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Just curious how brand loyal people are regarding zero turn mowers.

You are opening a can of worms, which has been debated many times on this forum. Every tech has his favorite, depending on his experience and what is available in their area. Personally I would take any opinions on this subject with a grain of salt. Boils down to two things, what your gut says and the size of your wallet.

Rivets said:

You are opening a can of worms, which has been debated many times on this forum. Every tech has his favorite, depending on his experience and what is available in their area. Personally I would take any opinions on this subject with a grain of salt. Boils down to two things, what your gut says and the size of your wallet.

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thanks for the feedback

Every maker can put out a duff model
Every maker can get components that pass QC yet fail in service
What is important is what they do when those things happen .
And all but the family owned companies have a board whos only criteria is tomorrows share price is higher than yesterdays .
So for those companies profit or rather profit to equity ratio is GOD .
Family owned business are mostly treated as an inheriantance so the management will jump through hoops to keep customers happy to ensure the long term future of the company
Down side of the latter is they will always have a higher price in order to run at a profitable turn over.
Big companies just want to sell more than their competitors so their aim is to push prices down in order to have a bigger market share .

Where loyality makes a massive difference is the place where you buy the mower from .
Finding a dealer who stands behind their product , gives good service & honest advice is very difficult and when you find one they are worthwhile supporting on a continuing basis .
Now day money has become a religion so down here most family owned mower shops have been gobbled up by big franchise agents run by accountants along the lines of a McDonalds / KFC shop .

As for which brands are best , that will depend upon your grass, your land & your lifestyle.
Having said that the only residential brands I suggest customers look at are JD, Toro & Country Clipper .
When you go to commercials then the field is a lot larger as Ferris , Hustler , Walker & Cox get added to the mix but now Hustler has been taken over I am reluctant to suggest them particularly as the Australian distribution agent is Briggs & Stratton Australia and their warehousing & distribution is pathetic & makes President Putin look humane & efficient

bertsmobile1 said:

Every maker can put out a duff model
Every maker can get components that pass QC yet fail in service
What is important is what they do when those things happen .
And all but the family owned companies have a board whos only criteria is tomorrows share price is higher than yesterdays .
So for those companies profit or rather profit to equity ratio is GOD .
Family owned business are mostly treated as an inheriantance so the management will jump through hoops to keep customers happy to ensure the long term future of the company
Down side of the latter is they will always have a higher price in order to run at a profitable turn over.
Big companies just want to sell more than their competitors so their aim is to push prices down in order to have a bigger market share .

Where loyality makes a massive difference is the place where you buy the mower from .
Finding a dealer who stands behind their product , gives good service & honest advice is very difficult and when you find one they are worthwhile supporting on a continuing basis .
Now day money has become a religion so down here most family owned mower shops have been gobbled up by big franchise agents run by accountants along the lines of a McDonalds / KFC shop .

As for which brands are best , that will depend upon your grass, your land & your lifestyle.
Having said that the only residential brands I suggest customers look at are JD, Toro & Country Clipper .
When you go to commercials then the field is a lot larger as Ferris , Hustler , Walker & Cox get added to the mix but now Hustler has been taken over I am reluctant to suggest them particularly as the Australian distribution agent is Briggs & Stratton Australia and their warehousing & distribution is pathetic & makes President Putin look humane & efficient

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Hi there,
thanks so much for this! I appreciate the detail you went into. Do you mind if I ask which state you are in?

New South Wales , Australia
FWIW my customer list is around 1000 .
On average 2 of them buy a new mower every year.
A rarely recommend any of them buy a ZTR as I can mow a lot faster with a 34" Greenfields Fastcut than most can do with a 42" ZTR . 42" being the most common size down here . And those who took this advice would never part with their Greenfields once they got used to mowing backwards around tight objects ( yes we are allowed to mow backwards down here )
On top of that Greenfields mowers barely depreciate .
Fourty year old mowers will sell for $ 2000 in a day even when the engine is buggered.
They use Std polly belts and swing back blades so cost about 1/2 to 1/3 of what any other mower do to run ( apart from a Cox ) So the extra $ 2000-$3000 is recouped very very quickly then repaid in spades .
Add to that the disc clutch costs $ 300 to recork + replace the bearings and will it last forever , got a couple that are over 30 years old & still on original corks , oldest one in continious service is 44 years old and still mowing the 3 acre plot .
Apart from that my footprint is in the foothills of the Blue Mountains so no such thing as a level block.
I am forever back trading modern walk behinds for 20+ year old 2 strokes because the 4 strokes suffer from oil starvation.
Thus ZTR's apart from the Clippers & steering wheel Cub or Toro are the only safe ZTRs to use around here.
Toro no longer makes their steering wheel model ( or at least it is no longer imported here ) and I would not wish the Cubs on my worst enemy.
I rarely watch TV so my opinions are based on products , not advertising BS .
Although a line from Alister Cave ( BSA Motorcycles plant manager ) readily comes to mind
" As our products became antiquated & unsuitable for service our advertising became more sofisticated to prove they were not "
Or to put it another way
Quality sells while rubbish has to be sold

bertsmobile1 said:

Quality sells while rubbish has to be sold

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Agreed, & Cool is not cheap & cheap is not cool..

Brand loyalty is only one small consideration when making a purchase, as has been clearly stated above, several other things need considered.

1) Will it do the job ?
2) What are the annual running/maintenance costs ?
3) Who will fix it when it breaks down ?
4) How quickly will it get fixed ?
5) What is the value when (if) I trade it in ? (depreciation) ?

Buying local, maybe at a small premium adds value if all the above are ticked.

Definitely buying local
has benefits. I have recently seen some horror stories about remote purchases.

For brand loyalty I don't have a particular as they all have their good points and bad points. As a mechanic and shop owner I try to keep with the flaws and keep parts in stock for those flaws. As for style of mower I have gotten to like the ZTRs over riders for most of my mowing. But it is because I have 6 acres and access to the commercial mowers that I repair. What I don't like in mowers are tiny riders but I am six foot tall and 240 lbs as they look like I am going to crush them. Some of them I have seen I have go back to my truck and laugh myself silly.

Is this like an oil thread?

My brand is better than your brand.

This is what I was referring to

Or the Ariens 34" Zoom which the above 30" is smaller.

bertsmobile1 said:

Every maker can get components that pass QC yet fail in service
What is important is what they do when those things happen .
And all but the family owned companies have a board whos only criteria is tomorrows share price is higher than yesterdays .
So for those companies profit or rather profit to equity ratio is GOD .
Family owned business are mostly treated as an inheriantance so the management will jump through hoops to keep customers happy to ensure the long term future of the company
Down side of the latter is they will always have a higher price in order to run at a profitable turn over.
Big companies just want to sell more than their competitors so their aim is to push prices down in order to have a bigger market share .

Where loyality makes a massive difference is the place where you buy the mower from .
Finding a dealer who stands behind their product , gives good service & honest advice is very difficult and when you find one they are worthwhile supporting on a continuing basis .
Now day money has become a religion so down here most family owned mower shops have been gobbled up by big franchise agents run by accountants along the lines of a McDonalds / KFC shop .

As for which brands are best , that will depend upon your grass, your land & your lifestyle.
Having said that the only residential brands I suggest customers look at are JD, Toro & Country Clipper .
When you go to commercials then the field is a lot larger as Ferris , Hustler , Walker & Cox get added to the mix but now Hustler has been taken over I am reluctant to suggest them particularly as the Australian distribution agent is Briggs & Stratton Australia and their warehousing & distribution is pathetic & makes President Putin look humane & efficient

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Bert (and anyone else with advice!)
I want to replace my Toro SS 4260. Based on your advice regarding Toro for residential mowers, staying with Toro sounds good to me. It looks like a new Timecutter with a 42 inch deck is only available with the Kohler engine. Would that be a dealbreaker for you?

Wouldn’t be a deal breaker for me, but I’ve been a Toro guy for the last 45+ years.

So someone show me a brand that hasn't cheapen up over the years? Why would one be brand loyal when someone else comes out with a better product the next time you purchase.

I drove Honda cars for years, when they cheapened up and put CVT trans in the models I wanted, it was off to the Toyota dealer where I could steal purchase a real transmission. What's in a brand name if it's not a quality product... JMHO, Cheers, Ray

This is Russian and advertising children’s stuff. Definitely against the rules. Amanda needs to be banned.

RayMcD said:

So someone show me a brand that hasn't cheapen up over the years? Why would one be brand loyal when someone else comes out with a better product the next time you purchase.

I drove Honda cars for years, when they cheapened up and put CVT trans in the models I wanted, it was off to the Toyota dealer where I could steal purchase a real transmission. What's in a brand name if it's not a quality product... JMHO, Cheers, Ray

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Brand loyalty for most products across the board has become much less in the last 30-40 years than in the past. The mower market (rider and zero turn) has become very competitive on cost and features. The lines have been blurred to some extent. I will take a zero turn over a riding mower any day of the week, including Sunday.

Morgyn Isaac said:

Just curious how brand loyal people are regarding zero turn mowers.

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Nope! Right now, the only engines I trust are Kawasaki and Honda, but if something just as good comes along, I would buy it. As for the frame and deck, it's easy to examine them and determine the quality right in the store.

Hammermechanicman said:

Is this like an oil thread?

My brand is better than your brand.

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The question can be answered yes or no without getting into brands. And my answer is no.

Rivets said:

Wouldn’t be a deal breaker for me, but I’ve been a Toro guy for the last 45+ years.

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Staying with what you know isn't necessarily brand loyalty. If you trust 2, 3, or 4 brands, you default to the one you are familiar with running and servicing.

At one time when I was young and naive. Now, I put myself in the shoes of most every companies CEO, i.e. give me a golden parachute and I'll jump in a heat beat. Loyalty is meant to be a two-way street . . . . .

Morgyn Isaac said:

Just curious how brand loyal people are regarding zero turn mowers.

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Those who aren't "brand loyal" probably bought crap initially or didn't realize they've bought crap until it's too late. For some it's a progression based on what you can afford or unverified recommendations from others.

Morgyn Isaac said:

Just curious how brand loyal people are regarding zero turn mowers.

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I look at longevity possibilities, the easy to work on machines seem to be the better built. Are parts available. A determination is hard to make. Cause, owners do not maintain their machines properly.

Have_Blue said:

Nope! Right now, the only engines I trust are Kawasaki and Honda, but if something just as good comes along, I would buy it. As for the frame and deck, it's easy to examine them and determine the quality right in the store.

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Well, Kawasaki and Honda engines, but running gear such as spindles, pulleys, and belt routing is much harder.

Country Clipper has been an excellent brand but is having trouble recovering from COVID. Exmark uses a lot of Chinese parts and engines. Bad Boy is up and coming seeming to do everything right.

When I had a lot - as in a couple of acres - to mow, I bought a used SATOH (Misubishi) tractor with a 60" finish mower on the back and a loader on the front. It was 25hp/4cyl gas, 3/2 trans and turf tires. $2000. Very fast - not as agile as a Z-turn, but so much more versatile. I sold it with the property. But I have a small diesel with loader now and only need a rider mower.

Anyway, a little off topic, but certainly an option for many people to consider.

These days it's a fools game to be brand loyal. Everything has been on a race to the bottom the past 20+ years. You have to take what's good at that moment.

I owned an auto repair / small engine repair shop for 14 years. I've come to the conclusion that if you got ANYTHING good today - automotive, or outdoor power equipment - consider yourself lucky. You've got yourself a Wednesday product.

I had an '07 Silverado 1500 4x4 with the 5.3 that was built on a Friday ... Christmas Eve. By 100k miles the entire front end was brand new, along with the suspension, was on it's 15th brake job (most of them done under warranty due to a constant pulsation from FORTY miles ...), and half its driveline had been replaced (rear end @97k, and transmission @ 103k).

Never mind the incessant squeaks and rattles that started at 2k miles, the beer-can strong bodywork that rotted through at year 10 and dented if you sneezed too close, and the complex electronics with 300k miles of wiring to go with it that was a constant problem.

My rule of thumb with automotive stuff is to stick with anything built before 1995. Same with OPE, except there's some good stuff to be found all the way up to 2015 or so. You just have to look HARD for it.

When i first laid eyes on ztr and decided to buy it was a 1992 Dixon 361ztr new for $3,500 while other manufacturers were selling their riders for less than a thousand i thought i got hood winked by a shifty salesman but just yesterday 32 yrs later i adjusted the transaxles put new blades on it and it's ready to mow. I haven't changed a single spindle bearing yet. Last year i thought one spindle bearing was going out so i bought a set for both spindles. When i started taking it apart for the task i found a chunk of about 1/2"x1/2" stick lodged in a spindle pulley under the belt I took it out and mower mowed fine and new cheap bearings are sitting on shelf. Last year i did change transaxle drive belt idler pulley for the first time. BTW i popped sealed bearing plastic cover off and loaded it up with grease then installed as grease is minimal in this new crap "looks like vaseline" and also greased original idler pulley on mower deck.The bearing seal covers back then were pressed on steel not plastic so i kinda distorted it getting it out but was able to reinstall it's not perfectly sealed possibly but it'll have to work. Sadly husqvarna bought Dixon for the patents and Dixon is now junk like the rest. I did the math on my investment of $3,500 over a 30 yr period and found myself well ahead money wise by this purchase I forget the numbers now. Hydro-gear is junk and last I looked $700 plus to replace just one.
Dixon created the ztr btw and i think he was probably paid handsomely to close his doors also probably threatened because lawn mower is big business and massive profits especially in repair parts side.
My hats off to Scag I've never owned one but i did have the opportunity to go over one that the briggs had caught fire i think dry grass was the culprit. It didn't have hydro-gear trannys it had actual hydraulic pumps at the wheel which are extremely durable about the size of one on a crane turntable.
For you consumers that generally maintain your own mower when you are changing a belt while it's down remove idler pulley pop the plastic bearing cover off with pocket knife,razor knife or when that's not available 1/8" flathead screwdriver and grease it while your there and as i mentioned above do same to new bearing pack both sides with bearing grease or press it through one side your choice. An idler pulley shouldn't spin freely if it does that means there's no resistance hence not much grease if any. A well lubed bearing will have resistance and should turn a round or so before it stops spinning if it spins 4-6 times it needs grease.
By the way if it wasn't for Dixon you'd still be riding a tractor style lawn mower. R.I.P. Dixon

Smithsonite said:

These days it's a fools game to be brand loyal. Everything has been on a race to the bottom the past 20+ years. You have to take what's good at that moment.

I owned an auto repair / small engine repair shop for 14 years. I've come to the conclusion that if you got ANYTHING good today - automotive, or outdoor power equipment - consider yourself lucky. You've got yourself a Wednesday product.

I had an '07 Silverado 1500 4x4 with the 5.3 that was built on a Friday ... Christmas Eve. By 100k miles the entire front end was brand new, along with the suspension, was on it's 15th brake job (most of them done under warranty due to a constant pulsation from FORTY miles ...), and half its driveline had been replaced (rear end @97k, and transmission @ 103k).

Never mind the incessant squeaks and rattles that started at 2k miles, the beer-can strong bodywork that rotted through at year 10 and dented if you sneezed too close, and the complex electronics with 300k miles of wiring to go with it that was a constant problem.

My rule of thumb with automotive stuff is to stick with anything built before 1995. Same with OPE, except there's some good stuff to be found all the way up to 2015 or so. You just have to look HARD for it.

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I inherited my dad's 782 Cub cadet. I will keep it running as long as I can!

I bought a Yazoo 35 years ago, and use it every year. So I could say yes a brand snob. The lawn mower is the most abused machine on the market. Folks waste a ton of time, & money because of it, then blame the mower. I know one brand that absolutely is junk from once it was............ Briggs & Stratton

OIL .......... ACE hd does just fine, changing it every season is all that's required

I am very brand loyal to craftsman. 2 craftsman riding mowers, 3 cordless drills, A recip saw, a cordless impact, 3/8 cordless ratchet and power inverter, several socket sets, a craftsman pressure washer, and some screwdrivers. Only reason I bought a McGraw 8 gallon air compressor was because it was $149.99

quality and long life.

Not particularly brand loyal but loyal to my local service centre . They sell a ton of stuff and are great at stocking parts for it all and doing the service work if I cannot . Quanties in Locust Grove Oklahoma , not your regular Napa store at all .

Brand loyalty would likely be dependent on experience with similar equipment of a particular brand. Once an owner has a bad experience with a previously trusted brand, trust is eroded and justifies a close look at other brands.

I'm brand loyal on 2-cycle equipment. It's Echo or nothing. For 4-cycle equipment, it's a case-by-case situation. I won't buy single cylinder Briggs or Kohlers any more. I'm not wild about MTD products, but I own a Cub Cadet Pro Z. It's commercial, so it has better parts than the residential MTD stuff. I'm in the market for a tractor. I'm leaning toward Kubota, but only because the best and closest dealer is Kubota. I'd be ok with several other brands of tractors, but the closest dealers for some of them are hours away.

I have Echo & Shindaiwa. They both are great for me with over 10 years of use since buying them new.

I used to be pretty big into brand loyalty... but that was before EVERYTHING affordable was made in China.

Japan's Tanaka when they were still in business. The only manufacturer with a 7 year residential warranty, 3 year commercial. Light, simple, trivial to work on. Still believed the customer was smart enough to make their own carb adjustments.

Brand loyalty has been perverted and exploited by marketing for the past 25 years. The older well-established companies have shifted much of their manufacturing to foreign countries where labor laws and unions do not exist. Products are made of lesser quality and reduced weight to make them cheaper to ship in bulk quantities.

Quality has tanked and the market is flooded with junk machines and parts that no longer last.

End users are gravitating towards disposable more and equipment is becoming less repairable.

Unless a person is a DIY type, the shop cost of parts and labor to replace a camshaft in a B&S single is more than just buying a new engine these days. People are reluctant to invest in service or repairs, so they just keep buying new machines, run them until they fail and repeat the process.

Now along comes tariffs and new residential riders cost as much as a used car and commercial riders cost as much as some new compact cars.

Auto Doc's said:

Brand loyalty has been perverted and exploited by marketing for the past 25 years. The older well-established companies have shifted much of their manufacturing to foreign countries where labor laws and unions do not exist. Products are made of lesser quality and reduced weight to make them cheaper to ship in bulk quantities.

Quality has tanked and the market is flooded with junk machines and parts that no longer last.

End users are gravitating towards disposable more and equipment is becoming less repairable.

Unless a person is a DIY type, the shop cost of parts and labor to replace a camshaft in a B&S single is more than just buying a new engine these days. People are reluctant to invest in service or repairs, so they just keep buying new machines, run them until they fail and repeat the process.

Now along comes tariffs and new residential riders cost as much as a used car and commercial riders cost as much as some new compact cars.

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Kawasaki makes their small engines in MO and NE. One of the first to do so. Toyota, Subaru, Nissan and Honda followed suit. Not everything is made overseas. Tariffs can be avoided. Buy American. Just because it sounds foreign doesn't mean it's not built here by American labor and materials. Some of the engines are built elsewhere but marketing isn't forcing anyone to buy anything. I don't think blaming marketing for retarded consumers is the right path.

Auto Doc's said:

Brand loyalty has been perverted and exploited by marketing for the past 25 years. The older well-established companies have shifted much of their manufacturing to foreign countries where labor laws and unions do not exist. Products are made of lesser quality and reduced weight to make them cheaper to ship in bulk quantities.

Quality has tanked and the market is flooded with junk machines and parts that no longer last.

End users are gravitating towards disposable more and equipment is becoming less repairable.

Unless a person is a DIY type, the shop cost of parts and labor to replace a camshaft in a B&S single is more than just buying a new engine these days. People are reluctant to invest in service or repairs, so they just keep buying new machines, run them until they fail and repeat the process.

Now along comes tariffs and new residential riders cost as much as a used car and commercial riders cost as much as some new compact cars.

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You can replace a camshaft in a used engine for less than half of what a new engine costs.

Tariffs have been overhyped and used as excuses a lot lately. Most tariffs have not even taken affect and are just being used as a tool to get the countries in line that have been ripping off the good old U.S.A. for years now.

Quality, reliable, well built and well engineered products have not gone out of style. A Toyota vehicle can still run for 300,000 miles, and a Stihl chainsaw can still perform for many years.