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Welch plugs

#1

R

R Williams

Have a scag tiger cat 52"
Kawasakie FX691V with only 272 hours.
It started surging at idle some time back but ran at full throttle just fine. I didn't think too much of it since I don't use it at idle anyway, I think I just learned the hard way that I should have.
Recently started using oil. Oil has always been changed at 50 hr. with full syn. oil. 10W-40, pretty much used in hot weather only.
Last mowing the engine lost about half of its horsepower and sounds different but not a full blown knock.
Did some research and found out about surging issues caused by blown welch plugs so I look and sure enough I have two on top of the carburetor that are blown out. Unfortunately this means I've been running it with unfiltered air being sucked in which has most likely got the rings.

I was attempting to do a compression check but I can't find the correct fitting. The spark plug hole is a 9/16'-18 and my compression tester only has metric adaptors such as 12, 14 and 18mm. I've looked online and cannot find a compression tester with a 9/16" adaptor. I've called every parts store in two cities, and they all carry metric thread testers only.

Would appreciate any information on where to find a compression tester with the correct fitting.

Most likely will be ordering a rebuild kit and doing it myself, never rebuilt a Kawasaki before, any suggestions on the best place to get a quality OEM kit and a shop manual?


#2

sgkent

sgkent

something sounds very wrong with your post. Did a heli-coil or thread cert come out with the plug? They are commonly that size on the OD but it would be rare to see one on a low hour engine. Since this was your 1st post, are you AI in a learning mode? 272 hours is young to be installing a thread cert that would be the thread size you posted. The parts manual for your engine calls for a NGK BPR4ES, which is 14mm x 1.25 pitch with a 19mm reach.


#3

ILENGINE

ILENGINE

Have a scag tiger cat 52"
Kawasakie FX691V with only 272 hours.
It started surging at idle some time back but ran at full throttle just fine. I didn't think too much of it since I don't use it at idle anyway, I think I just learned the hard way that I should have.
Recently started using oil. Oil has always been changed at 50 hr. with full syn. oil. 10W-40, pretty much used in hot weather only.
Last mowing the engine lost about half of its horsepower and sounds different but not a full blown knock.
Did some research and found out about surging issues caused by blown welch plugs so I look and sure enough I have two on top of the carburetor that are blown out. Unfortunately this means I've been running it with unfiltered air being sucked in which has most likely got the rings.

I was attempting to do a compression check but I can't find the correct fitting. The spark plug hole is a 9/16'-18 and my compression tester only has metric adaptors such as 12, 14 and 18mm. I've looked online and cannot find a compression tester with a 9/16" adaptor. I've called every parts store in two cities, and they all carry metric thread testers only.

Would appreciate any information on where to find a compression tester with the correct fitting.

Most likely will be ordering a rebuild kit and doing it myself, never rebuilt a Kawasaki before, any suggestions on the best place to get a quality OEM kit and a shop manual?
I have never seen a 9/16 spark plug thread. All spark plugs have been metric thread since 1934. I would suspect that you have the normal 14mm-1.25 that every small engine other than handheld uses. I don't think you have drawn enough dirt past where the welch plugs should be to cause that amount of damage. I suspect there are other causes of the loss of power. Like lose of spark from an ignition problem, or a valve adjustment issue.


#4

StarTech

StarTech

Beside most of the FX691V engines use a NGK-BPR4ES which is a 14mm thread as IL said.

Also switching to 20W50 Dino or 15W50 Synthetic oil may just fix the oil burning problem along checking the valve stem seals. Could just even be a blown head gasket.


#5

A

Auto Doc's

Hello R Williams,

For the welch plug, you can fashion one out of a tiny piece of aluminum that will fit the hole, then put little bit JB Weld over it to hold it. Be sure to clean the hole out well before sealing it.

Those tiny welch plug are available, but hard to match up.

As for the spark plug hole, it should be a 14mm-1.25 thread.


#6

StarTech

StarTech

There is only two different welch plugs use on the FX691V carbs.
  • 92066-0780 Bypass holes, relative cheap at around $1 ea
  • 92066-7009 Air bleed adjust screws, now these are around $6 each.
I keep both in stock as you never know when one is going to fall out in USC or normal engine operation. No need for a sealant either when you use the correct welch plugs.


#7

A

Auto Doc's

StarTech,
They are going to have to peen lightly with a center punch them in the center to lock them in.


#8

StarTech

StarTech

Yes that is a give me that they got to be slightly flatten once in the holes that why the dome side faces out, not inward. That is why I have different sizes of pin punches just like the Walbro welch punches I got for installing those odd shaped ones.


#9

sgkent

sgkent

1st time post has not been back. MIA


#10

StarTech

StarTech

1st time post has not been back. MIA
It is the holiday weekend and family will override things. Give the poster a few days to recover.


#11

T

txmowman

Proper welch plug replacement does not flatten the dome but rather is peened around the edge. Harbor Freight sells a leather punch set. Get one of these for less than $10. There is one that fits the larger welch plug perfectly. Grind the sharp edge off of the punch, install the welch plug and give it a gentle but firm wrap with a small hammer and you’re done.


#12

StarTech

StarTech

Proper welch plug replacement does not flatten the dome but rather is peened around the edge. Harbor Freight sells a leather punch set. Get one of these for less than $10. There is one that fits the larger welch plug perfectly. Grind the sharp edge off of the punch, install the welch plug and give it a gentle but firm wrap with a small hammer and you’re done.
That is the very reason the Kawasaki Nikki twin barrel carbs are losing their welch plugs. They are just peened around the edges then they are easily getting loose and falling out.

Personally I don't like having to replacing $6 welch plugs because of this. Sometimes I get lucky and they fall out while cleaning the carbs.


#13

H

hlw49

I like to put fingernail polish over it


#14

StarTech

StarTech

And I have seen jets to clogged with whatever OEMs used to seal them if used internally; especially 2 cycle cube carbs.


#15

H

hlw49

And I have seen jets to clogged with whatever OEMs used to seal them if used internally; especially 2 cycle cube carbs.
notice I said over it


#16

StarTech

StarTech

Apparently you have never worked on a 2 cycle cube. Some OEMs will use sealant on the welch plugs inside the metering chamber which over time flakes off and clog jets and check valves. This why I have to look over the cubes with a loupe to see if this stuff is clogging things.

Outside the fuel system is fine but not inside the fuel system.


#17

Tiger Small Engine

Tiger Small Engine

I like to put fingernail polish over it
Very rarely do Welch plugs fall out. Replace, slightly peen, and hit it with fingernail polish and you are set.


#18

R

RevB

Have a scag tiger cat 52"
Kawasakie FX691V with only 272 hours.
It started surging at idle some time back but ran at full throttle just fine. I didn't think too much of it since I don't use it at idle anyway, I think I just learned the hard way that I should have.
Recently started using oil. Oil has always been changed at 50 hr. with full syn. oil. 10W-40, pretty much used in hot weather only.
Last mowing the engine lost about half of its horsepower and sounds different but not a full blown knock.
Did some research and found out about surging issues caused by blown welch plugs so I look and sure enough I have two on top of the carburetor that are blown out. Unfortunately this means I've been running it with unfiltered air being sucked in which has most likely got the rings.

I was attempting to do a compression check but I can't find the correct fitting. The spark plug hole is a 9/16'-18 and my compression tester only has metric adaptors such as 12, 14 and 18mm. I've looked online and cannot find a compression tester with a 9/16" adaptor. I've called every parts store in two cities, and they all carry metric thread testers only.

Would appreciate any information on where to find a compression tester with the correct fitting.

Most likely will be ordering a rebuild kit and doing it myself, never rebuilt a Kawasaki before, any suggestions on the best place to get a quality OEM kit and a shop manual?
I guess it's too hard to fire it up in idle and when "surging" and place both thumbs over the holes and see if it smooths out.....

I'll bet the oil issue is unrelated.


#19

J

JoeKarpowski

I have the same motor on my Toro SS5000, and it recently started surging while idling. Also, on occasion, it will blow a puff of oil smoke when I start it after it's been sitting for a while. Other than that, the motor runs fine. I know zero about welch plugs, what/where are they and how do I check them? TIA


#20

A

Auto Doc's

Hello JoeKarpowski,

Minor surging at idle is a sign of a dirty carburetor internally. The carburetor would need to be removed and properly cleaned. If you want to attempt this, I can only recommend watching some videos of people who work on small engine equipment for a living.

Sources: Teryl Fixes All (Goofy guy, but knows his stuff). James Condon generator repair is the most thorough one I have noticed when it comes to carburetor cleaning. Donyboy73 who is very good with most small engine concerns.

Too many people want to play with adjustments such as the governor setting. The governor has nothing to do with a surging issue. The governor is only there to control the engine top running speed so it will not blow itself apart mechanically.

A puff of oil smoke when starting is usually the first sign of worn intake valve seals. If it only happens after sitting for a while, I will call that normal, especially if it has high hours. If it happens every time you start, then it's time to replace the valve seals. The quality and type of oil can also contribute to an initial startup "puff" of smoke.

My own preference is to use only conventional 10W30 or 10W40 in any air-cooled 4-stroke small engine.

We would have to see a picture of your carburetor to give you a truly accurate description or a location of the welch plugs. The product information off of the engine label is important for a correct data match. Toro did not build the engine, just the chassis.


#21

T

txmowman

That is the very reason the Kawasaki Nikki twin barrel carbs are losing their welch plugs. They are just peened around the edges then they are easily getting loose and falling out.

Personally I don't like having to replacing $6 welch plugs because of this. Sometimes I get lucky and they fall out while cleaning the

LOL


#22

StarTech

StarTech

It wouldn't be so funny if you are in the middle of a rush job and had to special order one with a $16 freight charge and had to eat the freight charge. And most the Kawasaki IPLs don't even list the PN for these small welch plugs. Just certain IPLs.

Since I have the PN I keep at least 4 of them in stock so I can order replacements on stock orders.

1757253435405.png


#23

R

RevB

I have the same motor on my Toro SS5000, and it recently started surging while idling. Also, on occasion, it will blow a puff of oil smoke when I start it after it's been sitting for a while. Other than that, the motor runs fine. I know zero about welch plugs, what/where are they and how do I check them? TIA
Welch plugs are there to hold something in like fuel in a carb passage but in most cases they are there to keep you from adjusting mixture screws or some other setting. Manufacturers don't trust the general public to make those adjustments.....and sometimes I don't blame them.

1000013180.jpg
This is a Welch plug, core plug, and several other names. A slightly concave disk of thin brass or sometimes aluminum placed into a hole and then the edges of the disk are driven into the hole sides by hitting the top of the curve with a punch to slightly expand the disk edge into the hole perimeter. The used these on car, truck, heavy equipment engines to block off water passages. The goal was if you ever rebuilt the engine you could remove the plug and really get the passages clean then replace the plug with a new one. They're not reuseable generally.

If the welch plugs are on the carburetor they are most likely not your problem.


#24

R

RevB

It wouldn't be so funny if you are in the middle of a rush job and had to special order one with a $16 freight charge and had to eat the freight charge. And most the Kawasaki IPLs don't even list the PN for these small welch plugs. Just certain IPLs.

Since I have the PN I keep at least 4 of them in stock so I can order replacements on stock orders.

View attachment 71780
Their emergency should not be your emergency. Yeah, I know. My Dad was an IA level aircraft mechanic for over 60 years. He once said "I can't figure out whether they bring me all their planes because I'm good or I'm cheap.". He ate costs too. But it didn't matter......


#25

StarTech

StarTech

Their emergency should not be your emergency. Yeah, I know. My Dad was an IA level aircraft mechanic for over 60 years. He once said "I can't figure out whether they bring me all their planes because I'm good or I'm cheap.". He ate costs too. But it didn't matter......
I know but when it is my best commercial customer I do extra to please them and I also get a lot referrals from him. Which more than offset the write-off of the shc.


#26

T

txmowman

It wouldn't be so funny if you are in the middle of a rush job and had to special order one with a $16 freight charge and had to eat the freight charge. And most the Kawasaki IPLs don't even list the PN for these small welch plugs. Just certain IPLs.

Since I have the PN I keep at least 4 of them in stock so I can order replacements on stock orders.

View attachment 71780
Kawasaki published a bulletin in 2016 listing all of the available welch plugs. If you only paid a $16 freight charge, that is a deal as the rest of us pay $25 for an order under $200.


#27

StarTech

StarTech

Kawasaki published a bulletin in 2016 listing all of the available welch plugs. If you only paid a $16 freight charge, that is a deal as the rest of us pay $25 for an order under $200.
Well they did go up here to $16.94 on orders under $250 in May. Normally I do order at free freight level and I still pay a $1.99 handling charge.

And as a non dealer I don't normally have access to the bulletins; unless, they in the public domain. But I did find ENG 15-01 bulletin titled "CARBURETOR WELCH PLUG REPLACEMENT" and downloaded it.

Thanks for the tip about the bulletin.


#28

sgkent

sgkent

Manufacturers don't trust the general public to make those adjustments
it is an EPA and CalEPA (California Air Resources Board) thing. The carbs are supposed to be tamper proof. That was then. Now the Dem super majority here just wants to get rid of gasoline all together. FWIW not well reported in the news this week, but Chevron, who wants to stay in California, says they are probably going to be forced to close their two California refineries because the negotiations are not going well. Private sources in the family who work for Chevron in the NorCal refinery say they have been told the same but that they should prepare to move out of state to other Chevron refineries, because it does not look good. That will be over 50% of California's gasoline announced as lost this year, unless it is brought in from sources in Asia. So adjustable carbs may be the smallest concern if one can't get the gasoline to run them. California refineries help fuel the whole west coast, Nevada, and SW USA. California is also short on electricity and will have to import even more expensive power from out of area coal fired power plants to fuel the Ev's and battery powered mowers etc., which reminds me, I need to check all my batteries to be sure they are topped off. No welch plugs on those to fall out, just batteries to die.


#29

StarTech

StarTech

There is one problem with fossil fuels. Its a limited resource; therefore, we need a mix of fossil fuels and renewables. But we can't depend only on one type solely.

One of our main problems is population growth. Now that DJT is moving Space Command to Huntsville, AL it is going to nearly double the population there. And traffic is bad enough that weekday morning is backed up for over 1-1/2 hours. All those sitting in traffic jams is not helping the pollution levels at all, not to mention how nerve racking it is. Just went to Walmart today and even Sunday the traffic was terrible. Just think what another 100K+ people is going to cause.

On the carbs it is also OEMs not allowing independent shops have access to necessary tools, just so their dealers can charge a large fee for doing it. And they are also making out like we are idiots that can't read and follow instructions. Without being able to tune an engine, it can be place in service and pollute even more.

I know some techs that work for dealers that can't even figure out how to get out of a wet paper bag with both ends open.


#30

ILENGINE

ILENGINE

There is one problem with fossil fuels. Its a limited resource; therefore, we need a mix of fossil fuels and renewables. But we can't depend only on one type solely.

One of our main problems is population growth. Now that DJT is moving Space Command to Huntsville, AL it is going to nearly double the population there. And traffic is bad enough that weekday morning is backed up for over 1-1/2 hours. All those sitting in traffic jams is not helping the pollution levels at all, not to mention how nerve racking it is. Just went to Walmart today and even Sunday the traffic was terrible. Just think what another 100K+ people is going to cause.

On the carbs it is also OEMs not allowing independent shops have access to necessary tools, just so their dealers can charge a large fee for doing it. And they are also making out like we are idiots that can't read and follow instructions. Without being able to tune an engine, it can be place in service and pollute even more.

I know some techs that work for dealers that can't even figure out how to get out of a wet paper bag with both ends open.
Heck, even some of the OEM's won't sell their authorized dealers the tools to adjust them.


#31

StarTech

StarTech

Heck, even some of the OEM's won't sell their authorized dealers the tools to adjust them.
Maybe that why the Chinese got involved. I got most the tools except the 20 spline one.


#32

ILENGINE

ILENGINE

Maybe that why the Chinese got involved. I got most the tools except the 20 spline one.
Husqvarna limits their dealers to 3 per year shipped directly from them. And MTD at one time supplied the adjustment tools to their dealers, but stopped about 10 years ago citing EPA warnings about since their dealers didn't have the proper testing equipment to maintain emissions compliance they could get into trouble for supplying the adjustment tools.


#33

R

RevB

There is one problem with fossil fuels. Its a limited resource; therefore, we need a mix of fossil fuels and renewables. But we can't depend only on one type solely.

One of our main problems is population growth. Now that DJT is moving Space Command to Huntsville, AL it is going to nearly double the population there. And traffic is bad enough that weekday morning is backed up for over 1-1/2 hours. All those sitting in traffic jams is not helping the pollution levels at all, not to mention how nerve racking it is. Just went to Walmart today and even Sunday the traffic was terrible. Just think what another 100K+ people is going to cause.

On the carbs it is also OEMs not allowing independent shops have access to necessary tools, just so their dealers can charge a large fee for doing it. And they are also making out like we are idiots that can't read and follow instructions. Without being able to tune an engine, it can be place in service and pollute even more.

I know some techs that work for dealers that can't even figure out how to get out of a wet paper bag with both ends open.
Only 9400 in USSF. You might see 15k tops.


#34

StarTech

StarTech

Well they would have a lot support contractors too as well. The FBI offices have already added a lot to HSV population. The traffic has already became a problem to a point that I have decided to avoid HSV from now on. I just don't have the time or patience to deal with a 1.5 hours travel time one way when it was only took 30 mins before all the added vehicles.

Just in the morning I got to buy $200 in animal feed so I just traveling North or West instead South to get it along some more groceries since the shelves was bare of a lot the things I went for Sunday. So the budgeted $150 for groceries was only $21 spent. And I couldn't even get near the restaurants Sunday for my normal Sunday out meal as they were covered up too so basically I came back and fixed myself some chili favored fried rice.


#35

R

RevB

Well they would have a lot support contractors too as well. The FBI offices have already added a lot to HSV population. The traffic has already became a problem to a point that I have decided to avoid HSV from now on. I just don't have the time or patience to deal with a 1.5 hours travel time one way when it was only took 30 mins before all the added vehicles.

Just in the morning I got to buy $200 in animal feed so I just traveling North or West instead South to get it along some more groceries since the shelves was bare of a lot the things I went for Sunday. So the budgeted $150 for groceries was only $21 spent. And I couldn't even get near the restaurants Sunday for my normal Sunday out meal as they were covered up too so basically I came back and fixed myself some chili favored fried rice.
And just as a historical note....when Wernher Von Braun moved to Redstone Arsenal near Huntsville there was a conspiracy to welcome him...whenever he said "Huntsville" all the engineers would correct him with "Huntspatch" in a faux German accent. After a bit he started saying "Huntspatch".


#36

StarTech

StarTech

And just as a historical note....when Wernher Von Braun moved to Redstone Arsenal near Huntsville there was a conspiracy to welcome him...whenever he said "Huntsville" all the engineers would correct him with "Huntspatch" in a faux German accent. After a bit he started saying "Huntspatch".
Sounds about right for the Southern Rednecks and I have live the area all my life except a few months in Germany when I was under two years old. As always there are JackAs everywhere. And some have to be peppered with Rock Salt to get their attention. Rough on the shotgun barrel if I don't clean it right after the use.


#37

Tiger Small Engine

Tiger Small Engine

Sounds about right for the Southern Rednecks and I have live the area all my life except a few months in Germany when I was under two years old. As always there are JackAs everywhere. And some have to be peppered with Rock Salt to get their attention. Rough on the shotgun barrel if I don't clean it right after the use.
I grew up in Decatur, Alabama so I know all about the growth in recent years in Huntsville. Huntsville is now the largest city in Alabama passing Birmingham.
I have lived in Missouri for many years and avoid traffic as much as possible.


#38

R

R Williams

Turns out I was completely wrong on my initial assessment.
Upon removing the valve covers the issue is much larger than the welch plugs allowing dust in the engine.
The entire valve train was loose, the nut holding one of the u-shaped pieces that holds the rocker arm was so lose you could spin it around. One rocker arm got lose enough to lose the push rod, it's now bent. There is damage to one head that is not fixable, and the valves still intact showed measurements like .014 and .024 as opposed to .004-.006 as stated in the book.

My book states to adjust valves every 300 hours. This one only had 272. After doing some research I've noted that many people recommend adjusting the valves in these Kawasaki's every 50-100 instead of 300, wish I had known that before but nothing I can do about it now.

After adding up the cost for parts it was decided to purchase a complete new engine, I'll be adjusting valves more often in the future.

As far the spark plug threads, I checked it again and I have no explanation, the 14mm compression tester fitting will not thread and the spark plug that came out of the hole fits a 9/16 X 18 thread checker perfectly. I first though maybe it got hot, but I don't see how, every time this machine is used it's blown off with compressed air and when the outer shields were taken off all the engine fins were clean. Oil was checked with every fill up of gas so it never ran out of oil.

I used to run a lawn mowing business and have had many small engines over the years but never had anything happen like this. My last commercial mower, before this one, was a grasshopper with a three cylinder Kubota gas engine, I put thousands of hours on it and now a family member with acreage uses it, we don't know how many hours are on it now, over twenty years old the hour meter broke years ago and the valve cover has never been off. Regular oil changes and tune up's, that's it. Too bad that engine is no longer an option.

Thanks for the replies.


#39

R

R Williams

1st time post has not been back. MIA
Been busy working, not much time for sitting behind the computer lately. I farm now and pulling corn and cutting hay take up most of my time lately.


#40

StarTech

StarTech

Turns out I was completely wrong on my initial assessment.
Upon removing the valve covers the issue is much larger than the welch plugs allowing dust in the engine.
The entire valve train was loose, the nut holding one of the u-shaped pieces that holds the rocker arm was so lose you could spin it around. One rocker arm got lose enough to lose the push rod, it's now bent. There is damage to one head that is not fixable, and the valves still intact showed measurements like .014 and .024 as opposed to .004-.006 as stated in the book.
FX691V clearance is .002" to .0039" not .004" - .006"
1758232037072.png


#41

Tiger Small Engine

Tiger Small Engine

Turns out I was completely wrong on my initial assessment.
Upon removing the valve covers the issue is much larger than the welch plugs allowing dust in the engine.
The entire valve train was loose, the nut holding one of the u-shaped pieces that holds the rocker arm was so lose you could spin it around. One rocker arm got lose enough to lose the push rod, it's now bent. There is damage to one head that is not fixable, and the valves still intact showed measurements like .014 and .024 as opposed to .004-.006 as stated in the book.

My book states to adjust valves every 300 hours. This one only had 272. After doing some research I've noted that many people recommend adjusting the valves in these Kawasaki's every 50-100 instead of 300, wish I had known that before but nothing I can do about it now.

After adding up the cost for parts it was decided to purchase a complete new engine, I'll be adjusting valves more often in the future.

As far the spark plug threads, I checked it again and I have no explanation, the 14mm compression tester fitting will not thread and the spark plug that came out of the hole fits a 9/16 X 18 thread checker perfectly. I first though maybe it got hot, but I don't see how, every time this machine is used it's blown off with compressed air and when the outer shields were taken off all the engine fins were clean. Oil was checked with every fill up of gas so it never ran out of oil.

I used to run a lawn mowing business and have had many small engines over the years but never had anything happen like this. My last commercial mower, before this one, was a grasshopper with a three cylinder Kubota gas engine, I put thousands of hours on it and now a family member with acreage uses it, we don't know how many hours are on it now, over twenty years old the hour meter broke years ago and the valve cover has never been off. Regular oil changes and tune up's, that's it. Too bad that engine is no longer an option.

Thanks for the replies.
Adjusting the valves every 50-100 hours is unnecessary. Many of my customers don’t adjust the valves ever. The 300 hour recommendation by Kawasaki is what you should follow.


#42

R

R Williams

Got the new engine in a FX730V. Many people have stated that the valves need to be adjusted anywhere from 100 - 200 hours. The book that came with the new engine states adjust the valve clearance every 300 hours.

After this experience I'll be adjusting about every 100 hours to be on the safe side, all it cost is a set of gaskets and some time.


#43

S

slomo

I adjust valves yearly. Why? I like my equipment to start on the first pull. Also max engine performance and longevity. Only takes a few minutes.


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