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2013 MTD/Murray 13AN772S058 42" PTO won't engage
#1
P
prometheis_78063
P
prometheis_78063
I just replaced my entire cutting deck, (2)spindles, (2)idler pulleys, brake puck/pads and brake hardware, belt and blades. When I reconnected the deck, the motor starts w/no issues, but when I engage the PTO lever on the rear right hand fender, the blades do not engage.
The old belt had slack, the new belt has less slack but still has slack. I have the shop manual (all 186 pages) and from what I've read, I have a mechanical (versus electrical) PTO engagement system. The manual shows the beltway for every deck except mine which is a "S" deck, but believe I have it threaded correctly.
After researching the web I tested the PTO switch by trying to start the engine while sitting on the machine with the PTO engaged and engine wouldn't turnover/start, but starts right up if the PTO lever is in the off position. The PTO cable is tight and in good repair. If I have to put it in the shop, I also have to pay for pickup and delivery to San Antonio 35mi away.
On a footnote there is good tension on the PTO lever. Also when I reconnected rear left and right sides of the deck I installed the "U" brackets on the deck to the outside of the pull-down lever and rod (with the cotter pin) to the inside of the mower (again no photos of the rear deck installation)
I would appreciate any inputs or suggestions you may have
700 series shop manual - http://service.mtdproducts.com/Training_Education/769_06667_700_series_riders.pdf
The old belt had slack, the new belt has less slack but still has slack. I have the shop manual (all 186 pages) and from what I've read, I have a mechanical (versus electrical) PTO engagement system. The manual shows the beltway for every deck except mine which is a "S" deck, but believe I have it threaded correctly.
After researching the web I tested the PTO switch by trying to start the engine while sitting on the machine with the PTO engaged and engine wouldn't turnover/start, but starts right up if the PTO lever is in the off position. The PTO cable is tight and in good repair. If I have to put it in the shop, I also have to pay for pickup and delivery to San Antonio 35mi away.
On a footnote there is good tension on the PTO lever. Also when I reconnected rear left and right sides of the deck I installed the "U" brackets on the deck to the outside of the pull-down lever and rod (with the cotter pin) to the inside of the mower (again no photos of the rear deck installation)
I would appreciate any inputs or suggestions you may have
700 series shop manual - http://service.mtdproducts.com/Training_Education/769_06667_700_series_riders.pdf
Attachments
#2
NorthBama
NorthBama
the deck engagement cable must pull tension on the belt to spin the blades. Check at the idler pulley pivot point that it is moving freely to tighten the belt and release the brake pads from the spindles
a picture of the way you have the belt routing would be nice
a picture of the way you have the belt routing would be nice
#3
M
mechanic mark
M
mechanic mark
https://www.mtdproducts.com/equipme...Code=62&modelNumber=13AN772S058&serialNumber=
SEE PAGES 27 & 28 OPERATORS MANUAL
SEE PAGES 27 & 28 OPERATORS MANUAL
#4
P
prometheis_78063
I have attached a drawing of the belt path provided in the owners manual (thank you mechanic mark). I have greased all pivot points and bearings in the pulleys and spindles to prevent moisture or condensation. The right side idler pulley has tension to where both brake pucks are engaged with the spindles. I can manually move the right idler pulley counterclockwise to disengage the brake pucks but when released, the pulley returns to the right most position re-engaging the pucks. Is there a belt tensioner somewhere that I'm missing? Some way to keep the pulley in the left most position? I just noticed I may have the PTO cable/spring attached to the square hole on the right pulley bracket instead of the the little round hole near the pulley pictured in figure 8.48 (attached). How can I expand the spring enough to make it fit in the hole ner the pulley? I had a heck of a time getting it where I did (in the square hole) near the brake rod!!!! I think hopefully we found the problem....will keep ya'all advised!
P
prometheis_78063
the deck engagement cable must pull tension on the belt to spin the blades. Check at the idler pulley pivot point that it is moving freely to tighten the belt and release the brake pads from the spindles
a picture of the way you have the belt routing would be nice
I have attached a drawing of the belt path provided in the owners manual (thank you mechanic mark). I have greased all pivot points and bearings in the pulleys and spindles to prevent moisture or condensation. The right side idler pulley has tension to where both brake pucks are engaged with the spindles. I can manually move the right idler pulley counterclockwise to disengage the brake pucks but when released, the pulley returns to the right most position re-engaging the pucks. Is there a belt tensioner somewhere that I'm missing? Some way to keep the pulley in the left most position? I just noticed I may have the PTO cable/spring attached to the square hole on the right pulley bracket instead of the the little round hole near the pulley pictured in figure 8.48 (attached). How can I expand the spring enough to make it fit in the hole ner the pulley? I had a heck of a time getting it where I did (in the square hole) near the brake rod!!!! I think hopefully we found the problem....will keep ya'all advised!
Attachments
#5
I
ILENGINE
I
ILENGINE
Just love this design.
Park under the nearest shady spot in the yard, grab a chair, and stare at the frame and the angle of the engine to see if the front of the engine looks like it is setting lower than the rear. If so remove the front two motor mount bolts, loosen the two rear, and then insert a washer or two under each side of the front two mounting surfaces and the frame and then put everything back together.
Something about this design that allows the frame to shift and the front of the engine will drop preventing the deck belt from tightening.
Park under the nearest shady spot in the yard, grab a chair, and stare at the frame and the angle of the engine to see if the front of the engine looks like it is setting lower than the rear. If so remove the front two motor mount bolts, loosen the two rear, and then insert a washer or two under each side of the front two mounting surfaces and the frame and then put everything back together.
Something about this design that allows the frame to shift and the front of the engine will drop preventing the deck belt from tightening.
#6
P
prometheis_78063
Ok we're getting closer! I moved the PTO spring/cable from the square hole to under the idler pulley on the RH side brake bracket. I installed the deck and anxiously engaged the PTO blades. Unfortunately I had the deck at the lowest setting which I never use, I only use the highest setting.
The good news - the PTO engaged! yeah! for about 5 seconds
The bad news - the left side idler pulley came apart, the belt came off, luckily I was able to find all the parts. Deck now removed. Pics are provided w/the belt (see 4 attachments).
Question: I only hand tightened the idler pulleys enough so the pulleys would spin freely with some minor resistance. If I hand tighten all the way, the new pulleys do not spin freely and are seized. Which hand tightening method is correct? I really don't want to have to re-install the deck again as the PTO spring/cable is a pain to install.
btw - thanks for all your quick responses, I appreciate you!
P
prometheis_78063
I have attached a drawing of the belt path provided in the owners manual (thank you mechanic mark). I have greased all pivot points and bearings in the pulleys and spindles to prevent moisture or condensation. The right side idler pulley has tension to where both brake pucks are engaged with the spindles. I can manually move the right idler pulley counterclockwise to disengage the brake pucks but when released, the pulley returns to the right most position re-engaging the pucks. Is there a belt tensioner somewhere that I'm missing? Some way to keep the pulley in the left most position? I just noticed I may have the PTO cable/spring attached to the square hole on the right pulley bracket instead of the the little round hole near the pulley pictured in figure 8.48 (attached). How can I expand the spring enough to make it fit in the hole ner the pulley? I had a heck of a time getting it where I did (in the square hole) near the brake rod!!!! I think hopefully we found the problem....will keep ya'all advised!
Ok we're getting closer! I moved the PTO spring/cable from the square hole to under the idler pulley on the RH side brake bracket. I installed the deck and anxiously engaged the PTO blades. Unfortunately I had the deck at the lowest setting which I never use, I only use the highest setting.
The good news - the PTO engaged! yeah! for about 5 seconds
The bad news - the left side idler pulley came apart, the belt came off, luckily I was able to find all the parts. Deck now removed. Pics are provided w/the belt (see 4 attachments).
Question: I only hand tightened the idler pulleys enough so the pulleys would spin freely with some minor resistance. If I hand tighten all the way, the new pulleys do not spin freely and are seized. Which hand tightening method is correct? I really don't want to have to re-install the deck again as the PTO spring/cable is a pain to install.
btw - thanks for all your quick responses, I appreciate you!
Attachments
#7
B
bertsmobile1
That is wrong, you have a problem with the pulleys or their mountings.
A idler should spin freely no matter how tight you do the mountings up because the bolt/nut should only bear on the inside race and you got to put a lot of tons of pressure on them to distort them.
You probably have a washer where it should not be that is bridging the inner & outer races or one of the spacers is on the wrong side of the pulley or the pulley is up side down.
The inner race is usually around 0.010" wider than the outer race so when tightened only the inner race is clamped.
If there is a spacer inside the pulley it should have a shoulder for the inner race to bear against so that the outer race & pulley can spin freely.
Washers that go under pulley mounting bolts are high tensile and thicker than a normal washer so they don't distort and foul on either the balls or the outer race.
B
bertsmobile1
Ok we're getting closer! I moved the PTO spring/cable from the square hole to under the idler pulley on the RH side brake bracket. I installed the deck and anxiously engaged the PTO blades. Unfortunately I had the deck at the lowest setting which I never use, I only use the highest setting.
The good news - the PTO engaged! yeah! for about 5 seconds
The bad news - the left side idler pulley came apart, the belt came off, luckily I was able to find all the parts. Deck now removed. Pics are provided w/the belt (see 4 attachments).
Question: I only hand tightened the idler pulleys enough so the pulleys would spin freely with some minor resistance. If I hand tighten all the way, the new pulleys do not spin freely and are seized. Which hand tightening method is correct? I really don't want to have to re-install the deck again as the PTO spring/cable is a pain to install.
btw - thanks for all your quick responses, I appreciate you!
That is wrong, you have a problem with the pulleys or their mountings.
A idler should spin freely no matter how tight you do the mountings up because the bolt/nut should only bear on the inside race and you got to put a lot of tons of pressure on them to distort them.
You probably have a washer where it should not be that is bridging the inner & outer races or one of the spacers is on the wrong side of the pulley or the pulley is up side down.
The inner race is usually around 0.010" wider than the outer race so when tightened only the inner race is clamped.
If there is a spacer inside the pulley it should have a shoulder for the inner race to bear against so that the outer race & pulley can spin freely.
Washers that go under pulley mounting bolts are high tensile and thicker than a normal washer so they don't distort and foul on either the balls or the outer race.
#8
P
prometheis_78063
ok. The pulley is flat on one side where the cap goes on top, then the nut(#16, 24, 48, 32 and 54). On the bottom the fitting has a bolt, belt guide, a washer and then extrusion/longer fitting (ref link) on the pulley.
https://www.partstree.com/models/13an772s058-murray-lawn-tractor-2013/mower-deck-8/
Should the extrusion/longer side be on top? The cap would not seat correctly if that were the case, right? I think I have them on correctly and have re-used the same washers, brackets and springs. Maybe the washer goes on top of the pulley and underneath the cap; not under the pulley and on top of the belt guide as pictured? thoughts?
P
prometheis_78063
That is wrong, you have a problem with the pulleys or their mountings.
A idler should spin freely no matter how tight you do the mountings up because the bolt/nut should only bear on the inside race and you got to put a lot of tons of pressure on them to distort them.
You probably have a washer where it should not be that is bridging the inner & outer races or one of the spacers is on the wrong side of the pulley or the pulley is up side down.
The inner race is usually around 0.010" wider than the outer race so when tightened only the inner race is clamped.
If there is a spacer inside the pulley it should have a shoulder for the inner race to bear against so that the outer race & pulley can spin freely.
Washers that go under pulley mounting bolts are high tensile and thicker than a normal washer so they don't distort and foul on either the balls or the outer race.
ok. The pulley is flat on one side where the cap goes on top, then the nut(#16, 24, 48, 32 and 54). On the bottom the fitting has a bolt, belt guide, a washer and then extrusion/longer fitting (ref link) on the pulley.
https://www.partstree.com/models/13an772s058-murray-lawn-tractor-2013/mower-deck-8/
Should the extrusion/longer side be on top? The cap would not seat correctly if that were the case, right? I think I have them on correctly and have re-used the same washers, brackets and springs. Maybe the washer goes on top of the pulley and underneath the cap; not under the pulley and on top of the belt guide as pictured? thoughts?
#9
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
The stand off bush / boss that goes into the pulley should have a shoulder on it
When pressed into the bearing it should be just short of being level with the inner race.
Thus the protection cap should push the inner race down onto the bush when you tighten the bolt.
Generally the shoulder side goes down so it holds the pulley clear of the deck / tension arm.
IT was easy when the parts were new because they came with the bushing already fitted so it could not be fitted upside down.
However now days it is cheaper to sell a generic plain pulley with a loose bush in a bag
This is what the original pulley looked like , however it is upside down.
https://www.stens.com/280-646-flat-idler
Although it shows a double row ball bearing with a custom extended inner race , they have not been used for decades and all the idlers use a standard single row deep groove bearing, with a bush.
The latter is about 1/4 the price of making the double row set up because std bearings and a lot cheaper.
When pressed into the bearing it should be just short of being level with the inner race.
Thus the protection cap should push the inner race down onto the bush when you tighten the bolt.
Generally the shoulder side goes down so it holds the pulley clear of the deck / tension arm.
IT was easy when the parts were new because they came with the bushing already fitted so it could not be fitted upside down.
However now days it is cheaper to sell a generic plain pulley with a loose bush in a bag
This is what the original pulley looked like , however it is upside down.
https://www.stens.com/280-646-flat-idler
Although it shows a double row ball bearing with a custom extended inner race , they have not been used for decades and all the idlers use a standard single row deep groove bearing, with a bush.
The latter is about 1/4 the price of making the double row set up because std bearings and a lot cheaper.
#10
P
prometheis_78063
I flipped the pulley down side up with the same result. I returned the pulley to the original upright position (flat side up) and moved the washer from under the pulley (as described in the parts diagram link above) to the the top of the pulley between the the pulley and the cap. It worked! I could tighten it down and still have the pulley spin freely! The unit is now back together, tested and cutting like a champ (but now I have to cut my grass)!
Seems I may have to re-level the side to side adjustment screw (pg 22 in the owners manual) as the left side is 1/2" higher than the right. I'll wait until I cut the grass to see for sure.........until next time, thank you all!
P
prometheis_78063
The stand off bush / boss that goes into the pulley should have a shoulder on it
When pressed into the bearing it should be just short of being level with the inner race.
Thus the protection cap should push the inner race down onto the bush when you tighten the bolt.
Generally the shoulder side goes down so it holds the pulley clear of the deck / tension arm.
IT was easy when the parts were new because they came with the bushing already fitted so it could not be fitted upside down.
However now days it is cheaper to sell a generic plain pulley with a loose bush in a bag
This is what the original pulley looked like , however it is upside down.
https://www.stens.com/280-646-flat-idler
Although it shows a double row ball bearing with a custom extended inner race , they have not been used for decades and all the idlers use a standard single row deep groove bearing, with a bush.
The latter is about 1/4 the price of making the double row set up because std bearings and a lot cheaper.
I flipped the pulley down side up with the same result. I returned the pulley to the original upright position (flat side up) and moved the washer from under the pulley (as described in the parts diagram link above) to the the top of the pulley between the the pulley and the cap. It worked! I could tighten it down and still have the pulley spin freely! The unit is now back together, tested and cutting like a champ (but now I have to cut my grass)!
Seems I may have to re-level the side to side adjustment screw (pg 22 in the owners manual) as the left side is 1/2" higher than the right. I'll wait until I cut the grass to see for sure.........until next time, thank you all!
#11
B
bertsmobile1
Glad to hear you are up & running.
While pattern parts are a God send for keeping old mowers mowing , they can require a little fetteling .
Good chance either the bushings was too short or the old covers had worn or the new pulley is a slightly different shape as covers vanished in a cost cutting exercise a long while ago when they switched to sealed bearings.
B
bertsmobile1
I flipped the pulley down side up with the same result. I returned the pulley to the original upright position (flat side up) and moved the washer from under the pulley (as described in the parts diagram link above) to the the top of the pulley between the the pulley and the cap. It worked! I could tighten it down and still have the pulley spin freely! The unit is now back together, tested and cutting like a champ (but now I have to cut my grass)!
Seems I may have to re-level the side to side adjustment screw (pg 22 in the owners manual) as the left side is 1/2" higher than the right. I'll wait until I cut the grass to see for sure.........until next time, thank you all!
Glad to hear you are up & running.
While pattern parts are a God send for keeping old mowers mowing , they can require a little fetteling .
Good chance either the bushings was too short or the old covers had worn or the new pulley is a slightly different shape as covers vanished in a cost cutting exercise a long while ago when they switched to sealed bearings.
#12
P
prometheis_78063
P
prometheis_78063
Mowed for 1-1/2 hours without incident, very happy until the belt came off the left idler pulley and belt guide. I loosened the pulley enough to slip it between the pulley and belt guide and re-tightened it and it spun freely, and checked the rest of the belt path. I engaged the PTO blade and started the 2nd half of the mow and in less than 2 mins the new belt got shredded (yes I kept the old one). Why would it work fine for 90 minutes and then suddenly turn to crap? Tomorrow I'll install the old belt and hope it won't shred. If it does I'm having an authorized MTD service center pick it up and service it. My patience is at it's end. This project seems to have taken on a life of its own.......and of course it's 100 deg here in TX...
"It's still cheaper than buying a new machine"
"It's still cheaper than buying a new machine"
#13
NorthBama
NorthBama
some mtd belt keepers have a bolt and another little indent to drop into when it is lined up in the correct location. If keeper is not in the correct location the belt will come off. You may want to check location it is easily moved out of position when installing a new belt.
#14
P
prometheis_78063
Yeah, I knew about the indent and placement of the belt keeper (1 of them has 2 indents). I forgot to align it before running it, dangit. I tried to rerun the belt w/o removing the deck and that's what happened. I'll be removing the deck this a.m. before it gets hot. I'm getting pretty good at removing/installing the deck. My bad, serves me right I guess, more as it happens...thanks for the input
fyi - the deck on this machine has only 4" of blade to ground clearance in it's highest setting, definitely not designed for TX hill country terrain. It doesn't even have brackets to install deck wheels. MTD does not measure blade clearance.
P
prometheis_78063
some mtd belt keepers have a bolt and another little indent to drop into when it is lined up in the correct location. If keeper is not in the correct location the belt will come off. You may want to check location it is easily moved out of position when installing a new belt.
View attachment 45098
Yeah, I knew about the indent and placement of the belt keeper (1 of them has 2 indents). I forgot to align it before running it, dangit. I tried to rerun the belt w/o removing the deck and that's what happened. I'll be removing the deck this a.m. before it gets hot. I'm getting pretty good at removing/installing the deck. My bad, serves me right I guess, more as it happens...thanks for the input
fyi - the deck on this machine has only 4" of blade to ground clearance in it's highest setting, definitely not designed for TX hill country terrain. It doesn't even have brackets to install deck wheels. MTD does not measure blade clearance.