Blown Engine - Looking for Ideas!

[Tree & Lawn Care]

I just blew the motor on my 2004 Scag Tiger Cub 52" 24HP (Honda) ZTR today. I bought this machine ten years ago and have changed the oil regularly, kept it well maintained but for some reason the engine blew a hole in the side this afternoon. Looking for ideas as to where to go from here. As I've read this forum, I can either replace it with another Honda motor or perhaps another brand. The dealer I work with (who used to be a Scag dealer) recommends putting a Kawasaki in it. I open for ideas.

 

[dnewton3]

Odd that a Honda blew a hole in the side. What caused the catastrophic failure? Over-revving? Bad rod? Dumb luck?


Generally, any decent engine from Kaw, Koehler, B&S, Honda can be used as long as you use the right crankshaft configuration.

Most all the engine brands have a slightly differnt wire harness set up, so when you view the Scag manuals, they each will have unique adaptors for the connector. But rest assured, they all achieve the same task. You can use the Scag manual to even make up your own jumper harness from one brand to another! My point is that if you select something other than an exact replacment, it will not be a simple "plug and play" situation. However, it's not really that hard to get into alternative brands AS LONG AS YOU KNOW HOW TO READ AND WIRE BASIC ELECTRONICS. If you don't, then find someone who can.

Here's a great place to get new engines for cheap. They get most of their stuff from production over-runs or close-outs.
Home - Small Engine Warehouse

Just put in the criteria you want and narrow it down
For example, put in:
gas engine
vertical shaft
1" shaft
2 cylinder
HP desired
etc, etc

Again - make sure to use the criteria from your engine (shaft size, etc) so that the new engine will match up to the PTO clutch; shaft size is probably the most critical to match up as most other stuff can be modified to accomodate. Even if the chassis holes are not lined up (which would be rare as most are universally used) it's easy to drill some new mounting holes. Make sure to pick one that has a charging system adequate for your electric PTO, if applicable. Some engines only have smaller stators for battery charging and lights; these will often be seen as "5/3" or similar. But high amp draw apliances like the PTO would need 10 or more like 15 amps available. If you have questions, you can call or email their tech line for help selecting a motor.

Also, in your selection pay close attention to the muffler topic; some come with one, some don't. That would also make a difference between your Honda and some other brand.

While you had 24HP, I'm not convinced you could not get away with a bit less; that would open up options for you as well. Only you can determine how much HP you need; are you mowing at home or commercial; how many hours a day or week; how much heavy wet grass, how many hills, etc, etc

I have used them before and been pleased. However they are not the only game in town, and other sources offer similar choices, so it pays to shop around. Jackssmallengines would be another such source. And there are others ...

Bottom line is that you can repower your rig for less than a $grand if you're not too picky, and able to do some of your own work (or find a buddy that will work for beer/pizza!).

That should get you headed in the right direction.

 

[Tree & Lawn Care]

Odd that a Honda blew a hole in the side. What caused the catastrophic failure? Over-revving? Bad rod? Dumb luck?


Generally, any decent engine from Kaw, Koehler, B&S, Honda can be used as long as you use the right crankshaft configuration.

Most all the engine brands have a slightly differnt wire harness set up, so when you view the Scag manuals, they each will have unique adaptors for the connector. But rest assured, they all achieve the same task. You can use the Scag manual to even make up your own jumper harness from one brand to another! My point is that if you select something other than an exact replacment, it will not be a simple "plug and play" situation. However, it's not really that hard to get into alternative brands AS LONG AS YOU KNOW HOW TO READ AND WIRE BASIC ELECTRONICS. If you don't, then find someone who can.

Here's a great place to get new engines for cheap. They get most of their stuff from production over-runs or close-outs.
Home - Small Engine Warehouse

Just put in the criteria you want and narrow it down
For example, put in:
gas engine
vertical shaft
1" shaft
2 cylinder
HP desired
etc, etc

Again - make sure to use the criteria from your engine (shaft size, etc) so that the new engine will match up to the PTO clutch; shaft size is probably the most critical to match up as most other stuff can be modified to accomodate. Even if the chassis holes are not lined up (which would be rare as most are universally used) it's easy to drill some new mounting holes. Make sure to pick one that has a charging system adequate for your electric PTO, if applicable. Some engines only have smaller stators for battery charging and lights; these will often be seen as "5/3" or similar. But high amp draw apliances like the PTO would need 10 or more like 15 amps available. If you have questions, you can call or email their tech line for help selecting a motor.

Also, in your selection pay close attention to the muffler topic; some come with one, some don't. That would also make a difference between your Honda and some other brand.

While you had 24HP, I'm not convinced you could not get away with a bit less; that would open up options for you as well. Only you can determine how much HP you need; are you mowing at home or commercial; how many hours a day or week; how much heavy wet grass, how many hills, etc, etc

I have used them before and been pleased. However they are not the only game in town, and other sources offer similar choices, so it pays to shop around. Jackssmallengines would be another such source. And there are others ...

Bottom line is that you can repower your rig for less than a $grand if you're not too picky, and able to do some of your own work (or find a buddy that will work for beer/pizza!).

That should get you headed in the right direction.

Thank you for the information. I don't know what happened. I purchased this mower brand new back in 2004 and have maintained it regularly since I bought it. I use it in my lawn care business, in a commercial application. We probably put between 15 - 20 hours a week on that machine. I had just changed the oil and oil filter, spark plugs, fuel and air filters. I was just mowing a long as usual when it puked. Started to shutter, and stalled. I looked back to find oil spraying out the side along with a lot of smoke. My son came over, looked at it and said, "Is that hole in the side of the motor supposed to be there?

It was interesting because when I called the dealer they told me these motors (Honda) typically only last about 2000 hours. I was surprised to hear this. I would have thought they would go a lot longer than that, although I don't have a frame of reference, this is the first and only ZTR I've owned.

After having looked at several forums, I'm leaning towards purchasing another new or used Honda motor and installing it myself with a friend that knows a lot more about electrical schematics than I do. I do know that common sense and patience gets you a long ways, but its always nice to have a friend help that knows more than I do about these things. I'll pay attention to the specs as you've mentioned to make sure I order the right motor. Thanks for your input, its been helpful.

 

[ILENGINE]

Be aware that Honda did a rework of there twin engines about 5 years ago. Basically went to a semi hemi head type system, and consolidated blocks. Your old exhaust may not fit a new Honda, because the mounting angle has changed.

 

[Tree & Lawn Care]

Be aware that Honda did a rework of there twin engines about 5 years ago. Basically went to a semi hemi head type system, and consolidated blocks. Your old exhaust may not fit a new Honda, because the mounting angle has changed.

Thanks for the information. So, can one assume those engines are better as a result of the modifications? Can one expect to get more than 2000 hours before it blows? Having never bought a new engine, what comes with the engine? Does the carburetor come with it, etc.?

 

[ILENGINE]

The main differences in what engines come with will be with or without air filter, with or without muffler, with or without fuel tank. the model consolidation within Honda was 6 blocks changed to 2. Also they changed from a open to run igntion system to a closed to run ignition system, which if that is the case will also require replacing the ignition switch.

 

[Mad Mackie]

New engines come complete, but a muffler, control cables, electrical changes, fuel line changes may be needed.
Look thru Small Engine Warehouse, Tulsa Engine Warehouse and others to see what is available. Depending on the crankshaft dimensions of your Honda, you may be able to repower with a Briggs Vanguard in the 20-23 HP range for a reasonable price.
I repowered my 2008 Tiger Cub from a 26 Briggs ELS engine to a 30 Briggs Professional Turf series engine. The engines being similar made the repower easy, same muffler, same cables, same electrical connector, no fuel system changes. A crankshaft size of 1 1/8" X 4 5/16" will limit your options.
As has been mentioned, the crankshaft size is critical to a repower, with an exhaust system being next.
As with any repower, there are hidden extras that always show up!!! I suggest that you replace the electric clutch as you repower your machine. Although rare, when a clutch develops a short to ground but still operates, the path of least resistance is into the crankshaft, the engine bearings, then to the engine block ground. When this happens, a major internal engine failure will happen. This happens more often than most realize as it usually is misdiagnosed. I reinstalled my original clutch as it checked out, however I have spare clutches in my parts stash for all my machines that have electric clutches. The downside to stocking clutches is the warranty expires 12 months from the purchase date to a retail purchaser. Having had to replace electric clutches in the middle of a snowstorm, I'll take the risk of expired warranty!!!
Mad Mackie in CT :laughing::biggrin::smile:

 

[brianslawncare]

Try small engine warehouse.

 

[Tree & Lawn Care]

Try small engine warehouse.

Thanks. I called and spoke with them. They didn't have the right motor available. After a lot of research and reading multiple forums I decided to take the mower to a local "Scag" dealer and they dropped a new Honda motor in it for me. As it turned out they had to completely modify the muffler, get a new wiring harness, a bunch of new relays etc etc. to get the new motor to work. After (4) weeks its done now. And we're back in the saddle. Thanks for all your suggestions. It was helpful.

 

[dnewton3]

I find it odd they had to go through so much rework; revise muffler, new harness, relays, etc ...
That's exactly the kind of work you'd have to do yourself had you go the engine from a discount house like the ones we suggested.

Regardless, if you're happy with the result, that's all that matters.