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So, a friend of a friend, has this old Heald Hauler that they got NOT in a running condition. They run a youth recovery ranch (charity work) and my work is a freebie. They are paying for parts but that's all.

OK, when I started going over the vehicle it became obvious this has been abused and neglected for some time. I won't go over all the details, but will get to the crux of this post. When I got around to firing up the engine, I noticed it is VERY hard to get started, but even then the firing is VERY erratic. Looking at the magneto I see the wire that would normally go to the points, is instead wired directly to the ignition switch. The only other wire off the magneto goes to the spark plug.

The wiring diagram that came with the vehicle, shows a set of points, the Chilton manual for that series engine shows points, but there are NO points I can find ANYWHERE on this engine. The magneto sits just above the flywheel, and there is a magnet in the flywheel for coil induction, but no points.

I pulled the flywheel expecting them inside, but nothing but the alternator stator is mounted to the engine block. The rotor magnets for the alternator are inside the flywheel drum itself.

According to the Chilton manual they could also be outside, actuated by a cam driven rod. The only opening in the area they show, is the adjustment window for the valves (side valve engine). Talking this over with everyone I know locally, the only possibility, is it might be electronic ignition, and no points, BUT there is no circuit board either.

I have all the numbers from the engine and will post them here. I am wondering if anyone has ANYTHING that might help me get this old beast going?

The engine is a Briggs and Stratton, 11HP, horizontal shaft. It looks like there might be some sort of gear reduction on the output side, before it gets to the torque converter drive.

The numbers are as follows

model
232417

type
0215-01

code
79120411

Thanks

:smile: Check those engine numbers again. As my book does not show those numbers. With the SN: being 79, it is a points engine.

Looks like you must have module type coil and no ignition points. Sounds like you must have spark seeing it will start. Start with
your other items, compression, timing and fuel. I would go in that order because you might have valve problems???

The engine may have been originally a point type engine, but if the ignition module has been changed, it could of been upgraded to a Magnetron type ignition which eliminates the points.

It has not been upgraded, at least as I can tell. According to the chilton manual, nothing looks remotely like the magnatron setup.

It get spark but weak and almost continous. I checked that before tearing into anything. The prev owner never got it running and I suspect they removed the points and wired past them. It firest about 1/5 as often as it should when it did run.

Compression isn't super high, have not used gauge yet but I doubt that's this engines MAIN problem.

Buckshot
which numbers do not show up?

As for timing I was under the impression, you needed point to time the engine, no? It has a small plug where the plunger for the points would normally come out.

Renoldston
what is a module type coil? Thanks for the info so far guys. I will keep diggging.

OK I did re-check the numbers, and it appears the first 2 digits in the M# are 25, not 23. It's hard to tell cause they are rusted over right at that spot. My brother in law just stopped by and he feels it doesn't need points. There is a magnet on the outside of the rotor, and a pick-up point on the magneto coil that sits above it. my concern is there is no adjustment horizontally for timing, only vertical adjustment of the magneto coil.

The coil is wired so that it receives 12v to the primary coil continuously. Is there something inside the magneto coil that the rotor magnet triggers to release power to the secondary side? Otherwise the secondary always has power too. Which this makes sense, cause the spark I get, is not a timed spark like I am used to seeing, but almost continuous. It does appear to get stronger when the magnet comes up, but still sparks.

Like I mentioned, there is no accommodation for external points, as they are cam driven and no openings are there for that. The Magnatron systems have a lot more parts on the crank than this has as well. Sorry for the lame description, but I didn't look for the parts names, since the parts were not there.

first thing is if you have 12v to the small wire coming off the to coil (ignition module) is toast. the small wire should be connected to the M terminal on the key switch, which should go to ground when the key is turned off. The Magnetron ignition is a self contained electronic ignition module so there is no other circuit board. I have on more than one occasion when a point engine has a badly corroded ignition module that I know is bad, is unbolt the module and jerk the wire out of the points and replace with the magnetron unit, which if this was a point engine somebody could of removed the points in install a magnetron module in place of the point type module.

Just remember if you are reading 12v at the module at any time, then the module is toast and you also have a key switch problem to go with it.

ILENGINE said:

first thing is if you have 12v to the small wire coming off the to coil (ignition module) is toast. the small wire should be connected to the M terminal on the key switch, which should go to ground when the key is turned off. The Magnetron ignition is a self contained electronic ignition module so there is no other circuit board. I have on more than one occasion when a point engine has a badly corroded ignition module that I know is bad, is unbolt the module and jerk the wire out of the points and replace with the magnetron unit, which if this was a point engine somebody could of removed the points in install a magnetron module in place of the point type module.

Just remember if you are reading 12v at the module at any time, then the module is toast and you also have a key switch problem to go with it.

Click to expand...

OK I found this web site The Magnetron Ignition System that helps me understand it a little better. I know the coil has two wires (3 actually if you count the plug wire) that both appear to come off the same spade connector, and both of these were wired to the ign switch. I will check to see if there is 12v to them, I have not done that as I would have expected to find 12v coming from the ign switch, but I see what you are saying about the grounding. I assume THAT is what kills the engine?

If you watch the little tutorial I linked to, it shows only a wire to the top of the plug and a smaller wire, that LOOKS like it is supposed to be a ground. The ign switch is cruded up pretty badly, so I will have to clean it to see if it's labeled "M" at that terminal.

So is there no adjustment for spark timing on this? As mentioned earlier, there doesn't appear to be any lateral adjustment on the slots of the coil, only vertical. While I am on the subject of the coil, should the coil/rotor gap be about .008-.010" on a magnatron unit? Assuming that is what this is.

A module type coil is a electronic coil that picks up off a magnet instead of ignition points. Ilengine is right about burning the coil if 12 volts positive gos to it. that wire turns off the engine when it is runing from negetive not postive.

reynoldston said:

A module type coil is a electronic coil that picks up off a magnet instead of ignition points. Ilengine is right about burning the coil if 12 volts positive gos to it. that wire turns off the engine when it is runing from negetive not postive.

Click to expand...

That part makes sense now, I need to see if it ever gets 12v, most likely NOT if this IS a magnatron coil. According to the little tutorial it shows a schematic that has the second wire grounded. I assume from what you guys are saying the wire ONLY grounds when you are shutting the engine OFF.

I will check to see if the switch connection goes to ground.

Hopefully that is what this system is, then i can look for other issues. The rotor needed pulling anyway cause there was so much crud in the alternator it might have broken a wire from spinning all the junk around.

The good news is there isn't any backfiring or spitting out the carb, so most likely the valves are not far off, but I can check that. This carb looks like it was made in the 30's. I saw better designs on flat head v8's.

OK I checked and the wire that goes from the coil to the ign switch DOES connect at the "M" terminal. It does not show continuity to ground though when the switch is turned off, but as long as it shuts the engine down and does not give 12v I assume it's good?

Thanks all for the education. Now to figure out the erratic running issue(s).

:smile: Even changing the MN: to 252417, did not show up on my list. Trying setting the air gap on the magtron to .012.

Setting the armature air gap to .012 will retard the spark which will delay the spark. I will set the air gap at .009-.010. I'm having trouble with the model numbers you posted. The closest model I can come up with is, 252417-0215-99. Below is a manual for that engine.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12502267/B&S Service Manuals/01_270962SingleCylinderLHead.pdf

Well, I already set it at .010" and this thing is set up so that it's kinda a PITA to get to the armature. The battery sits right next to the engine and the battery box is welded in place. I had to cut the welds to remove, and re-welded it :ashamed: so if it has to be adjusted,,, well you get that picture.:laughing:

The good news is, it fired right up! I had gone through the jets and cleared them, and set according to starting specs. Once running I tuned them up to best running, and it runs like a charm.

I did re-do the wiring to the armature though, made it look a little better. There really isn't a great place to run the wire without the possibility of getting it into the rotor, so it goes in the top.

Now to get to those horribly rusted brake lines! Those suckers are REALLY rusted. Most likely they will all have to be replaced.

:smile: handirife, glad to hear you solved the problem. Rivets, I set all of mine to .012 and never had a problem. They all start easy.

I never knew with the coil air gap a few .001 difference would effect the way a engine would run? I just use a business card and would bet
that no two cards are that close in thickness when it comes to measuring in .001. I am going to make a guess that any where from .006 to .020
isn't going to make much difference on how the engine runs. The only thing it does is change the timing and I don't think by much. I have
never did this, but maybe some day I will take a timing light and play with this and see for myself or has someone did this on this forum done this or knows
for sure??

reynoldston said:

I never knew with the coil air gap a few .001 difference would effect the way a engine would run? I just use a business card and would bet
that no two cards are that close in thickness when it comes to measuring in .001. I am going to make a guess that any where from .006 to .020
isn't going to make much difference on how the engine runs. The only thing it does is change the timing and I don't think by much. I have
never did this, but maybe some day I will take a timing light and play with this and see for myself or has someone did this on this forum done this or knows
for sure??

Click to expand...

Had a MTD pusher with the MTD china engine in a couple of years ago that was rope and electric start. It mower would rope start on the first pull, but no matter how much you cranked the engine with the electric it wouldn't start. Didn't matter if the engine was warm or not. The gap is .008-.016. Had to change the gap a thousandth at a time to finally get it to start with the electric. If would start at .012, but not .011 or .013.

Tried changing carbs, ignition modules, making sure the battery was fully charged, but nothing would fix it other than playing with the armature gap.

ILENGINE said:

Had a MTD pusher with the MTD china engine in a couple of years ago that was rope and electric start. It mower would rope start on the first pull, but no matter how much you cranked the engine with the electric it wouldn't start. Didn't matter if the engine was warm or not. The gap is .008-.016. Had to change the gap a thousandth at a time to finally get it to start with the electric. If would start at .012, but not .011 or .013.

Tried changing carbs, ignition modules, making sure the battery was fully charged, but nothing would fix it other than playing with the armature gap.

Click to expand...

The manual says the engine must reach a certain RPM (150 if I remember correctly) to start, I assume it's because the coil of the magnatron won't work properly at slower RPM's? Maybe your ecec starter wasn't cranking it fast enough and the rope start was. just a thought.

I considered that too, about the starter not turning fast enough. After getting the air gap set at .012, it would start cold, even after setting over night. But wouldn't even restart warm after running before. The mower hasn't been back to the shop since.

I have never ran across a air gap problim where a few .001s made a difference. Like I said I just use a business card and
I would say no two cards are the same. I can see me now spending spending hours looking for a problim and its just the air gap?
What are you changing when you go from .013 to .011, timing. Then I haven't come across that many Chinese engines.

Buckshot 1 said:

:smile: Even changing the MN: to 252417, did not show up on my list. Trying setting the air gap on the magtron to .012.

Click to expand...

Funny, cause looking on flea bay, with the 252417 briggs and stratton, gets lots of responses. No engines, but lots of parts for them, so someone knew the number.

Now that it's running, my neighbor came by and commented about the knocking noise it makes at idle. He thinks it's in the rod knocking. The knocking stops as RPM's go up. I thought if a rod was knocking it would get worse at higher RPM's, no?

Also it seems to have started some spitting and popping back out the carb on occasion.

Ideas?

:smile: Seeing how that engine is a 79, it probably has alot of hrs on it. If its rod knock, should get louder as the r's go up. But it could be piston slap, valve train noise, it could also be carbon knock. If it were me, I pull the head and see if there is any movement in the piston, either up and down or sideways. An with the head off, you can also de-carbon the head. valves and piston. The spitting, could be timing or a valve hanging up, usually the exhaust vavle.

Ok maybe I will give that a look see. Especially since replacement Briggs engines are an absurd $900+. Lookin real serious at the chinese harbor freight engines for $350 for a 14hp.

Hopefully I won't need either.

If you have the head off,, a good way to see if your con rod has play/wear is to rotate the crank until the piston is 1/2 way up in the cylinder then rotate the crank "just a little" back and forth. If the crank moves "without" the piston moving, "that" will show you how much play you have.

I might pull the head off to have a look see. I don't have a head gasket, so that might be an issue. I spoke with the owner today and we have come to a consensus of just running it till it quits, so I won't worry about replacing it, yet!

I will see if I have a left over gasket from my 20HP Briggs flat twin. Prob a very similar gasket.

:thumbdown: A 20hp oppy head gasket will not work on a 11hp.

Buckshot 1 said:

:thumbdown: A 20hp oppy head gasket will not work on a 11hp.

Click to expand...

Moot point anyway, I looked and don't have the gasket.

Small update on this thing. I spoke with the guy at Power Tec, in Benton Harbor, Mich, they have all kinds of parts for these old Heald units. Regarding the knocking noise, he suggested I check the converter for side to side, wobble, meaning the keyway might be loose. Lo and behold it does wobble. That just might be the cause of my knock, not internal at all, I hope.

I will let ya know. Right now I am in the painting stage of this build. It's not a TOTAL repaint, since I didn't pull the drive train out of it to paint in there, but everything else got sanded and is being repainted. Looking pretty sharp so far, if I so say so myself.


I will post pics of the completed job.

:smile: Looking forward to the pictures. So did you pull the converter to see if the knock was still there?

Not yet, everything is still in the paint phase, and the engine coverd in paper. Once I paint and put it all back together I will check it. Its easy to get to.

OK got the paper off the engine tonight and checked the converter. The main bolt, bolting it to the crank was loose enough to turn by hand, duh! I haven't started it up yet, but I am sure that is the source of the "knocking" noise. What a relief. I feel like a dummy for not thinking of checking things like that out before.

Tonight I got all the parts painted, except the bed, and tomorrow will re assemble the painted parts. I will post pics of the completed unit. I must say it looks about 200% better than before.

Got it together and fired it up and THAT KNOCKING IS GONE!!!! Yipee!

One other issue I have never gotten rid of is it still backfires ans basically seems a bit out of time. With the magnatron system I didn't see any lateral adjustment to allow for timing the spark.

Any suggestions?

:smile: You are correct, there is no lateral movement only up and down for the mag. Check the flywheel key. It maybe partially sheared, throwing your timing off. Also check the mag air gap to flywheel, I set mine at .012". That engine was originally a points engine, someone has either install a Magnetron mag/a magnetron ign. kit on the the original points mag.

Buckshot 1 said:

:smile: You are correct, there is no lateral movement only up and down for the mag. Check the flywheel key. It maybe partially sheared, throwing your timing off. Also check the mag air gap to flywheel, I set mine at .012". That engine was originally a points engine, someone has either install a Magnetron mag/a magnetron ign. kit on the the original points mag.

Click to expand...

I thought so as well, at first. There is no place on the engine where points would mount, and the flywheel cover also says Magnatron Ignition on it, on a factory sticker.
the flywheel is solid, I have had it off and back on. No slop there. Keyway looked good.
can the gap affect timing?

Yes, the armature air gap will affect the timing. Set it at the factory setting of .010.

I am pretty sure that is what I set it at. Dont remember completely.

:smile: After going back and checking the IPL for that engine, I guess it was manufactered either way. Set air gap at .010 like Rivets stated. I always set my air gaps at .012 and never had a problem.

Yesterday I spoke with a local small engine repair guy and he also said he felt the popping is timing related. He uses a business card, LOL, which some here suggested. I am retty certain I set it at .010" but I will be pulling the cover back off and this time I will experiment with various settings to see if/which one clears the backfiring.

Since my laptop died on me it's be

I will let ya know if anything helps.

Its been a real PITA to post msgs let alone pics, so I will have to figure out another way.

On a good note, I got the brake parts back and installed, but just got the valve for the park brake so I have not installed it yet. I also need to find an inexpensive hi/lo headlight switch for the handlebars.

I used a scraper and engine cleaner to clean about 95% of the crud that has accumulated on this thing over the last 30 yrs.

.010 air gap is the manufacture recommendation. Setting the gap at .012 will retard the spark timing and will produce a hotter spark, but also slightly shorten the spark duration, increasing the amount of unburnt fuel, which will cause a popping in the muffler. Setting the gap at .008 will advance the spark timing, producing a weaker spark, and again increasing the amount of unburnt fuel. Hope this makes sense.

Yes it makes alot of sense, I just need to find out why its popping now and find a setting that stos it. If the gap is other than. 010" I will know why, I hope!:thumbsup:

If the popping is still there, it is caused by one of two things. One sticking or burned valves. Two too rich of a fuel mixture.

Ok I will check those out if need be.

I have seen/heard this popping sound from excessive carbon in the head and/or muffler, but I suspect a valve. If the valves were ground, were they ground at the respective 30 & 45 degree angle? Were the seats ground to match the valves?
The way I have grown to check this is when I lap the valves, I "DON'T" rotate the valves 360 around (lapper between your 2 hands) in the beginning. With fine oil based lapping compound I rotate the valve only about an eighth of a turn back and forth. After doing that, I remove the valve and clean the compound off and visually see that the marks from the lapping are "ALL" around the valve.

I have discovered this trick a long time ago from Taylor Offenhauser, that by lapping the valve in a 360 degree rotation with a seat that "might" have a high spot on one side of it, or is uneven, "that ONE high spot" will mark the valve all around giving the impression that the valve matches the seat when in effect, the seat is uneven. It doesn't take much.
If an exhaust valve has even a slight intermittant leak, unburned fuel will pass through and detonate in post giving a "popping" sound.

Good infobto remember, I had honestly never considered that a 360 rotation might cover up an issue.
on this engine, due to a number of limitations, I will not be going into the valves, so if it can't be solved with fuel or timing, thats as far as I can go with it.

Rivets said:

.010 air gap is the manufacture recommendation. Setting the gap at .012 will retard the spark timing and will produce a hotter spark, but also slightly shorten the spark duration, increasing the amount of unburnt fuel, which will cause a popping in the muffler. Setting the gap at .008 will advance the spark timing, producing a weaker spark, and again increasing the amount of unburnt fuel. Hope this makes sense.

Click to expand...

:smile: My B&S single cyl. L-head repair manual states, air gap .010-,014 for 13 thru 28 alum series and cast iron series 23 thru 32 . that is why I always set the air gap @ .012.

Buckshot 1 said:

:smile: My B&S single cyl. L-head repair manual states, air gap .010-,014 for 13 thru 28 alum series and cast iron series 23 thru 32 . that is why I always set the air gap @ .012.

Click to expand...

OK looks like they left some room for engine variables in there. Thanks

:smile: You are Welcome.

OK finally made some serious headway with this thing. Had to lay off it for a bit. Neighbor had a oak tree split and I got some free firewood for next year.:wink:

I do NOT pass on free oak.

I finally decided to pull the carb, and went through it. Then re-installed and adjusted according to the owners manual it came with. Adjusted the idle mixture and idle speed, then adjusted the high speed mixture. Revs freely all the way to governor cut-out. Very happy with performance. I also finally got the breaks working. Took a new master cylinder. There is still a little bit of air in the line, kinda frustrating, but the parts guy in Michigan said they can be a real bear to get all the air out.

He pumps it in from the bottom up, which I did, but still got bubbles in there, darn it.

I also got the electrical all figured out, including a break pressure switch to activate the brake light. Got the headligh working, but had to make a switch for the handlebar. Most all are made for 7/8 bars, and these are 1". Most were also too expensive or had all sorts of extra switches, like horn, kill button etc. I have the bed installed again. All I need to do now is remount the seat and seat back, that have re-upholstered.

I will post pics as soon as it's all back together. Very close now. Thanks for the support here.

Sorry to tell you this, but you'll have to go back and readjust the carb. The high speed mixture must be adjusted first, as it feeds the idle circuit. After the high speed circuit is set, then adjust the idle circuit, then idle speed.

I actually think I did it in that order. I went by the book. Earlier in my posts I was just listing what I had done, no necessarily in the order I did them. Thanks for the warning I will remember that if there is a next one.

Well it's done and ready to take back to the owner. here's some pics for a history.

First is a before shot



Then A shot of it finished, with everything open



All closed up, ready to ride.



Front view



Rear view (I saved the one good original sticker)



The engine runs fair, smokes a little, and the carb is worn a bit cause it's near impossible to keep it adjusted.

Anyway I am done with it. Took it from a non running pile of rust, and cleaned, lubed, and painted it, and went over the engine, drive train and electrical. NONE of the electrical worked when I got it. Now the high and low beams work, tail light and brake light works. It now has a hydraulic parking brake.

Nearly all bolts removed were replaced with new ones, and all electrical wires were encased in some sort of wire loom. The ONLY part of the original brakes (which couldn't even come close to working before) that remains, is a 45 deg brass fitting that's on the master cylinder.

I also built a steel side panel from some expanded metal I had left over from my trailer build. I repositioned the battery and modified the battery holding base for leg clearance. I also rerouted the fuel line, and repositioned the shut off valve. Originally, there was no cover or guard on the torque converter side of the engine bay (the expanded metal panel) and the fuel shut off was just above the torque converter. Not a smart location, especially of someone decided to shut off the fuel BEFORE shutting off the engine.

I couldn't locate a suitable headlight switch that was ONLY for headlights, so I made one from 1 1/4" square steel tubing and some plastic end caps, and a 3 position rocker switch I had. It has high/off/low beam positions. You can see it on the right handlebar just beside the throttle grip.

The owner had the seats recovered, while I did the rest of the work. She does NOT yet know of ANY of the cleanup/paint work I have done. That will be a surprise!

All told I have probably somewhere between 100 and 200 hr of labor in this.

It's been fun!