haven't seen it personally; although, I did have replace one due someone heavy fist tightening the screws attaching it the cylinder heads and warping the flanges.

And have seen worn camshaft lobes on these camshafts.

I'll check the intake. I am pretty sure I didn't over torque it but it is a possibility. What is driving me crazy is when it does start to run it runs beautiful but then starts backfiring and stalls and just cranks and cranks and backfires. I've had the thought of the fuel solenoid not controlling the fuel flow or closing and it is allowing too much fuel into the cylinders? I did have to wire that.

As a side note in 2019 I did some work for a gentleman that fixed lawnmowers and sold them. I replaced the intake gasket on his pacifica. Anyways he gave me both the riding mowers. Neither ran. They had been sitting for awhile in a field. The troy bilt needed a new starter solenoid and the cub cadet was a new starter. The reason I didn't use the troy bilt as it has the shifter between your legs and the brakes didn't work on it. We like using the foot controls on the cub cadet. I have a 48 in snow blade I hope to use this winter on it.

Go to this link and tell us which carb that engine has?
Is it the dual throat 125 or the single throat 125?
Are you saying your Briggs twin NOW idles OK but will not rev up when advancing the throttle?
Really need to know which carb that engine is using??????????

Next thing about your Kohler with the bad crankshaft keyway.
When the tapered shaft is clean and the taper inside the flywheel are both free of oil and TORQUED properly the aluminum key is only used for placement of the flywheel so as the engine is TIMED CORRECTLY.
I've used engines without a ALUMINUM flywheel key by assembling and torqueing the flywheel properly. I've seen where some people (space cadets) even lubed the tapered shaft so as the flywheel could be removed easier next time. (bad idea)
The aluminum key is not to prevent the flywheel from spinning on the crankshaft. You were not cleaning/installing the Kohler flywheel properly is why it's now in bad shape.

1. The Kohler broke the keyway when it hit a root and got jammed. First few times I will admit I did not torque it down. When I looked up why it kept breaking I found it needed to be torqued down. Even after doing that it still broke. In the pictures that is how I found the keyway and flywheel when I first took it apart. As far as the carb goes I believe it is a double based on the fuel solenoid that it has. I am not a small engine mechanic. I don't have 20-50 years experience doing this. I can say I do not have the money to take it to a shop or to buy OE stuff.

It won't let me upload pictures. files are too big

I think I figured out the problem. I'll fill in if I am right. I won't get the keyways for this motor till next week so I'll post probably Wednesday next week

Often when the key shears it damages the key ways in the flywheel or the crankshaft
Check carefully and you will probably find a lip on one edge on one of both
These will need to be removed carefully before you replace the key or the flywheel will not be able to lock onto the taper and the key will keep on shearing .

We all are getting worn down by these OP's stating they have perfect fuel flow, strong spark, solid compression and tons of air. Still can't get the mower to run????????

At this link does your Briggs have the 125 Dual throat carb or 125A single throat carb?

I replied it has double.

I did not see where you stated for sure it is the double throat type. (by looking at the IPL of the carbs in the link)
Both type carbs use a fuel solenoid so that cannot be used as a ID to my question.
The reason I asked which carb is being used is because I've seen different running symptoms (issues) depending on which carb is used when the carb starts going bad or when a Clone is used as a replacement.
When we ask you questions we have our reasons for such. You are our eyes so we can try to get on the same page as you when trying to help you.

I seen this statement in your post #14 is why I asked again for a confirm.
As far as the carb goes I believe it is a double based on the fuel solenoid that it has.

Forest#2 said:

I did not see where you stated for sure it is the double throat type. (by looking at the IPL of the carbs in the link)
Both type carbs use a fuel solenoid so that cannot be used as a ID to my question.
The reason I asked which carb is being used is because I've seen different running symptoms (issues) depending on which carb is used when the carb starts going bad or when a Clone is used as a replacement.
When we ask you questions we have our reasons for such. You are our eyes so we can try to get on the same page as you when trying to help you.

I seen this statement in your post #14 is why I asked again for a confirm.
As far as the carb goes I believe it is a double based on the fuel solenoid that it has.

Click to expand...

I have the parts break down from Briggs which is the same as the one you asked me to go to. In looking at the fuel solenoid there are 2 versions of it. One built before code date 04080400. That is the fuel solenoid my carb has which is double barrel steel bowl. The id on the carb only says Nikki R. I believe my problem is the carb I bought. It has the newer version fuel solenoid.

You say:
I believe my problem is the carb I bought. It has the newer version fuel solenoid.

Chances are you are correct about a China clone replacement when they are the double throat type.
If you got it using Amazon Prime you can get a FREE return and refund for all.

Here is a link that shows some good useful info about them Nikki carbs, but usually not any need into taking a NEW clone one apart because you got one that was built bad and chance of repair is slim to none. I have taken parts out of a clone in the bowl are, o rings and jets and used into a real Nikki. Most generally no need in going into the upper part of them, just the bowl area and it's really common for the O-rings on the jets to be bad plus the upper gaskets.
https://outdoorpowerinfo.com/repairs/

Note that I did not say you have a bad carb, but here is some info about those that I've saved/filed for reference and put to good use.

Here is more info when getting deep into a dual throat Nikki. (and the other ones)
some of the info is reduntant because I C/P'ed
Info about your carb

https://outdoorpowerinfo.com/repairs/



A kt that has the o rings/gaskets

Amazon.com: 797890 Carburetor Overhaul Kit for Brigg 791230 799230 699709 499804 MIA10632 Carb V-Twin 4 Cycle 20HP 21HP 23HP 24HP 25HP Engine John JD MIA10632 LA135 LA120 LA130 LA140 LA145 : Patio, Lawn & Garden



Use these number when browsing for a kit.

APHP 797890 796997 791230 Carburetor Overhaul Rebuild Kit for J&D LA120 LA130 LA135 LA140 LA145 LA150 LA165 LA155 Z425 Z245 L111 L118 L120 X140 D150 D160 D170 Lawn Tractor Husqvarna YTH22V46 YTH2348




5 2017

Small engines repairs links

Carbs, etc

https://outdoorpowerinfo.com/repairs/



12/2022

Nikki dual throat carb repair/rebuilding links

Nikki dual throat carb tips and re-building LINK.

Guy asks about jets sizing and re-building a dual throat Nikki carb

https://www.lawnmowerforum.com/threads/nikki-dual-carb-main-jets.29187/



You tube video part 1: (newer style aluminum float bowl Nikki) USE KIT 54832 @ $7




part 2 (older model with steel float bowl) USE KIT 54833 or 54834 @ $9 each depending on the style of Nikki. See part 2 of the video to determine which kit needed.




Search on-line for

VITON o-rings for Briggs & Stratton Nikki carburetor main jets rebuild kit

VITON o-rings for Briggs & Stratton Nikki carburetor main jets rebuild kit for sale

bertsmobile1 said:

Often when the key shears it damages the key ways in the flywheel or the crankshaft
Check carefully and you will probably find a lip on one edge on one of both
These will need to be removed carefully before you replace the key or the flywheel will not be able to lock onto the taper and the key will keep on sheari

Click to expand...

Forest#2 said:

You say:
I believe my problem is the carb I bought. It has the newer version fuel solenoid.

Chances are you are correct about a China clone replacement when they are the double throat type.
If you got it using Amazon Prime you can get a FREE return and refund for all.

Here is a link that shows some good useful info about them Nikki carbs, but usually not any need into taking a NEW clone one apart because you got one that was built bad and chance of repair is slim to none. I have taken parts out of a clone in the bowl are, o rings and jets and used into a real Nikki. Most generally no need in going into the upper part of them, just the bowl area and it's really common for the O-rings on the jets to be bad plus the upper gaskets.
https://outdoorpowerinfo.com/repairs/

Note that I did not say you have a bad carb, but here is some info about those that I've saved/filed for reference and put to good use.

Here is more info when getting deep into a dual throat Nikki. (and the other ones)
some of the info is reduntant because I C/P'ed
Info about your carb

https://outdoorpowerinfo.com/repairs/



A kt that has the o rings/gaskets

Amazon.com: 797890 Carburetor Overhaul Kit for Brigg 791230 799230 699709 499804 MIA10632 Carb V-Twin 4 Cycle 20HP 21HP 23HP 24HP 25HP Engine John JD MIA10632 LA135 LA120 LA130 LA140 LA145 : Patio, Lawn & Garden



Use these number when browsing for a kit.

APHP 797890 796997 791230 Carburetor Overhaul Rebuild Kit for J&D LA120 LA130 LA135 LA140 LA145 LA150 LA165 LA155 Z425 Z245 L111 L118 L120 X140 D150 D160 D170 Lawn Tractor Husqvarna YTH22V46 YTH2348




5 2017

Small engines repairs links

Carbs, etc

https://outdoorpowerinfo.com/repairs/



12/2022

Nikki dual throat carb repair/rebuilding links

Nikki dual throat carb tips and re-building LINK.

Guy asks about jets sizing and re-building a dual throat Nikki carb

https://www.lawnmowerforum.com/threads/nikki-dual-carb-main-jets.29187/



You tube video part 1: (newer style aluminum float bowl Nikki) USE KIT 54832 @ $7

part 2 (older model with steel float bowl) USE KIT 54833 or 54834 @ $9 each depending on the style of Nikki. See part 2 of the video to determine which kit needed.

Search on-line for

VITON o-rings for Briggs & Stratton Nikki carburetor main jets rebuild kit

VITON o-rings for Briggs & Stratton Nikki carburetor main jets rebuild kit for sale

Click to expand...

Kewl thank you very much

Maybe to late for this, Keyway on the Koler should be able to fix by tig welding the chipped area. I have had success with shaft keyways, If you try, a must is to heat the shaft before welding if you do not heat the shaft it could bend. Anyone that wants more detail let me know, glad to share.

The key is just for timing so there is no need to weld & remachine
The taper does all of the work
But a very small burr will prevent the taper from locking
On more than one engine I have needed to lap the taper in with lapping paste because it was too badly scored to lock tight.

Have a B & S 23hp Intek VTwin engine that has sheered several fly wheel keys due to inproper fly wheel torque, which is150 ft.#.

Problem; without a B & S fly wheel holder, which I don't have, is there some other way to hold the fly wheel in place??

You ever try a nylon strap from a ratchet strap?

Just let it wrap around the flywheel several times and then secure the end and then torque the flywheel nut.

I cannot recommend the rope method on your OHV because you can bend/break warp valves. This is feeding a chunk of rope into the cylinder and then as the piston comes up it contacts the rope. I use this method with care on small 2 cycle engines. The small 2 cycles do not have valves but have to be careful and make sure none of the rope is hanging out the exhaust port or the piston can cock sideways and cause damage.

"You ever try a nylon strap from a ratchet strap"?

Have not heard or seen that, will take a look. Going to try a 12 in. pair of vice grips around the fly wheel "flange" that is around the crank shaft. Have put 1 around it and locked it down hard, doesn't look like it will move.

Will be in touch.

Very important.
Clean up the tapers, both of them nice & shinny with a wire brush
Run your thumb nail around the hole and feel for any burrs particularly around the key slots
Any burr there, even if it is as small as 0.0001" will prevent the tapers from locking and must be removed
I file the burrs with a warding file then lap the two tapers against each other with lapping paste

Believe I "shelled" the engine this time. No compression,either cylinder. Valves don't move on #2.

Sometimes you can tie a knot in the end of the strap and when wrapping leave the knot sticking up out of the first wrap so as you can keep the next wraps from immediately slipping. You can do some looking and find a place to tie the other end so as its secure as the flywheel is turned to take up the slack. The nylon strap will not stretch hardly any once the slack is removed for the torque wrench. On the old flywheels that have the cast fins just stick the first knot between the fins then start wrapping..
Your engine has the plastic bolt on fins so just remove them or leave them off until torqued.

Make sure both the crank and the flywheel taper is really clean. Use lacquer thinner on a rag and wipe clean several times. No lube at all on either.

A flywheel key on a riding mower shouldn't actually shear due to hitting something with the blade because the fact that it is belt driven allows enough slippage 98 times out of 100 that you will not shear a key.
In fact, no riding lawn mower or no more engine at all actually needs the key. They are not designed to actually hold anything in place but rather just a carryover design that is still being used for the assembly process to make sure they get the flagpole on in the correct position.
If the flywheel and the crankshaft is clean and dry and torque properly, the friction alone holds it far more than the key ever will especially on a Briggs which is a soft aluminum key.
It's kind of odd that Briggs uses a soft key and Kohler and Honda and others use a steel key.
Most the time when I'm riding lawn mower engine she is a key is because of a safety switch or someone turning the ignition switch on and off multiple times and the on-again/off again jerking from the ignition turning on and off causes the key to be sheared.

My biggest concern is did you set the valves with the Piston one half inch pass top dead center.
If you did not this could be your problem. They do not set like a automotive engine and they do also do not set like the color engines that said it top dead center. On the Briggs engines you have to get them to talk dead center of the compression stroke and then go down at least one half inch more.

The carburetor is kind of a moot point. Whether it's doing the right fuel delivery or not is irrelevant because all you have to do is put some gas in a spray bottle or use a can of carb cleaner spray and spray it right into the throat of the carburetor. If your timing, ignition, valve adjustment and everything else is mechanically adequate, then it will start and run as long as you give it a fuel source which is your carb spray.

I would try this first because I think you have something else going on besides a carburetor if it simply won't run.

Not quite right there Toby
All of the Australian made ride ons drove the decks from the rear , even the front engined ones
So akin to ZTR's when the deck it something and got pushed back, the belt tension was reduced and the belt does in fact reduce.
This is also what they all use standard polly belts and not the very expensive kevlar ones that all USA mowers need.
Conversely when USA made tractor style mowers hit something and the deck is pushed back the belt tightens so it either snaps or stalls the engine
Got dozens of Greenfield & Cox mowers in my run plus the 8 I lend out when I get overwhelmed and not a single one has ever broken a belt in fact most of them are sill running the original standard unwrapped polly belt that I fitted near a decade ago .

You say:
Believe I "shelled" the engine this time. No compression,either cylinder. Valves don't move on #2.

Which engine and what did you do or not do to cause Murphy to appear??????????

Pulled the # 1 head, exhaust push rod on # 1 cylinder is nowhere to be found, its gone....and its steel, intake is aluminum.

B & S Intek VTwin 23 hp. mod.445577-0499-E

Do believe the last time I ran this beast I had not torqued the fly wheel down enough. Made a terrible sound before it quit. Will be removing engine from tractor to work bench.

Not gonna like what I'm going to find.

Two engines with flywheel not torqued, HMMMMMMM,

but I doubt that flywheel caused the push rod to go into the crankcase area.
I would probably try to use a small magnet and see if the push rod can be recovered before taking the engine apart, but both cylinders had no compression and push rods not moving any on one cylinder.
Your descriptions sounds like the inspection is going to be sadness.

Good luck to Ya.

Well, I'M a practicing brain surgeon & professional solitare player. Thought I'd "branch" out into another profession. U know, something to fall back on.

Will be in touch.

bertsmobile1 said:

Not quite right there Toby
All of the Australian made ride ons drove the decks from the rear , even the front engined ones
So akin to ZTR's when the deck it something and got pushed back, the belt tension was reduced and the belt does in fact reduce.
This is also what they all use standard polly belts and not the very expensive kevlar ones that all USA mowers need.
Conversely when USA made tractor style mowers hit something and the deck is pushed back the belt tightens so it either snaps or stalls the engine
Got dozens of Greenfield & Cox mowers in my run plus the 8 I lend out when I get overwhelmed and not a single one has ever broken a belt in fact most of them are sill running the original standard unwrapped polly belt that I fitted near a decade ago .

Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you're talking about not being quite right.
I know nothing about Australian mowers so I was making a generalization about riding lawn mowers in the US.
I'm not sure what belt type has to do with much of anything as they only use the coded belts here because they are a clutched application and it's supposed to make the belt last longer than a standard rubber style automotive v belt and possibly prevent it sticking when it shouldn't.

My comments were that it's very rare to have a sheared flywheel key on a riding lawn mower and I will stick by that comment at least for the most common Briggs & stratton, Tecumseh, Kawasaki engines in the US over the past 35 years.
We get very, very few Hondas on riders but I would say those are probably the same.
I have seen riders and personally hit lots of things with riding mower blades enough to bend them in a 90° angle like hitting Giant roots, bricks, or even a four-way lug wrench I once ran over and none of them ever harmed the engine in any way.
They rarely even stall the engine they just alter its speed for a split second or the blade locks up and starts to burn the belt.
The deck normally doesn't hit anything and there's not a lot of moving around at all even when the blade does hit something. Very rarely do any of these belts snap even from hitting something.
They only snap when they are so old and worn out that they are cracked in multiple places where you could probably wiggle him a few times and pull them apart with two people.

And all of my experiences with them even if the belt does get stopped by the blade hitting something etc and even if the belt is tight around the pulley, it only goes around the engine pulley barely halfway and it doesn't have enough friction to stop the crankshaft in its place and allow them inertia and momentum from the flywheel to keep going and share the key. The crankshaft pulley at the belt continues to move some so the key way is just fine.
On push mowers it's completely different because there is no belt to slip on the vast majority of them so they often damage flywheel keys but actually they more commonly than the crankshaft and bend the blade and damage the blade adapter.
I would estimate that for every 10 push mowers I get in with a blade strike a little under two have a damaged flywheel key and the rest have other issues but the key is just fine.

srwa said:

Pulled the # 1 head, exhaust push rod on # 1 cylinder is nowhere to be found, its gone....and its steel, intake is aluminum.

B & S Intek VTwin 23 hp. mod.445577-0499-E

Do believe the last time I ran this beast I had not torqued the fly wheel down enough. Made a terrible sound before it quit. Will be removing engine from tractor to work bench.

Not gonna like what I'm going to find.

Click to expand...

Ah the infamous missing push rod. It happens quite often on this engine.
Normally it's from a slipped valve guide that caused the push rod to bend and pop off in the first place but it can happen without any actual head damage but always be cautious and trying to repair it because normally there is a reason to push rod bent and disappeared in the first place.
It will be bent in an S shape and inside your crankcase.
Use a bright flashlight and a small magnetic pickup tool and you might be able to reach in there and find it but I've never been that lucky well maybe once.

I have repaired a number of these, once even and a guy's backyard while he watched.
It only takes about 12 minutes to pull the engine from the machine and then you should drain the oil out of it so it won't make as much of a mess.
I think there's 13 bolts that hold the base plate on.
So you should clean all that up really well or blow it off with compressed air or a good stiff brush and take the bottom off and you'll be able to get the push right out of there..
Then you can look around and see if there's any damage which there probably won't be just make sure there's no other metal pieces and they're floating around or whatever. I like to run a magnet around.
And then you can put it back together but be cautious...
You have to pull the 35/16 bolts off of the oil pump cover and take the oil pump gear out before putting this base plate back on are you risk a great chance of jamming up the oil pump by it not lining up and then you will have no lubrication and once you start and run it it will lock up and snap a rod in about 1 minute or two.
Once you have the bottom sump back on and torque down with a new gasket preferably but if the old one doesn't come apart too badly you can clean it and use some RTV anywhere it rips or a thin smear around it then, you can drop the oil pump gear and drive shaft back into place and put the flat metal cover back on.

Now you have to fix whatever the problem was the first place which is probably a slip is exhaust valve guide from overheating because that head probably had a lot of grease or grime or grass or nest build up on it.

You don't have to replace a head even though that's the official fix for a slip valve guide and pop exhaust valve seats and I can almost guarantee that after I fix one it will be stronger than the original was or the new one you can buy.

You have to put some rope or something in the cylinder and slightly rotate the Piston up to touch it to push to keep the valves mostly closed and then take the valve stem spring retainers and keepers and spring off of that valve.
Then you were really see how the guy is pushed out and why the rocker arm can't push that one down as far as the other one but you get also inspect this before you take anything apart by pushing with your thumb and looking with a bright flashlight.

Then you have to clean it up really well, I prefer carb cleaner to get all the oil off of it, and then I like to use red loctite even though it might not make any difference, it makes me feel better.
So I slather it with a good amount of red loctite but make sure I keep the lock tight off of the actual valve stem and then I drive it back into it's approximate proper position by tapping it with a hammer..
It won't take much because they're not very tight which is the problem to begin with..
You have to make sure you don't go too far but you can kind of gauge it from the other one or even look at the other head.
Then the key is you have to stake it.
You can even use some old school machine shop ideas and you could drill it and pin it but that's probably not necessary.
Staking involves using a punch or I prefer to use a number two Roberts square Drive bit and go around like 10:00 position 12:00 6:00 3:00 9:00 and then do the other ones in the middle of those and stake it with a hammer and your bit so you're pushing into the aluminum pushing it towards the valve guide so it's tightening it up.
You kind of have to get good at it and do it just the right position but it is easier on a valve guide than it is on a valve seat but once you do all this and the lock type probably helps, I've never had one move again.
So then you've got the engine back together and you've got the head fixed that was the offender in the first place so now you just have to put the new push rod in unless you're crazy enough to hammer it back into place and get it mostly straight which can be done but I don't recommend it.
Then you have to turn the engine over to get it on top dead center of the compression stroke and then turn it until the Piston goes down one half inch past that point and then you have to adjust both push rods which is kind of a pain in the butt on the bricks because it takes three or four times to get them just right.

Then you put the valve covers back on and you're done.
I always Mount the engine back to the machine after I get the base plate back on and I do the valve guide repair and adjust the valves with it on the mower.
It's really only about an hour and 15 minutes start to finish but that's when you have all the tools already out and ready to go because you've done it many times.

srwa says:
Well, I'M a practicing brain surgeon & professional solitare player. Thought I'd "branch" out into another profession. U know, something to fall back on.

Falling back on Briggs as another profession.

Practicing brain surgeon. I'll remember that one next time I'm opening up a Briggs for surgery.

Good luck to ya. Hang tough. At least we can get parts for them Briggs for now if we can afford them. Briggs seems to be headed same direction as Tecumseh.
May have to keep practicing for the Pro Solitare Tournaments.

Keep us informed as to what you find.

This is heading for an 11 page posting.

Good advice offered and none taken to resolve the issue.

Had breakfast on top of the block this morning,its that clean.

srwa said:

Had breakfast on top of the block this morning,its that clean.

Click to expand...

Yep, I've had carbs so clean that I could eat meals out of their bowls and they still would not work correctly.
But clean is a good thing.

srwa said:

Had breakfast on top of the block this morning,its that clean.

Click to expand...

Keep it that way. It's a yearly maintenance item in your engine manual.

Forest#2 said:

Yep, I've had carbs so clean that I could eat meals out of their bowls and they still would not work correctly.
But clean is a good thing.

Click to expand...

Must be from some of my customers who say they "cleaned out the carburetor" but yet it' still won't run.
Then, I clean out the carburetor, at least the important parts that need to be cleaned and guess what...it runs perfectly.

Well put the mower back together today and charged the battery. Got it to run for a couple of minutes then died out again. I was able to back it up and move it forward before it died. Had no power at all. I'm thinking tomorrow I am gonna recheck my valve gap. I it's supposed to be between 4-6. I set them last time to 5 pretty much using the go/no go method. 5 slide in and 6 doesn't. Any suggestions

garry6913 said:

Well put the mower back together today and charged the battery. Got it to run for a couple of minutes then died out again. I was able to back it up and move it forward before it died. Had no power at all. I'm thinking tomorrow I am gonna recheck my valve gap. I it's supposed to be between 4-6. I set them last time to 5 pretty much using the go/no go method. 5 slide in and 6 doesn't. Any suggestions

Click to expand...

You asked:
Any suggestions

Wondering if you torqued the flywheel nut properly.

Forest#2 said:

You asked:
Any suggestions

Wondering if you torqued the flywheel nut properly.

Click to expand...

Yes 150 foot pounds

garry6913 said:

Yes 150 foot pounds

Click to expand...

What? OMG. Is that the factory spec?

slomo said:

What? OMG. Is that the factory spec?

Click to expand...

Everything I am finding for that engine (model 407777-128-1e) says 150 foot lbs

Yup, I saw that just now. 150 it is.

Back to basics.

Fuel, ignition (at the right time), compression

Forest#2 said:

Back to basics.

Fuel, ignition (at the right time), compression

Click to expand...

Little air wouldn't hurt either.

Adjusted valves again as they were tight. Clean the spark plugs again. Tried to start it and had lots of backfire through the carb. Even had flames at one time. I tried to check compression but my compression gauge is off. Left Bank was about 180 and the right bank was about 210. I gotta get another one as this one is from the early 90's and not sure how reliable it is anymore. The right bank spark plug was loaded with carbon. Left Bank had none. Push rods are straight and good as well forgot to mention that.

garry6913 said:

Tried to start it and had lots of backfire through the carb.

Click to expand...

Flywheel key or cam issue.

slomo said:

Flywheel key or cam issue.

Click to expand...

Even though it ran last night for a few minutes. Had no power and died as I was trying to give it gas to move back to where I had it

garry6913 said:

Even though it ran last night for a few minutes. Had no power and died as I was trying to give it gas to move back to where I had it

Click to expand...

Backfiring through either carb or muffler is either late or early ignition timing or some cam/valve issue.

It ran but poorly and down on power.

slomo said:

Backfiring through either carb or muffler is either late or early ignition timing or some cam/valve issue.

It ran but poorly and down on power.

Click to expand...

Gotcha

Pull the flywheel key. Make sure the key and keyway where the key sits, both are PERFECT in all dimensions. Obviously the keyway and flywheel are perfectly inline.

slomo said:

Pull the flywheel key. Make sure the key and keyway where the key sits, both are PERFECT in all dimensions. Obviously the keyway and flywheel are perfectly inline.

Click to expand...

I. I'll let you know afterwards what happened with it

Well, this is my long,sad,sordid tale of woe, probably bring a tear to a pawn broker's eye.

Pulled the sump(oil pan) off the engine. What a mess, where # 9 bolt hole is sump is split. Exhaust push rod is in many pieces, several teeth off the camshaft & crankshaft gears, end of the camshaft gear, where the oil "piece" goes in is split/broken. Part of the sump where the oil pump is, is broken off.

"Apparently" the last time I started the engine and ran the tractor, it slipped time, big time.

Am I missing something??

srwa:
I just now noticed that you are not the Original Posted (OP) that started this thread. Appears you need to find a short block and then start your own post.
Not user friendly staying on the same page with two posters in same thread 7 pages long.

gary6913: (was the OP)

U are absolutely correct, mucho apologies to the thread starter, and Adios

Dumb question what would happen if the oil pressure wire and fuel solenoid wire gets crossed

garry6913 said:

Dumb question what would happen if the oil pressure wire and fuel solenoid wire gets crossed

Click to expand...

Or another question, how did they reach to possibly get crossed up? Must be close neighbors.

slomo said:

Or another question, how did they reach to possibly get crossed up? Must be close neighbor

Click to expand...

Nevermind I answered my own question

garry6913 said:

Nevermind I answered my own question

Click to expand...

Now share it with the group. Might help someone else out.

Glad to hear you got her lined out.

slomo said:

Now share it with the group. Might help someone else out.

Glad to hear you got her lined out.

Click to expand...

Oh the mower still runs like crap. In wiring the motor when I changed it I used the Kohler sv600 motor wire. Only thing is the color wires and swapped from what they should be. On the Kohler the fuel solenoid is a white wire and oil switch is green. Should be fuel solenoid green and oil white.

garry6913 said:

Oh the mower still runs like crap. In wiring the motor when I changed it I used the Kohler sv600 motor wire. Only thing is the color wires and swapped from what they should be. On the Kohler the fuel solenoid is a white wire and oil switch is green. Should be fuel solenoid green and oil white.

Click to expand...

I do have a few things going through my head though.

1. After I put the carb back on, it ran for a few minutes I was even able to move it. Had no power at all. So next morning I checked the valves and they were tight with no play so I adjusted them. Tried to run and in starting it I ended up with a small fire coming out of carb.

2. I am wondering if both coils (ignition modules) are firing. I have checked for spark and both have spark. My thought is if one is intermittent. When I pulled the plugs to adjust the valves I cleaned them and regapped them. The drivers side plug was almost closed. Now when I put it in the first time I gapped it right (not my first rodeo). After trying to start it yesterday I pulled the plugs again and passenger side was carboned up and drivers didn't even look like it fired.

garry6913 said:

I do have a few things going through my head though.

1. After I put the carb back on, it ran for a few minutes I was even able to move it. Had no power at all. So next morning I checked the valves and they were tight with no play so I adjusted them. Tried to run and in starting it I ended up with a small fire coming out of carb.

2. I am wondering if both coils (ignition modules) are firing. I have checked for spark and both have spark. My thought is if one is intermittent. When I pulled the plugs to adjust the valves I cleaned them and regapped them. The drivers side plug was almost closed. Now when I put it in the first time I gapped it right (not my first rodeo). After trying to start it yesterday I pulled the plugs again and passenger side was carboned up and drivers didn't even look like it fired.

Click to expand...

Are you working (asking about) on the Kohler SV600 or the Briggs twin Intek now????
Just want to make sure.

If you can get that engine to run at all trying pulling each spark plug wire one at a time and compare the rpms' sag.
Let us know what you see?

But if you had a spark plug gapped correctly and then pulled the plug and the gap was closed, something is hitting the spark plug tip????????????????????

If you are asking about the Briggs twin OHV intek magnetos, you need to check good fire to both cylinders.
Each one of the kill wires going to each mag has a diode in the wire loom of each coil. these are isolation diodes, isolating one mag from the other.
It's a good thing to check these diodes and compare one to the other using a analog or DMM.

Is that still the OEM dual throat Nikki carb on the Briggs??
Have you been through the carb???
Is the kill wires going to the mags the OEM ones for the OHV Intek???

Forest#2 said:

Are you working (asking about) on the Kohler SV600 or the Briggs twin Intek now????

Click to expand...

Still working on the Briggs. I was just saying the wire harness I used was Kohler.

Spark plug tip closing up after gapped correctly???
What is the number on the spark plugs you are installing???

Forest#2 said:

Spark plug tip closing up after gapped correctly???
What is the number on the spark plugs you are installing???

Click to expand...

It only happened once. I probably didn't gap it. I think my problem is wrong gap in valves. I've set them to 4 thousandths and run engine and they are way out either too loose or too tight. I've spun the motor till the piston is all the way up. I think even though I do that it's not top dead center. I gapped them again and I noticed I can push the valve down with the feeler gauge throwing off my valve clearance.

Valve clearance is .004-.006.
After you set the valves (per page 23 and the specs in the last section of the manual) in the service manual leave the spark plugs out and crank over the engine with the starter few times and re-check.
The valve lash on the twin OHV is not as critical as the lash on the Single cylinder. (for running within reason)
The intake lash is main one to set the ex can be run little loose long enough to check the engine performance.
If a valves lash goes completely out of spec after cranking electrically you will need to closely inspect the rocker, etc for that valve for abnormal wear and that the rocker center stud is secure.
Them twin throat carbs are dogs and can cause all kinds of running issues, even a dead cylinder, spitting back thru the carb throat like valve timing, ignition timing ,etc.
If you get it running again leave the breather off and while it's running pay attention the the carb twin throats, they are isolated from each other.
If only one throat is spitting that is the side you need to check ON THE ENGINE FIRST for compression and valve lash. If the compression and valve lash is ok, it's most generally that side of the Nikki carb. (and when one side of the carb is bad it 's kind alike being just a little bit pregnant)
If one cylinder is dead when running and it has ignition, give that cylinders carb throat just just prime of gas while running and if it momentary picks up the carb is clogged on that side. The carbs are also know to flood on one side.
Watching carefully into the carb throat while the engine is running at medium speed and as you go from idle to high will give you lots of clues. When watching stay back far enough that a backfire will not take off your eyebrows.

Forest#2 said:

Valve clearance is .004-.006.
After you set the valves (per page 23 and the specs in the last section of the manual) in the service manual leave the spark plugs out and crank over the engine with the starter few times and re-check.
The valve lash on the twin OHV is not as critical as the lash on the Single cylinder. (for running within reason)
The intake lash is main one to set the ex can be run little loose long enough to check the engine performance.
If a valves lash goes completely out of spec after cranking electrically you will need to closely inspect the rocker, etc for that valve for abnormal wear and that the rocker center stud is secure.
Them twin throat carbs are dogs and can cause all kinds of running issues, even a dead cylinder, spitting back thru the carb throat like valve timing, ignition timing ,etc.
If you get it running again leave the breather off and while it's running pay attention the the carb twin throats, they are isolated from each other.
If only one throat is spitting that is the side you need to check.
If one cylinder is dead when running and it has ignition, give that cylinders carb throat just just prime of gas while running and if it momentary picks up the carb is clogged on that side. The carbs are also know to flood on one side.
Watching carefully into the carb throat while the engine is running at medium speed and as you go from idle to high will give you lots of clues. When watching stay back far enough that a backfire will not take off your eyebrow

Click to expand...

Only manual I have is one with parts listed and ignition wire diagram and alternator with splicers.

garry6913 said:

Only manual I have is one with parts listed and ignition wire diagram and alternator with splicers.

Click to expand...

Also re-read my above post where I did an edit.
I suspect this is a SERVICE manual for your rig. (paperback)
The CD version is cheaper but not as user friendly.
The carb section is not very good but lots of other good info.
Look up this listing number on flea bay. $18 free shipping from a 100% seller.
Most generally they are about $28
354910114410

I am beginning to think I have 2 separate problems. After I adjusted valves again it sounded nice on trying to start. No backfire. It still wouldn't start. Had no spark now. Pulled flywheel again check key and flywheel. All good. Cleaned up flywheel from any residual rust. Put back together and tried to start it. Had spark this time and backfire through the carb and muffler again. About to take gas and a match to this damn thing.

Patience is your friend.
I sometimes have to let one rest for awhile, let brain clear and go back later.

Keep in mind that a sheared flywheel key normally will not cause loss of spark on your engine. You can move your Briggs flywheel to any position on the crankshaft not paying any attention to the key and it will still spark at the plugs, it just won't spark at the CORRECT TIME for a run.
No fire at BOTH spark plugs sometimes then when you do get ignition it backfires out BOTH the intake and the exhaust as it cranking AND THE VALVE LASH IS CORRECT for BOTH cylinders, you say????

Did you CAREFULLY pay attention to BOTH the carb throats as I suggested in post #75 WHILE IT'S CRANKING AND BACK FIRING? The CARB throats are isolated from each other is why I ask this. If you only see one throat backfiing that is a hint as to which side of the engine is upset.
If you watched, what did you see?
If not do such and give us the results?

Leave the kill wires disconnected from the bottom of BOTH OF THE MAGNETOS and crank, Be aware if it starts you will have to full choke to kill.
If it starts and runs one or both of the isolation diodes is bad in the magneto wire loom.

Forest#2 said:

Patience is your friend.
I sometimes have to let one rest for awhile, let brain clear and go back later.

Keep in mind that a sheared flywheel key normally will not cause loss of spark on your engine. You can move your Briggs flywheel to any position on the crankshaft not paying any attention to the key and it will still spark at the plugs, it just won't spark at the CORRECT TIME for a run.
No fire at BOTH spark plugs sometimes then when you do get ignition it backfires out BOTH the intake and the exhaust as it cranking AND THE VALVE LASH IS CORRECT for BOTH cylinders, you say????

Did you CAREFULLY pay attention to BOTH the carb throats as I suggested in post #75 WHILE IT'S CRANKING AND BACK FIRING? The CARB throats are isolated from each other is why I ask this. If you only see one throat backfiing that is a hint as to which side of the engine is upset.
If you watched, what did you see?
If not do such and give us the results?

Leave the kill wires disconnected from the bottom of BOTH OF THE MAGNETOS and crank, Be aware if it starts you will have to full choke to kill.
If it starts and runs one or both of the isolation diodes is bad in the magneto wire loom.

Click to expand...

I did not. Like you said I am impatient. I am so tired of screwing with this thing. I do need to take a break from it. I will try it again on Wednesday (tomorrow going to bone yard and Tuesday supposed to rain). I will try to check the carb when I try to start it.

This motor hasn't sheared a flywheel key yet.

Valve lash should be good. I have done it many ways as seen on videos. Last time I did it (today) brought it TDC and spun it just till the intake (top valve) started to move. Backed it off a hair. Adjusted to 5 thousands. Spun around put back in same spot and rechecked. Kept doing that on all valves till it was the same every time. I did put it right at TDC as the top valve turned it back 1/4 turn. After adjusting and spinning the flywheel the push rod fell out cause it was so loose. That's when I did the above adjusting. The passenger side valves are tough to adjust. The rocker spins when you tighten it down. The valve can also move when pushing the feeler gauge in.

garry6913 said:

The valve can also move when pushing the feeler gauge in.

Click to expand...

If this is true, you are jamming the feeler gauge in way too tightly.

The drag should be like pulling a piece of paper out of a small book. That's the drag you are looking for when gapping valves. Just a SLIGHT drag is all you need.

Easy way is one valve fully open, SET the other valve lash for that cylinder. Rotate engine around and do the same for the other valve. Set gap with valve on the heel of the cam. NOT the lifting lobe side which is called the toe.

So as a update I adjusted the valves to intake 4 thousandths and exhaust to 6 thousandths. Noticed there was no spark. Checked key again replaced it. Tried to start and still no spark. Disconnected the kill wires . Fired right up and ran beautiful. No backfire, no popping nothing. I believe my problem was a bad ignition switch. My next issue is the main belt. 1 of 2 things happened. The motor moved in a bit and caused the belt to be a little big. The other I forgot to put a guide back in place. I'll figure that out even if I have to buy a smaller belt. Only issue I have is no power on hills. I think that is because of the belt.