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2 Briggs V-Twin questions

Feb 8, 2017#1

Ronno6

I have always had to choke my B&S V-Twin 26hp to start , even when it is warmed up.
So. I cleaned/rebuilt the Nikki 2bbl carb.
Still needs to be choked to start, even when it has been running for a while.
Any suggestions as to what to look for?

During the rebuild process, I the 2 main jets fell out of the emulsification tube.(New O-rings needed, I suppose.)
I'm not the first one that has ever happened to.........
I have searched the forum to find out which jet goes where, as I understand that they are different.
No answer was ever given.
So, I ask anew: how does one tell which jet goes where??

Thanks.

Feb 8, 2017#2

pugaltitude

Start with model, type and code off of engine and try parts list or workshop manual.

Feb 8, 2017#3

Ronno6

pugaltitude said:
Start with model, type and code off of engine and try parts list or workshop manual.

The parts manual gives item #'s 117 and 117A.
There are part #'s but no way to tell which one of mine is which;
they don't give jet sizes...........

How poorly will it run with the jets reversed?

Feb 8, 2017#4

Ronno6

Boobala said:
You can give this a try ...there's 2 parts to this carburetor repair sheet

..............http://outdoorpowerinfo.com/repairs/briggs_intek_v-twin_carb.asp
at the bottom of the first page clik on the continue link...

Thanks. Been there, done that.
They really need pages 3 & 4, but don't have them

Feb 8, 2017#5

Boobala

You can give this a try ...there's 2 parts to this carburetor repair sheet

..............http://outdoorpowerinfo.com/repairs/briggs_intek_v-twin_carb.asp
at the bottom of the first page clik on the continue link...

Feb 8, 2017#6

I

ILENGINE

From what little information that I can dig up. It appears the jet with the smaller number should go to the number 1 cylinder, which is the one closest to the flywheel, normally located on the left side of the engine if looking at the heads.

Feb 8, 2017#7

Ronno6

Boobala said:
You can give this a try ...there's 2 parts to this carburetor repair sheet

..............http://outdoorpowerinfo.com/repairs/briggs_intek_v-twin_carb.asp
at the bottom of the first page clik on the continue link...

Looks strangely familiar....what am I missing here??

Feb 8, 2017#8

Ronno6

ILENGINE said:
From what little information that I can dig up. It appears the jet with the smaller number should go to the number 1 cylinder, which is the one closest to the flywheel, normally located on the left side of the engine if looking at the heads.

The cylinder you indicate is indeed the uppermost of the 2 cylinders.
(However, B&S labels it as the Right cylinder, according to markings on the carb casting.)
It makes sense that that one would get the smaller jet, as it may get cooled a bit better being closer to the flywheel.
In a V-twin motorcycle, the front cylinder, getting cooled better by being in front, gets the smaller jet.
The rear cyl gets the fatter jet to provide a richer mixture, offering more cooling.

Now, to determine which is which.
They drop down from the transfer tube and rub on the plastic part below, removing some information punched into the rim.

ed. Using the brightest light, and the most powerful magnifying glass I have, I THINK I read the following:
Jet #1 .114
Jet #2 .111

I'll give that a shot.

I had other used jets, and the engine is running seemingly fine with them installed the whatever way I did it, a 50% chance
of having done it correctly.
But, the o-rings on them are shot.
I'll take a look when the new jet o-rings arrive.

Feb 8, 2017#9

I

ILENGINE

If you stood the engine up on its tail and you were looking at the flywheel the number 1 would be on the right cylinder.

Feb 8, 2017#10

Ronno6

ILENGINE said:
If you stood the engine up on its tail and you were looking at the flywheel the number 1 would be on the right cylinder.

I accept that just fine.
That agrees with the orientation cast into the carb casting, the left and right cylinders are as viewed from the driver's seat.

At any rate. I will be orientating the jets so that the .111 supplies the Right cylinder, and the .114 does the Left.

Thanks.

Feb 8, 2017#11

Boobala

Thought your carb was same as mine...guess not ..... I tried to find info on a carb with 2 jets ... NOT this year !!!
anyway .. did a lil kickin around, came up with this manual, dont know if it's your engine type but it if you look on pages 12 & 13 of carb parts you will find many different jets.... item # 117 thru 118 ...Sorry I wasn't much help .. :frown::frown::frown: .. Boobala

............http://bsintek.basco.com/BriggsDocumentDisplay/18mnCFXRnfBhU7y.pdf

Feb 9, 2017#12

Ronno6

Boobala said:
Thought your carb was same as mine...guess not ..... I tried to find info on a carb with 2 jets ... NOT this year !!!
anyway .. did a lil kickin around, came up with this manual, dont know if it's your engine type but it if you look on pages 12 & 13 of carb parts you will find many different jets.... item # 117 thru 118 ...Sorry I wasn't much help .. :frown::frown::frown: .. Boobala

............http://bsintek.basco.com/BriggsDocumentDisplay/18mnCFXRnfBhU7y.pdf

Engine is mod. 446777
type 0316 E1

There are part numbers for the jets readily available, but nowhere can I find the sizes.........
Since the part #'s are not stamped into the jets, I need the sizes, which are stamped into the jets.

I have, with great effort, read the numbers 111 and 114 on the two jets (if there was a decimal point, it has worn off.)
Due to the lack of any information to the contrary, I have to conclude that the 111 is the smaller jet, to be installed on the right cyl,
and you can guess about the other............

Feb 9, 2017#13

Ronno6

ILENGINE said:
From what little information that I can dig up. It appears the jet with the smaller number should go to the number 1 cylinder, which is the one closest to the flywheel, normally located on the left side of the engine if looking at the heads.

I found this video:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...43E1F1410E483B2CD2F943E1F&fsscr=0&FORM=VDMCNL

It is VERY informative, but gives jet/cylinder that contradicts logic and the information you provide.
See the 3:45 mark

Now, as usual, I am confused again.............

Feb 9, 2017#14

Ronno6

Boobala said:
Thought your carb was same as mine...guess not ..... I tried to find info on a carb with 2 jets ... NOT this year !!!
anyway .. did a lil kickin around, came up with this manual, dont know if it's your engine type but it if you look on pages 12 & 13 of carb parts you will find many different jets.... item # 117 thru 118 ...Sorry I wasn't much help .. :frown::frown::frown: .. Boobala

............http://bsintek.basco.com/BriggsDocumentDisplay/18mnCFXRnfBhU7y.pdf

My carb is she same as one of the ones in that video which you originally linked.
http://outdoorpowerinfo.com/repairs/...-twin_carb.asp
I say one of them because they show 2 different carbs: one with the white transfer tube and 2 jets,
the other with the black transfer tube which has the main jet in the brass nozzle at the bottom of the carb (like their cutaway pic)
that is considerably different from mine. I actually have one of those laying around and may give it a try. but I think it may have been from
an engine of lower horsepower. That may either run lean or limit my HP.

So, now you know as much as me........

Feb 9, 2017#15

I

ILENGINE

Ronno6 said:
I found this video:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...43E1F1410E483B2CD2F943E1F&fsscr=0&FORM=VDMCNL

It is VERY informative, but gives jet/cylinder that contradicts logic and the information you provide.
See the 2:45 mark

Now, as usual, I am confused again.............

Where the confusion lies is Briggs refers to the L on the carb as cylinder #1 and the R side of carb as cylinder #2 in the manual I found dealing with a different engine, but the only one that talks about jet location. But on your engine the L on carb is cylinder #2 and the R on carb is cylinder #1. I did find one example on an engine were the big jet was on the L and the small jet was on the R

Feb 9, 2017#16

Ronno6

ILENGINE said:
Where the confusion lies is Briggs refers to the L on the carb as cylinder #1 and the R side of carb as cylinder #2 in the manual I found dealing with a different engine, but the only one that talks about jet location. But on your engine the L on carb is cylinder #2 and the R on carb is cylinder #1. I did find one example on an engine were the big jet was on the L and the small jet was on the R

The video only uses the L/R terminology.

Do I consider their jet orientation to be correct?

I am attempting to discuss with B&S, but as of this time, they have not contacted me back............

Feb 9, 2017#17

Ronno6

Well, all the technicians that acknowledge that the two jets ARE different (and, opinions vary on that...)
pretty much agree that the larger jet is for the right (passenger side) cyl and the smaller goes to the left.

Somewhat counter-intuitive, but that is the way the techs say they go...........

BTW......I received a reply from B&S, and they indicated that they cold not help me.
They designed it, but they apparently have no records as to how............

Feb 9, 2017#18

Ronno6

ILENGINE said:
Where the confusion lies is Briggs refers to the L on the carb as cylinder #1 and the R side of carb as cylinder #2 in the manual I found dealing with a different engine, but the only one that talks about jet location. But on your engine the L on carb is cylinder #2 and the R on carb is cylinder #1. I did find one example on an engine were the big jet was on the L and the small jet was on the R

From looking at the picture of a bare block, the #1 cylinder is on the "passenger" side which is the cylinder indicated by the "R" on the carb.
(and, of course, vice versa for the left cyl.) It goes without saying, but I just HAD to say it.........I'm just sayin'

And the polling of mechanics is unanimous......the larger jet is for the #1,right, passenger side cylinder.

Whew !! This has been exhausting!

Feb 9, 2017#19

Boobala

I say.. BULLXXXX on these Dip-sheets at Briggs, I think 1/2 ..NO.. 4/5 of these so called engineers are just trying to keep their jobs during these times of cut-backs, they come up with some off-the -wall sheet and convince upper management that they have "just" created a new item or way of doing something.

I cant believe they leave EVERYBODY in the dark, no service bulletins ??... no addendums for the service manuals..??
no dealers service bulletins ... right there tells me ... SOMEONE !! has got their head inside, of where you would use Preparation H for an aggravating situation !!! In this day of INSTANT communication, digital photos, and everything
almost conveyed instantly... I cannot see any plausible excuse for the lack of information about the changes to this
model carburetor. ............:smiley_aafz: ..:thumbdown:..

Feb 9, 2017#20

Ronno6

Boobala said:
I say.. BULLXXXX on these Dip-sheets at Briggs, I think 1/2 ..NO.. 4/5 of these so called engineers are just trying to keep their jobs during these times of cut-backs, they come up with some off-the -wall sheet and convince upper management that they have "just" created a new item or way of doing something.

I cant believe they leave EVERYBODY in the dark, no service bulletins ??... no addendums for the service manuals..??
no dealers service bulletins ... right there tells me ... SOMEONE !! has got their head inside, of where you would use Preparation H for an aggravating situation !!! In this day of INSTANT communication, digital photos, and everything
almost conveyed instantly... I cannot see any plausible excuse for the lack of information about the changes to this
model carburetor. ............:smiley_aafz: ..:thumbdown:..

Please tell us how you really feel......

Anyway, I responded t B&S with the sarcastic note I put at the end of a prior post..they designed and made it, but can't tell me how..
That prompted the lower-level email routine denialist to "escalate my request" to someone up the ladder. Interesting...
We'll see what happens next.
Stay tuned...........

Feb 10, 2017#21

M

Mad Mackie

Just did some research and here is what I've found.
All Intek, ELS twin cylinder engines are vertical shaft engines.
Viewing the engine from the cylinder heads/carb/intake, the left cylinder, which is closer to the flywheel, is cylinder #1.The right cylinder is #2.
As the carb is installed in a reversed position on these engines, viewing the carb from the side where the air comes into the carb, sets up the carb barrels in the opposite positions. Still viewing the carb from the incoming air side, the R/H barrel/high speed jet feeds #1 cylinder and the L/H barrel/high speed jet feeds #2 cylinder. Some Nikki carbs are marked as viewed from the incoming air side, the left is R and the right is L. This is due to the carb being installed in the reverse position.
With this in mind, the emulsion tube on the carb installs only in one position, the smaller jet is installed in the R/H hole of the emulsion tube and feeds #1 cylinder, and the L/H hole feeds #2 cylinder. Generally #1 cylinder is fed with the smaller sized jet.
The parts manual for your 446777-0316 engine is available on the B&S website and downloadable. 0316 is the type number of your engine, make sure that you find the correct type number applications in the parts manual.
You need to know the date code of your engine in order to find the correct part numbers of the jets for your engine as the jet part numbers change between date codes. Where the B&S parts manual for the Nikki carb says (Standard) (Left) (Nikki) this is the jet that feeds #1 cylinder on the engine. Similarly for the #2 cylinder.

Feb 10, 2017#22

Ronno6

Mad Mackie said:
Just did some research and here is what I've found.
All Intek, ELS twin cylinder engines are vertical shaft engines.
Viewing the engine from the cylinder heads/carb/intake, the left cylinder, which is closer to the flywheel, is cylinder #1.The right cylinder is #2.
As the carb is installed in a reversed position on these engines, viewing the carb from the side where the air comes into the carb, sets up the carb barrels in the opposite positions. Still viewing the carb from the incoming air side, the R/H barrel/high speed jet feeds #1 cylinder and the L/H barrel/high speed jet feeds #2 cylinder. Some Nikki carbs are marked as viewed from the incoming air side, the left is R and the right is L. This is due to the carb being installed in the reverse position.
With this in mind, the emulsion tube on the carb installs only in one position, the smaller jet is installed in the R/H hole of the emulsion tube and feeds #1 cylinder, and the L/H hole feeds #2 cylinder. Generally #1 cylinder is fed with the smaller sized jet.
The parts manual for your 446777-0316 engine is available on the B&S website and downloadable. 0316 is the type number of your engine, make sure that you find the correct type number applications in the parts manual.
You need to know the date code of your engine in order to find the correct part numbers of the jets for your engine as the jet part numbers change between date codes. Where the B&S parts manual for the Nikki carb says (Standard) (Left) (Nikki) this is the jet that feeds #1 cylinder on the engine. Similarly for the #2 cylinder.

Thanks for your in depth response.

I have found your ground work to be true. From the operator's seat, the #1cyl is on the right, and agrees with the carb casting.

But, now confusion sets in, as every mechanic whom I asked said that the larger jet feeds the #1 (right) cyl.(Except the mechanic who
said the jets were both the same, and he'd been doing this for a long time....)

True, the emulsion tube only installs one way, but what is lacking in your description is the orientation of the carb when installing the jets.
When you say smaller jet in the R/H hole, do you mean R/H as indicated by the R/H designation on the top of the carb?

Again, logic indicates that, as the L/H or #2 cyl is farther from the fan, it may require a slightly richer mixture in order to be properly cooled.
However, this flies in the face of the info supplied by the 4 mechanics who described otherwise. Be that the case,
your instructions make sense, and the mechanics with whom I spoke all got it backwards, as well as this video:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...43E1F1410E483B2CD2F943E1F&fsscr=0&FORM=VDMCNL

Or, does the #1 cyl need a richer mix because the #2 cyl gets fresher air, and the #1 gets air that has been heated by the #2 cyl?
Back in my Yamaha V-twin days, the cyl receiving the fresher cooling air got the leaner mixture.

As it will be a few days til my jet O-rings arrive, I have time to be further confused.

I still want to know how the engine will run with the jets reversed................

Feb 10, 2017#23

I

ILENGINE

Mad Mackie said:
Just did some research and here is what I've found.
All Intek, ELS twin cylinder engines are vertical shaft engines.
Viewing the engine from the cylinder heads/carb/intake, the left cylinder, which is closer to the flywheel, is cylinder #1.The right cylinder is #2.
As the carb is installed in a reversed position on these engines, viewing the carb from the side where the air comes into the carb, sets up the carb barrels in the opposite positions. Still viewing the carb from the incoming air side, the R/H barrel/high speed jet feeds #1 cylinder and the L/H barrel/high speed jet feeds #2 cylinder. Some Nikki carbs are marked as viewed from the incoming air side, the left is R and the right is L. This is due to the carb being installed in the reverse position.
With this in mind, the emulsion tube on the carb installs only in one position, the smaller jet is installed in the R/H hole of the emulsion tube and feeds #1 cylinder, and the L/H hole feeds #2 cylinder. Generally #1 cylinder is fed with the smaller sized jet.
The parts manual for your 446777-0316 engine is available on the B&S website and downloadable. 0316 is the type number of your engine, make sure that you find the correct type number applications in the parts manual.
You need to know the date code of your engine in order to find the correct part numbers of the jets for your engine as the jet part numbers change between date codes. Where the B&S parts manual for the Nikki carb says (Standard) (Left) (Nikki) this is the jet that feeds #1 cylinder on the engine. Similarly for the #2 cylinder.

Looks like we came to the same conclusion when I said the small jet feeds #1 cylinder. Which in the OP case would be the R side of his carb.

Feb 10, 2017#24

Ronno6

ILENGINE said:
Looks like we came to the same conclusion when I said the small jet feeds #1 cylinder. Which in the OP case would be the R side of his carb.

OK.

Is there documentation for this?

I have been able to squint at a pic of the L jet, which used to be a part# 699732, now 792296 and it is a #118.
That is larger than either of mine.
This being the case, I would have to believe that the R jet would be smaller........ but, I have not been able
to verify that in a pic.

Now, does that mean that my #111 and #114 jets are too small for some reason??

Do you know how poorly the engine will run with the jets reversed?
Will it be obvious?

Feb 10, 2017#25

M

Mad Mackie

I'm not sure if most folks would ever notice a difference in performance, but in time a lean condition would show up in the #2 cylinder if it had the smaller jet and this will increase combustion chamber temperatures possibly to a point of damaging the piston, rings and valves.
I have a older version of the Intek twin service manual and it only covers up to 5/99 model years and only the single main jet Nikki carb.
I suspect that the updated version which covers the 446700 series engines will show the newer Nikki double main jet carb.
With the emulsion tube installed on your carb and viewing the carb on the incoming air side, the R/H barrel feeds the L/H cylinder on the engine and this is #1 cylinder.
The engine as an assembly is viewed and identified with #1 cylinder to the left, #2 cylinder to the right and the intake/carb in the center. This views the carb from its rear and the left barrel feeds the left cylinder which is #1.
With the carb removed from the intake and viewed from the incoming air side, then the R/H barrel and jet feed the left hand cylinder.
This is indicated in my Vanguard service manual for the vertical shaft Vanguard engines.
I have ordered a new B&S Intek twin service manual which is P/N 273521. My current Intek manual is 273521-5/99 which is old. If you purchase a service manual make sure that the date is later than 5/99.
I have a 30 HP Briggs Commercial Turf engine on my Scag Tiger Cub and need the updated manual.
This was a repower on my Tiger Cub as the original 44P777 engine burned up #1 cylinder, maybe the jets got swapped although I never had the carb apart on this engine. It only had 70 PSI and serious blowby on #1 cylinder when a leakdown test was done. This engine had 472 hours on it and I decided to replace it rather than overhaul it.

Feb 10, 2017#26

Boobala

WOW ......we gonna have a library here pretty soon.. !!!
more info.. I figure the P/N of the jet determines which side it's for ( R or L )
According to the attached part list RIGHT side is # 2 ( I CANNOT guarantee the accuracy of this ( its from Ereplacementparts.com ) ALSO these p/n's are random ... be sure to use YOUR numbers !!
but I've never had a problem with anything I ordered from them either !!

According to the attached video.. @ approx. ( 4:27 min ) it shows markings on the carb body for R & L ..

I think after all is said & done ..... there are at least a few folks who would like to see some Briggs Engineers acquire some severe bruising
about their face , neck, arms, & chest inflicted by a ball-bat .. and of course there would NO information as to who, what, where & when !!! :laughing::laughing:

.............

...............https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZBaIcC_43k

Feb 10, 2017#27

Ronno6

Well, here's what I have found this morning:

The item 117 on the parts list is new # 792296, and it feeds the left cylinder. It is now a jet #118
And item 117A feeds the right cylinder, and it is a jet #114.
These were obtained from squinting at photos of parts on websites.
Or, if anybody has in stock and would care to confirm........

Of course, should B&S decide to confirm or deny,all would be revealed.
The parts pic does not show a line to the emulsion tube to show an installation path.
I wold have to conclude that the R/L designation would coincide with the carb nomenclature on the top,(?)

My jets are #114 and #111.

Maybe I need to update to the larger jets??

And, to FURTHER mess me up, the part #'s in the parts sheets are for engines AFTER my date code, with NO info for MY engine being provided.
They list afrer date code 04080300 and mine is 040103YG

Maybe I should just order a set and hope for the best?

Feb 10, 2017#28

Ronno6

Mad Mackie said:
I'm not sure if most folks would ever notice a difference in performance, but in time a lean condition would show up in the #2 cylinder if it had the smaller jet and this will increase combustion chamber temperatures possibly to a point of damaging the piston, rings and valves.
I have a older version of the Intek twin service manual and it only covers up to 5/99 model years and only the single main jet Nikki carb.
I suspect that the updated version which covers the 446700 series engines will show the newer Nikki double main jet carb.
With the emulsion tube installed on your carb and viewing the carb on the incoming air side, the R/H barrel feeds the L/H cylinder on the engine and this is #1 cylinder.
The engine as an assembly is viewed and identified with #1 cylinder to the left, #2 cylinder to the right and the intake/carb in the center. This views the carb from its rear and the left barrel feeds the left cylinder which is #1.
With the carb removed from the intake and viewed from the incoming air side, then the R/H barrel and jet feed the left hand cylinder.
This is indicated in my Vanguard service manual for the vertical shaft Vanguard engines.
I have ordered a new B&S Intek twin service manual which is P/N 273521. My current Intek manual is 273521-5/99 which is old. If you purchase a service manual make sure that the date is later than 5/99.
I have a 30 HP Briggs Commercial Turf engine on my Scag Tiger Cub and need the updated manual.
This was a repower on my Tiger Cub as the original 44P777 engine burned up #1 cylinder, maybe the jets got swapped although I never had the carb apart on this engine. It only had 70 PSI and serious blowby on #1 cylinder when a leakdown test was done. This engine had 472 hours on it and I decided to replace it rather than overhaul it.

Now you're really trying to mess me up......
My engine, when viewed from the front (valve covers and carb fuel inlet pointing towards me) shows the #1cyl, to the left, but the carb designation for that side is Right.

You indicate the possibility of a hot running #2 cyl.
That would indicate the fat jet on the #1 cyl being incorrect.

So, fat jet to #2 (right as viewed form valve covers/fuel inlet side?) is correct?

Jeez, my head is spinnin' 'round........

Feb 10, 2017#29

Ronno6

NOW, we enter a NEW variable into the equation: DATE CODE.

The nomenclature for DIFFERENT jets is listed as 04080300

MY date code is 040103YG
The parts lists for MY date code indicate that I use 2 standard jets...........BOTH THE SAME !!

The 2 jets that fell out of my carb ARE different!

MAN, I wish these things hadn't fallen out..........

Feb 10, 2017#30

I

ILENGINE

I just got off the phone with my distributor tech support. and was told take the tube that the jets fit in. It has two small holes and two big holes. turn the piece so that the small holes face your chest, the big jet goes in the left side.

Feb 10, 2017#31

Ronno6

ILENGINE said:
I just got off the phone with my distributor tech support. and was told take the tube that the jets fit in. It has two small holes and two big holes. turn the piece so that the small holes face your chest, the big jet goes in the left side.

Gotcha, thanks.

But, this all may be for naught, as according to my engine's date code, both jets should be the same part # 630232.
Sure wish I could find out what size THAT one is.............
But, mine definitely has 2 different jets, but no telling who had done what to it in the past...........

I gotta go for a bicycle ride to clear my head..

Feb 10, 2017#32

I

ILENGINE

If the carb had been replaced in the past if could of been superceded to the newer two different jet carb.

Feb 10, 2017#33

Ronno6

ILENGINE said:
If the carb had been replaced in the past if could of been superceded to the newer two different jet carb.

That is, of course, a possibility.

I finally received rationale for 2 different jets:
Since the #2 cyl is lower, the intake runner to it is longer, having a downward section to get to the lower intake port.
That is what necessitates a slightly richer mixture.

As B&S engineers saw fit to make a design change, something that usually does not happen for no reason, I would
think that it would behoove me to go with different jets.
Now that I know which one goes where and why, I now need to decide on what sizes to use.

As I previously stated, mine are sizes 111 and 114.
The new jets appear to be 114 and 118, but that relies on pictures on websites that I do not know if I should rely on or not.
Would I see an increase n performance with slightly larger jets, or is the airflow calibrated for the original jets?

Sometimes it is hell being inside my head......just like Sheldon Cooper!
I tend to overthink things sometimes (is anyone surprised??)

Feb 10, 2017#34

I

ILENGINE

Tech guy just called me back after doing more research and found the rule of thumb is the small number jet always goes to the left in the emulsion tube, and don't worry about what cylinder it corresponds with. And at this point I am not sure if that may be the opposite I was told earlier. My tech guy pulled both jets off the shelf to examine them. And it appears the smaller number jet in this case may be the larger jet.

Feb 10, 2017#35

Ronno6

ILENGINE said:
If the carb had been replaced in the past if could of been superceded to the newer two different jet carb.

That apparently IS the situation, as jet #690232 is a SCREW IN jet, that is used on the older single-jet carb.

Now. everything is starting to make sense.

It is becoming more apparent that my carb has been changed,
but now I enter into the size quandary............

I guess I'll use the ones that came out of the carb and hope for the best.
Or, I do have a 1 jet carb. Maybe switch back?
My engine is hard to start with the carb that is on it.
Maybe the older one would be better?

Feb 10, 2017#36

M

Mad Mackie

I would install the new jets as many Intek/ELS twin engines had early failures do to the plastic intake manifold warping and leaking, leaking around the carb air horn that connects to the air filter housing and possibly too lean fuel/air mixture from incorrect carb jetting.

Feb 10, 2017#37

Ronno6

ILENGINE said:
Tech guy just called me back after doing more research and found the rule of thumb is the small number jet always goes to the left in the emulsion tube, and don't worry about what cylinder it corresponds with. And at this point I am not sure if that may be the opposite I was told earlier. My tech guy pulled both jets off the shelf to examine them. And it appears the smaller number jet in this case may be the larger jet.

Well, isn't that kinda silly, depending on which way the carb is pointed ?
Or, is he falling back to his previously stated emulsion tube orientation?

His prior statement had the larger jet for the #2 cyl, and that makes sense to me.

Now, he has again thrown a wrench into the works.

Did your guy give you those jet #'s perchance?

However, the previously linked vid indicates jet size increases as the jet # increases.

I don't know how .003 or so difference is discernible with the nude eye....

According to the parts diagrams, the left jet is not #792296, which is a #118
The right jet is the old # 699733 which is a #114.

That is how I intend to proceed........

Feb 10, 2017#38

I

ILENGINE

It looks like the only thing that can be confirmed at this point is the part number of the jets are 699732 and 699733 and the 699732 goes on the left side and the 699733 goes on the right. And I think between the two conversations I have with him, I think what he told me the first time is not the same as he told me the second time. And I have always been lead to believe that the larger number on a jet corresponded to a larger jet size. So we now know left from right, but don't know if the 699732 is the small jet or the big one.

Feb 10, 2017#39

Ronno6

ILENGINE said:
It looks like the only thing that can be confirmed at this point is the part number of the jets are 699732 and 699733 and the 699732 goes on the left side and the 699733 goes on the right. And I think between the two conversations I have with him, I think what he told me the first time is not the same as he told me the second time. And I have always been lead to believe that the larger number on a jet corresponded to a larger jet size. So we now know left from right, but don't know if the 699732 is the small jet or the big one.

That is correct....almost.
699732 has been superseded by p/n 792296.

I do not know the jet #'s (111, 114,118 etc) but, from what I can find, the 792296 is #118 and the right jet, 699733 is #114.
I have not found a # for the old 699732.

Feb 10, 2017#40

I

ILENGINE

My parts distributor show the 699732 and the 792296 both as valid numbers and both in stock. So they haven't superceded one to the other yet.

Feb 10, 2017#41

Ronno6

ILENGINE said:
My parts distributor show the 699732 and the 792296 both as valid numbers and both in stock. So they haven't superceded one to the other yet.

Certain parts lists say 792296 (replaces 699732.)

See item #117 here:

http://www.partstree.com/parts/brig...c-starter/carburetor-kit-carburetor-overhaul/

Strange. But, then again, fitting.........

I would still like to know the numbers stamped onto the jets themselves.
That info is not available on the information super highway.
I guess I'll just have to purchase 1 of each to find out.....

Feb 10, 2017#42

Ronno6

I just got off the phone with a B&S Platinum dealer.
He was on his "Power Portal" and saw the 2 jet setup for my engine, but without any date code reference.

I was discussing the "used before or after date code 04080300) regarding the jet system.
He said my engine came with the 2 jet setup from the factory, per hes diagram.
Date code didn't matter.

I recounted the info off the Partstree sheet referenced earlier regarding the date code and the parts used before and after that date code,
and he flatly rejected such a notion! He indicated that his parts list was gospel, and that is that!
He would not accept the old 1 jet, black transfer tube setup being used on my engine. Period.

I pretty much give up.
I'm going to buy 2 new jets and put the larger jet on the #1 cylinder and go mulch some leaves...............

Feb 10, 2017#43

I

ILENGINE

They used two different carb part numbers depending on date code, and the old carb now supercedes to the carb with the newer date code. My parts page should be the same as his parts page, because Briggs uses 1 company to distribute nationwide. the carb used on the earlier date code is a single jet carb so he is not looking at the entire parts page. And both carbs are shown on the same page of the IPL.

It also looks like the engines in your series. The 446777 engines below type number 1188 use 699732 jet and the engines above that number use the 792296 jet so it will probably supercede to the other number like you indicated when the current stock runs out. Right now my distributor is showing 473 of the 699732 and around 347 of the 792296 so it may be awhile.

Feb 10, 2017#44

Ronno6

Thanks for all your help.................you and everybody else!

Whew! I'm tired of typin'..............

Feb 11, 2017#45

Ronno6

As the ultimate test, after installing the jets in the manner I stated, I'll run the engine and perform a comparative temperature test on the 2 cylinders.

That oughta tell the tale.......

Feb 11, 2017#46

M

motoman

My dyt 4000 Craftsman cyl #1 pushed an exh guide early on so I started looking at head and oil temps as many on this forum know. Cyl #2 has never given any problem , 2004 model , umpteen hours. Cyl # 1 head replaced once and gasket a second time. Head temp at plug measured 305F in summer with bagger. Oil temp always ramped to 280f-295F on gauge, even with oil cooler and fan (fan not optimized). BTW the improved Intek in my new Husky "seems" cooler-separate thread.

The jet numbers you ref remind me of a side draft Weber DCOE carb I had for years. The Intek numbers are very close to the metric 115 mains in the Weber . I suppose you know that is probably .115 mm which is a tenth of .039" or about .004" (check me). The difference between 115 and 118 is thus very small indeed. No one has mentioned the abrasive effects of gasoline which opens the jet orifices. On such a primitive engine it is hard to imagine heat difference that would affect the integrity of the engine as compared to improper oil , level, clogged fins etc.

Maybe this blather will inject new life into this interesting thread. Please tell me where I have gone wrong.

Bring all counts of pushed guides and which cylinder. Don't hear any plug color read differences.....?????

Feb 11, 2017#47

M

Mad Mackie

I don't know how B&S identifies their carb jet sizes, but here is a Decimal Equivalents chart, Wire gauge-Letter Metric Fractional chart.
If in fact the numbers 114, 118 and so forth indicate the jet size then I think that these numbers are interpreted as 1.14 MM
The only B&S carb jet that I have in my stash is for an 8 HP single cylinder Intek with a Nikki carb that is on my wood chipper. This jet has a part number, but it will pass a # 65 drill bit(.0350") thru it but a # 64 drill bit(.0360") will not go thru it.
With this in mind, as the Nikki carb on the 446700 engine is two single barrel carbs combined into one housing, then the individual jets will be larger and in the 1.15-1.20 MM range.
Mad Mackie is going to have another adult beverage and then retire from this thread!!!

Feb 12, 2017#48

I

ILENGINE

From what I have drug out of the mud on some other forums, the jet sizes are in the neighborhood of .042 and .044

Feb 12, 2017#49

Ronno6

motoman said:
My dyt 4000 Craftsman cyl #1 pushed an exh guide early on so I started looking at head and oil temps as many on this forum know. Cyl #2 has never given any problem , 2004 model , umpteen hours. Cyl # 1 head replaced once and gasket a second time. Head temp at plug measured 305F in summer with bagger. Oil temp always ramped to 280f-295F on gauge, even with oil cooler and fan (fan not optimized). BTW the improved Intek in my new Husky "seems" cooler-separate thread.

The jet numbers you ref remind me of a side draft Weber DCOE carb I had for years. The Intek numbers are very close to the metric 115 mains in the Weber . I suppose you know that is probably .115 mm which is a tenth of .039" or about .004" (check me). The difference between 115 and 118 is thus very small indeed. No one has mentioned the abrasive effects of gasoline which opens the jet orifices. On such a primitive engine it is hard to imagine heat difference that would affect the integrity of the engine as compared to improper oil , level, clogged fins etc.

Maybe this blather will inject new life into this interesting thread. Please tell me where I have gone wrong. Bring all counts of pushed guides and which cylinder. Don't hear any plug color read differences.....?????

Gotta be a reason for the 2 different sizes.
As indicated before, my Yamaha V-Twin had a leaner jet for the front cyl, which received fresh cooling air, and a richer jet for the rear cyl, which received cooling air that had been heated by the front cyl.
I do not conceive a similar rationale for the Intek, as the horizontal cyl configuration pretty much assures both cyls a fresh supply of air.

The only notion that I can begin to accept is that cyl #2, being lower than cyl #1, has a longer intake runner. I'm not exactly sure as to why that requires a tad richer mixture, but it is the only thing I can see.

Maybe if a B&S engineer ever calls, I can get some answers and return to a peaceful night's sleep.....

Feb 12, 2017#50

Ronno6

Mad Mackie said:
I don't know how B&S identifies their carb jet sizes, but here is a Decimal Equivalents chart, Wire gauge-Letter Metric Fractional chart.
If in fact the numbers 114, 118 and so forth indicate the jet size then I think that these numbers are interpreted as 1.14 MM
The only B&S carb jet that I have in my stash is for an 8 HP single cylinder Intek with a Nikki carb that is on my wood chipper. This jet has a part number, but it will pass a # 65 drill bit(.0350") thru it but a # 64 drill bit(.0360") will not go thru it.
With this in mind, as the Nikki carb on the 446700 engine is two single barrel carbs combined into one housing, then the individual jets will be larger and in the 1.15-1.20 MM range.
Mad Mackie is going to have another adult beverage and then retire from this thread!!!

My preferred adult beverage is Yuengling Traditional Lager......

ILENGINE said:
From what I have drug out of the mud on some other forums, the jet sizes are in the neighborhood of .042 and .044

Both make some sense.
Thanks!

Feb 12, 2017#51

Ronno6

I still seek ideas on the constant necessity of choking to start....even when warm.

I have postulated the theory that, as the jet O-rings do not hold the jets in place and allow them to drop down til the plastic shutoff solenoid sleeve stops them from falling out completely, the fuel can circumvent the jet orifices.
Doe to lower engine vacuum thru the carb generated at low starting RPMs, there is not enough suction to pull the fuel up thru the transfer tube and allow the engine to start. Kind of akin to drawing liquid up thru a hose vs a straw. The straw is much easier.........

I will see if this condition improves after installing new jet O-rings.

Feb 12, 2017#52

M

motoman

Thanks for the corrections. It has been over 40 years since I fiddled with the 115's . Perhaps , indeed, my take of .115 mm is wrong as that is a tiny opening . I guess maybe 1.15 mm might work better with the consensus that the jet hole is about .040", or 1.0 mm. Still, then, the distinction of 1.14 vs even 1.18 seems insignificant . Before emissions (on auto carbs) the "accelerator pump" could often be used for cold start. A jab on the accelerator pedal sent a squirt-gun stream of raw gas into the intake throat. No such function on the tractor engines which do not need to accelerate at high speeds ? I should not say this , but my dyt 4000 choke has never failed to start the Intek in 13 years with about 5-8 rotations from cold. I use sta-bil and tractor is garaged. Carb never apart , 10% ethanol. Also( just lucky?) old Intek always starts from hot without choke.

Feb 13, 2017#53

M

Mad Mackie

My Scag Tiger Cub with the original B&S engine 44P777 and the repower engine 49M977 need choke for hot restarts.
My Hustler X-ONE with a Kawasaki FX730V of 2012 vintage never needs choke for a hot restart.
The horizontal shaft 18 B&S Vanguard on my GT seldom needs choke for a hot restart.
The 8 HP Intek on my wood chipper needs choke for a hot restart.
Go figure!!!:confused2:

Feb 13, 2017#54

Ronno6

For grins and giggles I purchased a cadaver (used) carb off an auction site.
The carb was said to have "worked good" when removed from the engine.
Maybe so, but, it was missing the 2 main jets!
"Never had apart" was the response from the seller.

"No way that motor ran well w/o main jets," I told hem, and sent pix.

Now we wait.....

ed...the seller is a stand up guy. He is sending an emulsion tube that is populated w/jets.
So, all may end well after all....

Feb 13, 2017#55

Ronno6

Well, ALRIGHtY,THEN.................

I have THE definitive answer from Briggs & Stratton:
(In case anybody wants to know..)

Drum roll,please.................................................

The V-Twin carburetors were redesigned from the 1 jet model to the 2 jet model mostly for emissions reasons (Thank you, EPA)
And,FWIW, should you have a carb using the older 1 jet system, no reason (other than emissions) not to use it.

These carbs use jets of 2 different sizes due to a phenomenon known as "Cylinder Lag."
What the heck is "Cylinder LAG?" one might ask..........
I'm sure MOST of y'all know...................
But, for those who don't (like me prior to date code 021317

Cylinder Lag is the reduced power output of the,shall we say, recessive cylinder due to the position of its
connecting rod on the crankshaft being behind the dominant cylinder's respective position.
Briggs always works off the #1 cylinder; it is the dominant cyl.
This being the case, as the #2 fires in short order after #1, its realized power output is somewhat less than good ol' #1.
Hence, in order to minimize emissions.............#2 cyl's main metering jet is a tad leaner than #1's jet.
The B&S Tech verified that my #111 jet is B&S p/n 699732 for the LEFT (#2)cyl;
jet #114 is p/n 699733 for the RIGHT (#1) cyl.

So, turns out that all the mechanics I had talked to were correct, and now I understand how come!

Mystery solved!
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

BTW, the reason why carb kits are SO expensive in this day and age is that they have been developed to better withstand ethanol gas.
Thanks again, EPA.
Fortunately, I live where non-ethanol gas is plentiful and not terribly expensive (relatively speaking,) but, I still
gotta pay thru the schnozzola for carb kits..........

Feb 16, 2017#56

Ronno6

After finally amassing the bits and pieces I needed to do the carb once and for all, I opened it up again yesterday.
Careful removal of the float bowl with the carb inverted revealed that, even though the o-rings were brittle, the plastic sleeve between the shut off solenoid and the transfer tube held the jets neatly in place. This provided me with the opportunity to see if I had installed the jets in their proper positions.
Though it was a 50-50 shot, of course, I got it backwards.
So, after righting the carb and allowing the jets to fall out (they did,,,) I installed some new o-rings and put it all back together.
The end result: no apparent change in either the starting or running of the engine......
But, at least I have increased my knowledge base.....

As for the used carb I purchased, the seller sent me another transfer tube with jets installed. Of course, they needed o-rings.

So, the sheet metal is back on, new drive belt and snug steering.
I'm ready for Spring...........

Mar 5, 2018#57

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Ok I am gonna reopen this thread............ Here it is 2018 March 4th....

I am working on a V Twin Briggs with a Nikki 2 barrel carb, running way toooo rich... Plugs getting sooty and all Dat good stuff... Hammering more that when I was was framing houses for a living........

The numbers on the jets, which are MICROscopic are 118 on the left and 122 on the right...... If that's the right order....

I do know the holes are different sizes in the jets... 1 for L and 1 for right........

When I took this carb apart the old gaskets were NOT cleaned off the carb body at all...... A complete mess all in all....
The choke spring was out of place and not working right..... A O ring missing from inside the carb for the tube and bowl where they meet...............

I need to read the first part of this thread, since I just scanned the last couple pages........

Mar 5, 2018#58

Boobala

Hey there Bo, here's some info. on the carb., AND a place to buy the main-jet o-rings is on the you tube page (in the text) and near the end of the video also,

https://ruclip.com/video/I_k1ystbSW...und-on-briggs-and-stratton-intec-engines.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPWul3T0fRE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jvnu_eEGXRM ********* Just found NEWER vids, .. & video of the 3 kits from this place *******

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPWul3T0fRE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jvnu_eEGXRM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBQyEJGBmxI

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Briggs-Str...r-Tube-O-Ring-Service-Kit-54832-/172727245163 .. Just located this guys site,on EBay .. CLICK on... see other items while there, to see other kits and o-rings

Mar 5, 2018#59

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Thanks Boo,,,,,,,,,,

I need the O rings for the Jets though.... I can get all the other stuff in this guys kit with the regular 75 dollar kit LOL from my Briggs account...

Sorry for the confusion in my post. I was tired and typing too fast.... Those are great vids and the guy is making good money on those kits, Which they are cheaper than Briggs for those MAIN Parts...

I seen a video a long time ago about a guy showing how to install the O rings real easy on the Jets. He had a link for the O rings.... I cannot find that video for the life or death of me LOL....

Thanks again Boo...........

Mar 6, 2018#60

Ronno6

Hey, Beaux,

These are the O-rings I purchased from McMaster Carr for the main jets:
2mm i.d. 4mm o.d. Durometer 70A (Medium) ASTM D2000, SAE J200 -20° to 250° Black 100ea. 9262K101 6.26/100

These differ dimensionally from those shown in the video, but they worked just fine.
They are also Buna-n rather than Viton.

Seems to me that I used an easy method to install them.
It involved rolling an O-ring onto a small round object, then rolling onto the jet.
I saw it on a video somewhere too.
I'll look for it.

The last gasket set I purchased was from Home Depot. It cost about $50.00
Gasket sets gone sky high due to the materials necessary to stand up to ethanol...........your EPA at work.
I have not used ethanol gas in my mowers since moving to Mississippi 3 1/2 years ago.
I wish I could purchase older gasket sets..........

Mar 6, 2018#61

Ronno6

See this video:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...B2CD2F943E1F1410E483B2CD2F943E1F&&FORM=VRDGAR

FF to about 4:15 mark and he explains how to install the O-ring onto the jet.

Mar 6, 2018#62

Boobala

Here's the video of the O-Rings the guy used for the main Jets ......

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...E10D8D863A9A9CDF18ACE10D8D863A9A&&FORM=VDRVRV

in the following pic from the video you can read the package info, of the o-rings he's using...

This should be where and what he ordered..

I think it's P/N 9263K546

PLEASE correct, .. if this is wrong !

Mar 6, 2018#63

Ronno6

Boobala said:
Here's the video of the O-Rings the guy used for the main Jets ......

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...E10D8D863A9A9CDF18ACE10D8D863A9A&&FORM=VDRVRV

in the following pic from the video you can read the package info, of the o-rings he's using...

View attachment 36183

This should be where and what he ordered.. View attachment 36184 I think it's P/N 9263K546

PLEASE correct, .. if this is wrong !

The ones I used were .5mm smaller in I.D and O.D.
They fit the grooves fine and worked.
I'm sure his will as well.

Mar 6, 2018#64

Boobala

Ronno6 said:
The ones I used were .5mm smaller in I.D and O.D.
They fit the grooves fine and worked.
I'm sure his will as well.

That guy on E-Bay is raping the hell outa folks, AND the S&H !! He should develop testicular Cancer !! ..

..:thumbdown:

Mar 6, 2018#65

Ronno6

Boobala said:
That guy on E-Bay is raping the hell outa folks, AND the S&H !! He should develop testicular Cancer !! ....:thumbdown:

It's called "capitalism"

He figgered it out when others didn't have the skills. He feels he should reap some benefit.

I have the opposite problem.
I work on bicycles and mowers for friends and neighbors, but cannot ever bring myself to charge enough $$$ for a profit.
Not interested ion any off the street customers.
I dunna wanna take the bread out of the mouths who do it fer a livin'............
I would go broke if I was in business for myself...

Now I'm out in the garage and attic runin' wirin' fer my openers........
Nice day fer it,tho.

Mar 6, 2018#66

M

motoman

you go ronnno!

Mar 6, 2018#67

Boobala

Ronno6 said:
It's called "capitalism"

He figgered it out when others didn't have the skills. He feels he should reap some benefit.

I have the opposite problem.
I work on bicycles and mowers for friends and neighbors, but cannot ever bring myself to charge enough $$$ for a profit.
Not interested ion any off the street customers.
I dunna wanna take the bread out of the mouths who do it fer a livin'............
I would go broke if I was in business for myself...

Now I'm out in the garage and attic runin' wirin' fer my openers........
Nice day fer it,tho.

NOT SORRY !! a reasonable "PROFIT" is expected, RAPE is a different story ! What goes around, comes around !

Mar 6, 2018#68

Ronno6

Boobala said:
NOT SORRY !! a reasonable "PROFIT" is expected, RAPE is a different story ! What goes around, comes around !

If you ever knew how much the stuff we buy REALLY costs, you would be TOTALLY upset !

Mar 6, 2018#69

Boobala

Ronno6 said:
If you ever knew how much the stuff we buy REALLY costs, you would be TOTALLY upset !

I'm pricing a new roof and I'm goin ape-schitt over some of these estimates... got serious issues with code in county where I live, NOBODY wants to install a metal roof here ! on some types of installations the county wants a structural engineers inspection & report, before & after ..$$$$$ I wanted metal over shingle but roofers complain no can do, they HAVE to do a complete tear-off, then of course they try to tell me THEIR shingle roof will guarantee 40 years !! YEAH RIGHT ! Glad I DON"T need a roof right now, just want it done BEFORE I get to that point, ( current shingle roof is 12 years old ) and that's about average for a mobile home. OH well, lots of shopping and comparing to do .

Mar 7, 2018#70

BlazNT

Boobala said:
NOT SORRY !! a reasonable "PROFIT" is expected, RAPE is a different story ! What goes around, comes around !

My son opened a shop in town and wanted to sell his products at a lower cost to bring in business. After he got his business license and started buying he figured something out. Everyone in town was selling their products for over a 300% profit. He came in at 150% to get business. What he found out was no one wanted to buy his cheap stuff. They wanted stuff of quality at a lower price. Once he figured this out he set his pricing to 300% profit and had sales. 10 to 30% off. Still made more money than 150% profit pricing.

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