Export thread

I have a John Deere z655 54HC that was given to me last year by my dad when he got a new one. The only issue he had with it while he owned it was an oil leak. He had the John Deere dealer fix it. Well, it happened again so he gave to me. I mowed with it last year and it ran great, I just had to put oil in it before mowing. I pulled it in the garage a few months ago and replaced the sump gasket. (A known problem). That fixed the leak but that very same day when first mowing with it it broke a rod. It actually still ran though.
The engine is a Briggs, 27 HP 44Q9 77 0113 G5. I priced a new engine at 1200 bucks. I have a daughter about to go to law school and a son a senior in high school so to say funds are a little tight is an understatement. I have also looked on marketplace for used engines. I found a 21 horsepower van guard with the same shaft size for $100 bucks but am a little afraid of it being powerful enough and also they had it running on starting fluid so I am not sure what the real condition of the motor is.
That being said I am a shade tree mechanic and years ago did repair a small tiller engine with a thrown rod. It worked out ok. I also attempted this with another previous lawn mower with a thrown rod many years ago and it smoked like a freight train as soon as I started it. I ended up giving it away.

I have pulled this engine apart. The crank had some melted aluminum from the broken rod but I was able to get most of it off with muriatic acid. I am thinking of buying a used rod/piston on eBay and maybe a new set of rings. Would I be crazy to rebuild this cheaply? I am checking the dimensions as I have time. So far everything looked ok but for some reason the camshaft journals were under sized compared to spec.

The mower ran really well last year. When it broke the rod this year, the compression on the good cylinder was 130. It would actually run on that cylinder alone.

did the broken rod hit the bore, case or anything else?

No. I see no other damage other than destroyed rod and piston.

My two cents worth won’t be much help, but I’ll throw it out there anyway. In my opinion it will all rest on how much of a gambling man are you. Buying an undersized engine or rebuilding the old one, will either make you look like a genius or a fool. In either case you have a 50/50 chance. Buying used you don’t have any idea of the internal condition or it’s placed use. It was removed for a reason. Will it last???? Rebuilding one partial area of an engine always carries the caveat, will something else go wrong? Will it last??? The first question I always ask the customer who asks what to do, “If it only lasts for one season, will it be worth the investment to you?” You’re the only one who can answer that question.

Rivets said:

My two cents worth won’t be much help, but I’ll throw it out there anyway. In my opinion it will all rest on how much of a gambling man are you. Buying an undersized engine or rebuilding the old one, will either make you look like a genius or a fool. In either case you have a 50/50 chance. Buying used you don’t have any idea of the internal condition or it’s placed use. It was removed for a reason. Will it last???? Rebuilding one partial area of an engine always carries the caveat, will something else go wrong? Will it last??? The first question I always ask the customer who asks what to do, “If it only lasts for one season, will it be worth the investment to you?” You’re the only one who can answer that question.

Click to expand...

I will say I tend to keep and repair everything I own. I once had a truck with 370,000 miles on it. This is the nicest mower I own. I really just can not afford a 1000 dollar engine and it looks like I will be watching every penny for the next 5 years or so untill kids complete school.
I do have two other mowers, one is a non zero turn John Deere. It is in decent shape but it is terribly slow. I live in the country and have a large rough yard. It takes me two hours to just mow going as fast as I can with the zero turn.

First off the crank journal has to be perfect, getting "most" of the metal transfer off doesn't cut it. There may be scoring under the remaining deposit. Also, check the camshaft bearing journals in the block, these sometimes get cracked. Also the camshaft. About 1 in five of these engines I have gotten after throwing a rod is rebuildable.

As for the sticker saying the Vanguard is a lesser hp. doesn't amount to much. The engine model number you gave has been sticker rated from 22 hp up. The Vanguard is a much better engine when new but running it on Starter Fluid is not good and may foretell carburetor trouble and who knows what else. Running it for any length of time on starter fluid may score the cylinder walls. I would want to examine it in person and it being running on gasoline at the time.

Walt Conner

Typically when one of these is not rebuildable, what typically is wrong with them to make them that way?
I am not done working on crank.
Are the bearings in the block the cam rides in replaceable?

No bearings, just aluminum bushings. You’ll be able to see very quickly if they are bad.

Stryped said:

I will say I tend to keep and repair everything I own. I once had a truck with 370,000 miles on it. This is the nicest mower I own. I really just can not afford a 1000 dollar engine and it looks like I will be watching every penny for the next 5 years or so untill kids complete school.
I do have two other mowers, one is a non zero turn John Deere. It is in decent shape but it is terribly slow. I live in the country and have a large rough yard. It takes me two hours to just mow going as fast as I can with the zero turn.

Click to expand...

In this case fitting a smaller would be a no no
IF you want to cut quick then you need to replace it with the same size or bigger
I have not checked the 3 usual suspects for cheap engines
Small Engine warehouse
Small Engine suppliers
the Surplus centre
Usually they have very cheap engines but right now as last season engines were in short supply there will not be as much stock and what they have will be at a higher price
Any 44 series B & S engine will drop strait in & hook strait up
Usually ones with smaller alternators are a lot cheaper which is good because they all interchange so you can swap yours over .

As for being financially overstretched that is your problem
You have just gotten better than $ 100 worth of information for free from the web
FWIW I worked a full time night shift , payed board to my parents while I was at college
It taught me the value of money & hard work plus self reliance , three things they don't teach in college

Well maybe I used the wrong terminology. I should have said "Not practical" to repair. A couple of big things is cracked camshaft bearing tower in the block and damage to the cylinder typically at the bottom in these cases, damage to the governor spindle and or the engine casting holding the governor shaft. In my case, I was always interested in what profit I could make rebuilding an engine. It has been a few years since I was rebuilding engines but at that time a new piston for that engine was around $40, connecting rod $40, gasket set $35 plus you will want to replace the crankshaft seals first thing you know there is no profit. All that is assuming the crankshaft can be cleaned up, the block isn't cracked, the cylinder scored and camshaft is OK. Each thing adds to the cost unless you have a supply of downer engines which I did.

Walt Conner

Stryped said:

Typically when one of these is not rebuildable, what typically is wrong with them to make them that way?
I am not done working on crank.
Are the bearings in the block the cam rides in replaceable?

Click to expand...

anything is rebuildable, the issue is the cost of doing so. If it costs $300 in parts, $50 in shipping, and $450 in labor to rebuild an engine, is it feasible when a brand new engine can be obtained for $595?

Usually the benefit of rebuilding it is the labor one saves when they do it themself. However it they have problems after the rebuild then what have they achieved? Also if machine work was needed as part of the labor cost, one may still have some labor cost in rebuilding it so the savings may not be as great as one thinks they will get.

Another thing DIY need to realize is that shops who do the work, know what quality they put out and what their be-back rate is. They can factor that into their prices and day, but when a DIY is involved that shop may not want the machine work job due to the risk of be-back if the DIY makes a mistake, and the amount of their time that ultimately ends up in it when the DIY starts asking for free advice.

sgkent said:

anything is rebuildable, the issue is the cost of doing so. If it costs $300 in parts, $50 in shipping, and $450 in labor to rebuild an engine, is it feasible when a brand new engine can be obtained for $595?

Usually the benefit of rebuilding it is the labor one saves when they do it themself. However it they have problems after the rebuild then what have they achieved? Also if machine work was needed as part of the labor cost, one may still have some labor cost in rebuilding it so the savings may not be as great as one thinks they will get.

Another thing DIY need to realize is that shops who do the work, know what quality they put out and what their be-back rate is. They can factor that into their prices and day, but when a DIY is involved that shop may not want the machine work job due to the risk of be-back if the DIY makes a mistake, and the amount of their time that ultimately ends up in it when the DIY starts asking for free advice.

Click to expand...

I can not get an engine for this for 595 bucks

well posting here is free
The engine repair manuals can be obtained for free
You can dismantle the engine, clean & measure all of the parts for free
Then you can upload the photos for free
Those who regularly repair these engines know what is worth fixing & what is not
We also know where to look for problems
So strip it down , clean & measure
Just remember that when it comes to running clearances , these are micrometer measurement, not verniers with digital read outs
So unless you have the gear to measure properly all you will be doing is tossing money down the drain..
And as Walt has already mentioned you have to check very carefully for other damage
I have rebuilt more than one engine in a hurry and missed things like a hairline crack in the cam shaft bearing casting , only to find it opened out enough to dissable the governor & the nice newly rebuilt engine blew itself apart within a single season .
From that day on every seizure or broken rod rebuild gets treated to a nice new sump .

Have you pulled the oil pump apart yet ?

As for fitting used parts there is no way I will think about it.
A complete used engine perhaps but used piston & rod absolutely no unless I had a very accurate knowledge of it's history.
A rebuild gasket kit is about the same as a new con rod so not worth the risk .

A piston is 100 dollars and a rod not far from that. Rings are 40 bucks for one piston. I want to use all new parts but it adds up.

What exactly is “reject size” compared to standard size?

It how much the cylinder and other components are worn beyond a normal size. If the measurement is at or beyond the reject size then the next over or under size need to be used. If it is the cylinder then rigid honing to the next oversize is needed. Most Briggs engines now only have 0.020 inch over size piston and rings available along with standard size piston and rings..

When checking the cylinder it must be done at top middle and bottom of the stroke. And it is done twice at each level with one at 90 degrees of the first measurement of each level. What you are checking for overall wear, ovaling, and tapering cylinder. What I have seen on most Briggs v-twin verticals is that #2 cylinder tend to be the one that wears out first and is usually oval at the bottom of the stroke.

StarTech said:

It how much the cylinder and other components are worn beyond a normal size. If the measurement is at or beyond the reject size then the next over or under size need to be used. If it is the cylinder then rigid honing to the next oversize is needed. Most Briggs engines now only have 0.020 inch over size piston and rings available along with standard size piston and rings..

When checking the cylinder it must be done at top middle and bottom of the stroke. And it is done twice at each level with one at 90 degrees of the first measurement of each level. What you are checking for overall wear, ovaling, and tapering cylinder. What I have seen on most Briggs v-twin verticals is that #2 cylinder tend to be the one that wears out first and is usually oval at the bottom of the stroke.

Click to expand...

Thanks so much! Just a couple of additional questions….
1. The cylinder with rod that did not break (cylinder 2) had 130 psi of compression, which I assume is good. Does this mean it is Lilly in spec? I know I have to check but how can an out of spec cylinder have excellent compression?
2. What is the camshaft spec again? When I measured the hole in the crankcase and sump that the cam rides in, it measured around .503 which does not seem right.

You DO NOT want the engine you sent me the link too!! That is an old engine, not a Vanguard at all a discontinued opposed twin and 21 hp is stretching it! Strongly suggest you look for a complete mower maybe with bad deck, front axle, transmission and salvage the engine after checking of course. An estate sale perhaps.

Walt Conner

Tinkerer200 said:

You DO NOT want the engine you sent me the link too!! That is an old engine, not a Vanguard at all a discontinued opposed twin and 21 hp is stretching it! Strongly suggest you look for a complete mower maybe with bad deck, front axle, transmission and salvage the engine after checking of course. An estate sale perhaps.

Walt Conner

Click to expand...

Tinkerer200 said:

You DO NOT want the engine you sent me the link too!! That is an old engine, not a Vanguard at all a discontinued opposed twin and 21 hp is stretching it! Strongly suggest you look for a complete mower maybe with bad deck, front axle, transmission and salvage the engine after checking of course. An estate sale perhaps.

Walt Conner

Click to expand...

Would this be a decent engine and powerful enough for my 54 inch zero turn? https://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/44N677-0037
I forgot to mention I have the choke o matic on my mower.

yes

May be big enough but I would still stay away from it. Remember he is running the engine on starting fluid and it is probably 25 years old or more, we don't have the code numbers nor the model number, could be a 42 or 46 series. Lots of newer used engines and crippled complete mowers out there with good V twins on them.

Walt Conner

sgkent said:

anything is rebuildable, the issue is the cost of doing so. If it costs $300 in parts, $50 in shipping, and $450 in labor to rebuild an engine, is it feasible when a brand new engine can be obtained for $595?

Usually the benefit of rebuilding it is the labor one saves when they do it themself. However it they have problems after the rebuild then what have they achieved? Also if machine work was needed as part of the labor cost, one may still have some labor cost in rebuilding it so the savings may not be as great as one thinks they will get.

Another thing DIY need to realize is that shops who do the work, know what quality they put out and what their be-back rate is. They can factor that into their prices and day, but when a DIY is involved that shop may not want the machine work job due to the risk of be-back if the DIY makes a mistake, and the amount of their time that ultimately ends up in it when the DIY starts asking for free advice.

Click to expand...

Last fall I was using a push mower to mow some brush. The blade hit a small stump , the engine turned on the mower base and a corner was knocked out of the bottom crankcase pan. I decided to fix it, Found a new-ish crankcase pan off of Ebay, I bought all the seals and gaskets, including carburetor parts needed for rebuild, new blade, new flywheel shear key, new sparkplug, and proceeded to fix it. I bought this mower new so I was aware of its condition before it got the hole in the pan so, to me, it was worthwhile, and kind of fun since I enjoy doing those things. Going into this I knew there was a risk of having a bent crankshaft but it turned out well and runs as good as it ever has so it was money well spent, even though it MAY have been cheaper to just replace it.

Would this one work?
only thing is mine is a choke o matic and this has a separate choke

My 2 cents worth is based on my engine issues in the recent past. When my ZTR Husqvarna engine broke a rod, I factored in all the "if's" and related costs of rebuilding the engine compared to the mower replacement cost for a similar mower. Although i certainly did not want to spend the new engine cost, doing so gave me a better pressure-lubed engine with a bit more horsepower(19 vs 17.5) and also a 2yr warranty. Now I have a mower I am familiar with and like, that now runs like new, because part of it is brand new.