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2007 Toro Recycler Easy Start 190cc B&S hard starting

#1

K

kingjames1

Found this mower for free several years ago. It wouldn't start. Put in a new carb and it started right up. Ran it for a couple years but last year it had a hard time starting.

Yesterday I ran a leak down test and it said it was only 70%. I could also hear air coming out of the exhaust.

I took off the head and the gasket looks okay. But there appears to be little specks of carbon around the exhaust seat. The piston head doesn't seem to have an excess of carbon. There is a little side to side play in the valves. There is no scoring on the cylinder wall.

So a couple questions:

Can carbon cause the compression leak?

Can these valve seats be ground and reseated?

Is a little side to side play in the valves normal?

Thanks for your help.

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#2

B

Bertrrr

You can lap the valves with a little lapping compound, How does the compression stack up other than leak down ?
Carbon can score the cylinders and is very abrasive , side to side indicates worn valve guides and can be a cause for smoke / low compression lack of power etc.


#3

I

ILENGINE

Don't worry about the side to side movement in the valve. some movement is normal, and without the proper valve guide gauges would be hard to tell if excessive or not. Lap the valves back in and reset the valve clearance, install a new head gasket and go back to mowing.


#4

K

kingjames1

ILENGINE said:
Don't worry about the side to side movement in the valve. some movement is normal, and without the proper valve guide gauges would be hard to tell if excessive or not. Lap the valves back in and reset the valve clearance, install a new head gasket and go back to mowing.
Click to expand...
Ok I'll give that a go. Thank you.


#5

K

kingjames1

ILENGINE said:
Don't worry about the side to side movement in the valve. some movement is normal, and without the proper valve guide gauges would be hard to tell if excessive or not. Lap the valves back in and reset the valve clearance, install a new head gasket and go back to mowing.
Click to expand...
Compression was about 33 lbs. Exhaust valve was more snug than the intake.


#6

I

ILENGINE

kingjames1 said:
Compression was about 33 lbs. Exhaust valve was more snug than the intake.
Click to expand...
With compression release the compression reading in all but meaningless. Have worked on brand new Briggs engines with 30 psi out of the box. Worked on a generator a few years back that read 95% or 5% bypass so everything was sealing properly. Compression reading was 5 psi. That one had a clogged spark arrester screen in the muffler preventing it from running due to exhaust backpressure.


#7

K

kingjames1

Ok. Thanks.


#8

S

SeniorCitizen

I've seen 3 engines in my life that failed after the valves were lapped . All cylinders on a ford failed simultaneously after about 1,000 miles with broken rings from groove and ring wear . This lap job was done at a ford dealership . Second was a buddy that lapped valves of 1 cylinder on a V8 ford . That cyl. failed after approx.
120 miles . Third was a 1 cylinder mower
that made1 mow and wouldn't start after that . A work buddy ask me why and i knew he had worked on it . The first question i ask him was --- did you lapp the valves ? My answer was --check compression -- sure nuff it was low .

Now, why . All of that lapping compound must be thoroughly cleaned from the valves and seats before it is started .

When i was in diesel school many years ago there was a special detergent for cleaning that with a stiff brush after all was wiped with a shop towel .


#9

K

kingjames1

Ok but I'm guessing the low compression was from the exhaust valve having carbon on it.

I don't know, I'm no mechanic but I'm not afraid to wrench either.

My brother and I rebuilt my 383 Roadrunner when I was 18. Lapped (He called it grinding.) the valves and all and never had a problem. But that was long time ago.

I ran the compression test first on the mower but then read on one of these posts the leak down test is better. Air coming out of the exhaust is what led me to take the head off and see what was going on.

These forums are great. You learn a lot of stuff on them.


#10

Tiger Small Engine

Tiger Small Engine

SeniorCitizen said:
I've seen 3 engines in my life that failed after the valves were lapped . All cylinders on a ford failed simultaneously after about 1,000 miles with broken rings from groove and ring wear . This lap job was done at a ford dealership . Second was a buddy that lapped valves of 1 cylinder on a V8 ford . That cyl. failed after approx.
120 miles . Third was a 1 cylinder mower
that made1 mow and wouldn't start after that . A work buddy ask me why and i knew he had worked on it . The first question i ask him was --- did you lapp the valves ? My answer was --check compression -- sure nuff it was low .

Now, why . All of that lapping compound must be thoroughly cleaned from the valves and seats before it is started .

When i was in diesel school many years ago there was a special detergent for cleaning that with a stiff brush after all was wiped with a shop towel .
Click to expand...

Anyone who knows how to properly lap and set valve clearance , should know you must thoroughly clean all the lapping compound after. It doesn’t get any more basic.


#11

RYANS'

RYANS'

I recently pulled one of these engines from the rubbish. Replaced the pull start mechanism with another free part. The only cost to me was the petra oleum. My community rely on me to mow the grass here, we have approximately one hectare. My question is, why do we want to rebuild the engine. My cousin got re-married and caught a big fish, she is very wealthy. When I am fishing with them I still think about honing the cylinder, lapping valves and replacing head gasket. Is there something wrong with me?


#12

K

kingjames1

Ok another question. The valve seal was broken. So how do I remove the old one?
Thanks.

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#13

K

kingjames1

RYANS' said:
I recently pulled one of these engines from the rubbish. Replaced the pull start mechanism with another free part. The only cost to me was the petra oleum. My community rely on me to mow the grass here, we have approximately one hectare. My question is, why do we want to rebuild the engine. My cousin got re-married and caught a big fish, she is very wealthy. When I am fishing with them I still think about honing the cylinder, lapping valves and replacing head gasket. Is there something wrong with me?
Click to expand...

RYANS' said:
I recently pulled one of these engines from the rubbish. Replaced the pull start mechanism with another free part. The only cost to me was the petra oleum. My community rely on me to mow the grass here, we have approximately one hectare. My question is, why do we want to rebuild the engine. My cousin got re-married and caught a big fish, she is very wealthy. When I am fishing with them I still think about honing the cylinder, lapping valves and replacing head gasket. Is there something wrong with me?
Click to expand...
I don't know. I'm retired and have the time. Plus I don't want to spend a lot of money on an old mower I only use to mow my ditch. Easier than the weed eater.


#14

RYANS'

RYANS'

kingjames1 said:
I don't know. I'm retired and have the time. Plus I don't want to spend a lot of money on an old mower I only use to mow my ditch. Easier than the weed eater.
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Your in business, as they say. I sprayed our ditch with weed killer. Some times I mow lawns with the weed eater because I'm crazy.


#15

S

SeniorCitizen

Valve seals , if you by new seals possibly install instructions come with them . Long shot ? yes but free .


#16

K

kingjames1

Thanks.


#17

K

kingjames1

Finally got the seal out with a long carriage bolt. Tried needle nose pliers, seal pick, bolt extractor.

Bought a cheap lapping tool for a drill. Figured it should work for just 2 small valves. Didn't last 5 minutes. Tool went right through the rubber suction cups.

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#18

RYANS'

RYANS'

kingjames1 said:
Finally got the seal out with a long carriage bolt. Tried needle nose pliers, seal pick, bolt extractor.

Bought a cheap lapping tool for a drill. Figured it should work for just 2 small valves. Didn't last 5 minutes. Tool went right through the rubber suction cups.
Click to expand...
I used my son's old tooth brush, they have a suction cup on the bottom. Twirled it with my hands to lap the valves. I've read and heard your supposed to clean well after, to prevent any grinding paste getting into the cylinder. Good luck.


#19

K

kingjames1

RYANS' said:
I used my son's old tooth brush, they have a suction cup on the bottom. Twirled it with my hands to lap the valves. I've read and heard your supposed to clean well after, to prevent any grinding paste getting into the cylinder. Good luck.
Click to expand...
Thanks. Sorry about the redundancy. Didn't think it went through so I wrote it again.

Thinking about just getting the sticks. It's just 2 valves so they should survive. Gasket surface and chamber cleaned up real good. Used a 3M round thing, don't know what it's called, that goes on a drill. Used that when I replaced the cylinder head on my Liberty. Really does a nice job.

I also got thinking about the mower. Before I quit using it it would smoke when I started it. Then it would stop smoking after a short while. First thing I thought was the rings. But maybe it was just the seal broke and leaked oil into the chamber. Piston seems snug in the cylinder.


#20

K

kingjames1

Ok, another question. Will this create a problem on this small engine? Noticed it when cleaning the head. Or should I use some RTV with the head gasket?IMG_20240402_130547_3_kindlephoto-10537014.jpg

Had this on my cylinder head on my Liberty though not as pronounced. It caused a tiny leak of coolant which set a code. Had to change the cylinder head.


#21

S

slomo

kingjames1 said:
Ok, another question. Will this create a problem on this small engine? Noticed it when cleaning the head. Or should I use some RTV with the head gasket?View attachment 68199

Had this on my cylinder head on my Liberty though not as pronounced. It caused a tiny leak of coolant which set a code. Had to change the cylinder head.
Click to expand...
RTV?

People, stop using RTV. They make proper gaskets that purposely fit your application. I so dislike tearing into someone else's mess having to dig all that silicone out. Just doubled the labor time.

What you should do is lap that and every removed head and cyl deck surface prior to installing a fresh head gasket.


#22

S

slomo

kingjames1 said:
Found this mower for free several years ago. It wouldn't start. Put in a new carb and it started right up. Ran it for a couple years but last year it had a hard time starting.

Yesterday I ran a leak down test and it said it was only 70%. I could also hear air coming out of the exhaust.

I took off the head and the gasket looks okay. But there appears to be little specks of carbon around the exhaust seat. The piston head doesn't seem to have an excess of carbon. There is a little side to side play in the valves. There is no scoring on the cylinder wall.

So a couple questions:

Can carbon cause the compression leak?

Can these valve seats be ground and reseated?

Is a little side to side play in the valves normal?

Thanks for your help.
Click to expand...
Yours and everyone else's engine manual states to de-carbon the cylinder/s and valves at x amount of time. They put it right next to cleaning the cooling fins YEARLY if not more often.


#23

K

kingjames1

Well, that wasn't an answer.

Will that divot, or whatever you call it, create a problem?


#24

S

slomo

kingjames1 said:
Well, that wasn't an answer.

Will that divot, or whatever you call it, create a problem?
Click to expand...
That YOU picked up on. Reread what you typed and what I typed again. Let it fester a bit.


#25

K

kingjames1

So you're saying poor maintenance caused that divot?


#26

K

kingjames1

The company that I bought my cylinder head for my Liberty said they believe it is combustion gases that can burn through aluminum. Another guy said it was just corrosion.

Just trying to find out if the new gasket I bought will be sufficient or do I need to get a new head or use RTV with the new gasket.


#27

S

SeniorCitizen

After cleaning the area thoroughly I'd reach for the J B Weld or equivalent then when cured file it off even with the surrounding surface .


#28

S

slomo

kingjames1 said:
Found this mower for free several years ago. It wouldn't start. Put in a new carb and it started right up. Ran it for a couple years but last year it had a hard time starting.

Yesterday I ran a leak down test and it said it was only 70%. I could also hear air coming out of the exhaust. Leaking ex valve.

I took off the head and the gasket looks okay. But there appears to be little specks of carbon around the exhaust seat. Again de-carbon the cylinder per your manual. The piston head doesn't seem to have an excess of carbon. There is a little side to side play in the valves. There is no scoring on the cylinder wall.

So a couple questions:

Can carbon cause the compression leak? Yes.

Can these valve seats be ground and reseated? Yes.

Is a little side to side play in the valves normal? How much is a little? If it rocks in the guide, and you see it with your eyes, the guide is shot.

Thanks for your help.
Click to expand...


#29

K

kingjames1

SeniorCitizen said:
After cleaning the area thoroughly I'd reach for the J B Weld or equivalent then when cured file it off even with the surrounding surface .
Click to expand...
Thank you. just don't want to put a lot of money into this. Not sure what a new head would cost. It seems to me RTV or JB Weld would work fine on a small engine like this.


#30

S

SeniorCitizen

I could be wrong but i doubt RTV would tolerate the heat . That info. may be in the literature on the tube .


#31

K

kingjames1

SeniorCitizen said:
I could be wrong but i doubt RTV would tolerate the heat . That info. may be in the literature on the tube .
Click to expand...
Ok


#32

RYANS'

RYANS'

kingjames1 said:
Ok, another question. Will this create a problem on this small engine? Noticed it when cleaning the head. Or should I use some RTV with the head gasket?View attachment 68199

Had this on my cylinder head on my Liberty though not as pronounced. It caused a tiny leak of coolant which set a code. Had to change the cylinder head.
Click to expand...
Have you seen farmcraft 101, on you tube. He sanded a head just by sticking a sand paper to a flat bench top. Nice pic.


#33

K

kingjames1

No. I'll have to watch that. Thanks.


#34

S

SeniorCitizen

Also a table saw etc. table or any other similar machine table will work to sand flat . A pencil marks may indicate how good you doing .


#35

B

bertsmobile1

It is a casting defect
They can actually move through the alloy when it gets hot enough
Flat heads usually do not have that much compression so it should not be a problem
IF it worries you then Devcon aluminium paste is the best filler
Next best is POR 15 metal filler
After that there are thousands of "liquid metals " that will do the job
Clean the surface fill the hole leave it a couple of weeks then file flat

OTOH and reasonable welder can put a dolop of weld in there for you .


#36

K

kingjames1

slomo said:
That YOU picked up on. Reread what you typed and what I typed again. Let it fester a bit.
Click to expand...
B&S website says to decarbon when needed. It doesn't say once a year. That requires removing the head according to the web site. There are no engine manuals available on the Support site. Only Parts and Owners manuals.

The fins stay clean since they are in a horizontal orientation.
bertsmobile1 said:
It is a casting defect
They can actually move through the alloy when it gets hot enough
Flat heads usually do not have that much compression so it should not be a problem
IF it worries you then Devcon aluminium paste is the best filler
Next best is POR 15 metal filler
After that there are thousands of "liquid metals " that will do the job
Clean the surface fill the hole leave it a couple of weeks then file flat

OTOH and reasonable welder can put a dolop of weld in there for you .
Click to expand...
Ok thanks.


#37

G

GearHead36

kingjames1 said:
B&S website says to decarbon when needed. It doesn't say once a year.
Click to expand...
That COULD be, potentially, never. If the engine is properly maintained, primarily the air filter, the engine won't carbon up. It will probably wear out before it gets carboned up. If the air filter is allowed to get really dirty, the problems snowball. Once the air filter gets so dirty, it will start sucking up oil into the airbox, making the air filter even more restrictive. This causes the engine to run really rich, causing carbon deposits, and a fouled plug. If I catch the air filter before it starts getting fouled with oil, i.e. the filter is dirty with dry dirt, I'll just blow it out with compressed air. Once the filter gets wet, it's done. Oil, gas, water, it doesn't matter. It gets replaced.


#38

K

kingjames1

GearHead36 said:
That COULD be, potentially, never. If the engine is properly maintained, primarily the air filter, the engine won't carbon up. It will probably wear out before it gets carboned up. If the air filter is allowed to get really dirty, the problems snowball. Once the air filter gets so dirty, it will start sucking up oil into the airbox, making the air filter even more restrictive. This causes the engine to run really rich, causing carbon deposits, and a fouled plug. If I catch the air filter before it starts getting fouled with oil, i.e. the filter is dirty with dry dirt, I'll just blow it out with compressed air. Once the filter gets wet, it's done. Oil, gas, water, it doesn't matter. It gets replaced.
Click to expand...
I noticed you can see the valves clearly with the spark plug out. Never noticed that. So it should be an easy check when looking for carbon buildup.

First time really working on a small engine other than replacing the carb

Thanks everyone.


#39

K

kingjames1

kingjames1 said:
I noticed you can see the valves clearly with the spark plug out. Never noticed that. So it should be an easy check when looking for carbon buildup.

First time really working on a small engine other than replacing the carb

Thanks everyone.
Click to expand...
Just writing this for all the other amateur's out there having this issue.

After pulling my hair out for the last couple months, and threatening to throw this mower out, I think I found the problem.

After replacing everything, cleaning out the carbon, lapping the valves, the mower started but still ran badly. It still smoked also. (Maybe that's what caused the carbon buildup.)

So I started studying Youtube videos and watched one guy talk about the automatic choke. He said a common mistake amateur's, like me, make is to thread the thermostat onto the automatic choke which will make it hard to start and run. So thinking back to last year, I remember I removed the muffler and the thermostat fell off. Don't remember why I did that. I threaded the thermostat onto the choke since that appeared to be the common sense procedure. Hence the hard starting and smoking.

So yesterday I removed it and this time didn't thread the thermostat onto the choke. It started on the first pull and didn't smoke.

Purr's like a kitten.


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