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Cheetah won’t crank
#1
R
Robertk
R
Robertk
I apologize in advance for this lengthy explanation, but please bear with me.
I know this is not that unusual of a problem judging by what I’ve read, and I know there have been many different solutions for a lot of people. But here’s what I’ve got going on, and what I’ve done so far:
I have a 2014 cheetah SCZ61V-921FX, S/N G3700189 with 167 hours. It will intermittently not crank at all. Doesn’t matter if the engine is hot or cold, or how long it’s been sitting. It might happen once in a day, once in a week, or several times. Then, without reason, it will start up fine. I’ve checked all switches (levers, brake, seat, pto), all are functioning. In fact, I pulled the green/white wire from the starter solenoid, and I have 12.85 volts there when key is in start position. Maybe battery amperage was low? I installed a new battery, and made sure it was fully charged. No luck. So I jumped the starter across the battery post on the solenoid to the male spade connection where I removed the green/white wire from, and had a helper turn the key to start, and it fired right up and worked fine. Starter seemed ok, but I replaced it anyway with a brand new OEM Kawasaki starter. Exact same starter. Same issue persisted. I ordered a new Electronic Control Module and starter relay and will try those next. I called Scag tech support, and they basically told me to do everything I had already done. Then suggested maybe the Kawasaki engine adapter harness was bad (which is where the green/white wire originates). But I am already getting correct voltage from that wire! Could something be preventing enough current (not voltage) from passing through that green/white wire and not allowing the starter to operate? I checked for good ground at the starter, and both 20amp fuses are good. Should I also replace the engine adapter harness? I’m baffled. Any help would be very much appreciated!
I know this is not that unusual of a problem judging by what I’ve read, and I know there have been many different solutions for a lot of people. But here’s what I’ve got going on, and what I’ve done so far:
I have a 2014 cheetah SCZ61V-921FX, S/N G3700189 with 167 hours. It will intermittently not crank at all. Doesn’t matter if the engine is hot or cold, or how long it’s been sitting. It might happen once in a day, once in a week, or several times. Then, without reason, it will start up fine. I’ve checked all switches (levers, brake, seat, pto), all are functioning. In fact, I pulled the green/white wire from the starter solenoid, and I have 12.85 volts there when key is in start position. Maybe battery amperage was low? I installed a new battery, and made sure it was fully charged. No luck. So I jumped the starter across the battery post on the solenoid to the male spade connection where I removed the green/white wire from, and had a helper turn the key to start, and it fired right up and worked fine. Starter seemed ok, but I replaced it anyway with a brand new OEM Kawasaki starter. Exact same starter. Same issue persisted. I ordered a new Electronic Control Module and starter relay and will try those next. I called Scag tech support, and they basically told me to do everything I had already done. Then suggested maybe the Kawasaki engine adapter harness was bad (which is where the green/white wire originates). But I am already getting correct voltage from that wire! Could something be preventing enough current (not voltage) from passing through that green/white wire and not allowing the starter to operate? I checked for good ground at the starter, and both 20amp fuses are good. Should I also replace the engine adapter harness? I’m baffled. Any help would be very much appreciated!
#2
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
The green white wire is what we call a signal or trigger wire.
It is not a current carrying wire which is why it is so thin.
If you have a remote solenoid make sure it has a good ground as it grounds out through the body, unless there is another small wire , which is the ground.
Next make sure the starter has a good ground.
I like running a jump start jumper from the battery - to a good ground spot near the starter like the lifting lug or the drain plug
It is not a current carrying wire which is why it is so thin.
If you have a remote solenoid make sure it has a good ground as it grounds out through the body, unless there is another small wire , which is the ground.
Next make sure the starter has a good ground.
I like running a jump start jumper from the battery - to a good ground spot near the starter like the lifting lug or the drain plug
#3
R
Robertk
The solenoid is not remote. It’s mounted to the starter. The starter is bolted directly to the engine, and the ground cable that comes straight from the battery - is bolted to the engine right next to the starter mounting bolts. Ground is good. In fact, I used the starter housing itself as a ground to check voltage on the trigger wire. After removing the trigger wire from the starter solenoid, I jumped from the + terminal on the solenoid (the cable on that terminal comes directly from the battery +) to the trigger wire terminal (after removing the trigger wire). Engine cranks this way. Doesn’t crank via the trigger wire, even though correct trigger voltage is present. Why would the correct voltage from one wire allow the starter to function, but not that same voltage from a different wire? Same voltage! The trouble was the same with the new starter as well. This leads me to believe that the starter and solenoid are good. Correct, or no? I assume if the solenoid/starter were bad nothing would happen when I jumped it?
Or am I assuming incorrectly? Is it possible that even the new starter was defective?
R
Robertk
The green white wire is what we call a signal or trigger wire.
It is not a current carrying wire which is why it is so thin.
If you have a remote solenoid make sure it has a good ground as it grounds out through the body, unless there is another small wire , which is the ground.
Next make sure the starter has a good ground.
I like running a jump start jumper from the battery - to a good ground spot near the starter like the lifting lug or the drain plug
The solenoid is not remote. It’s mounted to the starter. The starter is bolted directly to the engine, and the ground cable that comes straight from the battery - is bolted to the engine right next to the starter mounting bolts. Ground is good. In fact, I used the starter housing itself as a ground to check voltage on the trigger wire. After removing the trigger wire from the starter solenoid, I jumped from the + terminal on the solenoid (the cable on that terminal comes directly from the battery +) to the trigger wire terminal (after removing the trigger wire). Engine cranks this way. Doesn’t crank via the trigger wire, even though correct trigger voltage is present. Why would the correct voltage from one wire allow the starter to function, but not that same voltage from a different wire? Same voltage! The trouble was the same with the new starter as well. This leads me to believe that the starter and solenoid are good. Correct, or no? I assume if the solenoid/starter were bad nothing would happen when I jumped it?
Or am I assuming incorrectly? Is it possible that even the new starter was defective?
#4
mcdonell
mcdonell
I have a 2014 Cheetah with about 130 hours. I have had an intermittent "no crank" for the last 3.5 years. I have replaced many inexpensive parts hoping to fix the problem. Each time the problem seemed to go away but would ultimately return. Which convinced me I still had not found the problem.
I finally decided it must be $100 module. The module connector did not want to come apart. Finally I got the wiring to the module apart and found one wire connection messed up. It had to had happened in assembly at the factory. I took the wire out of the module connector and wired it separately around the connector. Thinking this may have been the problem, I did not install the new module and have been using the mower this summer without any issues. I am hoping it is fixed. My confidence is high.
A couple of notes:
Needing to be in the seat to try and crank the motor was a nuisance while troubleshooting. At first I made a jumper wire to bypass the seat switch. I finally decided it was easier to just slip a wood shim between the switch plunger and the raised seat.
The safety switches are each connectors of 12 volts going to the module. It is easier to test those safety switches for power at the module itself. A person on this forum posted this info which I saved for future reference.
What I did to deduce are the conditions with the Control Module is ensure 12 volts on wires going into the Control Module. No power means that OSHA safety switch is probably bad.:
• Control Handles Out, Brake On, Seat Switch Depressed, key in START position.
• The RED wire at the module provides BATTERY VOLTAGE to power-up the module - needs 12 volts
• The BLACK wire at the module provides GROUND to the module. Confirm good GROUND is present on BLACK wire at module connector.
• The ORANGE wire at the module is supplying BATTERY VOLTAGE from the LH & RH neutral (control lever) switches to the module- needs 12 volts
• The BROWN wire at the module is supplying BATTERY VOLTAGE from the seat switch to the module - needs 12 volts
• The PINK wire at the module is supplying BATTERY Voltage from the brake switch to the module - needs 12 volts
• The LT BLUE wire at the module is supplying BATTERY VOLTAGE from the PTO switch to the module - needs 12 volts
• The GREEN/BLACK wire at the module is supplying GROUND from the module to the start relay. Confirm good GROUND is present on GREEN/BLACK wire at the START RELAY.
• The GREEN wire at the start relay is supplying BATTERY VOLTAGE from the key switch to the start relay - needs 12 volts
When the above listed conditions are met, voltage will be supplied on the GREEN/WHITE wire from the start relay to the starter solenoid to engage starter.
Electric module 483599 and is $125
I finally decided it must be $100 module. The module connector did not want to come apart. Finally I got the wiring to the module apart and found one wire connection messed up. It had to had happened in assembly at the factory. I took the wire out of the module connector and wired it separately around the connector. Thinking this may have been the problem, I did not install the new module and have been using the mower this summer without any issues. I am hoping it is fixed. My confidence is high.
A couple of notes:
Needing to be in the seat to try and crank the motor was a nuisance while troubleshooting. At first I made a jumper wire to bypass the seat switch. I finally decided it was easier to just slip a wood shim between the switch plunger and the raised seat.
The safety switches are each connectors of 12 volts going to the module. It is easier to test those safety switches for power at the module itself. A person on this forum posted this info which I saved for future reference.
What I did to deduce are the conditions with the Control Module is ensure 12 volts on wires going into the Control Module. No power means that OSHA safety switch is probably bad.:
• Control Handles Out, Brake On, Seat Switch Depressed, key in START position.
• The RED wire at the module provides BATTERY VOLTAGE to power-up the module - needs 12 volts
• The BLACK wire at the module provides GROUND to the module. Confirm good GROUND is present on BLACK wire at module connector.
• The ORANGE wire at the module is supplying BATTERY VOLTAGE from the LH & RH neutral (control lever) switches to the module- needs 12 volts
• The BROWN wire at the module is supplying BATTERY VOLTAGE from the seat switch to the module - needs 12 volts
• The PINK wire at the module is supplying BATTERY Voltage from the brake switch to the module - needs 12 volts
• The LT BLUE wire at the module is supplying BATTERY VOLTAGE from the PTO switch to the module - needs 12 volts
• The GREEN/BLACK wire at the module is supplying GROUND from the module to the start relay. Confirm good GROUND is present on GREEN/BLACK wire at the START RELAY.
• The GREEN wire at the start relay is supplying BATTERY VOLTAGE from the key switch to the start relay - needs 12 volts
When the above listed conditions are met, voltage will be supplied on the GREEN/WHITE wire from the start relay to the starter solenoid to engage starter.
Electric module 483599 and is $125
#5
R
Robertk
R
Robertk
I’ve always had voltage on the green/white trigger wire at the starter solenoid. All safety interlock switches are working. Something else is going on. I installed a new battery, and I forgot to mention in my first post that I replaced the ignition key switch as well. I also installed a new starter. After the new starter still didn’t solve the problem, I pulled it off and put the original back in. Only a few items left to replace. Possibly ECM or starter relay. I will be replacing both as soon as they arrive in my mailbox, and many others with my same issue have solved their problem with one or the other. I hope these will work for me. I’m out of ideas after that.
#6
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
You have exceeded my knowledge so at this point I have to bow out.
My reasoning is exactly in line with yours.
If you have a starter mounted solenoid then it does have to be able to carry 0.5 to 2A depending upon weather it is Bendix starter or throw out solenoid.
You might like to back probe the green wire and then turn the starter on.
If the voltage drops below 10V then there is a bad contact in the solenoid circuit.
My reasoning is exactly in line with yours.
If you have a starter mounted solenoid then it does have to be able to carry 0.5 to 2A depending upon weather it is Bendix starter or throw out solenoid.
You might like to back probe the green wire and then turn the starter on.
If the voltage drops below 10V then there is a bad contact in the solenoid circuit.
#7
mcdonell
mcdonell
I guess this is above my knowledge as well. I have a Sears garden tractor that really wore me out with intermittent no start situations. I finally just ran the key switch start wire directly to the solenoid. Now it will start with blades engaged but it will crank.
I really don't want to do that with my Scag. Wife drives it too and we mow some steep areas. But now I hope mine is fixed.
I also hope you find the problem and will forward it back to me. These intermittent no start issues are very frustrating. That is why I never took mine back to the dealer for warranty. It was rarely intermittent and I just knew it would start for them.
I really don't want to do that with my Scag. Wife drives it too and we mow some steep areas. But now I hope mine is fixed.
I also hope you find the problem and will forward it back to me. These intermittent no start issues are very frustrating. That is why I never took mine back to the dealer for warranty. It was rarely intermittent and I just knew it would start for them.
#8
L
Luffydog
L
Luffydog
Make sure ground is good. The only time to really test the system is when it is in a no start position. Fuse holders get weak is a common is for them and also the pto switch as well. Also the relay under the key switch will give fits as well.
#9
R
Robertk
R
Robertk
I am awaiting delivery of a new ECM and starter relay. They were supposed to arrive today, but never showed up. I will try the relay first. If that does the trick, then the $105 ECM is going back. If not, I will try the ECM. I hope I don’t have to go any further than that. I’m running out of ideas? I’ll let everyone know what happens
#10
R
Robertk
R
Robertk
UPDATE!!! My issue was resolved by replacing the starter relay. That’s it. A $15.46 part. Okay, I also replaced the battery for 50 bucks and the starter switch for 20 bucks. Neither of those was the problem. Just the relay. And quite a few hours of troubleshooting, scratching my head and swearing. But it’s fixed. Thanks to all for your input. And I hope this helps the next guy that has an issue with similar symptoms. By the way, Jacks Small Engines.com is the website that had some of the best prices for parts that I found. Just sayin’
#11
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Thank you for the update to bring the thread to a closure and congrats for working it out.
#12
mcdonell
mcdonell
Yes, thanks for following up and telling us what you found. I have also found Jacks to be a good place to buy parts. Reasonable prices, they ship fast and have good reviews. Keep us posted if anything changes. I also like to read about Cheetahs since I have one.
#13
B
Boit4852
B
Boit4852
I hope others who have similar electrical issues will see this thread and educate themselves about not only starter relays, but any relays and how they work. Once a DIY'r understands how a relay works and how to size it and wire it in will gain valuable knowledge. This knowledge will help not only with designing an add on electrical device, but also how to select a relay and how to install it. Great thread for anyone wanting to educate themselves.:laughing:
#14
R
Roadmaster
R
Roadmaster
I'm having the same issues that you went through. Is the started relay that you changed out located on the Operator console?
#15
R
Roadmaster
R
Roadmaster
RobertK, wanted to thank you for your post and information on how you resolved the starting issue. I had the exact same problems, went through most of the same steps you did and still nothing. Except today I replaced the starter relay and that solved it. What was odd is that the old relay sounded like it worked (pulled in and put power to the Green/WHite wire), but nothing happened. Anyway thanks for sharing and helping get my mower back up and running.