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Battery issue - 03 Tiger Cub - 23hp Kawasaki

#1

skooter94

skooter94

So I have been having a few issues this summer. I believe I have a coil going bad. It looses power and comes back. When it is running normal I took the right spark plug cap off and it was doing the exactly the same thing. That's why I think that. Any chance that could be causing my battery to drain? I had it go dead on me so I bought a new one. ( It was pretty old anyways ). Something is still draining the battery. I can mow one yard go to the next and crank it and turn over a few times then nothing. I can jump it and it start up. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.


#2

M

mechanic mark

403 Forbiddenclick anyway

Page 58 is wiring schematic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLLH__bc6mw

"K&T Parts House Lawn Mower Parts and Chain Saw & Trimmer Parts" your engine manual is 12 down from top, go to electrical section 9, using a multi-meter tool diagnose problem per manual.


#3

Fish

Fish

The ignition coil and the charging system are totally different, and not related. Start with the engine's model-type numbers


#4

skooter94

skooter94

The mechanic at work thinks it might be the voltage regulator. Any chance that could be why I'm having the coil problem? Maybe it doesn't have enough volts to travel to the second coil?


#5

Fish

Fish

Huh? post your engine's model numbers...


#6

M

Mad Mackie

skooter94 said:
The mechanic at work thinks it might be the voltage regulator. Any chance that could be why I'm having the coil problem? Maybe it doesn't have enough volts to travel to the second coil?
Click to expand...

As Fish has already mentioned, TWO DIFFERENT SYSTEMS!!!! The engine ignition system makes it own electricity for spark as it turns over.
Please post your machine model and S/N or S/N series as in the first three numbers or a letter and three numbers.
Also need your engine model, type and code numbers. Kawasaki made 3,999 different 23 HP vertical shaft engines and then changed the HP ratings on some making more different engines!!!:laughing:


#7

skooter94

skooter94

Model STC 52A-23KA
Serial 9290312
Motor
FH68OV-BS32-R
Engine #
FH 68OVB3(or s not sure)0992


#8

M

Mad Mackie

Here is a link to where you can find the manual for your machine. The electrical schematic is on page 64 of the manual for your machine.
403 Forbidden Find your S/N range and click on manuals, it is a pdf download.
The engine ignition circuit is the white wire from the magneto wire in the Kawasaki adapter harness all the way to the key switch. With the key switch in the off position, the engine magneto coils are grounded so the engine will shut off and with the key switch in the on/start position this circuit is open to allow the engine to run. At the bottom of the wiring diagram, notice that there are two white wires, one to the key switch the other to the control module. This is the safety control for machine operation.
On the engine itself and not shown in the wiring diagram, is a "Y" harness that connects to each magneto coil of which there are two on your engine. Wired into this harness in each leg of the Y is a diode which prevents magneto electrical backfeed from going to either magneto/ignition coil so the engine can be shut off with a single contact in the key switch.
The flywheel on the engine contains two separate sets of magnets, the outer set, just two small magnets are for magneto magnetic flux and spark timing. These magnets can be easily seen with the blower cover removed from the engine.
The other set of magnets are located in the under side of the flywheel and are installed in a circle. Inside this circle of magnets and attached to the top of the engine is another unit called a stator. As the flywheel magnets pass around the stator, it puts out alternating current, AC. The output of the stator( two wires in a plug) is connected to the input of a regulator rectifier. The R/R blocks the portion of the AC that is the wrong polarity and allows the correct portion the be regulated and then passes to the single output wire. This wire is the yellow one that goes to the 20 AMP fuse, and on to the key switch. When the key switch is in the on position, the charging system output is connected to the red wire and will feed/charge the electrical system/battery.
When the key switch is in the off position, the charging system output circuit is open so battery power will not backfeed thru the regulator and drain the battery when the engine is not running.
Time for another adult beverage!!!:thumbsup:
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:


#9

skooter94

skooter94

Mad Mackie said:
Here is a link to where you can find the manual for your machine. The electrical schematic is on page 64 of the manual for your machine.
403 Forbidden Find your S/N range and click on manuals, it is a pdf download.
The engine ignition circuit is the white wire from the magneto wire in the Kawasaki adapter harness all the way to the key switch. With the key switch in the off position, the engine magneto coils are grounded so the engine will shut off and with the key switch in the on/start position this circuit is open to allow the engine to run. At the bottom of the wiring diagram, notice that there are two white wires, one to the key switch the other to the control module. This is the safety control for machine operation.
On the engine itself and not shown in the wiring diagram, is a "Y" harness that connects to each magneto coil of which there are two on your engine. Wired into this harness in each leg of the Y is a diode which prevents magneto electrical backfeed from going to either magneto/ignition coil so the engine can be shut off with a single contact in the key switch.
The flywheel on the engine contains two separate sets of magnets, the outer set, just two small magnets are for magneto magnetic flux and spark timing. These magnets can be easily seen with the blower cover removed from the engine.
The other set of magnets are located in the under side of the flywheel and are installed in a circle. Inside this circle of magnets and attached to the top of the engine is another unit called a stator. As the flywheel magnets pass around the stator, it puts out alternating current, AC. The output of the stator( two wires in a plug) is connected to the input of a regulator rectifier. The R/R blocks the portion of the AC that is the wrong polarity and allows the correct portion the be regulated and then passes to the single output wire. This wire is the yellow one that goes to the 20 AMP fuse, and on to the key switch. When the key switch is in the on position, the charging system output is connected to the red wire and will feed/charge the electrical system/battery.
When the key switch is in the off position, the charging system output circuit is open so battery power will not backfeed thru the regulator and drain the battery when the engine is not running.
Time for another adult beverage!!!:thumbsup:
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:
Click to expand...

Wow that's a lot of info. So are you saying I should check the wires to make sure there's not a broken one?


#10

M

Mad Mackie

My intent was to give you some basic info about your machine and where you can find the manuals. You need to find someone experienced with power equipment and DC electricity to troubleshoot your machine.
The Kawasaki engine on your machine has been discontinued by Kawasaki and the manual is no longer available on the kawpower site. Manuals are available on line, just need to search some for them.
I have replaced ignition coils on several older Kawasaki twin engines for customers. Kawasaki has upgraded these coils several times over the years as indicated by part number changes. But a proper diagnosis of the engine itself, ignition and charging systems is needed.


#11

skooter94

skooter94

So last week I bought new coils, that took care of one problem. I bought a new battery and a voltage regulator. So I mowed Tue, Wed, Thurs about 2 hrs each day. I went to load up the mower tonight and the battery was dead again. Any other ideas?


#12

S

SeniorCitizen

Check the battery voltage before and after starting. If the charging circuit is working your DC Volt meter should read around 13.5 volts, possibly plus, across the battery posts with the engine running half to full throttle. When finished mowing and you park it for a length of time disconnect the negative battery cable that you used to connect with a small C-Clamp. Run it like that until you wear it out or trade it for a better one.


#13

skooter94

skooter94

I did trade the battery all ready. I bought one and it went dead. Had it checked and it said to replace. Had it about a week and a half. Traded it and replaced the voltage regulator. It's a mid grade battery.


#14

M

motoman

If you have a meter DVM put into "current" set up (move one wire jack to the indicated socket-meter manual will show how). Do the simple battery drain test by disconnecting the neg bat cable and hooking the DVM (in series) between the neg bat post and the loosened neg bat cable. DVM set on milliamps. Key off. Observe any "drain" current on DVM. Don't think you should see current (pros chime in pls). A reading indicates something is allowing current to flow and we know how even a very small amount (think glove box lamp) will pull down a battery. If so, the harder part begins, looking for a bad/intermittent switch/component that is drawing current when it should not.


#15

S

SeniorCitizen

A bad diode in a mid 1980s GM alternator will drain a battery. Don't know for sure about Kaws but a diodes purpose to deter reverse current flow.


#16

S

SeniorCitizen

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


#17

skooter94

skooter94

I charged the battery fully and with it running it was reading 12.3 volts and the voltage regulator was putting out 14.2. What do you guys think about maybe the switch is draining the battery?


#18

M

Mad Mackie

Check the voltage across the battery with the engine running at 3/4 to full throttle, it should be more like what the regulator is putting out. With the engine off, a quick system check is to unplug the regulator output and check voltage from it to ground, first key off, should be zero volts, then key on, should be same as battery voltage. Have you checked the charging system fuse? The one in the yellow wire at the fuse holder. Do you have the wiring diagram for your machine?


#19

skooter94

skooter94

I do have a diagram. I will check that fuse tomorrow


#20

M

Mad Mackie

Charging system positive output travels a long ways before it arrives at the battery. Follow me on this:
With a running engine, the regulator output goes to the engine harness adapter which connects to the machine harness, then to the fuse with the yellow wire, to the keyswitch. There is passes thru contacts in the keyswitch while in the run position, back out thru the fuse in the red wire back thru the engine harness adapter and then to the positive terminal on the engine cranking solenoid, be the solenoid engine mounted or separately located and then into the large battery cable and into the battery.
Anything in this path can cause problems, the keyswitch itself, connector plugs, terminals and poor ground connections.
Mad Mackie in CT


#21

M

motoman

scooter. Mackie , I think, has described "current" which moves (voltage does not). So the drain check above will report on problems along the path. Perhaps careful removal of the switch and "beeb" checks or resistance checks while wiggling the key on the positions. Switches have contacts which wear down and can get sloppy. Corrosion can produce conductor paths where you do not want them...top of battery or bracket. Hour meter stuck on etc.


#22

skooter94

skooter94

Something new happened tonight. First a little background. I mow on the side after work. I spread them out over 3 nights because of my kids sports. So Tue, after I charged the battery I mowed for about 1 1/2. Wed was about a hour. Tonight it fired right up pulled it and had a flat tire. So I pulled it around to the garage to fix. After the tire went to start it and it gave me a one click sound and nothing. Turned the key about 5 times, same thing everytime then it turned over and started. So here's where the weird part comes in. Mowed about 1:10 and it died like I just turned the key off. Turn the key and the only noise came from the relay under the key. It was a buzzing sound when the key was in start postion. I took a battery out of my neighbors mower and hooked it up and it fired right up and I finished mowing about another 35 minutes. So could there be s problem with the starter and maybe it's draining the battery or maybe that relay? I really have had enough of this.


#23

skooter94

skooter94

I tested the battery this morning. 12.13 and only 65 cca. It's rated at 230cca. So I'm thinking it's something in the switch our starter. Anybody have a thought on that?


#24

skooter94

skooter94

The mechanic at the repair shop said he would bet money that it's the switch. So I bought a new one, we'll see how it goes. Probably won't do any mowjng next week because of how dry it is.


#25

skooter94

skooter94

Re: Battery issue - 03 Tiger Cub - 23hp Kawasaki UPDATE!

So it's been 10 days since I replaced the switch. I have not touched it and went out this evening and it fired up no problem. Hope this helps someone else.


#26

skooter94

skooter94

Believe it or not I still have a problem. Mowed Tue for a hour, Wed for 45 min then went to unload it at home and the battery was dead. One thing I did notice was when I turned the key there is like a 2 to 3 second delay before the motor turns over. I am at a lost again.


#27

skooter94

skooter94

I mowed a couple of days last week and when I parked it I unhooked the battery. Went to start it tonight and it was dead. What could be killing it while I'm mowing?


#28

M

motoman

My craftsman has an ammeter and will swing between about 5 amp discharge and 10 amp charge. Who knows how accurate that is, but it gives some indication of current usage. How long do you mow-hours??? Experts must chime in here, but unless you are running headlights (you got 'em?) I can only think of an electric clutch on mine that would demand current. I do not know if the clutch demands current at all time to remain engaged. Something is drawing down your bats and it is time/load related. But a new battery should be recoverable. Get and use a battery hydrometer frequently-very cheap and useful. You still have not performed the bat drain test? Senior is right about the rectifier diodes. They clip half the wave coming off the alternator so that the bat sees only DV voltage. Someone must confirm that the other portion the wave is counter productive-seems like it would be.


#29

skooter94

skooter94

I haven't been able to check anything else yet. I have no lights. To be honest I'm not very good on electrical issues but I'm trying. The hour vary when it acts up like tonight. Fully charged battery, mowed 3 yards for about 1:45. Came home to now mine and click. Here's the weird part, I jumped it and started mowing. It went to die and I shut the PTO off and it stayed running. Try to to turn it back on and nothing. Got a bettery from my neighbor and it started and the PTO engaged perfect. Everyone I talk to say they have never heard of something like this.


#30

M

Mad Mackie

Charging/electrical system problem, It needs to be checked out.


#31

M

motoman

Scooter. I like your determination, but you need some electrical checks. On cars sometimes a running electrical check can be made on components . A fuel pump draws a known amount of current . The one I once checked with an ammeter drew 8 amps which was near the limit of the DVM. If someone knows what the PTO (electrical clutch) draws to lock up and then hold seems like a check could be made. Or a substitute clutch installed (tedious on my Intek). I am the limit of experience on this. It may be time to either substitute a part (without buying it-fat chance:smile:) or find a knowledgable shop.


#32

skooter94

skooter94

Yes I think it's time to take it to a shop. I was really going someone might have had something similar happen


#33

skooter94

skooter94

Ok guys, had a chance to do a little more testing. So here are the results
Battery charged, non running
13.03 volts
Battery running
12.63
Voltage Regulator
left prong
-8.86 to -9.00
Middle prong
-9.89 to -10.03
Right prong
-9.81 to 10.01
That would be looking at it from like the seat area.
What's the chance I got a bad Voltage Regulator? I remember checking it after I got it and it was around 14 if I remember right.
This was done at idle also.
Please anymore ideas would be great. I really don't want to take it to the shop at $70 a hour.


#34

M

mechanic mark

Lawn Mower Parts, Small Engine Parts & Much More! | PartsTree.com - Briggs, MTD, Toro, Cub Cadet, Husqvarna, Troy-bilt... You need to replace charging coil under flywheel, instructions are in manual that I posted earlier, part # 59031, also referred to as alternator. If you have a multimeter check it out before ordering, a battery is just for cranking purposes, whereas a charging coil/alternator keeps battery fully charged and electrical system up and running. Start at page 9-14 for testing of charging coil, voltage regulator, etc. Let us know how it works out, thanks, MERRY CHRISTMAS.


#35

skooter94

skooter94

mechanic mark said:
Lawn Mower Parts, Small Engine Parts & Much More! | PartsTree.com - Briggs, MTD, Toro, Cub Cadet, Husqvarna, Troy-bilt... You need to replace charging coil under flywheel, instructions are in manual that I posted earlier, part # 59031, also referred to as alternator. If you have a multimeter check it out before ordering, a battery is just for cranking purposes, whereas a charging coil/alternator keeps battery fully charged and electrical system up and running. Start at page 9-14 for testing of charging coil, voltage regulator, etc. Let us know how it works out, thanks, MERRY CHRISTMAS.
Click to expand...


So here is how I tested the charging coil/stator, if it's not right please let me know. I took the prongs on the voltmeter and pushed through the insulation before the voltage regulator and still got a negative reading. Then I unplugged the wires and checked them unplugged and got a 0 reading on it. I think I'm getting closer


#36

M

mechanic mark

skooter94 said:
So here is how I tested the charging coil/stator, if it's not right please let me know. I took the prongs on the voltmeter and pushed through the insulation before the voltage regulator and still got a negative reading. Then I unplugged the wires and checked them unplugged and got a 0 reading on it. I think I'm getting closer
Click to expand...
"K&T Parts House Lawn Mower Parts and Chain Saw & Trimmer Parts" Your engine is FH680V twelve down, follow instructions & go for it, let us know how it goes, thanks.


#37

skooter94

skooter94

Alright guys, I bought a new stator or how Kawasaki says it, it's a charging coil. I think this going to fix it. The guy at the shop said when my seal was leaking it coated the stator and it fries it when they heat up. I will give another update in a few weeks when I start mowing.


#38

B

bertsmobile1

Charging coils come in a few variations.
This to accomodate the different electrical loads applied by the mower.
If you motor was changed out & you have one from a mower with a manual PTO (Lever not a switch ) the charging coils will not be able to cope with the load applied by the electic PTO so as you are mowing the battery will slowly drain.

Next, some lower output charging coils will require any thing up to 2 hours of continious full speed running to recover the power the starter used starting the mower.

Another thing to remember is the mower engine must always be running at WFO speeds to effectively recharge the battery.
I had a customer who was gobbleing up a battery every season. Reason was the mower went too fast for him so he ran it at 1/2 throttle so it was never fully recharging the battery.
I adjusted the seat so he was more solidly seated then adjusted the control levers to their least sensative position and problem solved.
Seems a common predelivery around here to set the control levers to the most sensitive position & adjust the mower to go maximum speed, perhaps the mechanics do drags at lunchtime.
This is quite daunting especially to owners new to ZTR's or that machine, They also seem to set the seat height for Harlem Gloetrotters so the owner is sitting there with 10" between his feet and the foot board.


#39

skooter94

skooter94

Well the stator didn't work. Mowed somewhere around 3 hours and it died. So here is what I now have found. With it running wide open, the voltage regulator is around -15 to -19. I unhooked the stator wires and they read 0. Could I have gotten a bad stator or voltage regulator? So bummed. Thought I had it.


#40

B

bertsmobile1

When you check the alternator voltage it must be in circuit ie connected to the mower .
When you check the resistance Ω on the alternator it must be disconnected.
So a 0 reading when unplugged is correct.
with the mower running you test the voltage between the two same colours wires going into the rectifier and it should be some where between 18 & 30 Volts AC ( check your specs )
With the unit still plugged in you take a voltage rading from the single red ( usually) wire to earth and you should get 13 to 18 V DC

Now get some one to sit in the seat and chack the readings again with the blades engaged, if either of these two readings drop more than 10% then you have too much current ( amps ) draw so either the regulator or alternator is not puttng in enough power or the clutch is drawing too much power.

I use an old car ammeter +/- 30A with two long wire fitted with spade terminals.
I slip out the fuse & connect the meter into the fuse holder.
If the meter does not show a + reading, swap the wires over.
Next connect the pto lights or what evr else you are testing and the ampmeter should show a lower but still + reading .
If not then the device is drawing more power than the engine can make


#41

skooter94

skooter94

So here it what I have found. Running wide open the battery is 12.6. The regulator is left lead ( stator) -20.6, center ( stator) -.25, Right lead -.25. Unhooked the power wire back to battery and the battery didn't change. With the blades on it still close to the same. So here's anther kicker to it, I was mowing this week and it died as it always does after a few hours, I swapped out the battery and continued mowing. When I was done mowing check the readings with that battery and the same readings, but the battery I took out when it quit still red 12.4 volts. So is it killing the amps and there is not enough to run. I've to the shop numerous times and it's the same thing, keep checking this and that. They told me if the battery didn't drop when I unhooked the power from the regulator it is something one the motor, but now with that battery still showing 12.4 I'm not sure what to do.


#42

M

motoman

skooter, People keep answering you because you are trying. You are a victim of a gremlin which all tinkerers experience AND which has caused tinkerers to shotgun parts purchases out of frustration. I reread this thread. You still have not done the simple current drain check (key off)?? You have not mentioned using a battery hydrometer . They are only $3 and will give you an extra piece of information about your battery condition (caps must unscrew for access to electrolyte fluid). It may be time to start unbundling and cleaning all the wiring for a visual inspection. Look for worn insulation, shiny spots, loose connectors. Crud that can drain voltage to ground, Battery must not have corrosion on top, Battery hold downs must not be corroded. I make mine out of plastic. Things move around under vibration and heat. Things open up also. At this point shift your suspicions to "passive " elements like contacts and insulation. Some one suggested diodes. Your DMV can check them with power off. You may need to pull info down so you can recognize them. Remember many shop techs also have major difficuly with gremiins.


#43

skooter94

skooter94

So I did some more checking. I found a white wire in the harness that in the book says it goes to the magneto, it is pulling 38 volts. So is it pulling more than the stator can keep up and that's why the regulator is showing -25? This may be a dumb question but is a magneto a coil?


#44

M

Mad Mackie

scooter94,
Yesterday was the 5th month since your original post and the 5th page on this thread!
You need to get your machine to a Scag qualified servicing dealer and get this machine properly repaired!!!!!
It is time to fish or cut bait!!!


#45

skooter94

skooter94

Re: Battery issue - 03 Tiger Cub - 23hp Kawasaki. FIXED!

So I figured it out. Pretty simple, it was the fuse. It looked good but I never tested it until today. So I wasted the money on the key but the stator I'm saying was previtive because of the oil on it from the leak I think it was only a matter of time before our cooked. So, I do hope this may help someone else as I have learned alot. Thanks everyone


#46

M

MontecarloSS

As I was taught to fix electrical problems, Check everything never assume it looks good.:wink:


#47

D

dmaj71

skooter94 said:
So I have been having a few issues this summer. I believe I have a coil going bad. It looses power and comes back. When it is running normal I took the right spark plug cap off and it was doing the exactly the same thing. That's why I think that. Any chance that could be causing my battery to drain? I had it go dead on me so I bought a new one. ( It was pretty old anyways ). Something is still draining the battery. I can mow one yard go to the next and crank it and turn over a few times then nothing. I can jump it and it start up. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
Click to expand...

I have the same problem. same mower. I bought a new battery last month,mowed like four times and now the battery has diminished to not starting the mower. I can jump it or just let it stand hooked to 12 volt battery,.It will run and mow fine until I shut it off.


#48

NorthBama

NorthBama

Go back to page 1 2nd post and watch the video that Mark so kindly posted


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