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Greetings,

I have a B&S 18hp V-twin model 350447 type 1116-E1 code 00021111. This is stuffed into a Toro Sandpro 5020. There is very little room to remove the starter bolts. Along the way someone used the wrong bolts stripping the starter mounting threads on the engine. I am going to try to use a helicoil to fix these threads and have ordered new factory bolts and a new factory starter.

Here is my issue:

In the parts manual that I have for this engine it states that both the starter bolts have the same part number 805247. Which I ordered 2. The factory starter that I ordered has a new number 691564. I do not understand how this engine can take the same bolts here as the depth of one of the mounting holes is deeper than the other. It is hard to tell if someone has broken a bolt off inside one of the holes? The last thing I want to do is drill because I assume there is a broken bolt then drill into the engine itself. It does not appear to be broken inside. So I wanted to check with the pros here. Possibly the new bolts are both just really short? There is also a mounting hole that is below the one that the current starter was attached to. This hole is also not as deep as the top one. Did someone use the wrong starter and does the right starter mount to this hole?

The second picture is the depth of the top starter hole. The third picture is the depth of the bottom starter hole. (where this starter was mounted)

Well here is another thing added to the puzzle. Talking to the owner apparently along the way it was discovered that the wrong engine cover was used on this machine. IT is apparently possibly a 16hp v-twin B&S engine? Unknown type-code. This had been discovered during a previous tear down. The serial numbers that were used for parts was 303447-1233-E1. Not sure if this is correct or not? Is there a place on the block that the right numbers can be found? There is not any numbers on the valve covers.

The starter bolts and the starter seems to have the same part numbers for both engines that I listed. I have threaded a helicoil approximately 90% into the bottom hole so hopefully it will hold.

Here is the starter 691564, is this what you got?

Fish said:

Here is the starter 691564, is this what you got?

View attachment 45665

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Yes that is the one that I ordered from my B&S dealer. Not sure if that is the exact one that came off of here? If you have one could you measure between the bolt holes to see where it mounts to my block.

What exactly is the problem that you are having? The holes don't line up? Or just that you noticed that one of the holes is deeper? Have you just tried mounting the starter?

The screws can should be able to snug up by hand, and you will see that all is well, and then snug up the bolts with a wrench.

Fish said:

What exactly is the problem that you are having? The holes don't line up? Or just that you noticed that one of the holes is deeper? Have you just tried mounting the starter?

The screws can should be able to snug up by hand, and you will see that all is well, and then snug up the bolts with a wrench.

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Here is the problem,

1. I just found out someone used the wrong cover on this engine so the numbers are unknown. Is there a number on the block for identification to retrieve the correct parts? There is no number on the valve cover.
2. Being that it is the wrong cover I believe that the wrong bolts and starter may have been used originally stripping the holes. I ordered new bolts and starter from B&S but unsure if I purchased the right ones because I used the numbers on the engine that says 18hp but owner says it is 16hp. I have another engine (303447-1233-e1) that is similar B&S that take the same starter bolts and starter which I ordered.
3. The lower starter bolt hole does not have much thread on this engine I was able to get a helicoil about 90% in so I guess that's OK?

These must be really short bolts from B&S to mount this starter.

Thanks for your reply
Sean

The original engine used in that sandpro was 350447-0116-E1
Per Small engine wharehouse.

Scrubcadet10 said:

The original engine used in that sandpro was 350447-0116-E1
Per Small engine wharehouse.

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Yes, Thank you for your reply. I believe from what I was told is that somewhere along the way someone took the shroud from that engine and put it on this one. I guess this was found out when the engine went for a rebuild the pistons measured 2.679" which is 16hp apparently and 18hp measures 2.836". This I was told and there is a note on it in the book.

Also It has a steel ring gear. Once again the starter I ordered (691564) along with the bolts (805247) was for 350447-0116-E1 the engine that was supposed to be in this machine that I thought was until this morning. Not sure if those will work on this block ring gear or not?

There is also the possibility that someone put the wrong ring gear on this engine as well. The engine had been out a few times in the notes that I have and this starter has been an ongoing issue for a while now (years according to what I'm told)). I want it all to be right before reinstalling it.

So if anyone knows where there may be numbers on the block so I can get the proper starter, starter bolts and possibly ring gear for this engine that would be great.

is this not the original engine on the piece of equipment?

Scrubcadet10 said:

is this not the original engine on the piece of equipment?

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I am told it is not because when it went out for a rebuild the pistons measured a different size than an 18hp. They measured 2.679 In the notes to 2.836 for 18hp. So what I was told was the shrouds from the original engine were put on this block. Is there a number on the block somewhere to confirm this?

Okay, gotcha.
I don't think Briggs marks the blocks.
You might can take some pictures of it, and send them to briggs along with what's happening, and they might can point you in The Right direction

Scrubcadet10 said:

Okay, gotcha.
I don't think Briggs marks the blocks.
You might can take some pictures of it, and send them to briggs along with what's happening, and they might can point you in The Right direction

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Thanks for the info, The only numbers I found on the block were 5DBS-002 and this was on the block under the crank on the side with the ring gear.

Note there are two different starters used on these engines
The one with the cast end uses long bolts & the one with the steel end uses short bolts.
Get a magnet & pop it in the holes
To me it looks like there is a broken off bolt down at least one.
Starter bolt s are usually around the 2" mark because there is a lot of torque on the starter.

If that was in my shop, it would be off to a specialist brolen bolt removing workshop with an electro errosion machine to have the broken off piece removed
Down here they sting you $ 90 each, but it is actually a lot cheaper than trying to cut one out, breaking 3 drills and 2 eazy outs.
The depth that screw driver is in will not be sufficient to hold a starter.

Great idea on the magnet!. Yes a concern of mine is there is not enough meat to hold this starter in place. Which seemed to be an ongoing issue for this engine according to the owner. Problems arise when others have been into things multiple times and switched stuff.

I know there is a starter with a plastic gear drive that matches with an aluminum ring gear and a starter with a steel gear drive that matches with the aluminum ring gear for B&S V-twins. Not sure which one this engine / block is supposed to have.

Interesting info on the length of bolts for both starters. I have some old ones sitting around and the one with the plastic drive gear has the cast end and the starter with the steel drive gear has the steel mounting flange.

The bolts used to hold the starters in does not change with the type of drive gear.
The drive gears are mostly interchangable so you just swap over a plastic one for an alloy one.
Only thing to be careful with is the pitch on the teeth there are 2 pitches and the starter will jamb if the flywheel pitch & the starter pitch are not matched.

Thanks for all your help and advise,

In a best case scenario I should have sent this out to see if a bolt was broken off deep in the hole and have it professionally removed. With the hours on this engine and being that I have another good running spare if needed I decided to just drill it out and helicoil the threads. I purchased 2 new B&S starter bolts 692062 (these did not have torx holes on the head) along with a B&S starter 691564

I measured the bolts and the depths of the screw and ended cutting the lower bolt about 1/8. I added lockwashers so hopefully it will not loosen. I marked the bolt locations to also see if they loosen. Ran the starter a few times and it seems to be good.

I will also be purchasing one of those B&S swivel sockets for the top bolt for ease of use next time. If anyone has a part number or a reference online that would be great. I believe by not using the swivel socket that is how this whole problem of stripped bolt holes in the block came about from the previous owner.

Sean

The B&S socket looks like 1 regular U joint socket over priced.
Look into these, https://www.autozone.com/ratchets-sockets-and-wrenches/universal-joint-socket

Or depending on where the bolt is, use an open end wrench, you'll need patience, but it can be done

Scrubcadet10 said:

The B&S socket looks like 1 regular U joint socket over priced.
Look into these, https://www.autozone.com/ratchets-sockets-and-wrenches/universal-joint-socket

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If I remember correctly it is a Snap-on branded 13 mm 1/4 inch drive universal joint socket.

There is no reason not to fit an standard allen bolt to the front hole.
The allan bolt will be a lot cheaper than buying a special tool and also makes it easy to replace as the bolt as it will happily sit on the end of a key where as with the uni joint the bolt has to be started by hand.
It always amazed me that Briggs persisted with the plain head bolt then finally got a torx slot stamped into it when they could have shifted to Allan bolts