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Corroded ring terminal, battery cable
#1
R
rigoletto
R
rigoletto
People,
MTD mower turned over a bunch of time, weakly, and never started. So I cleaned off the corrosion from the positive battery cable and noticed the terminal on that red cable has ben reduced by corrosion over 26 years to about 1/2 the surface it originally had. Does this make a big difference?
It is made of yellow bronze (brass??). Need I replace with same type? Or can I use aluminum? Have yous done this before? Do I just pry apart the clamped/crimped fasterers and recrimp?
Thanks, people.
MTD mower turned over a bunch of time, weakly, and never started. So I cleaned off the corrosion from the positive battery cable and noticed the terminal on that red cable has ben reduced by corrosion over 26 years to about 1/2 the surface it originally had. Does this make a big difference?
It is made of yellow bronze (brass??). Need I replace with same type? Or can I use aluminum? Have yous done this before? Do I just pry apart the clamped/crimped fasterers and recrimp?
Thanks, people.
#2
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
If it was me and had that much corrosion, I would be replacing the entire cable. More that likely the cable insides are also corroded. I never use aluminum connectors on cable that size, always use copper or brass. I also never use crimp connectors on battery cables. I use solder connectors. I also use 8 gauge cable.
#3
StarTech
StarTech
Always put on new terminals and haven;t tried reusing already been crimp terminals.
And with being a MTD the battery cable is probably 8 gauge copper clad aluminum which should be upgraded to 6 gauge all copper cable.
And with being a MTD the battery cable is probably 8 gauge copper clad aluminum which should be upgraded to 6 gauge all copper cable.
#5
R
rigoletto
R
rigoletto
Wow, good to know, people. Maybe thats why the mower wont start. Can anyone find such a cable on say, Amazon? Other? Thanks.
#6
Scrubcadet10
Scrubcadet10
Tractor Supply sells premade cables in different lengths, if you have one nearby
#7
StarTech
StarTech
Or any decent shop should have wire, cable lugs, and crimpers to make any length cable.
#8
S
SeniorCitizen
S
SeniorCitizen
Jumper cables , usually only on sale at public auctions . Can often buy those for 10c on the dollar . There's enuff Cu in those to make Batt cables the remainder of your mowing days .Wow, good to know, people. Maybe thats why the mower wont start. Can anyone find such a cable on say, Amazon? Other? Thanks.
#9
H
hlw49
H
hlw49
I have a special crimping tool to put the cable end on. It is made where you put the end in kinda of a cradle and you smack the crimper with a hammer. really tight crimp.
#10
F
Forest#2
F
Forest#2
Seniorcitizen says:
If a MTD will cut grass for 26 years it deserves new cables . lol
It deserves more. Might even be time for a oil chainge.
At the very least give it lots of TLC. Might even want to go ahead and arrange for funeral services.
If a MTD will cut grass for 26 years it deserves new cables . lol
It deserves more. Might even be time for a oil chainge.
At the very least give it lots of TLC. Might even want to go ahead and arrange for funeral services.
#11
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
I don’t like crimping battery cable connectors as it provides a path for calcium deposits to leach up through the braided wire. In wet climates this will shorten the life of the connection.
#12
StarTech
StarTech
With the crimpers I got I can crimp down so much on the cable lugs that the strand wire becomes solid. But normally I prefer to use No ox coating and crimp just to a good tight fit.
Also you should be using some heat shrink over the connection to make them moisture resistant.
Also you should be using some heat shrink over the connection to make them moisture resistant.
#13
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
This is the only type I use. Heat and fill the lug with solder, insert cable. After it has cooled give it a coat of liquid tape.
Attachments
#14
R
rigoletto
R
rigoletto
Thanks for all the many good tips, people. After the cable, I need to test out that useless solenoid that needs replacing every year. Sheesh.
#15
F
Forest#2
F
Forest#2
You asked about starter solenoids. If I were you I would buy two, keep a spare handy. I buy the two terminal type and they can be used on most all older model MTD's. Look at your IPL and get the correct part number then search on-line.
I've had a run of bad luck within last year replacing lawn tractor starter solenoids.
I've not found a good reliable generic type starter solenoids source yet.
On some of them the contacts stick and the starter keeps running and sometimes the OP is not aware of such until the engine is killed and the starter is running and then the bendix gear and or starter is ruined also.
I've had a run of bad luck within last year replacing lawn tractor starter solenoids.
I've not found a good reliable generic type starter solenoids source yet.
On some of them the contacts stick and the starter keeps running and sometimes the OP is not aware of such until the engine is killed and the starter is running and then the bendix gear and or starter is ruined also.
#16
StarTech
StarTech
Rotary sells good ones and they are usually rated for a higher amp rating than the OEM solenoids.
#17
F
Forest#2
F
Forest#2
Startech: Thanks for that info.
I'll try the Rotary.
Sadness ruining starters due to a new replacement solenoid.
Cannot hear the starter running when the engine is running when the solenoid contact stick. I've took couple of them apart and the new copper disc and it's stud contact would be stuck together with just light normal type pitting. (appeared to be China stuff.
Been having this issue quite often. Even went to the old reliable Ford type starter solenoids which are more costly but they do not ruin starters.
I'll try the Rotary.
Sadness ruining starters due to a new replacement solenoid.
Cannot hear the starter running when the engine is running when the solenoid contact stick. I've took couple of them apart and the new copper disc and it's stud contact would be stuck together with just light normal type pitting. (appeared to be China stuff.
Been having this issue quite often. Even went to the old reliable Ford type starter solenoids which are more costly but they do not ruin starters.
#18
R
rigoletto
R
rigoletto
Good tips, people. You mean like this one here:
Rotary 7935 MTD, Ward, Yard Man, Starter Solenoid; 725-1426, 925-1426, 725-0771 | eBay
Rotary Item #7935. Fits MTD Front & Rear Engine Rider Models 1990 - 1994. MTD: 725-1426,925-1426,9251426A.
www.ebay.com
#19
StarTech
StarTech
in this case I would use the Rotary 7934 as it is a heavier amp rated version.
#20
S
SeniorCitizen
If this incorrect someone please correct that .
S
SeniorCitizen
IIR that completes the circuit by the mounting bolts grounding . I believe some have ground wire .Good tips, people. You mean like this one here:
Rotary 7935 MTD, Ward, Yard Man, Starter Solenoid; 725-1426, 925-1426, 725-0771 | eBay
Rotary Item #7935. Fits MTD Front & Rear Engine Rider Models 1990 - 1994. MTD: 725-1426,925-1426,9251426A.www.ebay.com
If this incorrect someone please correct that .
#21
StarTech
StarTech
Yes there two basic type and several different mounting configs.
I have seen call three post and four post. These posts are also poles on schematics. It two large posts that the hi battery amperage to starter. Now the so-call has 12v trigger post with the frame of the solenoid providing the return ground. On the so-called four post the solenoid trigger coil is ungrounded (floating ground) and many mower use this as an additional part of the safety system.
I have seen call three post and four post. These posts are also poles on schematics. It two large posts that the hi battery amperage to starter. Now the so-call has 12v trigger post with the frame of the solenoid providing the return ground. On the so-called four post the solenoid trigger coil is ungrounded (floating ground) and many mower use this as an additional part of the safety system.
#22
R
rigoletto
R
rigoletto
Yup, grounded by bolts, Im pretty sure. Thanks.IIR that completes the circuit by the mounting bolts grounding . I believe some have ground wire .
If this incorrect someone please correct that .
#23
R
rigoletto
But in the photos it is misssing the spade connector. My mower has the solenoid with a spade connector.
R
rigoletto
in this case I would use the Rotary 7934 as it is a heavier amp rated version.
But in the photos it is misssing the spade connector. My mower has the solenoid with a spade connector.
#24
G
g-man57
G
g-man57
Along the lines of corroded terminal ends... Try putting those red/green felt washers on the battery posts of your motorized vehicles/equipment. I never gave them much thought until a friend told me to try them. I have never had to clean a terminal end or post since then. They're cheap and easy to install. What's to lose?
#25
M
mcspeed
M
mcspeed
Maybe I’m lucky but no corrosion on golf cart, generator, zero turn, jet ski, car and truck with dual batteries. I have run those felt washers in the past and I agree they seem to work.Along the lines of corroded terminal ends... Try putting those red/green felt washers on the battery posts of your motorized vehicles/equipment. I never gave them much thought until a friend told me to try them. I have never had to clean a terminal end or post since then. They're cheap and easy to install. What's to lose?
#26
S
SeniorCitizen
S
SeniorCitizen
Maybe those felts would prevent corrosion on the mower flat terminals too .Maybe I’m lucky but no corrosion on golf cart, generator, zero turn, jet ski, car and truck with dual batteries. I have run those felt washers in the past and I agree they seem to work.
#27
G
GerryB
G
GerryB
Don't know your age but if mower is 26 years old, replacing with original quality could be good for a lifetime. That said, 8ga copper, the more strands the better, with heavy copper terminals is the way to go. Like said earlier, solder the terminal if possible, there is no place then for corrosion to develop between cable and terminal. I also "tin" both sides of the terminal with solder which is less likely to corrode than copper.
#28
F
farmerdave1954
F
farmerdave1954
I used to work for a telephone company many years ago. We had a product called No-Oxide, a grease that shipped with the central office battery packages to be applied to battery terminals to prevent corrosion. I have had a couple small jars of that grease on hand since 1980 that I have used on every battery terminal I've ever installed or had occasion to reconnect. I have a Ford tractor that I overhauled in 1982 that has had that grease on it now for almost 42 years that looks as good as new. I also soldered tinned copper terminals to the battery terminals on that tractor at the time of overhaul, and they, as well as the wire, are a good as they day they were installed. I have never had a single failed, or even corroded connection on any terminal I have applied that grease to in all those years. I've probably changed the battery in that tractor 7 or 8 times now, each time reapplying the grease. There are many similar products on the market, but I don't know if the quality is as good as the original No-Oxide stuff. It might even still be available.
#29
P
PGB1
P
PGB1
Speaking as an industrial and distribution system electrician, what FarmerDave said about anti-ox paste is a reply to be remembered. The stuff I build, install & service is subject to all manner of corrosive evils from road salt spray to corrosive aerosols. Using anti-oxidant paste is a cable and fitting saver.
Use the kind with zinc in it, preferably with castor oil carrier. Burndy Penetrox is excellent. Ideal NoAlox is good & available at home centers and hardware stores. On my cars, truck & equipment, I smear a light coating of paste on the wire brush cleaned battery terminals &/or lugs. I also wire brush it into the cable strands before crimping the lugs on.
Don't use auto parts store Dielectric Grease. It actually increases resistance.
A good cable to use is Type SC, PPC or Type W or even welding cable. All are heavy duty and super flexible. The stranding is so fine that you can use a smaller cable gauge due to the skin effect. I use Type W for battery cables mostly because I use miles of it at work. It is a little harder to strip than the others due to the shielding, but has a much stronger jacket.
For crimp connectors done well, perhaps buy the materials, work the paste into the strands and ask a local electrical contractor who works industrial to crimp the lugs. They will have a hydraulic double crimp tool to use. Shrink tube over the lug barrel & onto the cable won't hurt.
Paul
Use the kind with zinc in it, preferably with castor oil carrier. Burndy Penetrox is excellent. Ideal NoAlox is good & available at home centers and hardware stores. On my cars, truck & equipment, I smear a light coating of paste on the wire brush cleaned battery terminals &/or lugs. I also wire brush it into the cable strands before crimping the lugs on.
Don't use auto parts store Dielectric Grease. It actually increases resistance.
A good cable to use is Type SC, PPC or Type W or even welding cable. All are heavy duty and super flexible. The stranding is so fine that you can use a smaller cable gauge due to the skin effect. I use Type W for battery cables mostly because I use miles of it at work. It is a little harder to strip than the others due to the shielding, but has a much stronger jacket.
For crimp connectors done well, perhaps buy the materials, work the paste into the strands and ask a local electrical contractor who works industrial to crimp the lugs. They will have a hydraulic double crimp tool to use. Shrink tube over the lug barrel & onto the cable won't hurt.
Paul
#30
C
Chipg1956
C
Chipg1956
Sure it should be replaced, but if it is spinning over it is not the solution to your starting problem.
#31
S
SeniorCitizen
S
SeniorCitizen
I understood that deterioration by corrosion was causing it to spin .
Would some of the various dielectric grease brands may work as well . II can recall i'll look for the ingredients on various brands .
Would some of the various dielectric grease brands may work as well . II can recall i'll look for the ingredients on various brands .
#32
A
AutoMechanic
A
AutoMechanic
I’d replace that terminal and use some dielectric grease or some terminal protectant on it. You could replace the whole cable too if you can source one. At least clean it off for now though.
#33
S
SeniorCitizen
S
SeniorCitizen
I've often wondered if younger guys know the oxidation needs removed from both components ?
No , a clean shop towel won't do it . The oxidation is hard and a common wire brush won't do it either .
I like the brush made to do that down to shining metal . I can't find it so i use my pocket knife to scrape clean to bare metal ,
No , a clean shop towel won't do it . The oxidation is hard and a common wire brush won't do it either .
I like the brush made to do that down to shining metal . I can't find it so i use my pocket knife to scrape clean to bare metal ,
#34
R
rdedrick
R
rdedrick
If its down to half its size due to corrosion that's a big difference. Using PI 3.14 half the diameter is far less than half. Cut he cable and re-crimp back to where the cable has no corrosion. Or replace it. It will make a difference. for minor oxidation use some "Deoxit" and a brush it comes in a spray can.People,
MTD mower turned over a bunch of time, weakly, and never started. So I cleaned off the corrosion from the positive battery cable and noticed the terminal on that red cable has ben reduced by corrosion over 26 years to about 1/2 the surface it originally had. Does this make a big difference?
It is made of yellow bronze (brass??). Need I replace with same type? Or can I use aluminum? Have yous done this before? Do I just pry apart the clamped/crimped fasterers and recrimp?
Thanks, people.
#35
P
PGB1
Webster's Dictionary: "Insulating. Unable to conduct electrical, energy".
Use instead the stuff mentioned on Page 3.
Paul
P
PGB1
Don't use Dielectric grease.I understood that deterioration by corrosion was causing it to spin .
Would some of the various dielectric grease brands may work as well . II can recall i'll look for the ingredients on various brands .
Webster's Dictionary: "Insulating. Unable to conduct electrical, energy".
Use instead the stuff mentioned on Page 3.
Paul
#36
StarTech
StarTech
The only time you would dielectric (non-conductive) grease would be to make a multiple terminal connectors water resistance. With terminals such as battery you want a conductive grease.
Even when using dielectric grease you can over pack the connector leading to lost contact of some terminals.
As said for battery terminal use conductive anti oxidation grease, tightly crimp the terminals, and use heat shrink to provide additional sealing of joint.
Even when using dielectric grease you can over pack the connector leading to lost contact of some terminals.
As said for battery terminal use conductive anti oxidation grease, tightly crimp the terminals, and use heat shrink to provide additional sealing of joint.
#37
R
rdedrick
R
rdedrick
I found a tool for cleaning terminals. It may be pricey at over $25 dollars for the average person's needs but if you work on multiple machines or any vehicle it's great. A piloted bonding brush. A couple seconds using it chucked in a drill you have clean metal. Both the terminal and also a ground mounting point. google the following.I've often wondered if younger guys know the oxidation needs removed from both components ?
No , a clean shop towel won't do it . The oxidation is hard and a common wire brush won't do it either .
I like the brush made to do that down to shining metal . I can't find it so i use my pocket knife to scrape clean to bare metal ,
06741 PILOTED BONDING BRUSH (1/8") |
#38
P
PGB1
Ideal's NoAlox also waterproofs, although I don't know what the carrier grease is. SDS is mute on the subject.
P
PGB1
The anti-ox pastes that are castor oil based waterproof very well. (Burndy Penetrox is one)The only time you would dielectric (non-conductive) grease would be to make a multiple terminal connectors water resistance. With terminals such as battery you want a conductive grease.
Even when using dielectric grease you can over pack the connector leading to lost contact of some terminals.
As said for battery terminal use conductive anti oxidation grease, tightly crimp the terminals, and use heat shrink to provide additional sealing of joint.
Ideal's NoAlox also waterproofs, although I don't know what the carrier grease is. SDS is mute on the subject.
#39
P
PGB1
Those wire brushes for cleaning oxidation off of copper tubing before sweating joints work well, too. You can get tapered ones for inside and circle ones for posts. Just don't go too crazy and brush off the plating on the lugs.
P
PGB1
The bonding brushes look like they'd be handy in electrical distribution work where stuff gets really corroded. Thanks for posting it, RedRick.I found a tool for cleaning terminals. It may be pricey at over $25 dollars for the average person's needs but if you work on multiple machines or any vehicle it's great. A piloted bonding brush. A couple seconds using it chucked in a drill you have clean metal. Both the terminal and also a ground mounting point. google the following.
06741 PILOTED BONDING BRUSH (1/8")
Those wire brushes for cleaning oxidation off of copper tubing before sweating joints work well, too. You can get tapered ones for inside and circle ones for posts. Just don't go too crazy and brush off the plating on the lugs.
#40
W
wingstrut
When I replace I always go larger and solder everything.
W
wingstrut
Rivets has it correct, the wiring on just about everything is minimum gauge so the companies can save a bunch of money.If it was me and had that much corrosion, I would be replacing the entire cable. More that likely the cable insides are also corroded. I never use aluminum connectors on cable that size, always use copper or brass. I also never use crimp connectors on battery cables. I use solder connectors. I also use 8 gauge cable.
When I replace I always go larger and solder everything.
#41
R
rigoletto
R
rigoletto
Wow, so many post here that offer good info! Thanks. But UPDATE: I installed a new solenoid as well (after replacing the cable with new copper!). And mower still does not even turn over. I got a 12V test light and got a light on the IN of the solenoid, an OUT of the solenoid (with switch ON), and even a light at the starter. If I get a test light on all these points, doesnt that mean I have a problem with the starter?
#42
R
rdedrick
R
rdedrick
Check your battery voltage at the starter while engaging the starter. the voltage should stay in the 10 volt range at the lowest. If not you need a battery. Or do some load testing on the "new" solenoid. My daughter's mower was down most of the summer because of a bad new solenoid. If it all checks out it might be the starter. Be aware with a volt meter or test light. You can have 12 volts on a terrible connection until you put a load on it.
#43
Hammermechanicman
When you turn the key to start do you get 12v from the solenoid trigger wire and ground?
If no troubleshoot the start safety circuit.
If yes does solenoid engage? (Hear it clicking)
If solenoid engaging do you 12v to ground on both large terminals of solenoid?
For probably close to a hundred years farmers have used plain old grease on battery terminal connections to stop corrosion.
Hammermechanicman
First clean both ends of the negative ground cable.Wow, so many post here that offer good info! Thanks. But UPDATE: I installed a new solenoid as well (after replacing the cable with new copper!). And mower still does not even turn over. I got a 12V test light and got a light on the IN of the solenoid, an OUT of the solenoid (with switch ON), and even a light at the starter. If I get a test light on all these points, doesnt that mean I have a problem with the starter?
When you turn the key to start do you get 12v from the solenoid trigger wire and ground?
If no troubleshoot the start safety circuit.
If yes does solenoid engage? (Hear it clicking)
If solenoid engaging do you 12v to ground on both large terminals of solenoid?
For probably close to a hundred years farmers have used plain old grease on battery terminal connections to stop corrosion.
#44
StarTech
StarTech
Just because the test light lights doesn't mean you are getting the full voltage at the starter. Most starters in the 12v range need at least 9v to even try to turn. The OP needs to be using a volt meter for testing.
#45
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
To the OP, use this procedure to pinpoint which component or wire is creating your problem.
Electrical problems can be very easy or very difficult, depending on four things.
1. How well you understand basic electricity.
2. What tools you have and know how to use.
3. How well you follow directions.
4. You don't overlook or assume anything and verify everything.
Remember we cannot see what you are doing. You are our eyes, ears and fingers in solving this problem. You must be as accurate as you can when you report back. The two basic tools we will ask you to use are a test light and a multi-meter. If you have an assistant when going through these tests it would be very helpful. These steps work the best when done in order, so please don't jump around. Now let's solve this problem.
First, check the fuse(s), check battery connections for corrosion (clean if necessary) and voltage - above 12.5 volts should be good. Check and make sure the chassis ground is clean and tight.
Second, check for power from the battery to one of the large terminals on the solenoid. One of the wires is connected directly to the battery and has power all the time so one of the large terminals should light a test light or show 12 volts on a meter at all times.
Third, check for power at the small terminal of the solenoid while depressing the clutch/brake pedal and holding the key in the start position (you may need an assistant to sit in the seat to override the safety switch). If your solenoid is a four wire solenoid, check both small wire terminals as one is ground and the other is power from the ignition switch. If your solenoid is a three wire solenoid, make sure the solenoid body is not corroded where it bolts to the chassis of the mower as this is your ground path back to the battery. If in doubt, remove the solenoid and clean the mounting area down to bare metal. If there is no power to the small terminal then your problem is most likely a safety switch, ignition switch or in the wiring.
Fourth, check for power on the other large terminal of the solenoid while holding the key in the start position (you may need an assistant to sit in the seat to override the safety switch).
Fifth, check for power at the starter while holding the key in the start position (assistant again).
Sixth, check your ground circuit back to the battery.
After you have gone through each of the above steps, let us know what happened when you did each step. At that point we will have great info to tell you how to proceed. Remember you are our eyes, ears, and fingers, so please be as accurate as possible.
Be as specific as possible with voltage readings as this will help diagnose your problem quicker. If you do not know how to perform the above checks, just ask and I will try to guide you through it. Youtube also has some videos and as you know a picture is worth a thousand words.
Electrical problems can be very easy or very difficult, depending on four things.
1. How well you understand basic electricity.
2. What tools you have and know how to use.
3. How well you follow directions.
4. You don't overlook or assume anything and verify everything.
Remember we cannot see what you are doing. You are our eyes, ears and fingers in solving this problem. You must be as accurate as you can when you report back. The two basic tools we will ask you to use are a test light and a multi-meter. If you have an assistant when going through these tests it would be very helpful. These steps work the best when done in order, so please don't jump around. Now let's solve this problem.
First, check the fuse(s), check battery connections for corrosion (clean if necessary) and voltage - above 12.5 volts should be good. Check and make sure the chassis ground is clean and tight.
Second, check for power from the battery to one of the large terminals on the solenoid. One of the wires is connected directly to the battery and has power all the time so one of the large terminals should light a test light or show 12 volts on a meter at all times.
Third, check for power at the small terminal of the solenoid while depressing the clutch/brake pedal and holding the key in the start position (you may need an assistant to sit in the seat to override the safety switch). If your solenoid is a four wire solenoid, check both small wire terminals as one is ground and the other is power from the ignition switch. If your solenoid is a three wire solenoid, make sure the solenoid body is not corroded where it bolts to the chassis of the mower as this is your ground path back to the battery. If in doubt, remove the solenoid and clean the mounting area down to bare metal. If there is no power to the small terminal then your problem is most likely a safety switch, ignition switch or in the wiring.
Fourth, check for power on the other large terminal of the solenoid while holding the key in the start position (you may need an assistant to sit in the seat to override the safety switch).
Fifth, check for power at the starter while holding the key in the start position (assistant again).
Sixth, check your ground circuit back to the battery.
After you have gone through each of the above steps, let us know what happened when you did each step. At that point we will have great info to tell you how to proceed. Remember you are our eyes, ears, and fingers, so please be as accurate as possible.
Be as specific as possible with voltage readings as this will help diagnose your problem quicker. If you do not know how to perform the above checks, just ask and I will try to guide you through it. Youtube also has some videos and as you know a picture is worth a thousand words.
#46
R
rigoletto
So, if a test light that lights for 12v light up it does not mean you are getting 12V? Why do they call it a 12V test light? If I get a helper to turn the engine over and I test for V with meter I need at least 9V? I didnt know. That seems too low, no? A starter will turn over with just 9V?
R
rigoletto
Just because the test light lights doesn't mean you are getting the full voltage at the starter. Most starters in the 12v range need at least 9v to even try to turn. The OP needs to be using a volt meter for testing.
So, if a test light that lights for 12v light up it does not mean you are getting 12V? Why do they call it a 12V test light? If I get a helper to turn the engine over and I test for V with meter I need at least 9V? I didnt know. That seems too low, no? A starter will turn over with just 9V?
#47
R
rigoletto
OK, wil do. Will need a helper for that. But if this helps- battery V with no load is 12.14.
R
rigoletto
Check your battery voltage at the starter while engaging the starter. the voltage should stay in the 10 volt range at the lowest. If not you need a battery. Or do some load testing on the "new" solenoid. My daughter's mower was down most of the summer because of a bad new solenoid. If it all checks out it might be the starter. Be aware with a volt meter or test light. You can have 12 volts on a terrible connection until you put a load on it.
OK, wil do. Will need a helper for that. But if this helps- battery V with no load is 12.14.
#48
R
rigoletto
R
rigoletto
Thanks, Rivets. If I have just 12.14V on battery I have a bad battery? If I need 12.4, I understand, I probably have a weak battery. For starters! Should I even bother with all the other testing?To the OP, use this procedure to pinpoint which component or wire is creating your problem.
Electrical problems can be very easy or very difficult, depending on four things.
1. How well you understand basic electricity.
2. What tools you have and know how to use.
3. How well you follow directions.
4. You don't overlook or assume anything and verify everything.
Remember we cannot see what you are doing. You are our eyes, ears and fingers in solving this problem. You must be as accurate as you can when you report back. The two basic tools we will ask you to use are a test light and a multi-meter. If you have an assistant when going through these tests it would be very helpful. These steps work the best when done in order, so please don't jump around. Now let's solve this problem.
First, check the fuse(s), check battery connections for corrosion (clean if necessary) and voltage - above 12.5 volts should be good. Check and make sure the chassis ground is clean and tight.
Second, check for power from the battery to one of the large terminals on the solenoid. One of the wires is connected directly to the battery and has power all the time so one of the large terminals should light a test light or show 12 volts on a meter at all times.
Third, check for power at the small terminal of the solenoid while depressing the clutch/brake pedal and holding the key in the start position (you may need an assistant to sit in the seat to override the safety switch). If your solenoid is a four wire solenoid, check both small wire terminals as one is ground and the other is power from the ignition switch. If your solenoid is a three wire solenoid, make sure the solenoid body is not corroded where it bolts to the chassis of the mower as this is your ground path back to the battery. If in doubt, remove the solenoid and clean the mounting area down to bare metal. If there is no power to the small terminal then your problem is most likely a safety switch, ignition switch or in the wiring.
Fourth, check for power on the other large terminal of the solenoid while holding the key in the start position (you may need an assistant to sit in the seat to override the safety switch).
Fifth, check for power at the starter while holding the key in the start position (assistant again).
Sixth, check your ground circuit back to the battery.
After you have gone through each of the above steps, let us know what happened when you did each step. At that point we will have great info to tell you how to proceed. Remember you are our eyes, ears, and fingers, so please be as accurate as possible.
Be as specific as possible with voltage readings as this will help diagnose your problem quicker. If you do not know how to perform the above checks, just ask and I will try to guide you through it. Youtube also has some videos and as you know a picture is worth a thousand words.
#49
R
rigoletto
R
rigoletto
Across the 2 terminals of the solenoid it reads around 3.5-4.0. Fluctuates. And on far side of solenoid (terminal on right side) to the spade connector with ignition on , 2.0V or so. At starter, key on, 4-5V or so. Something is messed up.
#50
StarTech
StarTech
Now is the time to do point to point voltage drop tests. You have a bad connection somewhere that creating a huge voltage drop.
#51
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
When doing electrical troubleshooting you never ASSUME anything. Doing so will only hurt your cause. Battery reading of 12.1 VDC doesn’t indicate a bad or weak battery, that’s an ASSUMPTION. When you take readings across “TERMINALS” tells us nothing. We have no clue which terminals. You need to tell us which step you are on and the results of each test. At that point we will have a better idea of what you are seeing. Remember we can de hundreds of miles away from you and help no clue what you are doing or seeing. You must help us before we can help you.
#52
R
rigoletto
R
rigoletto
I have sanded down any possible oxidation on the terminals. Also, new copper hot wire on battery. With a new solenoid, where could there be the V drop?Now is the time to do point to point voltage drop tests. You have a bad connection somewhere that creating a huge voltage drop.
#53
R
rigoletto
But, Rivets, on my post #49, I said the 2 terminals on the solenoid. Am I missing something? There are only 2 main terminals (that connect to the heavy main wires) on that, the other is the spade post, to the very thin wire.
R
rigoletto
When doing electrical troubleshooting you never ASSUME anything. Doing so will only hurt your cause. Battery reading of 12.1 VDC doesn’t indicate a bad or weak battery, that’s an ASSUMPTION. When you take readings across “TERMINALS” tells us nothing. We have no clue which terminals. You need to tell us which step you are on and the results of each test. At that point we will have a better idea of what you are seeing. Remember we can de hundreds of miles away from you and help no clue what you are doing or seeing. You must help us before we can help you.
But, Rivets, on my post #49, I said the 2 terminals on the solenoid. Am I missing something? There are only 2 main terminals (that connect to the heavy main wires) on that, the other is the spade post, to the very thin wire.
#54
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Rivets
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Rivets
Starter solenoids have either 3 or 4 terminals. I don’t guess when trying to help. If you expect me to know what you are talking about, then I’m getting out of this thread. Hard enough to help someone electrical troubleshooting from hundreds of miles away, when they understand this type of troubleshooting. Even harder when they think they know more than those trying to help, as you are assuming again and didn’t understand my last post. Good luck in solving your problem, as I’m ASSUMING you know more than me, so I’m going for a stiff drink.
#55
StarTech
Okay the small terminal should be reading around 12v with the ignition switch held in the start position. Across the two large terminals with the ignition held in start position should read near zero voltage drop. Now across the starter (main terminal to starter case) should read very near the battery voltage when things are right.
Now if you are reading 3.5-4.0 across the large terminals of solenoid with the ignition switch held in the start position it tells me that the internal contacts are heavy burned and that the solenoid needs replacing. But the 2.0v on the small terminal is worrying as it should be either zero or near 12V depending on the ignition switch position provided all the safety switches are working. Without full voltage on the small terminal the solenoid can not fully pull in the main contacts. A bad safety switch or wiring terminal can cause the voltage problem at the small terminal and that problem area would have a huge voltage drop across it.
Also really could stand with the model number from serial number so I could try to a wiring schematic of the mower. Most likely with it having a three post solenoid the safeties are the brake.clutch and the PTO switches. Just note the ignition switch is also part the safety system.
StarTech
Not really clear as to what position the ignition is in here.Across the 2 terminals of the solenoid it reads around 3.5-4.0. Fluctuates. And on far side of solenoid (terminal on right side) to the spade connector with ignition on , 2.0V or so. At starter, key on, 4-5V or so. Something is messed up.
Okay the small terminal should be reading around 12v with the ignition switch held in the start position. Across the two large terminals with the ignition held in start position should read near zero voltage drop. Now across the starter (main terminal to starter case) should read very near the battery voltage when things are right.
Now if you are reading 3.5-4.0 across the large terminals of solenoid with the ignition switch held in the start position it tells me that the internal contacts are heavy burned and that the solenoid needs replacing. But the 2.0v on the small terminal is worrying as it should be either zero or near 12V depending on the ignition switch position provided all the safety switches are working. Without full voltage on the small terminal the solenoid can not fully pull in the main contacts. A bad safety switch or wiring terminal can cause the voltage problem at the small terminal and that problem area would have a huge voltage drop across it.
Also really could stand with the model number from serial number so I could try to a wiring schematic of the mower. Most likely with it having a three post solenoid the safeties are the brake.clutch and the PTO switches. Just note the ignition switch is also part the safety system.
#56
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
Star, he says he’s reading DCV across the two large terminals of the solenoid. You can’t read voltage that way. You must read each terminal separately, terminal to ground.
#57
StarTech
This is what is called a voltage drop test. If voltage present then there is high resistance is present. Higher the resistance the higher the voltage. By doing voltage drop tests you will find where bad connections are present. You are doing same thing basically when you test between the battery negative post and the frame ground or when you test from one end a wire to the other end of the same wire. Multiple resistance in series have difference voltage drops depending the resistances present.
Say the starter is 1 ohm and the all connections to it presents as .01 ohm nearly all the voltage will dropped across the starter. But if say the solenoid contacts are presenting .5 ohms in the same circuit then it would register a third of the voltage and starter would only see 2/3 of the voltage. This is how you traced down bad connections. Now a starter normally pulling 80amps at 12v will have a resistance of .15 ohms so any resistance across contacts will greatly affect the delivered voltage and current. Many of the DDVMs out there can not read in the milli-ohms range so without voltage drop tests you will not find bad connections; unless, you just lucky enough to replace the bad component(s).
Resistance in series divides the voltages not the current. Resistance in parallel divide the current but not the voltage. This why two 1/2 watt resistors of the same valve in parallel is the same as an one watt resistor but half the resistance. It is a little more complicated then this depending on the values involved but this is the basics.
StarTech
Rivets, Yes you can. This is basic electricity and electronics. And starter is still providing a path to ground too.Star, he says he’s reading DCV across the two large terminals of the solenoid. You can’t read voltage that way. You must read each terminal separately, terminal to ground.
This is what is called a voltage drop test. If voltage present then there is high resistance is present. Higher the resistance the higher the voltage. By doing voltage drop tests you will find where bad connections are present. You are doing same thing basically when you test between the battery negative post and the frame ground or when you test from one end a wire to the other end of the same wire. Multiple resistance in series have difference voltage drops depending the resistances present.
Say the starter is 1 ohm and the all connections to it presents as .01 ohm nearly all the voltage will dropped across the starter. But if say the solenoid contacts are presenting .5 ohms in the same circuit then it would register a third of the voltage and starter would only see 2/3 of the voltage. This is how you traced down bad connections. Now a starter normally pulling 80amps at 12v will have a resistance of .15 ohms so any resistance across contacts will greatly affect the delivered voltage and current. Many of the DDVMs out there can not read in the milli-ohms range so without voltage drop tests you will not find bad connections; unless, you just lucky enough to replace the bad component(s).
Resistance in series divides the voltages not the current. Resistance in parallel divide the current but not the voltage. This why two 1/2 watt resistors of the same valve in parallel is the same as an one watt resistor but half the resistance. It is a little more complicated then this depending on the values involved but this is the basics.
#58
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
Guess I’ve taught it wrong for 50 years. I’ve always taught that to measure voltage drop through a component you measure one side of the component to ground and then the other side of the component to ground. The difference between the two readings is the voltage drop through that component. Lucky I’m no longer teaching. This will probably be my last post on this thread.
#59
R
rigoletto
R
rigoletto
It's raining today, so cant do any testing on the mower. But maybe Monday when the rain is over. I am a basic learner, struggling, with the help of any member offering here, much appreciated. But when it turns to uncalled for anger and resentment with accusations and criticism on top of that is very unfortunate, and not expected. 1st time I have experienced this on any DIY forum. I have always looked up to all the members here, still do.
#60
R
rigoletto
SN is 1C048C20044, , model 13A4667F118 MTD. Thanks, Star, for detailed follow up. It is starting to be clearer now. Will repeat tests and answer some of the questions you posted. Then go from there. It has cleared up now, trying to go out there again to do more tests............
PS: solenoid is new.
R
rigoletto
Not really clear as to what position the ignition is in here.
Okay the small terminal should be reading around 12v with the ignition switch held in the start position. Across the two large terminals with the ignition held in start position should read near zero voltage drop. Now across the starter (main terminal to starter case) should read very near the battery voltage when things are right.
Now if you are reading 3.5-4.0 across the large terminals of solenoid with the ignition switch held in the start position it tells me that the internal contacts are heavy burned and that the solenoid needs replacing. But the 2.0v on the small terminal is worrying as it should be either zero or near 12V depending on the ignition switch position provided all the safety switches are working. Without full voltage on the small terminal the solenoid can not fully pull in the main contacts. A bad safety switch or wiring terminal can cause the voltage problem at the small terminal and that problem area would have a huge voltage drop across it.
Also really could stand with the model number from serial number so I could try to a wiring schematic of the mower. Most likely with it having a three post solenoid the safeties are the brake.clutch and the PTO switches. Just note the ignition switch is also part the safety system.
SN is 1C048C20044, , model 13A4667F118 MTD. Thanks, Star, for detailed follow up. It is starting to be clearer now. Will repeat tests and answer some of the questions you posted. Then go from there. It has cleared up now, trying to go out there again to do more tests............
PS: solenoid is new.
#61
StarTech
Items #8 are Normally open/ Normally closed safety switches. The orange, Orange/black, and Orange/White wires is the starter circuit.
Item #2 is the ignition switch
StarTech
SN is 13A4667F118, model 667 MTD. Thanks, Star, for detailed follow up. It is starting to be clearer now. Will repeat tests and answer some of the questions you posted. Then go from there. It has cleared up now, trying to go out there again to do more tests............
PS: solenoid is new.
Items #8 are Normally open/ Normally closed safety switches. The orange, Orange/black, and Orange/White wires is the starter circuit.
Item #2 is the ignition switch
#62
R
rigoletto
R
rigoletto
OK, heres what I got for readings so far, to start: Battery V is 12.1 (between the 2 posts).
With key OFF: V between the 2 heavy terminals (not the SPADE connector that has the thin wire) 11.85V.
With key ON: zero V
Key OFF: between heavy left terminal and spade connector terminal zero V. Between left heavy terminal and spade connector- 11.87V.
Key ON: Between heavy left terminal and spade connector- 0.9V.
Key ON: between ground and starter bolt: 1V and violent/rapid clicking of solenoid(?).
So far this is what I have to report. It got very dark so I could not do any further testing. Can we determine anything from these results so far?
May be a curiosity, but why is a 12V DC test light lighting up at every place I touch, and yet at places I have gotten just no V or 1 V?
Thanks, people.
With key OFF: V between the 2 heavy terminals (not the SPADE connector that has the thin wire) 11.85V.
With key ON: zero V
Key OFF: between heavy left terminal and spade connector terminal zero V. Between left heavy terminal and spade connector- 11.87V.
Key ON: Between heavy left terminal and spade connector- 0.9V.
Key ON: between ground and starter bolt: 1V and violent/rapid clicking of solenoid(?).
So far this is what I have to report. It got very dark so I could not do any further testing. Can we determine anything from these results so far?
May be a curiosity, but why is a 12V DC test light lighting up at every place I touch, and yet at places I have gotten just no V or 1 V?
Thanks, people.
#63
P
pat_from_indy
P
pat_from_indy
Before I spent any money on a mower that old, I would definitely figure out why it is not starting first. Could be due to the battery and cable, but could be that the engine is near the end of its life.People,
MTD mower turned over a bunch of time, weakly, and never started. So I cleaned off the corrosion from the positive battery cable and noticed the terminal on that red cable has ben reduced by corrosion over 26 years to about 1/2 the surface it originally had. Does this make a big difference?
It is made of yellow bronze (brass??). Need I replace with same type? Or can I use aluminum? Have yous done this before? Do I just pry apart the clamped/crimped fasterers and recrimp?
Thanks, people.
#64
P
pat_from_indy
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pat_from_indy
A charged up 12V nominal battery will normally measure about 14VDC. If your battery is only measuring 12V while connected to nothing, it is in a low charge state or failed. The rapid clicking of the starter solenoid is a symptom of electrical issues. Could be cables, could be the battery, could be the battery is not getting charged sufficiently. Do you have a battery charger? If so, hook it up to the battery and see if you can get the battery fully charged as a starting point.OK, heres what I got for readings so far, to start: Battery V is 12.1 (between the 2 posts).
With key OFF: V between the 2 heavy terminals (not the SPADE connector that has the thin wire) 11.85V.
With key ON: zero V
Key OFF: between heavy left terminal and spade connector terminal zero V. Between left heavy terminal and spade connector- 11.87V.
Key ON: Between heavy left terminal and spade connector- 0.9V.
Key ON: between ground and starter bolt: 1V and violent/rapid clicking of solenoid(?).
So far this is what I have to report. It got very dark so I could not do any further testing. Can we determine anything from these results so far?
May be a curiosity, but why is a 12V DC test light lighting up at every place I touch, and yet at places I have gotten just no V or 1 V?
Thanks, people.