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Briggs engine was smoking bad....
#1
M
mark abby
M
mark abby
27hp Twin B&S #446777 2441
i read some posts in here about engines smoking on a hill, and mine was doing that...so i thought. The suggestions given were that thee head gaskets were probably bad. So, I began the %$#@%$@# of removing one of them, and thee head gasket was great. However, i brought the piston up to the top of the cylinder and i could jiggle it back and forth. I wasn't sure if that was normal or if I just have bad rings. (ugh) So, is the side to side movement normal for a piston?
This Poulan garden tractor was bought back in 2006 and it's been a great mower. I'd hate to throw it out because it's still in great shape. Last year I did a compression test and it was just over 100# if i remember right. Other than smoking real bad, it ran great and really didn't lose power cutting.
Like i said, i only removed one head, should i check the other as well before i scrap the motor? I don't have the tools or time for rings.
Opinions? Suggestions?
i read some posts in here about engines smoking on a hill, and mine was doing that...so i thought. The suggestions given were that thee head gaskets were probably bad. So, I began the %$#@%$@# of removing one of them, and thee head gasket was great. However, i brought the piston up to the top of the cylinder and i could jiggle it back and forth. I wasn't sure if that was normal or if I just have bad rings. (ugh) So, is the side to side movement normal for a piston?
This Poulan garden tractor was bought back in 2006 and it's been a great mower. I'd hate to throw it out because it's still in great shape. Last year I did a compression test and it was just over 100# if i remember right. Other than smoking real bad, it ran great and really didn't lose power cutting.
Like i said, i only removed one head, should i check the other as well before i scrap the motor? I don't have the tools or time for rings.
Opinions? Suggestions?
#2
S
SeniorCitizen
S
SeniorCitizen
The oil use problem can be connected to the good compression reading . There may be mower mechanics here with tolerances of wear .
#3
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
There are multiple things that can contribute to smoking from a small engine. Blown head gasket, worn cylinder and/or bad rings, oil level too high, due too fuel filling the crankcase, breather not working properly, rich running engine, etc. The color of smoke can give you a starting point where to look first. Blue smoke is normally an indication of oil consumption. Black smoke an indication of a rich ruling condition. White smoke is normally water in the fuel, but on a small engine I’ve seen white smoke when a unit is run on a slope where excess fuel and oil get sucked in together.
You need to do some more research and get back to us for more help. Check the plugs, what do they look like. Black sooty plugs indicate a rich running condition. Oily plugs mean oil getting into the cylinder. May be one or both cylinders. Causes may be blown gaskets, worn cylinder or rings, high oil level. After you are able to do more research let us know what you find.
You need to do some more research and get back to us for more help. Check the plugs, what do they look like. Black sooty plugs indicate a rich running condition. Oily plugs mean oil getting into the cylinder. May be one or both cylinders. Causes may be blown gaskets, worn cylinder or rings, high oil level. After you are able to do more research let us know what you find.
#4
M
mark abby
M
mark abby
I pulled the left side head off. it was loaded with thick carbon and the exhaust valve appeared to not be seating fully. I did a compression test on the opposite cylinder and my gage showed a steady 120 psi and held it there.
so, i cleaned the head of all carbon and i want to replace the valve seals....however, looking at B&S parts diagrams they don't show the exhaust seal that was in mine, the one i pulled out had a rubber tip on it, whereas the intake one is just a cap with a rubber seal. Looking on line, they show exhaust guides some have the rubber ring while other don't. Whats up with that? I'm not sure if they are the right ones for my engine.
so, i cleaned the head of all carbon and i want to replace the valve seals....however, looking at B&S parts diagrams they don't show the exhaust seal that was in mine, the one i pulled out had a rubber tip on it, whereas the intake one is just a cap with a rubber seal. Looking on line, they show exhaust guides some have the rubber ring while other don't. Whats up with that? I'm not sure if they are the right ones for my engine.
#5
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Exhaust blows and inlet sucks
So most mower engines just have a seal on the inlet valve as that will suck oil into the cylinder & blow smoke .
So most mower engines just have a seal on the inlet valve as that will suck oil into the cylinder & blow smoke .
#6
Tiger Small Engine
The play in the piston (slight back and forth when pushing it with fingers), is most likely worn connecting rod bearings. We are talking about an 18 year old Poulan riding mower that is smoking. Check color, amount, and when it is smoking while running. Keep an eye on the oil level every time you use it, top off as needed, and run it. You say it is smoking a lot. Is it smoking like a freight train constantly? If so, it is just a matter of time before she gives up the ghost.
Tiger Small Engine
Exhaust blows and inlet sucks
So most mower engines just have a seal on the inlet valve as that will suck oil into the cylinder & blow smoke .
The play in the piston (slight back and forth when pushing it with fingers), is most likely worn connecting rod bearings. We are talking about an 18 year old Poulan riding mower that is smoking. Check color, amount, and when it is smoking while running. Keep an eye on the oil level every time you use it, top off as needed, and run it. You say it is smoking a lot. Is it smoking like a freight train constantly? If so, it is just a matter of time before she gives up the ghost.
#7
M
mark abby
ok, but my question is the exhaust guide I removed had a rubber insert in it, and all the ones I have found don't seem to have that. I understand what you're saying, but, was this a design change for that motor? I even emailed B&S and asked, but they were of no help. The intake seal was easy to find. The parts diagram doesn't show that damn guide...at least the ones i'm looking at.
M
mark abby
Exhaust blows and inlet sucks
So most mower engines just have a seal on the inlet valve as that will suck oil into the cylinder & blow smoke .
ok, but my question is the exhaust guide I removed had a rubber insert in it, and all the ones I have found don't seem to have that. I understand what you're saying, but, was this a design change for that motor? I even emailed B&S and asked, but they were of no help. The intake seal was easy to find. The parts diagram doesn't show that damn guide...at least the ones i'm looking at.
#8
StarTech
StarTech
Not able the model/type number you posted please double check.
But normally nothing is insert in the exhaust valve guide other the the exhaust valve stem. Kawasaki is about the only one that uses seals on the exhaust.
Now as for the piston movement that is not normal. And it is probably the #2 cylinder which I have seen worn ovaled on several Briggs V-twins.
But normally nothing is insert in the exhaust valve guide other the the exhaust valve stem. Kawasaki is about the only one that uses seals on the exhaust.
Now as for the piston movement that is not normal. And it is probably the #2 cylinder which I have seen worn ovaled on several Briggs V-twins.
#9
M
mark abby
I don't normally get into engines like this but, the mower was a gift from my wife and it's in perfect shape except for the smoking.
motor:
446777-0244-E1
030425YG
it's on an Electrolux Poulan Pro Garden tractor....bought back in 2006
M
mark abby
that makes sense, i guess. So, the guides i've been looking at (without the rubber O ring) should be the correct ones. As for the piston movement, you're right. I read that when it's at the top of the cylinder it will move back and forth slightly. thanks for the feed back!! I really appreciate it.Not able the model/type number you posted please double check.
But normally nothing is insert in the exhaust valve guide other the the exhaust valve stem. Kawasaki is about the only one that uses seals on the exhaust.
Now as for the piston movement that is not normal. And it is probably the #2 cylinder which I have seen worn ovaled on several Briggs V-twins.
I don't normally get into engines like this but, the mower was a gift from my wife and it's in perfect shape except for the smoking.
motor:
446777-0244-E1
030425YG
it's on an Electrolux Poulan Pro Garden tractor....bought back in 2006
#10
StarTech
StarTech
With that already being three years old (2003 engine per the above date code) by the time you got the mower anything could have been done to it. But the manuals showing that Intek without o-rings is what I normally see here in the shop. I don't where the o-rings came from but they not normally there.
#11
M
mark abby
but.....i looked closely at the parts, and i'm ashamed to say the O ring part i was talking about was just the piece of the inside of the seal for the intake valve. Somehow it came apart in two pieces and i thought it came out of the exhaust guide. My bad.
Now, if i could ask you a favor, could you give me the part numbers for the intake valve and the exhaust guide? i've looked on line and so many so up I hate to order the wrong parts and go thru the hassle of sending them back ( not to mention listening to my wife)
again, thanks!!!!
M
mark abby
you're probably 100% right. It was bought brand new anyways and this is the first time i had to do anything to it.With that already being three years old (2003 engine per the above date code) by the time you got the mower anything could have been done to it. But the manuals showing that Intek without o-rings is what I normally see here in the shop. I don't where the o-rings came from but they not normally there.
but.....i looked closely at the parts, and i'm ashamed to say the O ring part i was talking about was just the piece of the inside of the seal for the intake valve. Somehow it came apart in two pieces and i thought it came out of the exhaust guide. My bad.
Now, if i could ask you a favor, could you give me the part numbers for the intake valve and the exhaust guide? i've looked on line and so many so up I hate to order the wrong parts and go thru the hassle of sending them back ( not to mention listening to my wife)
again, thanks!!!!
#12
StarTech
StarTech
The valve guides are non replaceable which why I have to replace head when they move out place. If they worn then it new heads.
These are superseded to 84001918 #1 and 84001919 #2. The last retail price I have here is $208.91 ea. for #1. #2 is a little less.
These are superseded to 84001918 #1 and 84001919 #2. The last retail price I have here is $208.91 ea. for #1. #2 is a little less.
#13
Reverett
Reverett
The Briggs and Stratton store on Amazon has the heads for 187.21 for # 1 and 146.10 for #2 (not Prime but free shipping). These are genuine Briggs and Stratton and B&S has a store on Amazon.
#14
F
Forest#2
F
Forest#2
Engine smoking on a hill, you say.
But not on level ground?????
Too many variables here. Blue smoke or black smoke.
See if oil is thinned out with gas or too full of oil. check breather.
If Blue oil smoke might do a leak down test.
But not on level ground?????
Too many variables here. Blue smoke or black smoke.
See if oil is thinned out with gas or too full of oil. check breather.
If Blue oil smoke might do a leak down test.
#15
G
Gord Baker
G
Gord Baker
I would try using SAE #30 oil which is thicker viscosity.27hp Twin B&S #446777 2441
i read some posts in here about engines smoking on a hill, and mine was doing that...so i thought. The suggestions given were that thee head gaskets were probably bad. So, I began the %$#@%$@# of removing one of them, and thee head gasket was great. However, i brought the piston up to the top of the cylinder and i could jiggle it back and forth. I wasn't sure if that was normal or if I just have bad rings. (ugh) So, is the side to side movement normal for a piston?
This Poulan garden tractor was bought back in 2006 and it's been a great mower. I'd hate to throw it out because it's still in great shape. Last year I did a compression test and it was just over 100# if i remember right. Other than smoking real bad, it ran great and really didn't lose power cutting.
Like i said, i only removed one head, should i check the other as well before i scrap the motor? I don't have the tools or time for rings.
Opinions? Suggestions?
#16
T
TobyU
T
TobyU
It is very rare and I do mean very rare to have one of these engines who are the valve guides that is going to create a problem with visually smoking. You might get a little increased or consumption but you're not going to see it so it's nothing to worry about.
I have my doubts about the head gaskets not being blown. Are you certain you looked closely right between the middle of the cylinder toward the lifter galley? They always blow right there in the middle maybe a quarter to a half inch up or down and typically down if anything and it will look like a small carbon line from a pencil being drawn vertically straight across that small area of metal.
It doesn't take much under all the pressure to really smoke and it will typically do it on a hill or if you get the motor warm for 5 or 10 minutes and then go around and tight circles to the left three times and then tight circles to the right three times and then back to the left. By the time you do all that, the oil will have sloshed enough that it will be smoking like a mosquito fogger and you won't even be able to see your house through the smoke.
I've done this many times.
The valve stem seals are not going to cause this type of visible smoke.
The other things that will cause visible smoking are typically fuel migration into the crankcase where the oil is all thinned out by gas getting in there. So check this or just change the oil and put straight 30 weight in it. 30 heavy duty or SAE 30 is the best oil for these..
This synthetic mumbo jumbo is really just a waste of money and they tend to use and leave more oil with synthetic and you just don't need it because the 30 weight SAE oil provides far more than good lubrication and the temperatures we use these mowers which should be above 55°.
I have my doubts about the head gaskets not being blown. Are you certain you looked closely right between the middle of the cylinder toward the lifter galley? They always blow right there in the middle maybe a quarter to a half inch up or down and typically down if anything and it will look like a small carbon line from a pencil being drawn vertically straight across that small area of metal.
It doesn't take much under all the pressure to really smoke and it will typically do it on a hill or if you get the motor warm for 5 or 10 minutes and then go around and tight circles to the left three times and then tight circles to the right three times and then back to the left. By the time you do all that, the oil will have sloshed enough that it will be smoking like a mosquito fogger and you won't even be able to see your house through the smoke.
I've done this many times.
The valve stem seals are not going to cause this type of visible smoke.
The other things that will cause visible smoking are typically fuel migration into the crankcase where the oil is all thinned out by gas getting in there. So check this or just change the oil and put straight 30 weight in it. 30 heavy duty or SAE 30 is the best oil for these..
This synthetic mumbo jumbo is really just a waste of money and they tend to use and leave more oil with synthetic and you just don't need it because the 30 weight SAE oil provides far more than good lubrication and the temperatures we use these mowers which should be above 55°.
#17
StarTech
StarTech
The 693997 head gaskets don't tend blow like the single cylinder Intek head gaskets.
#18
T
TobyU
In this case we should be looking at what year it is and what design of the air filter housing it has or more importantly if it's bypassing the air filter like so many did that destroyed the rings and short order for some reason.
This will cause a lot of oil burning and usage.
I can't tell you how many of these I've seen with that d-shaped hole air filter with a complete coating of dirt right inside of the hole going into the intake.
I still find it funny that people have run the singles for years with no air filter at all and not had really any problems but on the v-twins, and under a hundred hours these things were getting cooked from no filtration.
If it's not this, my next guess would be coked up rings or the oil control rings coked up etc.
Can't say I've seen it often in these but I have had good luck with various engines and getting them to improve by getting the engine in an upright position so I could pour berryman's B12 liquid into the cylinder about an inch or so high and let it soak down past the rings.
I would do this repeatedly and then work the engine back and forth about a quarter inch each way back and forth many times in between and during applications of this chemical cleaner to try to shake everything around and loosen up the rings in the lands.
I have had great results from this in certain situations.
T
TobyU
Ah, yes. I forgot or maybe missed that we were talking about a V-Twin here. Those hardly ever blow.The 693997 head gaskets don't tend blow like the single cylinder Intek head gaskets.
View attachment 67820
In this case we should be looking at what year it is and what design of the air filter housing it has or more importantly if it's bypassing the air filter like so many did that destroyed the rings and short order for some reason.
This will cause a lot of oil burning and usage.
I can't tell you how many of these I've seen with that d-shaped hole air filter with a complete coating of dirt right inside of the hole going into the intake.
I still find it funny that people have run the singles for years with no air filter at all and not had really any problems but on the v-twins, and under a hundred hours these things were getting cooked from no filtration.
If it's not this, my next guess would be coked up rings or the oil control rings coked up etc.
Can't say I've seen it often in these but I have had good luck with various engines and getting them to improve by getting the engine in an upright position so I could pour berryman's B12 liquid into the cylinder about an inch or so high and let it soak down past the rings.
I would do this repeatedly and then work the engine back and forth about a quarter inch each way back and forth many times in between and during applications of this chemical cleaner to try to shake everything around and loosen up the rings in the lands.
I have had great results from this in certain situations.
#19
M
mark abby
M
mark abby
well, i removed the heads and replaced valve seals and cleaned any carbon off the valves. one side was so bad the exhaust valve wasn't even seating. Once i put it all together i checked the compression....both sides were at about 50psi...lol...i squirted a little oil in and they went up over 100psi. I'm not going to put new rings in for several reasons, one being i don't have the time or ambition.
So, at this point, i'm undecided if i should scrap the whole thing or just buy a used motor. It's not like i need this mower, i have a 60" zero turn to use, i only used the Poulan for trimming in areas i could not fit thee zero turn
So, at this point, i'm undecided if i should scrap the whole thing or just buy a used motor. It's not like i need this mower, i have a 60" zero turn to use, i only used the Poulan for trimming in areas i could not fit thee zero turn
#20
T
TobyU
This was the problem with all the old original Saturn car engines and made them use oil and lots of it.
The best fix for this or at least the easiest is to get the engine tilted up a little bit or I guess it's called back so the spark plugs are kind of up in the air. Straight up is better but 45° will work.
A lot of people use seafoam but I prefer to use berryman's B12 and you get a funnel and you place the cylinders about Midway down or so and you pour at least two inches of the cleaner into the cylinder through the spark plug hole and a funnel or a tube.
Let it sit there for several hours and then if it all disappears and goes into the crankcase fill it up again.
For a twin like this I would use the whole 12 oz can of berryman's B12 or seafoam.
Then after it soaked for several hours I like to grab the pulley underneath the engine and rock it back and forth about 3/4 of an inch each direction.
Just enough for the Pistons to go up and down but not move enough to force any of the liquid out..
I want to rock it back and forth quickly and 30 or 40 times so it helps those rings get pushed to the top and then the bottom and the respective lands in the pistons.
Then, get you some towels and point it in a safe direction and get it all flat again and crank the engine over but be careful because it will blow any of the liquid that's still in there across the room.
Then put the plugs back in and start it up.
Once you know it runs, change the oil and only use one of two oils.
Mobile 1 European 5W-40 or rotella t6 5w40.
These are both fully synthetic oils that I would actually recommend the rotella because it has a higher detergency.
Put the old level all the way to the full mark if not an eighth of an inch above and run the engine for normal use.
This has an absolute wonders to some engines that have smoking and ring problems and especially those Saturn cars too.
It gets noticeably better quicker but it will continue to improve even a lot more as the oil continues to work and as soon as it starts to look dirty, with any of the carbon getting it darker than a nice clear look, change it again
T
TobyU
Well, when it goes up with oil that means your rings aren't sealing properly but before I would trash it since you said you had lots of carbon on it, there's a high degree of likelihood the rings are just coked up in the Piston lands.well, i removed the heads and replaced valve seals and cleaned any carbon off the valves. one side was so bad the exhaust valve wasn't even seating. Once i put it all together i checked the compression....both sides were at about 50psi...lol...i squirted a little oil in and they went up over 100psi. I'm not going to put new rings in for several reasons, one being i don't have the time or ambition.
So, at this point, i'm undecided if i should scrap the whole thing or just buy a used motor. It's not like i need this mower, i have a 60" zero turn to use, i only used the Poulan for trimming in areas i could not fit thee zero turn
This was the problem with all the old original Saturn car engines and made them use oil and lots of it.
The best fix for this or at least the easiest is to get the engine tilted up a little bit or I guess it's called back so the spark plugs are kind of up in the air. Straight up is better but 45° will work.
A lot of people use seafoam but I prefer to use berryman's B12 and you get a funnel and you place the cylinders about Midway down or so and you pour at least two inches of the cleaner into the cylinder through the spark plug hole and a funnel or a tube.
Let it sit there for several hours and then if it all disappears and goes into the crankcase fill it up again.
For a twin like this I would use the whole 12 oz can of berryman's B12 or seafoam.
Then after it soaked for several hours I like to grab the pulley underneath the engine and rock it back and forth about 3/4 of an inch each direction.
Just enough for the Pistons to go up and down but not move enough to force any of the liquid out..
I want to rock it back and forth quickly and 30 or 40 times so it helps those rings get pushed to the top and then the bottom and the respective lands in the pistons.
Then, get you some towels and point it in a safe direction and get it all flat again and crank the engine over but be careful because it will blow any of the liquid that's still in there across the room.
Then put the plugs back in and start it up.
Once you know it runs, change the oil and only use one of two oils.
Mobile 1 European 5W-40 or rotella t6 5w40.
These are both fully synthetic oils that I would actually recommend the rotella because it has a higher detergency.
Put the old level all the way to the full mark if not an eighth of an inch above and run the engine for normal use.
This has an absolute wonders to some engines that have smoking and ring problems and especially those Saturn cars too.
It gets noticeably better quicker but it will continue to improve even a lot more as the oil continues to work and as soon as it starts to look dirty, with any of the carbon getting it darker than a nice clear look, change it again
#21
M
mark abby
M
mark abby
never heard of that before, but it's worth a try....thanks!Well, when it goes up with oil that means your rings aren't sealing properly but before I would trash it since you said you had lots of carbon on it, there's a high degree of likelihood the rings are just coked up in the Piston lands.
This was the problem with all the old original Saturn car engines and made them use oil and lots of it.
The best fix for this or at least the easiest is to get the engine tilted up a little bit or I guess it's called back so the spark plugs are kind of up in the air. Straight up is better but 45° will work.
A lot of people use seafoam but I prefer to use berryman's B12 and you get a funnel and you place the cylinders about Midway down or so and you pour at least two inches of the cleaner into the cylinder through the spark plug hole and a funnel or a tube.
Let it sit there for several hours and then if it all disappears and goes into the crankcase fill it up again.
For a twin like this I would use the whole 12 oz can of berryman's B12 or seafoam.
Then after it soaked for several hours I like to grab the pulley underneath the engine and rock it back and forth about 3/4 of an inch each direction.
Just enough for the Pistons to go up and down but not move enough to force any of the liquid out..
I want to rock it back and forth quickly and 30 or 40 times so it helps those rings get pushed to the top and then the bottom and the respective lands in the pistons.
Then, get you some towels and point it in a safe direction and get it all flat again and crank the engine over but be careful because it will blow any of the liquid that's still in there across the room.
Then put the plugs back in and start it up.
Once you know it runs, change the oil and only use one of two oils.
Mobile 1 European 5W-40 or rotella t6 5w40.
These are both fully synthetic oils that I would actually recommend the rotella because it has a higher detergency.
Put the old level all the way to the full mark if not an eighth of an inch above and run the engine for normal use.
This has an absolute wonders to some engines that have smoking and ring problems and especially those Saturn cars too.
It gets noticeably better quicker but it will continue to improve even a lot more as the oil continues to work and as soon as it starts to look dirty, with any of the carbon getting it darker than a nice clear look, change it again