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Cub Cadet w/ PTO or Fab Deck w/ EFI

I am in the market to purchase a Cub Cadet this Spring. Ideally the 2018 Enduro XT 2, LX46. There are two versions of this. One with electric PTO and Kohler Engine, the other lacks electronic PTO, but has fabricated deck and electronic fuel injection in a Cub Cadet engine 629cc.

This will be my do everything mower. Mowing an acre, uneven in some areas, will use with plow blade attachment for snow removal, and hauler bucket to move dirt, gravel, etc for future land improvement projects. Based on my yard type, I feel the fabricated deck would hold up better.

Having said that, which engine will work better? K46 transmission in both of them. Budget capped around $2,400.

If I had to decide between the two of electric pto vs efi, how would you decide?

Thanks everyone for your input!

-MM

Do not get the EFI engine. Too many issues and no one knows how to work on them.

BlazNT said:

Do not get the EFI engine. Too many issues and no one knows how to work on them.

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I share the opinion of BlazNT, EFI is still not well known.

I would buy the fuel injection engine because I think it is the Walbro "throttle body" fuel injection. In the Cub Cadet forum I had asked for feedback a while back and believe a new owner has responded favorably. Since I am not a pro and no access to consumer problems I cannot speak first hand. But that particular fuel injection approach dates to the 1980's in cars. The promise is better throttle response , not important in lawn tractors, but also easier starting and better economy.

Port fuel injection replaced the throttle body type. I read here that some upscale air cooled tractor engines have the port type. With that comes the ability to diagnose performance issues via fault codes retrieved without much hassle. What an owner does to clear the faults is not always so easy, but should be easier than the struggles with the carburetted engines.

What are the issues mentioned above with the FJ engines?? I do not know if owners can extract fault codes from the Walbro units, but I could not get any information on the engine earlier. There will be a few sensors on the Walbro to make it work, but the pricing suggests this approach is meant to be user friendly. I am guessing Walbro was very careful before offering this technology. Comments please.

The problem is no one knows how to work on them. You can not hook a computer to them to diagnose them. Sensors are basic and can not give enough info to figure out the problem. And once again no one knows how to work on them.
OTOH when the work they are fantastic. Easy starting all the time. Purr like a tiger and just work.
To me they are too much money for the possible problems. They will get better but that day is not here yet.

motoman said:

I would buy the fuel injection engine because I think it is the Walbro "throttle body" fuel injection. In the Cub Cadet forum I had asked for feedback a while back and believe a new owner has responded favorably. Since I am not a pro and no access to consumer problems I cannot speak first hand. But that particular fuel injection approach dates to the 1980's in cars. The promise is better throttle response , not important in lawn tractors, but also easier starting and better economy.

Port fuel injection replaced the throttle body type. I read here that some upscale air cooled tractor engines have the port type. With that comes the ability to diagnose performance issues via fault codes retrieved without much hassle. What an owner does to clear the faults is not always so easy, but should be easier than the struggles with the carburetted engines.

What are the issues mentioned above with the FJ engines?? I do not know if owners can extract fault codes from the Walbro units, but I could not get any information on the engine earlier. There will be a few sensors on the Walbro to make it work, but the pricing suggests this approach is meant to be user friendly. I am guessing Walbro was very careful before offering this technology. Comments please.

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THIS article may shed some light on the subject ...

http://www.walbro.com/walbro-eem-around-ideal-fuel-injection-solution/

http://www.walbro.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Walbro_EEM_Injection_Mower_PS_EN.pdf

Hmmm, Sooner or later Cub Cadet's chosen "repair facility" must repair, no? Surely they did not offer the 3 models at big box prices without provision to fix 'em??? Or did they? If I know Boobala he will feret out any existing information on this. In a current thread on BATTERY CHARGERS someone noted some models give out fault codes so this is not rocket science. There is a Portland OR dealer. Maybe I should call him?


On "ancient" port fuel injection car engines (1985) grounding a pin on an easily accessed connector would start "blink code" out puts which are perfectly adequate for the patient troubleshooter. Those blink codes were the "check engine light" going on and off, and you counting the blinks, no computer needed. Unlike the later FJ cars the fault code list was small. Gotta be a way.

Edit @ 1:25PM Called Walbro engineer Michigan. Fairly tight lipped , but he said in 2 successive years at CC convention very few reports of failures. He said the CC factory takes the unit built with a microprocessor(ecu) and develops the harnessing etc. Walbro sells this to Kawasaki for undisclosed use.

Then called major local dealer who said there is no diy he knows of, and that he has only had one failure due to bad gas plugging the fuel pump. He hinted a software package is available to dealers for $500. If this were a car fanatic forum someone would steal that program somehow. ha ha The system also uses an oxy sensor, apparently. That is all I could squeeze out.

Just like what happened when CDI ignitions were introduced to motorcycles.
The std diagnosis method was "replace with a known good unit" and that is just what they did till they found the faulty component.
This system is still being used by a lot of motorcycle workshops.
And just like cars the days of home owner repairs will go.
It is called technology & regulations.

Several mowers already run EEM via a chip in the hour meter , EEM on a mower is fairly easy and most display an error message on the hour meter screen.
The technology behind that has been used in lathes & mills for decades to maintain constant speeds.
Kohler has published service details of their previous EFI system so it will not be long before all of that trickles down to all workshops.
Basically it is just "fear of the new" .
You can buy car diagnostic tools for thousands , or hook up a led or analog meter to the computer outlet and count the pulses.
Dealer networks will eventually all buy the fancy dancy diagnostic gear, but not till there is sufficient demand to justify the cost.

Kawasaki do service schools and even down here the EFI updates are run 4 times a year.

It is not like this is brand new cutting edge technology.
It is very old technology being applied to a new use.

SOME CUB CADET READING

figured I'd try to see how much info. on these Cub's with EFI is out there, finding a bit here N there so I'll post what I've found thus far, it does seem there are several outfits fooling with EFI models and it appears ( at least to me, from what I've read) they ARE leery of the issues this new system will bring forth, anyway here's some reading material,

http://www.cubcadet.com/equipment/c...ageView=promos/electronic_fuel_injection.html

http://todaysmower.com/2015-cub-cadet-xt1-xt2-lawn-garden-tractor-review/

http://www.cubcadet.com/equipment/c...ubcadet_General/ProductRecallLandingPage.html

https://support.cubcadet.com/s/article/437-1

https://support.cubcadet.com/s/article/1722-1

I read somewhere along the line "TROY-BILT" was introducing EFI in 2016 on a certain model, but I have to explore that info.

Couple thoughts...Forgot to mention the contact hinted that MTD may be looking hard at the throttle body. Why? Maybe they want an easier way back in California's good graces with clean emissions with the EFJ's oxy sensor and so called "closed loop" operation (the sensors keep the fuel mix within an acceptable "clean" range of oxygen and pollutants).

Instead of sheep jumping to put me to sleep I keep digging into past experience, limited as it is. I owned a Ford in the 70s with throttle body FJ. I recall it was a 4 cyl truck engine revived in a compact. But it had all the sensors. The repair manual had a pre OBD II connector under the dash which allowed the Ford garage to hook up and check the sensors by their centralized system. But....also extensive alternate information on the individual sensors available in the manual. By then most home hobbyists had been scared off from auto diagnosis. The rabid few , after retrieving the fault code from the blinking CEL output (count the blinks), could at least narrow the search to a sensor such as throttle position sensor (TPS), temp sensor, and exhaust gas recirculate EGR, for instance

. Then one could remove them from the engine and test them as components with a DVM (handheld volt -ohm-resistance) for "expected" values....does the TPS put out the proper voltage when you crank the little lever,? etc. I was able to fix several problems this way. My time...hours. A Ford garage probably minutes because they could actuate the individual sensors from their handheld. The current OBDII is easy to use. So what, learn baby, learn.

These Cub Cadets should have these screw- in sensors. Someone buy one and we can take it apart.:thumbsup:

Edit: To chew on. Came across an interesting Brit site where the person has a EFJ bike and his girlfriend a carburetted one, both Hondas.
The message is that he expected the carburetor to be the easier of the two to work on, but concluded the EFJ was just as easy, if not more so. Go figure. We have a better mousetrap here, IMO. A rider with locker and this EFJ...sign me up.

Thank you everyone. I agree with most of you that the EFI just hasn't been around long enough to know the longevity of them. My other reason for sticking with the Kohler 24hp, is the Cub Cadet EFI 679cc is essentially a 18hp equivalent? I'm using the mower to do light hauling, mowing, and snow plowing, so I would think more power can't be a bad thing? It's too bad the 2018 models don't offer a Kohler with a fabricated deck like the 2017 versions do. Basically I'm sacrificing the fabricated deck and EFI for the 24 HP Kohler. Thank you guys for reaffirming my thoughts. I just couldn't find much in terms of reviews of pro-longed use on the EFI engines.

I too have been curious as to whether or not the EFI engines (single and twin) in the new XT Enduro Series will last as long as their carbureted counterparts. The problem may not be the OEM branded engine, but it's hard to ignore that companies like Kohler and Kawasaki who also offer EFI engines have DECADES of experience in engineering and building engines and are just better equipped to manufacture a robust, reliable engine. As for your original question regarding the K46, it is certainly not the cheapest, weakest transaxle offered in a riding mower, but it is not rated for any ground engaging equipment and will likely fail before any engine if you are going to ask it to do too much. Cub Cadet will sell a blade to anyone wanting to put it on their mower, but with limited torque from the K46 you will find that you will not be able to plow anything deeper than 6-8". I don't know what kind of snow you get, but we just had an 11" snowfall here is SE Michigan 3 weeks ago. Also, the transaxle is non-serviceable, like most of those found in sub $4,000 riders so any damage or potential damage done cannot be prevented/minimized with maintenance on the axle (albeit, some still service the K46 if they are daring). Its not to say that the mowers you are looking at are bad, but within a budget, you have the XT1/XT2 as well as all other made by MTD, the Deere E100 series and the Poulan/Husqvarna mowers to choose from. Good luck with your purchase.

Mike

Thank you Mike. It's comforting to know my research has yielded similar results especially regarding the transmission. I just placed my reservation for the XT2 LX46. Has the electronic pto, 24hp kohler. Was going to pay half down but at 0% for 24 months, screw it! lol Figure save the $300 difference between the EFI version and ordered the hauler as well. Snow wise, I'm here in the northwest in eastern washington. Most of the time its dry light snow. It can be heavy with moisture at times (cascade concrete) in which case I would just use the standalone snow blower. And then sometimes, you just gotta call the neighbor with the excavator :laughing:

Oh by the way. One huge differentiator for me from JD. Cub has a 3-year unlimited hours (includes powertrain) & 5-year chassis & front axle unlimited hours/limited lifetime fabricated deck shell. VS JD 2 year/120 hour bumper-to-bumper* (*Term limited to years or hours used, whichever comes first, and varies by model. Take it as you will. They're both competitive.

Please note my population of riders=2, so I have not experienced what many have, but....with the 2004 DYT4000 stamped deck still with no rust perforation, or spindle failure ( I do baby it) I do not see the value in the fab deck for my use. It does add weight and looks gnarly, but overkill for me. As far as feelings of "unproven" EFI. Catch it while you can- it has moved from "throttle body" (1980 and before) through "intake port injectors" (now antiquated) to "direct fuel injection." Each step improved power , economy, starting , torque, throttle response. It would seem to me as a subassembly the injection offered on the Cub is likely more reliable than the Chinese or any air cooled rider "engine".

Edit, OK I have to relate a childhood experience. The Mercedes "gullwing" (doors open over the car) appeared briefly in about 1954 on a street near me. At the time the flathead Ford had ruled, but the Chev small block and Chrysler 300 were on their way. So here is a straight six the size of a Chevy six making 265 HP with fuel injection. No one could believe it.

cruzenmike said:

I too have been curious as to whether or not the EFI engines (single and twin) in the new XT Enduro Series will last as long as their carbureted counterparts. The problem may not be the OEM branded engine, but it's hard to ignore that companies like Kohler and Kawasaki who also offer EFI engines have DECADES of experience in engineering and building engines and are just better equipped to manufacture a robust, reliable engine. As for your original question regarding the K46, it is certainly not the cheapest, weakest transaxle offered in a riding mower, but it is not rated for any ground engaging equipment and will likely fail before any engine if you are going to ask it to do too much. Cub Cadet will sell a blade to anyone wanting to put it on their mower, but with limited torque from the K46 you will find that you will not be able to plow anything deeper than 6-8". I don't know what kind of snow you get, but we just had an 11" snowfall here is SE Michigan 3 weeks ago. Also, the transaxle is non-serviceable, like most of those found in sub $4,000 riders so any damage or potential damage done cannot be prevented/minimized with maintenance on the axle (albeit, some still service the K46 if they are daring). Its not to say that the mowers you are looking at are bad, but within a budget, you have the XT1/XT2 as well as all other made by MTD, the Deere E100 series and the Poulan/Husqvarna mowers to choose from. Good luck with your purchase.

Mike

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When MTD started using the EFI on their engines a couple years ago. Kohler was the company that did the in house training for MTD at their factory in Ohio.

ILENGINE said:

When MTD started using the EFI on their engines a couple years ago. Kohler was the company that did the in house training for MTD at their factory in Ohio.

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When considering where to get one repaired and whether or not anyone knows anything about the engines, your statement matters. When it comes to whether or not the Cub Cadet branded EFI engines actually live long enough to tell of their quality or reliability, it does not! I am certainly not knocking anyone purchasing or considering an MTD EFI, but I was just putting it out there that one should consider that the Kohler and Kawsaki EFIs out there will likely outlive and outperform the MTD EFI due to those manufacturers being directly involved in the R&D and manufacture of the engines they put their name on. I really do hope that the MTD EFI does well in the market. Exmark/Toro have seen decent success with their branded engines the past few years; they proved the engine out for 3 years in the lab before releasing it in a consumer product. I am not sure if this is what MTD did but I would think they did some Quality Assurance before they made the decision to put it into a handful of their models.

A lot of unknowns to date on the new Cub FI system, but it is interesting to consider how Cub can sell at price point $1800 (advertised)with the Walbro FI system. Just my guess on the unique system items and "costs" (swag estimate cheapest possible ?) likely to be used (my list): throttle body $75, oil temp (engine) sensor $20, MAP intake pressure $35, fuel pump $50, ECU $100, TPS (throttle position) sensor $35 , fuel pressure regulator $35, crank position sensor $35, oxy sensor $25. Total $425. Yep, just guesses and based on Chinese labor and material. These are ?half or less of comparable retail auto prices. Cub then must apply their retail pricing to reach the Home Depot showroom price.

No idea here of carb fuel system parts (carb etc) retail costs for comparison as I have not replaced them so forum members please give estimates .

The $1800 seems awfully low depending upon "carb" pricing. So have we got a "loss leader" here...better mousetrap sells at loss to gain market share? But too cheap and unreliable defeats itself. Your comments ?

BTW re difficulty to trouble shoot the FI, I found that India is making a basic single , air cooled motorcycle , Royal Enfield , with a throttle body FI and the old "MIL" blink fault detection system as of 2005. So Cub could provide this, and some owners would be able to MAINTAIN, baby, MAINTAIN.

So I pick up an Xt1 42 EFI on March 10th. I had a John Deere D120 bought new in 2013 that blew up in 2016 because the engine was just pure garbage and the John Deere dealer I bought it from was actually stumped as to how I could be so stupid to buy that thing from them in the first place...

The only reservation I have about the new 547cc efi engine is: is the engine itself any good? The efi doesn't worry me. If the efi goes bad just plug and play a few parts and your back in business. (I'm assuming the parts are available and reasonably priced, i.e. not sold by John Deere) I guess I'll find out.

And something I am suspicious about is the actual horsepower of the efi engine. Cub doesn't list it. I saw a video on YT where the guy runs his at 1/2 throttle and says he has plenty of power. It's probably over 20HP, wouldn't be unreasonable for EFI if the carb 547cc is listed as 18hp.

I'll post my impressions when I get it.

Yes let us know! Thanks for being our guinea pig! I came across the same conversion of approx 18hp on the EFI engines. I stuck with Kohler as I wanted more power (24hp) for the type of work I would be putting the mower through. I get my XT2 46 this week!

Hi, I just joined after finding this thread on Google. I have an XT1 42 with EFI on the way and I'm not worried a bit about the EFI. EFI on the Cub isn't new tech - it's just a new application of something that's been around for over half my life of 61 years. Every vehicle I've ever owned with EFI, whether port or throttle body, has been basically trouble free. (Two throttle position sensors replaced cheap and easy in 25 years.) Every EFI vehicle I've owned including my Harley Sportster fires immediately and runs like a dream no matter whether engine or weather is cold or hot. I just started my Sportster the other day for the first time in months and it fired on the first compression stroke. All my earlier bikes were carbureted and NONE of them would have started after sitting that long without a lot of fussing and farting around.

I've got less than an acre to mow and I really don't need 24 or 26 hp. I've been using a 10 hp 1972 Wheel Horse hydrostatic for a long time and it's just got so many things it needs fixed anymore I decided it was time to replace it. I have an 89 year old mom who can't drive and needs to go to lots of doctor appts and shopping, I have a wife who also does not drive and needs to get to / from work, doctor, shopping etc. and believe it or not I have a six year old son with all he entails. My days are full up as it is being a dad and a chauffeur not to mention that I still work a full time job. I just need something that WORKS to cut my lawn and isn't going to require tinkering or extra maintenance.

(If I had the time and money I think lawn tractors would be a very cool hobby though - some of those 60's and 70's Sears tractors are awesome looking. I hate to let go my three Wheel Horses - maybe I'll keep the 7hp for old time sake.)

As soon as cars started using EFI, even the early throttle body type like Cub uses, they ran tons better and got better mileage with lower emissions. That's the claim Cub is making on their EFI models - less need to change the oil, 25% better fuel efficiency, more power for the size of the engine. And while I'm hardly a tree hugger, if I'm using 25% less gas and getting more power in the bargain, I expect that the exhaust emissions of the EFI motor are also improved and that isn't a bad thing. I gather that a 547 cc engine is estimated at 17 hp carbureted, so likely a little more with EFI. That is way more than I've been using for a long time. I'm not gonna be snow plowing or the like.

Really it was a tough choice for me - an XT2 with its heavier duty parts or an XT1 with a bigger V-engine or the XT1 with EFI, all within a couple hundred dollars or so of each other... but the EFI tipped the scales to what I decided on. If I had any apprehensions about buying this model they'd be related to the 547 being a whole new engine - and made in China, though I bet a lot are already anyhow. Fortunately there's a good warranty and I'm good about changing oil and such. So far I haven't come across any horror stories about this new engine but I would be surprised if there aren't a couple.

Fingers crossed and I hope no matter what model anyone decides on, that it works great for them. Or for me.

Many people would advise you to first consider the ergonomics of the scenario to improve your comfort and reduce the possibility of long-term pain or damage.

Zt1 54 "owner here. There are many things that could be improved, but generally I'm delighted with my machine from https://eurekaergonomic.com/gaming-desk/. Compared to the Husqvarna version, felt much nicer (handles grippier, significantly more forwards and backwards with the handles, easier to control, and much sturdier frame). In comparison to other zero turns, it is much noisier and occasionally bouncy. I really like it all around. If you can find one used for a reasonable price (it costs $3600 brand-new with the 54 "If it has been maintained since I purchased mine, I'd consider buying it.