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Briggs 16 hp. Is it worth salvaging?

#1

Berniebac

Berniebac

I bought a tractor last week for $50. I really just wanted the mower deck and the owner said it "threw the piston and broke the connecting rod.". That's all he said. So I get it home and the tractor is in really good shape and I thought why not investigate this engine to see if it could be made to run.

I took the hood and front grill off to get a better look at the motor. I also pulled the shroud. There is a lot of old oil on the front frame of the tractor, under the motor and just above the muffler housing. I wonder if the head gasket has been leaking for some time.

I looked the engine all over, still in the tractor, and could not find a crack or hole in the engine where the rod came through. I pulled the plug, shone a flashlight in the plug hole and could see the top of the piston. Spun the engine by hand and the piston did not move. I took a piece of dowel and pushed it in the plug hole and I could move the piston back with little effort.

There does seem to be a lot of fresh oil near the bottom of the engine, but the motor is full of oil. I suspect he filled it after it quit.

Briggs 16 hp, mod. 311777, type0209-E1, Code 011211ZD

My questions:
1) can the connecting rod break and not damage the engine I.e. not come through the side of the engine?

2) do you think it is worth trying to salvage the engine?

3) what should I do next?

Sorry, no pics, my computer is broke and I am on the iPad and don't know how to load a pic.


#2

scott47429

scott47429

take the engine off and take it apart look it over real well make sure nothing else id damaged if not the order a rod and see what happens i saved a snapper RER that blew a rod and bent the intake valve put in a new rod and valve and my brother is still mowing with it 3 years later so yes it is possible and if you have the time and nothing else is hurt it would be worth it


#3

Berniebac

Berniebac

Thanks Scott for the reply, I might as well remove it cause it wont do much good in the tractor as is. And, I might learn a lot by tearing it down.

Just worried about compression where I could push the piston back with such little effort, I wonder if the cylinder is beyond repair?

Any other thoughts out there?


#4

scott47429

scott47429

well unless the piston is broke or has a hole in to or the cylinder is scared up you won't have compression problems the reason you could push the piston back easy is because nothing is connected to it and the compression stroke is one of the up stokes not the down plus you had no plug it it so its worth taking apart and seeing whats going on once you get it apart just look it over good and check the cylinder i thing it will be fine i reused the old piston with new rings and was fine


#5

Berniebac

Berniebac

Thanks again. I pulled it out of the tractor this afternoon and got a few things off it like the shroud, starter cover, oil filler tube, heat shield and the carb. I haven't spotted any cracks or holes yet. I will keep tearing it down to see what I find. Maybe it will work. Wish I knew what really happened to it.


#6

R

Rivets

If you are interested Briggs sells a Vanguard V-Twin OHV repair manual for about $22.00. Might be of help. I refer to it all the time.


#7

Berniebac

Berniebac

Rivets, I am not sure this would help. I don't think it is a v-twin. I think it is a single cylinder. Would the manual cover this as well? Or am I missing something. Regardless, as in the past, I appreciate your help.


#8

R

Rivets

Sorry, you know what you get when you assume. Single cylinder manual part number #276781. About the same price


#9

Berniebac

Berniebac

Well that is great info and I just might make the investment. It can't hurt to have something to guide you thru the process of rebuilding.


#10

Berniebac

Berniebac

I pulled the engine from the tractor, stripped off the carb, starter, throttle, etc and cleaned it all off. I cannot find a crack or hole where the connecting rod came through.

As my next step in the investigation I would like to see if there is a hole in the piston, or if the cylinder is scored.

Can I just go ahead and take the head off, or do I have to disassemble the cam portion of the engine before pulling the head off?

Pics of what I have seen so far. Cleanest this engine has been in a long time.

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#11

R

Rivets

You are going to have to do it eventually, so go for it.


#12

reynoldston

reynoldston

Its been a some time since I did the job but as I remenber it seem that this engine uses push rods for the valves and not a overhead cam. Can't be any big job removeing the head. Even if a engine has a overhead cam you just have to keep track of the timeing marks, but nothing you have to worry about on this engine.


#13

Berniebac

Berniebac

Thanks guys. If as scott47429 pointed out, the cylinder and piston are good, then I will order the book that Rivets identified and see what it takes to put it back together. I will let you know what I find when I pull the head and will likely need some help with a list of parts that I will need.


#14

Berniebac

Berniebac

Re: Briggs 16 hp. Is it worth salvaging? Pics of Inside

I will post a couple times to get some pics of the head, piston, cylinder and the crankshaft. I don't know how many pics I can post in one message so I will break them up into two or three messages.

First, the head is off, connecting rod broken at crankshaft end.

Second, the same view with the piston turned over to show the end of the piston.

Once the head was off, I found a bunch of metal filings to the left of the intake valve. It doesn't show well in the pick because the filings and the head are all black and the flash did not light them up. The piston does not have a hole in it and the spark plug was not damage.

But, I do believe a lot of oil leaked out at the head gasket so I wonder if the piston drove forward and warped the head. Wonder how you can tell?

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#15

reynoldston

reynoldston

If it was me I would of just pulled off the valve cover off or removed the spark plug before I ever pulled the engine out of the chassie and taken it all apart. Who knows maybe all it has is a bad valve push rod? I guess we will find out.


#16

Berniebac

Berniebac

Re: Briggs 16 hp. Is it worth salvaging? More Pics Inside.

The cylinder does not seem badly scored inspite of the filings I found on the head and the little bits of metal inside the cylinder. The little bits of metal seemed to follow along as the connecting rod was pulled out. I don't know how to tell if the cylinder is so badly scored to be good anymore. I can see the crosshatching inside the cylinder. I cannot feel any marks on the cylinder wall with my fingers, but we are probably talking thousands of an inch, so maybe you can't feel a bad score mark.

In the second photo you can see inside the engine to the crank, and you can see the crank is scored from the rod breaking off. Is this beyond repair and in need of replacement?

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#17

Berniebac

Berniebac

Re: Briggs 16 hp. Is it worth salvaging? More Pics Inside.

Finally, a shot down the cylinder to the crankshaft and again you can see the marks that the rod left on the crank. It feels pretty rough, so I am betting replacement of the crank would be necessary. Your thoughts on that would be appreciated.

I know it is hard to judge from photos, but my original question remains. Is it worth trying to salvage this motor or is the damage beyond repair?

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#18

Berniebac

Berniebac

reynoldston said:
If it was me I would of just pulled off the valve cover off or removed the spark plug before I ever pulled the engine out of the chassie and taken it all apart. Who knows maybe all it has is a bad valve push rod? I guess we will find out.
Click to expand...

Renoldston, you are probably correct, but I wouldn't have recognized that anyway. The tear down has been interesting and a learning experience. I have never been inside an engine before. So, imagine how I feel about rebuilding it. I think I can do it, but I don't know if it is worth it.

If my guess at what a push rod is, is correct, they both look exactly the same. I haven't taken the time to study the parts manual, but will if I decide to put it back together.


#19

M

mullins87

Look at it this way, if the engine isn't worth fixing, then you've gain valuable experience tearing down an engine. You will know what the inside looks like and will probably be able to figure out how it all goes back together. As a general rule, if you can drag your fingernails across any scratches in the cylinder an they don't "hang" on each scratch, then they can usually be honed out fairly easily. The crank probably is ruined, but only a closer look will tell you that. I say, if you can reuse the original crank or find another one fairly cheaply, then rebuild it and see what happens. :thumbsup:


#20

reynoldston

reynoldston

Some nice pictures. Keep track of your push rods so you don't mix them. From the looks of the crankshaft it looks like it was ran out of oil . From the looks of the picture the crank looks scored. This means the crankshaft will have to be replaced unless they make a oversize connecting rod and if this is the case you can have the crankshaft ground down. I don't think they make connecting rods for mower engines with rod bearing inserts but I would also look into it if I was you. What does the piston look like. The clyinder wall looks good.


#21

Berniebac

Berniebac

Mullins and Reynoldston, thanks for the replies. The crank is definitely scored and I would guess a replacement, either new or used would be appropriate. Will wait to see if there are any other opinions offered.

To me the piston looks good other than being burnt black on the top end. I cannot find a mark on the cylinder wall at all and certainly nothing that I could hook a fingernail on.

I am only guessing here, but a new crank, connecting rod, rings, head gasket and what ever other incidentals may be needed are going to put this rebuild into the $300 range for my local pricing. If it goes that high I might be afraid to take it on with my limited experience. That, and I still have to tear down the rest of the motor to clean out all the metals pieces from the rod, make it a bit frightening.

But I am not giving up yet.


#22

scott47429

scott47429

it looks like the crank will need to be replaced for sure but the cylinder looks good and the piston looks good i would check around and see if you can find a used crank get a new rod and some rings and put it back together you will be surprised its not all that hard a job that engine looks good compared to what i used to do to my 5 horse methanol buying go kart engines when they would let go there wasn't much left just read the manual take your time ask questions and you can do it remember the only dumb question is the one that you didn't ask


#23

Berniebac

Berniebac

Thanks Scott, that is a confidence booster for sure. I won't know till I get the manual, but I am guessing that all the metal pieces from the rod have got to be cleaned out of the engine, so I hAve to separate the two halves of the engine get all the old oil out and all the shrapnel. Would it be best to have the manual to continue to strip the engine further?


#24

scott47429

scott47429

yes you will need to split the engine to clean it out and you will have to do that to replace the crank shaft anyway get all the parts out that you can and just clean it with some parts cleaner or gas and a brush (outside of course ) or if you have a machine shop close by have them run the parts through there parts washer you don't have to have the manual to take it apart but it will be handy putting it back together like i said just take your time and read and ask questions you will be fine


#25

Berniebac

Berniebac

Thanks scott. I will investigate the parts before moving on. I think I found the parts list for the motor on the Briggs site after Rivets told me about the manual.


#26

PJ

PJ

Berniebac said:
I bought a tractor last week for $50. I really just wanted the mower deck and the owner said it "threw the piston and broke the connecting rod.". That's all he said. So I get it home and the tractor is in really good shape and I thought why not investigate this engine to see if it could be made to run.

I took the hood and front grill off to get a better look at the motor. I also pulled the shroud. There is a lot of old oil on the front frame of the tractor, under the motor and just above the muffler housing. I wonder if the head gasket has been leaking for some time.

I looked the engine all over, still in the tractor, and could not find a crack or hole in the engine where the rod came through. I pulled the plug, shone a flashlight in the plug hole and could see the top of the piston. Spun the engine by hand and the piston did not move. I took a piece of dowel and pushed it in the plug hole and I could move the piston back with little effort.

There does seem to be a lot of fresh oil near the bottom of the engine, but the motor is full of oil. I suspect he filled it after it quit.

Briggs 16 hp, mod. 311777, type0209-E1, Code 011211ZD

My questions:
1) can the connecting rod break and not damage the engine I.e. not come through the side of the engine?

2) do you think it is worth trying to salvage the engine?

3) what should I do next?

Sorry, no pics, my computer is broke and I am on the iPad and don't know how to load a pic.
Click to expand...

Hi
You could be luky. I dont hear you say big hole on side of engine what ever! your next step would be to remove and do a complete strip down. This would enable you to do a full inspection. Your biggest chalange would be to obtain the correct spares per part number. If the sleeve are not damaged you could repair fairly cheap

Good luck

PJ


#27

Berniebac

Berniebac

I was just going thru the parts diagram trying to figure out what I might need and I noticed they do make a connecting rod that is .02 undersized. I guess that means you could take that much off of the crankshaft and use the undersized rod. Is that a correct assumption? 0.02 is not much to take off. Wonder if it is scored beyond that.

Any suggestions?


#28

scott47429

scott47429

take the crank to a machine shop and have them look it over and take some measurement and see if it can be saved with a over size rod but i would say find another crank


#29

R

Rivets

Don't want to throw a wet blanket on this party but, The only real way to check the crankshaft and cylinder is by taking a lot of measurements. You will have to use micrometers and verniers to do this right. Unless you take measurements and compare to specs. you may be throwing a lot of money away. I would also suggest that if you decide to rebuild, you have the valves done also. Before you start ordering any parts, figure exactly what parts you think you need and then look up the prices on the Internet. Briggs, Jack small engine, Parts tree etc. Don't forget a full gasket set and seals. When you get that info post back. It may be cheaper and easier to purchase a short block, which would mean the only machining that will need to be done is the valves. Just did one like this in March, 20hp, and the customer went piece meal, no short block, bill was around $850. That included my labor 7 hrs at $60/hr.


#30

scott47429

scott47429

its always good to hear what you have to say Rivets i don't know about the other guys on here but i do know i value your opinion very much and no its not going to be cheap and he needs to take his time figure out what needs to be done and what parts he will need thats why i said take the crank to a machine shop


#31

R

Rivets

I agree, but if he has a mic, he can measure it himself and we can tell him how to proceed and save him a bit of $$$.


#32

Berniebac

Berniebac

Thanks guys for that discussion on the crank, it helps a lot. I have a digital caliper and that is it. It might help with the crank measurement, but not the cylinder.

I was just looking at the parts on the bench and noticed that both valves are closed tight. I didn't think they should be closed at the same time. If you look at the photos above, you can probably spot it in the picture where the push rods are pointing strait up into the air. I wonder if they got smacked by the piston pushing them both closed. They are jammed in there pretty tight. No signs of a hit on the piston tho.

I have been doing up a parts list for the rebuild and will check prices before I order anything. I can buy a brand new 19 hp motor for about $500 that comes with a two year warranty, so I can't see me investing more than a couple hundred in parts for a rebuild. Just not worth it.


#33

scott47429

scott47429

valves are sometimes closed at the same time like the compression stroke and the power stroke but the reason both of yours is closed is because you have the head off so the push rods can't hold the valves open so thats normal


#34

R

Rivets

If you can get a new engine for $500 go for it. Rebuilding will not be worth yours or our time.


#35

Berniebac

Berniebac

Thanks again guys. I have a parts list done up and will check prices on line tomorrow. I think I will watch the listings as well and see if I can get a used motor to put in. Just missed one last Friday a guy was giving away his tractor with a 15 hp motor because the transmission was shot. Never know, maybe I could have used his motor and it was free. I hate missing out on those.


#36

R

Rivets

Post the list for us.


#37

Berniebac

Berniebac

Rivets said:
Post the list for us.
Click to expand...

Attached is my parts list. Sorry it didn't format too well I did it as a spreadsheet then copied it into Notepad to get the proper formatting (.txt file) allowed for uploading to the site.

The crankshaft is shown as no longer available, so I used a price from a similar model just so I could arrive at a representative price range. I also included a carb kit because I would not put it back together without overhauling the carb. I suspect there may be a few additional parts, feel free to suggest anything I have missed.

At this price, I would not go ahead with the rebuild, simply not worth it given I have no experience and could easily mess things up. I am disappointed because it would have been fun. If I could get the cost down, I would love to give it a try.

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  • PartsListEngRebuild.txt
    353 bytes · Views: 9


#38

scott47429

scott47429

i think you can probably look around and find a used crank then it may be worth it but your right at that price find another engine


#39

Berniebac

Berniebac

scott47429 said:
i think you can probably look around and find a used crank then it may be worth it but your right at that price find another engine
Click to expand...

I am trying to find a local boneyard to pick over and will watch for used parts on the local listings. I haven't given up yet, but have to keep the cost down. It is just not worth too much money to put into a ten year old tractor. I just might go with my original idea and part it out and save the mower deck. We will see.


#40

Berniebac

Berniebac

I have found a 14 hp motor to replace my 16 hp. The 16 hp was Mod. 311777, Type 0209-E1, Code 011211ZD. The 14 hp replacement is Mod. 287707, Type 0224-01, Code 97011ZD.

So, the replacement is a little older, but said to be in good shape. I cannot locate much on the web to compare the two models, I can only find info on the newer motors on the Briggs site.

Any opinions on whether or not the 14 hp is a suitable replacement to the 16. I can't get the 14 hp till next Monday.


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