Export thread

Briggs intek v twin starts hard

#1

Y

Yardstar

Hello everyone I have a briggs intek v twin model 445977 with 113hrs, my buddy let it sit a while because it was hard to start and he had a zero turn, by hard to start I mean he had to turn it over for an unreasonable amount of time. So skip to, I get the machine and remove the bowl from the carb, the jets are in the bowl so i got a new carb off ebay for $20, upon installing new carb i notice the intake manifold was deformed so i ordered an oem briggs manifold. I installed everything and it still will only start if i pour gas in the intake, i have a good spark, the backfire solenoid works when i pull it out and test it, the valves are set, and the fuel pump pumps good, the choke closes all the way also, and when it does start from the gas in the intake it runs great, any help is appreciated im completely stumped.


#2

B

bertsmobile1

Does it start AND RUN normally when you use fuel poured down the plug hole ?
If yes, then get a good carb from a known mower shop or proper parts supplier.
A lot of the really cheap stuff on Ebay / Amazon/ Craigs list is cheap because the vendor paid scrap metal price for them.
HE paid scrap metal price because they were defective


#3

Y

Yardstar

Yes it runs awesome until i turn the key to shut it off, I odered a new o ring set for the old carb and ill try that when it comes in.


#4

AVB

AVB

If the kit is from Briggs then the jet o-rings will not be in it.


#5

Y

Yardstar

It is not the kit from briggs it is off ebay


#6

S

SeniorCitizen

If the OEM needle valve is plastic pitch it in the trash and purchase a brass valve.


#7

Y

Yardstar

SeniorCitizen said:
If the OEM needle valve is plastic pitch it in the trash and purchase a brass valve.
Click to expand...
Would this contribute to my problem or more of an insurance down the road thing?


#8

S

SeniorCitizen

Yardstar said:
Would this contribute to my problem or more of an insurance down the road thing?
Click to expand...
The V-twin on my JD wouldn't start at all until the needle valve was replaced.


#9

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

Yep, the needle controls fuel flow into the carb bowl, which in turn feeds the engine


#10

Y

Yardstar

Ok ill see whats in the oem one and in the chinese one thats on it now, by chance dies anyone have a p/n? Thank you for the inout so at everyone


#11

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

Yardstar said:
Ok ill see whats in the oem one and in the chinese one thats on it now, by chance dies anyone have a p/n? Thank you for the inout so at everyone
Click to expand...
www.partstree.com

PartsTree - Home of OEM Parts for Outdoor Power Equipment

Parts lookup and repair parts diagrams for outdoor equipment like Toro mowers, Cub Cadet tractors, Husqvarna chainsaws, Echo trimmers, Briggs engines, etc.
www.partstree.com www.partstree.com


#12

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10 said:
www.partstree.com

PartsTree - Home of OEM Parts for Outdoor Power Equipment

Parts lookup and repair parts diagrams for outdoor equipment like Toro mowers, Cub Cadet tractors, Husqvarna chainsaws, Echo trimmers, Briggs engines, etc.
www.partstree.com www.partstree.com
Click to expand...
Needle number is 797410


#13

N

Neo7

I have the same engine. And I have done EVERYTHING!! but only more recently discovered that a change in starting procedure works well for me.
1.Battery in good order and well charged .... otherwise don't bother
2.Don't not apply choke (at first).
3.Crank engine over (with starter motor) for upto 10 seconds. In other words leave it cranking.
4.After 2 seconds of cranking apply full choke for half a second.On/Off
5.After 4 seconds of cranking apply full choke for half a second.On/Off.
6.After 6 seconds of cranking apply full choke for half a second.On/Off
7 After 8 seconds of cranking apply full choke for half a second.On/Off
Give up for now and let the starter motor rest for a few mins.... It's under rated (used on the 15HP single engines) and it's core (armature) gets very hot.
No guarantees... my engine has been starting quite reliably on step 5 ... Good luck ... Please write back either way.


#14

Y

Yardstar

Neo7 said:
I have the same engine. And I have done EVERYTHING!! but only more recently discovered that a change in starting procedure works well for me.
1.Battery in good order and well charged .... otherwise don't bother
2.Don't not apply choke (at first).
3.Crank engine over (with starter motor) for upto 10 seconds. In other words leave it cranking.
4.After 2 seconds of cranking apply full choke for half a second.On/Off
5.After 4 seconds of cranking apply full choke for half a second.On/Off.
6.After 6 seconds of cranking apply full choke for half a second.On/Off
7 After 8 seconds of cranking apply full choke for half a second.On/Off
Give up for now and let the starter motor rest for a few mins.... It's under rated (used on the 15HP single engines) and it's core (armature) gets very hot.
No guarantees... my engine has been starting quite reliably on step 5 ... Good luck ... Please write back either way.
Click to expand...
I will try this tomorrow, do you have the plastic needle or brass


#15

B

bertsmobile1

Neo,
Your idle passage is blocked somewhere


#16

N

Neo7

Regrettably not...The current (original) carb has been stripped down and cleaned out maybe 10 times (with every jet and venturi check and cleared each time) and the last time was with a full carb overhaul kit.
I have also fitted brand new carb which did nothing to solve this problem. Also since doing the overhaul kit the engine idle's like a dream!
So when i say "I've tried everything"... I mean "EVERYTHING" lol!


#17

AVB

AVB

It might be defective fuel solenoid. I recently had received three new Briggs solenoids from my distributor that would not retract; unless, received an external nudge once power was applied. Just with the engine running was enough cause this nudge. It might worth trying temporary replacing the solenoid with a screw(bolt) to see if this is the cause. Also make sure the connector terminals are tight I have also few cases where these were loose fitting to the pins of the solenoids.

I can't even get these solenoids made up either as I not a full Briggs dealer. I instructed to take them to a local to get them made which they refused to do too. Basically I paid for defective parts that in theory are under warranty but no dealer will make them up.


#18

N

Neo7

Check and Tested mine (many times) and its working fine.... I'm fairly sure I saw replacements on eBay? .... But need to make sure you're get the right one as the Solenoids on the Chinese Carbs are different (screw thread and plug) to the Nikki Cabs.


#19

T

Tinkerer200

I don't remember what the choke plate looks like on that engine but I have ones which had 2 holes in the choke plate. I blocked one of them which solved the excess cranking problem. Beware of running the starter too long, as it will cause over heating of winding reducing starting torque. I think B&S recommends no longer than 5 seconds followed by 10 seconds or so rest.

Walt Conner


#20

Y

Yardstar

Neo7 said:
Regrettably not...The current (original) carb has been stripped down and cleaned out maybe 10 times (with every jet and venturi check and cleared each time) and the last time was with a full carb overhaul kit.
I have also fitted brand new carb which did nothing to solve this problem. Also since doing the overhaul kit the engine idle's like a dream!
So when i say "I've tried everything"... I mean "EVERYTHING" lol!
Click to expand...
So you did try the brass needle?
AVB said:
It might be defective fuel solenoid. I recently had received three new Briggs solenoids from my distributor that would not retract; unless, received an external nudge once power was applied. Just with the engine running was enough cause this nudge. It might worth trying temporary replacing the solenoid with a screw(bolt) to see if this is the cause. Also make sure the connector terminals are tight I have also few cases where these were loose fitting to the pins of the solenoids.

I can't even get these solenoids made up either as I not a full Briggs dealer. I instructed to take them to a local to get them made which they refused to do too. Basically I paid for defective parts that in theory are under warranty but no dealer will make them up.
Click to expand...
I have tried two solenoids, both test positive out if the bowl but im willig to try anything so ill try the bolt
Tinkerer200 said:
I don't remember what the choke plate looks like on that engine but I have ones which had 2 holes in the choke plate. I blocked one of them which solved the excess cranking problem. Beware of running the starter too long, as it will cause over heating of winding reducing starting torque. I think B&S recommends no longer than 5 seconds followed by 10 seconds or so rest.

Walt Conner
Click to expand...
Thank you I will try this also, I appreciate all the responses, i cant wait to get in the shop and do some more process of elimination, iv never been stumped like this. Side note i have used about 10 of the chinese carbs on various 2 and 4 cycle equipment and had great sucess until now (if my problem is arb related)


#21

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

first time for everything
Tinkerer200 said:
I don't remember what the choke plate looks like on that engine but I have ones which had 2 holes in the choke plate. I blocked one of them which solved the excess cranking problem. Beware of running the starter too long, as it will cause over heating of winding reducing starting torque. I think B&S recommends no longer than 5 seconds followed by 10 seconds or so rest.

Walt Conner
Click to expand...
www.partstree.com

PartsTree - Home of OEM Parts for Outdoor Power Equipment

Parts lookup and repair parts diagrams for outdoor equipment like Toro mowers, Cub Cadet tractors, Husqvarna chainsaws, Echo trimmers, Briggs engines, etc.
www.partstree.com www.partstree.com


#22

Y

Yardstar

I remeber now I have a carb off a craftsman dyt4000 on my shelf i rebuilt just in case, its similar but has some differences like a different choke plate and the solenoid is mounted verticly instead of horizontaly, I will mount this different style carb as soon as i can and see what happens.


#23

N

Neo7

My Carb has the brass plug.
Tinkerer200 said:
I don't remember what the choke plate looks like on that engine but I have ones which had 2 holes in the choke plate. I blocked one of them which solved the excess cranking problem. Beware of running the starter too long, as it will cause over heating of winding reducing starting torque. I think B&S recommends no longer than 5 seconds followed by 10 seconds or so rest.
Click to expand...
As always in life, there's no such think as "EVERYTHING! lol" ... So I've not tried blocking a hole on the choke plate (if there is one?) .... Would love to know if this mod alone does the trick?... But not how you would do this without something being sucked into the engine later?

I burnt out my first (B&S original) starter motor.. but it did take 3 years! but Chinese replacements are quite cheap. I was initially concerned about quality so I did quite a bit of cranking testing. What I discovered was you can crank the engine 3 times over about 30 seconds (with 3 second stops) and the starter motor gets much hotter than cranking it just once over 30 seconds. When you think about it the starter motor has to push past the initial compression stroke (and the flywheel inertia) each time, which is why it gets hotter.
And once the core (armature) gets hot (which can be checked with an infrared gun on the top and bottom bearings) it does not have a lot of surface area (just two small roller bearings) to dissipate its heat. So regardless of what B&S say it will take a lot longer than 10 seconds to cool. I actually worked my new starter motor to the point where it was smoking (that's the enamelled wire windings on the armature cooking) and the armature took about 3 minuets to cool down to a touchable 50 degC (122 degF).

Good luck Yardstar ;-)


#24

Y

Yardstar

Neo7 said:
My Carb has the brass plug.

As always in life, there's no such think as "EVERYTHING! lol" ... So I've not tried blocking a hole on the choke plate (if there is one?) .... Would love to know if this mod alone does the trick?... But not how you would do this without something being sucked into the engine later?

I burnt out my first (B&S original) starter motor.. but it did take 3 years! but Chinese replacements are quite cheap. I was initially concerned about quality so I did quite a bit of cranking testing. What I discovered was you can crank the engine 3 times over about 30 seconds (with 3 second stops) and the starter motor gets much hotter than cranking it just once over 30 seconds. When you think about it the starter motor has to push past the initial compression stroke (and the flywheel inertia) each time, which is why it gets hotter.
And once the core (armature) gets hot (which can be checked with an infrared gun on the top and bottom bearings) it does not have a lot of surface area (just two small roller bearings) to dissipate its heat. So regardless of what B&S say it will take a lot longer than 10 seconds to cool. I actually worked my new starter motor to the point where it was smoking (that's the enamelled wire windings on the armature cooking) and the armature took about 3 minuets to cool down to a touchable 50 degC (122 degF).

Good luck Yardstar ;-)
Click to expand...
So the brass plug had no change? Man thats sad you figured out starter death rates before getting a solution, have you ever tested compression or did a leak down test on yours? Thats my next step after another carb i just cant get much shop time in on the weekend due to a barage of family activities.


#25

AVB

AVB

Yardstar said:
I remeber now I have a carb off a craftsman dyt4000 on my shelf i rebuilt just in case, its similar but has some differences like a different choke plate and the solenoid is mounted verticly instead of horizontaly, I will mount this different style carb as soon as i can and see what happens.
Click to expand...
That should be the steel fuel bowl instead of the cast aluminum version. Either way you need the correct main jets.


#26

Y

Yardstar

AVB said:
That should be the steel fuel bowl instead of the cast aluminum version. Either way you need the correct main jets.
Click to expand...
Are the main jets different?


#27

AVB

AVB

Yardstar said:
Are the main jets different?
Click to expand...
Should be as the DYT4000 that I have serviceuses a 310000 series engine and you said you were working a 445977-1092-B1 which 13 cu in bigger and has a twin barrel carburetor. Even if the carburetor is the same style different engine use different jets. Plus on a twin it does matter one goes where as many twins have two different jets. The 445977 has a 791501 (1.13mm) left jet and a 791502 (1.16 mm) right jet. Now the same looking carburetor off a 446777-0264-E1 would 1.11mm left jet and a 1.14mm right jet. Now the 44P777-0027-G1 uses yet another set of jets. On top of that some the newer 44 series uses a single barrel carburetor.


#28

B

bertsmobile1

It might be that the idle jet needs to be Natts knakker bigger .
This was a problem with the first batch of the plasic carbed 120000 series we got down here
Ther things that can cause these sorts f problems are very small leaks in the manifold & / or gaskets that are slightly obstructing air passages.


#29

N

Neo7

Yardstar said:
So the brass plug had no change?
Click to expand...
Brass plug is what I've always had ... except when I fitted the Chinese Carb (for a few days) which has a plastic/nylon plug. So either one was "no change"

Yardstar said:
Have you ever tested compression or did a leak down test on yours?
Click to expand...
Compression test yes, many times ... But I can't see how a leak down issue would help with a starting problem? ... That's really an optimal performance thing.
Getting the valve timing just right does allow the engine to turnover without stopping on compression strokes. So that's important too.

Also I know it's a carburettor issue. Because I have another V-Twin motor (in another mower) and I swapped the twin barrel carb for the other mowers single barrel carb and the engine started easily.... I was tempted to convert the engine over to a single barrel carb ... but that would have been admitting defeat lol! ... Besides I learn a lot when things go wrong and I wouldn't trade that for the world!


#30

Y

Yardstar

Thanks again everyone, I believe I will start with the carbplate hole covering, even tho i put my hand over the intake while choking it with no luck, then ill try this other carb, then by then i will have an aftermarket o ring kit for the oem carb i will try if that doesnt help.


#31

N

Neo7

Yardstar said:
I believe I will start with the carbplate hole covering
Click to expand...
Great ... But you mean "choke plate" right? .... please report back after that one ... and what you covered the hole it with too?
Good luck!


#32

Y

Yardstar

Ahh chokeplate yes, ok i will let you know how it goes.


#33

M

mechanic mark

Adjust valves with engine cold per your engine owners manual specs.


#34

Y

Yardstar

mechanic mark said:
Adjust valves per your owners manual.
Click to expand...
I did, at the low hours it has they werent off by much and it made no change :/


#35

Y

Yardstar

Neo7 said:
Brass plug is what I've always had ... except when I fitted the Chinese Carb (for a few days) which has a plastic/nylon plug. So either one was "no change"


Compression test yes, many times ... But I can't see how a leak down issue would help with a starting problem? ... That's really an optimal performance thing.
Getting the valve timing just right does allow the engine to turnover without stopping on compression strokes. So that's important too.

Also I know it's a carburettor issue. Because I have another V-Twin motor (in another mower) and I swapped the twin barrel carb for the other mowers single barrel carb and the engine started easily.... I was tempted to convert the engine over to a single barrel carb ... but that would have been admitting defeat lol! ... Besides I learn a lot when things go wrong and I wouldn't trade that for the world!
Click to expand...
So i tried the carb from the dyt4000 its a double nikki carb, no change, it didnt even want to start with gas down the carb, i might use one if the chinese carbs as a guinnie pig to make the idle jets bigget does anyone have a suggested size?


#36

Y

Yardstar

Neo7 said:
Great ... But you mean "choke plate" right? .... please report back after that one ... and what you covered the hole it with too?
Good luck!
Click to expand...
So i took the chinese carb and drilled one of the idle jets right out to 1/16" it starts right up now and runs great, now my only problem is if i can switch choke plates from the oem one the the chinese carb as the tractor has a singke throttle choke lever and the chinese carbs are designed for a seperate choke lever.


#37

Y

Yardstar

Update: i switched choke plates sucessfully and the tractor continues to start within a second or two, i greatly appreciate everyones help. Now i have to repair the kill switch on a partner k1200 but only the stop switch trigger is there the rest is missig and all the parts diagrams i look at dont detail those parts or how it functions.


#38

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

Glad you got it running good!


#39

N

Neo7

Great news!

Yardstar said:
So i took the chinese carb and drilled one of the idle jets right out to 1/16" it starts right up now and runs great
Click to expand...
Some say that those two jets are different sizes. Do you know which one you drilled out?


#40

Y

Yardstar

Neo7 said:
Great news!


Some say that those two jets are different sizes. Do you know which one you drilled out?
Click to expand...
Not the main jets in the emulsion tube I took all that off to expose the other jets, it ran rich so I put another new Chinese carb on it except I used the stock choke plate because it has a single lever for choke and throttle, It has a different arm on it and flips it the other way, it starts right up and doesn't run rich now I think the choke plate function was messing me up from the get go.


#41

N

Neo7

Yardstar said:
Not the main jets in the emulsion tube I took all that off to expose the other jets, it ran rich so I put another new Chinese carb on it except I used the stock choke plate because it has a single lever for choke and throttle, It has a different arm on it and flips it the other way, it starts right up and doesn't run rich now I think the choke plate function was messing me up from the get go.
Click to expand...
Ok thanks for clarify that. I'll consider doing the same but I'm a bit reluctant because I've never had that engine idling and running as sweet as it does at the moment ... so might "let sleeping dog lay" lol!

Thanks for all the information ... You've done really well in such a short space of time ;-)


#42

Y

Yardstar

Neo7 said:
Ok thanks for clarify that. I'll consider doing the same but I'm a bit reluctant because I've never had that engine idling and running as sweet as it does at the moment ... so might "let sleeping dog lay" lol!

Thanks for all the information ... You've done really well in such a short space of time ;-)
Click to expand...
Does your machine have a single choke/throttle? Have you checked your plastic intake manifold for leaks?


#43

AVB

AVB

Yardstar said:
Not the main jets in the emulsion tube I took all that off to expose the other jets, it ran rich so I put another new Chinese carb on it except I used the stock choke plate because it has a single lever for choke and throttle, It has a different arm on it and flips it the other way, it starts right up and doesn't run rich now I think the choke plate function was messing me up from the get go.
Click to expand...
Which it should have done considering that 1/16 is 1.5875 mm which is larger than either one of the main jets.


#44

N

Neo7

Yardstar said:
Does your machine have a single choke/throttle?
Have you checked your plastic intake manifold for leaks?
Click to expand...
No my carb has separate choke and throttle leavers and cables.
I threw away the plastic manifold (which was leaking somewhere!!) and bought an aluminium manifold, which is used on the professional series engines.... This took a bit of adaptation but worked well for me ;-)


#45

N

Neo7

AVB said:
Which it should have done considering that 1/16 is 1.5875 mm which is larger than either one of the main jets.
Click to expand...
Do you see any side effects from doing this?.... It kinda suggest there's a design flaw (like the plastic manifold) in B&S design specifications.


#46

M

mechanic mark

Adjust valves with engine cold per engine manual specs.


#47

N

Neo7

mechanic mark said:
Adjust valves with engine cold per engine manual specs.
Click to expand...
Absolutely.


Footer Links 1

Top