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Cub Cadet 1517 won't start

#1

M

MattJ812

Hello,

I was hoping you guys could help me. A while back a rocker arm came loose and while determining what the problem was I also noticed that the fuse was 30 amps instead of 20 amps and was melted into the holder. I have repaired the rocker arm and replaced the fuse holder and 20 amp fuse. When I turn the switch however I hear a click, which appears to be coming from the carburetor area, and nothing else happens. I jumped the terminals on the solenoid and the mower fired right up s o I determined that the starter was OK. I replaced the solenoid but I still have the same problem.

I have a multi-meter but I am not sure what to check next.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thank you


#2

B

bertsmobile1

The click near the carby is the fuel cut off solenoid.
You are not getting any power from the engine cranking circuit

Check for voltage ( + 12V ) at the starter solenoid trigger wire with the key in start position
Same with ground trigger wire ( 4 wire solenoid ) or body of solenoid ( 3 wire solenoid)
( I like to test V from the battery hot terminal to ground terminal rather than ohms as they give funny readings )

Remove the trigger ( thin ) wire / wires from the solenoid.
Ground one & bridge from the hot terminal to the other.( 4 pole solenoid ) or
Just bridge from the hot terminal to the control terminal ( 3 pole solenoid)

Starter cranks = solenoid good.
Solenoid is not polarity sensitive, BUT THE WIRING IS so make sure you remove the thin control wires.
Note a thinner wire on the hot terminal is not a control wire. It is the main power feed to the mower.


From here on things become very mower dependant as starting circuits are getting changed all the time.
Basically the power goes in a loop from the hot side of the solenoid ( saves wire, no other reason ) through the fuse to the B terminal on the key
B to S in the start position
S terminal to PTO switch ( or safety switch on manual PTO's)
Then to the brake switch and finally to the trigger on the solenoid, easy peasy after you grow the 3rd arm. Use a test lamp and follow the power.


#3

M

MattJ812

Solenoid.png

I checked the voltage from the positive battery terminal to the solenoid terminals and smaller wires as shown in the picture. I get 12 volts at the red points, nothing at blue. It is kinda hard to tell but the smaller red wire is going to the solenoid terminal in the back with no voltage. There are also 2 points at which I can connect the smaller orange and white wire. You can kinda see it in the picture, does it matter where I connect it? I do not notice a difference. The old solenoid only had one terminal there.

I will have to fight a lot of electrical tape to trace anything else so it will likely take me a while to figure out where the power is going. I hope what I have so far is normal?

If any other pictures might help, let me know.

Thanks


#4

B

bertsmobile1

Check the orange/ white wire with the switch in the start position, brake on pto off.
It should show + 12 V when the starter is turned on.
If not one or more of the safety switches , PTO switch or ignition switch itself is bad

Jumping from the hot wire on the top of the solenoid to the small wire should cause the engie to crank.
If not the solenoid is cactus or that thin green wire is not making a good enough ground.


#5

M

MattJ812

I replaced the ignition and pto switches. I get 12V from the orange/white wire. I am also able to start the mower by jumping from the hot solenoid wire to the green wire as you said. I am not able to start the mower without the brake pedal depressed and the seat safety engaged. The mower will cut off if the seat safety is re-engaged.

Am I right to assume that all the safety features are working correctly?

I have begun to remove some electrical tape so I can see the color of the wires. What should I check next?

If the click is coming from the fuel cut off, would that area be a good start?

Thanks


#6

cpurvis

cpurvis

If this problem occurred immediately after you replaced the fuse, I would check that fused wire to make sure it is passing current.


#7

B

bertsmobile1

MattJ812 said:
I replaced the ignition and pto switches. I get 12V from the orange/white wire. I am also able to start the mower by jumping from the hot solenoid wire to the green wire as you said. I am not able to start the mower without the brake pedal depressed and the seat safety engaged. The mower will cut off if the seat safety is re-engaged.

Am I right to assume that all the safety features are working correctly?

I have begun to remove some electrical tape so I can see the color of the wires. What should I check next?

If the click is coming from the fuel cut off, would that area be a good start?

Thanks
Click to expand...

You want to try that again ?
What you posted does not make sense.
If you are getting 12V on the orange/white wire with the ignition turned to start, the solenoid should trip and the engine crank.
IF not the solenoid is faulty or the green wire is not making a good ground.
If you are getting 12V to the orange / white wire then the cranking circuit is fine.
The easy test is to jump from the hot terminal to the terminal that the orange white wire is on and the starter should crank.
The hot wire should be the one with the thin red wire also attached, if not , move the thin re wire as it is the power supply to all the electrics.

The engine should start & run with the brake on regardless of the seat switch.
But if you take the brake off then the engine should stop unless you are in the seat if the seat switch is working


#8

M

MattJ812

I do not get voltage on the orange/white wire at any time.

I don't understand how jumping from the hot terminal to the connection for the orange/white wire. I tried anyway but I get nothing.

The solenoid is brand new, as are both ignition and pto switches.

I tested the seat switch again, the engine only cuts off when the brake is removed while not in the seat.


#9

B

bertsmobile1

The engine shoud cut out when you get off the seat without the brake being on.
That is the whole idea of it.
You fall off & the mower stops.

Now getting back to your wiring photo
The green wire is a ground wire so should never show + 12 V.
If it does then it is connected wrong somewhere which is why the fuse was melting.
The Orange & white wire is the trigger wire for the solenoid.
A solenoid is just a fancy name for a switch, which is turned on & off from another switch.
Like all things DC it needs a + & a - connection.
The - connection is through the body of the solenoid & the + comes down that orange & white wire when you turn the key to Start.
Once the solenoid get a + & - it closes and send juice down the other thick red wire to make the starter crank.
To stop idiots messing with the safety switches they change the colour of the wires at every switch.
Follow the thin red wire on the hot side of the solenoid.
It should go to a fuse then the the B ( battery ) terminal on the ignition switch
When you turn it to start, the B & S are connected so + 12 Volts then goes to the PTO switch
If the PTO switch is OFF power flows through it to the brake switch.
If the brake is on power flows through the brake switch into that orange/ white wire and the solenoid closes and send power to the starter motor.
Below is page 84 from the CUB Service Manual which you can download for free from the CUB Cadet web site
On it you will see that ALL GREEN WIRES ARE GROUND WIRES so there should never ever be + 12 V on a green wire.
I will hazard a guess that some one replaced the brake switch with a wrong one .There are 3 different brake switches, they all look the same they all plug in but only 1 will work and usually fitting a wrong one blows the magneto chip cause it sends 12 V down the magneto kill wire.

Cub wiring.jpgCub wiring.jpg


#10

M

MattJ812

bertsmobile1 said:
The engine shoud cut out when you get off the seat without the brake being on.
That is the whole idea of it.
You fall off & the mower stops.

Now getting back to your wiring photo
The green wire is a ground wire so should never show + 12 V.
If it does then it is connected wrong somewhere which is why the fuse was melting.
The Orange & white wire is the trigger wire for the solenoid.
A solenoid is just a fancy name for a switch, which is turned on & off from another switch.
Like all things DC it needs a + & a - connection.
The - connection is through the body of the solenoid & the + comes down that orange & white wire when you turn the key to Start.
Once the solenoid get a + & - it closes and send juice down the other thick red wire to make the starter crank.
To stop idiots messing with the safety switches they change the colour of the wires at every switch.
Follow the thin red wire on the hot side of the solenoid.
It should go to a fuse then the the B ( battery ) terminal on the ignition switch
When you turn it to start, the B & S are connected so + 12 Volts then goes to the PTO switch
If the PTO switch is OFF power flows through it to the brake switch.
If the brake is on power flows through the brake switch into that orange/ white wire and the solenoid closes and send power to the starter motor.
Below is page 84 from the CUB Service Manual which you can download for free from the CUB Cadet web site
On it you will see that ALL GREEN WIRES ARE GROUND WIRES so there should never ever be + 12 V on a green wire.
I will hazard a guess that some one replaced the brake switch with a wrong one .There are 3 different brake switches, they all look the same they all plug in but only 1 will work and usually fitting a wrong one blows the magneto chip cause it sends 12 V down the magneto kill wire.

View attachment 32614View attachment 32614
Click to expand...

Bear with me. When you say +12 volts to the green wire, do you mean from the positive or negative battery terminal? I get 12V from the positive on the green wire.

The red wire from the hot side of the solenoid goes to the fuse and to B on the ignition as you say.

I jumped from the green terminal on the ignition to the S position and bridged the orange and the orange and white wires that go to the dash and was able to get 12v from the negative battery terminal to the solenoid. Brake on or off, this probably did nothing for obvious reasons?

I happened to notice there is a relay? of some sort. Could this be causing a problem? I assume it is working to an extent because I can engage the PTO (it makes a noise) with the ignition on unless I remove the relay or whatever it is.

20170611_152505.png

Surely nothing has been replaced wrong (aside from the 30 amp fuse) because the mower has been running fine for 4 years now.

I feel like I am disarming a bomb, unsuccessfully.


#11

M

MattJ812

Hate to double post but I think I am doing this all wrong.

I did trace a path of resistance from the positive battery terminal to the solenoid using the wiring diagram; but, I can't get a voltage or current reading if the solenoid does not close the circuit though right?

Also, can you buy the connectors for the switches? One of the red wires has broken off. I can't find the connector blocks for sale.

Thanks again


#12

B

bertsmobile1

The solenoid is just a switch,
It connects the two heavy wires together
The one or two small wires at the bottom work the switch .
On a 4 pole solenoid it does not matter which way round they go
O a 3 wire solenoid the single wire must get 12V when the ignition switch is in the start position and the ground comes from the bolts holding it down so they must be clean.
To save wire the power for everything else is taken off the solenoid terminal that is connected to the battery.
This is the thin red wire connected to the same big terminal that the battery is connected to.
If you have accidentially put that red wire on the starter side nothing will happen.
If you want to start fresh, please go back to your original post and put a message on it that you have started a new post with a link to this one on it as it gets very confusing.


#13

M

MattJ812

The new solenoid was bad. I probably killed it by jumping across the terminals too much. Turns out that the old solenoid works fine; I don't know why it wouldn't start before, either the ignition or the PTO switch. I didn't change anything else.


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