You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Export thread
Billable Hours
#1
K
KevIsland
K
KevIsland
How would I find out the billable hours for a cam shaft replacement on a single cylinder Briggs 33R877-0008-G1.
#2
StarTech
StarTech
Book time is 1Hr 30Min.
#3
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
When I kicked off I got my hands on a warranty repair scheduled fee book
Originally I billed these hours then eventually realised they were for nice new machines that were clean and being done in a workshop with every time saving special tool sitting within arms reach of the factory trained tech.
You can spend 1/2 hour just cleaning the mower enough to work on it .
Now I charge nearly double the scheduled fee , no one complains and I end up getting about $ 10 / hr actually spent on the job
There is a Tecumseh on on here https://www.mymowerparts.com/pdf/ which while not being B & S the times will be roughly the same engine type to engine type .
Originally I billed these hours then eventually realised they were for nice new machines that were clean and being done in a workshop with every time saving special tool sitting within arms reach of the factory trained tech.
You can spend 1/2 hour just cleaning the mower enough to work on it .
Now I charge nearly double the scheduled fee , no one complains and I end up getting about $ 10 / hr actually spent on the job
There is a Tecumseh on on here https://www.mymowerparts.com/pdf/ which while not being B & S the times will be roughly the same engine type to engine type .
#4
Hammermechanicman
Hammermechanicman
Like Bert said, the flat rate is for a clean machine in a well outfitted shop with every special tool known to man and includes no diagnostic time. No shop around me charges customer what the flat rate manual says. They charge the time the tech starts on it till they finish. The flat rape manual is for what dealer pays a tech. Not what a dealer will bill out to a customer.
#6
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
The afore mentioned Tecumseh manual also says 90 minutes for a large OHV single ( 14 to 18.5 Hp )
If you downloaded it then you would have noticed the * in the margin alerting you that it "might require R & R" so that adds another 60 minutes so now you are at 2.5 Hrs .
The companies down here who repower ride ons charge 4 hours for a strait engine swap, more if some "special fitting required " .
Stihl bless their helmet wearing hearts allow 15 minutes cleaning + 20 minutes for diagnosis .
The Stihl one is near impossible to work out because it breaks down the labour into tiny sections
Remove starter , remove blower, remove carburettor on manifold, remove carburettor alone etc etc etc.
It is a good idea when billing out your time to semi itemise
So if the mower was filthy and the owner brought it in for a service , rather than a repair
They get 1/2 hour cleaning the 1/2 hr diagnosis as the first 2 items in the labour section
The last item is always "test mow x minutes OK " , 1/2 hr for walk behinds & 1 hr for ride ons .
I am sort of lucky like this because the work shop is on a farm and I use customers equipment to do most of the mowing .
I get a lot of repairs in where the customer took the mower to a workshop, got it back & it was still not fixed.
Even then I get caught out
Just finished a warranty repair on a Billy Goat vacuum.
Ran a full tank through in the yard without a problem
Customer took it home &ran 5 minuets then it stopped
After multiple pull downs it finally twigged & I got him to bring the bag so the engine was under load .
After 5 minutes sucking up grass clippings from a pile waiting for composting it stopped .
Then undid the fuel cap and heard the big suck , a bad fuel cap
Prior to that it sat in the yard and ran through 2 full tanks of fuel without a hiccup .
So if you are being charged 4 to 6 hours that would not be unreasonable
Same if you are billing the time out.
If you downloaded it then you would have noticed the * in the margin alerting you that it "might require R & R" so that adds another 60 minutes so now you are at 2.5 Hrs .
The companies down here who repower ride ons charge 4 hours for a strait engine swap, more if some "special fitting required " .
Stihl bless their helmet wearing hearts allow 15 minutes cleaning + 20 minutes for diagnosis .
The Stihl one is near impossible to work out because it breaks down the labour into tiny sections
Remove starter , remove blower, remove carburettor on manifold, remove carburettor alone etc etc etc.
It is a good idea when billing out your time to semi itemise
So if the mower was filthy and the owner brought it in for a service , rather than a repair
They get 1/2 hour cleaning the 1/2 hr diagnosis as the first 2 items in the labour section
The last item is always "test mow x minutes OK " , 1/2 hr for walk behinds & 1 hr for ride ons .
I am sort of lucky like this because the work shop is on a farm and I use customers equipment to do most of the mowing .
I get a lot of repairs in where the customer took the mower to a workshop, got it back & it was still not fixed.
Even then I get caught out
Just finished a warranty repair on a Billy Goat vacuum.
Ran a full tank through in the yard without a problem
Customer took it home &ran 5 minuets then it stopped
After multiple pull downs it finally twigged & I got him to bring the bag so the engine was under load .
After 5 minutes sucking up grass clippings from a pile waiting for composting it stopped .
Then undid the fuel cap and heard the big suck , a bad fuel cap
Prior to that it sat in the yard and ran through 2 full tanks of fuel without a hiccup .
So if you are being charged 4 to 6 hours that would not be unreasonable
Same if you are billing the time out.
#7
StarTech
StarTech
I do forget techs can take 8 hours to do a 30 minute job as one of my customers found out when I was offline taking care of my mother with dementia which was a 24/7 jobs. He came by after the local JD charged him 8 hours of labor to change out a hydraulic K46 fan when all that had to be done was remove the battery to access the fan which I showed him.
Yes it take me up to 4 hrs but includes having to answer the phone and deal with walk-ins during the same time frame. Beside if I charge the 8 hrs at $100 that JD did I would be having the same complaints. Even at $45 it can get expensive when other work is required to be done. Inexperience techs don't get paid extra for being slow here.
When it comes to oils leaks there is usually extra time spent on cleanups which gets billed as additional labor time. Like the replacing of an oil seal that another shop failed to replace twice and customer ran the mower until there was gas and oil from front to back which made a 30 minute into a 4 hour job. That customer was a little ill about the cost until I explained why the charges were what they were.
I don't usually charge for cutting my own lawn with the customer's mowers. It usually needs it considering it is 6 acres.
Yes it take me up to 4 hrs but includes having to answer the phone and deal with walk-ins during the same time frame. Beside if I charge the 8 hrs at $100 that JD did I would be having the same complaints. Even at $45 it can get expensive when other work is required to be done. Inexperience techs don't get paid extra for being slow here.
When it comes to oils leaks there is usually extra time spent on cleanups which gets billed as additional labor time. Like the replacing of an oil seal that another shop failed to replace twice and customer ran the mower until there was gas and oil from front to back which made a 30 minute into a 4 hour job. That customer was a little ill about the cost until I explained why the charges were what they were.
I don't usually charge for cutting my own lawn with the customer's mowers. It usually needs it considering it is 6 acres.
#8
cpurvis
cpurvis
Broken bolts, stripped threads, or other such things that sometimes happen can blow the flat rate out of the water.
#9
I
ILENGINE
I
ILENGINE
Sounds like one of those customers that brings in their mower and says that it runs for awhile and then dies. And you ask how long does it run before dying and they respond with 2 hours. And with that I might as well mow my lawn.I do forget techs can take 8 hours to do a 30 minute job as one of my customers found out when I was offline taking care of my mother with dementia which was a 24/7 jobs. He came by after the local JD charged him 8 hours of labor to change out a hydraulic K46 fan when all that had to be done was remove the battery to access the fan which I showed him.
Yes it take me up to 4 hrs but includes having to answer the phone and deal with walk-ins during the same time frame. Beside if I charge the 8 hrs at $100 that JD did I would be having the same complaints. Even at $45 it can get expensive when other work is required to be done. Inexperience techs don't get paid extra for being slow here.
When it comes to oils leaks there is usually extra time spent on cleanups which gets billed as additional labor time. Like the replacing of an oil seal that another shop failed to replace twice and customer ran the mower until there was gas and oil from front to back which made a 30 minute into a 4 hour job. That customer was a little ill about the cost until I explained why the charges were what they were.
I don't usually charge for cutting my own lawn with the customer's mowers. It usually needs it considering it is 6 acres.
#10
StarTech
StarTech
So far of the 30+ camshaft replacements on 310000 and 330000 series I had only one stripped screw on the crankcase cover and that was found while doing the thread cleaning procedure so I installed a Heli-coil. That particular screw was also leaking prior to disassembly. And it is clean job and one someone else has already screwed up. But most clean repairs are usually close to book times for a good tech to do.
When you got to deal other techs and DIYers that don't what a torque wrench you are going to find things like this. And yes on rare occasions there will additional work to be done because of a factory screw up. The book time is only for actual camshaft replacement along with the simple engine removal. It is just a guideline but I do find to fairly close to what is needed when you got the proper tools and knowledge. Yes the inexperience will a lot longer but it is an incentive to get better.
Heck the first time removal the rear axle assembly from a Cam Am it took me over 4 hrs without a service manual but a week later it only took an hour to do the same thing as I had to re-clock the drive shafts. In the coming weeks I got a Kubota RTV that gets a new u-joint which will be fun without the special three point jack. (just waiting on the aftermarket parts) Even that will take less than half the time it did the first time. This is where experience pays off.
One of my peeves is techs using SAE in place of Metric fasteners or vice-versa making a heck of a mess at times. DIYers are the worst at this. Just dealt with a Briggs engine that someone ran the 10 mm Kawasaki crankshaft screw up into the 7/16 hole and cross thread the heck out of it. I got lucky on it as it every second thread that got screwed. I most didn't get the 10mm out due the dang red lock tight use on top of things. Yes I charge extra for fight that problem.
When you got to deal other techs and DIYers that don't what a torque wrench you are going to find things like this. And yes on rare occasions there will additional work to be done because of a factory screw up. The book time is only for actual camshaft replacement along with the simple engine removal. It is just a guideline but I do find to fairly close to what is needed when you got the proper tools and knowledge. Yes the inexperience will a lot longer but it is an incentive to get better.
Heck the first time removal the rear axle assembly from a Cam Am it took me over 4 hrs without a service manual but a week later it only took an hour to do the same thing as I had to re-clock the drive shafts. In the coming weeks I got a Kubota RTV that gets a new u-joint which will be fun without the special three point jack. (just waiting on the aftermarket parts) Even that will take less than half the time it did the first time. This is where experience pays off.
One of my peeves is techs using SAE in place of Metric fasteners or vice-versa making a heck of a mess at times. DIYers are the worst at this. Just dealt with a Briggs engine that someone ran the 10 mm Kawasaki crankshaft screw up into the 7/16 hole and cross thread the heck out of it. I got lucky on it as it every second thread that got screwed. I most didn't get the 10mm out due the dang red lock tight use on top of things. Yes I charge extra for fight that problem.
#11
B
bertsmobile1
I don't charge for mowing all my grass either but always list the testing on the bill and always test .
And my workshop is on 1000 acres of mixed farm
My "rent" includes mowing the verge, there is around 15 miles of it .
The workshop area is about 1 acre fenced off from the main farm and used to isolate stud animals .
I like to have one of the bulls in here as it tends to keep unwelcome people out.
First thing I try to do with a running mower is to do a test mow, because I will notice problems that the customer does not because they have been coming on slowly .
The first test happens when the mower is rolled off the trailer where I can determine the condition of the hydros & brakes .
Then it is about 1/2 hour to 1 hour of mowing do whatever needs to be done, another test mow and back to the customer .
One of the problems with factory type workshops is most don't have a test lawn or in many cases even some where that they can leave a mower running for an hour supervised , let alone a line trimer or blower .
Very hard to test "mower runs fine for 1/2 hour then bogs down in long grass" unless you can mow for 1/2 hour then hit some long grass .
While I agree the "Book" time is close the the actual spannar time I stand by my original post that it is not a true representation of billing hours .
For starters there is no "office time" included and we both know just how much time can be consumed just trying to find a part, let alone ordering it .
We have swing back blades down here and it is not uncommon to find a blade bolt stripped out to the point that the only way to remove it is to weld it to the blade to stop it turning.
Then you get rear wheels that have never been off in 5 years or more and are rusted solid onto the shaft, going to be more than the 3 minutes the book allows for it and on the subject of blade bolts, the bar blades that have been worn down to a stump, never removed and ends up needing to be cut off after spending a lot more time than the 2 minutes of allotted time to remove the blades .
B
bertsmobile1
Big Snip
When it comes to oils leaks there is usually extra time spent on cleanups which gets billed as additional labor time. Like the replacing of an oil seal that another shop failed to replace twice and customer ran the mower until there was gas and oil from front to back which made a 30 minute into a 4 hour job. That customer was a little ill about the cost until I explained why the charges were what they were.
I don't usually charge for cutting my own lawn with the customer's mowers. It usually needs it considering it is 6 acres.
I don't charge for mowing all my grass either but always list the testing on the bill and always test .
And my workshop is on 1000 acres of mixed farm
My "rent" includes mowing the verge, there is around 15 miles of it .
The workshop area is about 1 acre fenced off from the main farm and used to isolate stud animals .
I like to have one of the bulls in here as it tends to keep unwelcome people out.
First thing I try to do with a running mower is to do a test mow, because I will notice problems that the customer does not because they have been coming on slowly .
The first test happens when the mower is rolled off the trailer where I can determine the condition of the hydros & brakes .
Then it is about 1/2 hour to 1 hour of mowing do whatever needs to be done, another test mow and back to the customer .
One of the problems with factory type workshops is most don't have a test lawn or in many cases even some where that they can leave a mower running for an hour supervised , let alone a line trimer or blower .
Very hard to test "mower runs fine for 1/2 hour then bogs down in long grass" unless you can mow for 1/2 hour then hit some long grass .
While I agree the "Book" time is close the the actual spannar time I stand by my original post that it is not a true representation of billing hours .
For starters there is no "office time" included and we both know just how much time can be consumed just trying to find a part, let alone ordering it .
We have swing back blades down here and it is not uncommon to find a blade bolt stripped out to the point that the only way to remove it is to weld it to the blade to stop it turning.
Then you get rear wheels that have never been off in 5 years or more and are rusted solid onto the shaft, going to be more than the 3 minutes the book allows for it and on the subject of blade bolts, the bar blades that have been worn down to a stump, never removed and ends up needing to be cut off after spending a lot more time than the 2 minutes of allotted time to remove the blades .
#12
Scrubcadet10
Scrubcadet10
Pit or Bovine?I like to have one of the bulls in here as it tends to keep unwelcome people out.
#13
K
KevIsland
K
KevIsland
Thanks. I don't want to rip people off, but I need to raise my prices (rates). This job took me 2-3 hrs and parts $50-$60. I charge $50 hr. So I'm still pretty cheap, no wonder I'm still too busy to relax.
#14
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
FWIW in Aust $
I charge $ 60 / hr because I am mobile and have very little in the way of monetary overheads other than running the vehicle & insurances . I only do repairs
The nearest shop 3 miles away, charges $ 90 / hr . He owns his shop & lives behind so his fixed weekly outgoing are not particularly high either
He also sells new mowers so I send people with dead mowers to him to get a new one & he sends hopeless cases that are all hours down to me .
We don't actually get along but this informal arrangement is mutually beneficial .
10 miles away is the city
They have 4 glass front mower shops and 2 backyard mower repair workshops .
The glass fronts charge between $ 120 & $ 160 /hr. And $ 60 to $ 100 each way pick up & delivery , I do it for free.
They do not want to fix anything because they are all in rented workshops and the retail mark up on mowers down here is 100% .
Despite the fact that 99.9% of the land mass down here is empty , commercial rentals are rediculous so they will be paying anything up to $ 5000 / wk in rent and you could never meet those costs doing mainly repairs .
IF you are charging scheduled rate then you should be billing out near double those hours at your labour rate .
However make sure the invoice has some sort of break down so they don't see a 5 hour block of time for what looks like a simple a 2 hour job.
Don't know how transport fees are done in the USA but several shops will add a "Courier fee" of anything between $ 5 & $ 15 to any bill that has signifiacnt amount of parts included .
I once charged $ 140 to put a tube in the rear wheels of a Husky Rider 14 Pro
14 years old never had either one off and it was getting to the point I was considering taking the whole tranny out and putting it in the big press .
Over the few years I have been ding this what I have found works best is keeping the hourly rate low but building up the hours.
I the customer thinks you have spent 10 hours on the job the $ 500 is not unreasonable.
But if you show 5 hours then the customer will feel that $ 500 is being ripped off .
Also invoicing a lot of hours tends to make the customers understand long turn around times .
after adding a cleaning fee quite a few customers started presenting me with clean mowers .
And because they were cleaning them they noticed things going wrong earlier so send the mower to me more often.
I charge $ 60 / hr because I am mobile and have very little in the way of monetary overheads other than running the vehicle & insurances . I only do repairs
The nearest shop 3 miles away, charges $ 90 / hr . He owns his shop & lives behind so his fixed weekly outgoing are not particularly high either
He also sells new mowers so I send people with dead mowers to him to get a new one & he sends hopeless cases that are all hours down to me .
We don't actually get along but this informal arrangement is mutually beneficial .
10 miles away is the city
They have 4 glass front mower shops and 2 backyard mower repair workshops .
The glass fronts charge between $ 120 & $ 160 /hr. And $ 60 to $ 100 each way pick up & delivery , I do it for free.
They do not want to fix anything because they are all in rented workshops and the retail mark up on mowers down here is 100% .
Despite the fact that 99.9% of the land mass down here is empty , commercial rentals are rediculous so they will be paying anything up to $ 5000 / wk in rent and you could never meet those costs doing mainly repairs .
IF you are charging scheduled rate then you should be billing out near double those hours at your labour rate .
However make sure the invoice has some sort of break down so they don't see a 5 hour block of time for what looks like a simple a 2 hour job.
Don't know how transport fees are done in the USA but several shops will add a "Courier fee" of anything between $ 5 & $ 15 to any bill that has signifiacnt amount of parts included .
I once charged $ 140 to put a tube in the rear wheels of a Husky Rider 14 Pro
14 years old never had either one off and it was getting to the point I was considering taking the whole tranny out and putting it in the big press .
Over the few years I have been ding this what I have found works best is keeping the hourly rate low but building up the hours.
I the customer thinks you have spent 10 hours on the job the $ 500 is not unreasonable.
But if you show 5 hours then the customer will feel that $ 500 is being ripped off .
Also invoicing a lot of hours tends to make the customers understand long turn around times .
after adding a cleaning fee quite a few customers started presenting me with clean mowers .
And because they were cleaning them they noticed things going wrong earlier so send the mower to me more often.
#15
Hammermechanicman
$60 parts x 40% markup = $84
Total $234 plusr tax
Sounds reasonable to me.
Hammermechanicman
3 hr x $50 = $150 laborThanks. I don't want to rip people off, but I need to raise my prices (rates). This job took me 2-3 hrs and parts $50-$60. I charge $50 hr. So I'm still pretty cheap, no wonder I'm still too busy to relax.
$60 parts x 40% markup = $84
Total $234 plusr tax
Sounds reasonable to me.