Hi, new to the forum.
My Toro is second-hand to me. The electronic brake controller failed along with the ignition solenoid, as it sat outside over the winter. (we moved recently, and shop was full)
I replaced the brake controller, solenoid, battery, and ignition switch. Now it will start and run, but starter still running after key switch is off. Fortunately I noticed this right away, as I was testing the new parts to make sure all was good.
I tried 2 other solenoids, so figure I ruled out a bad solenoid. (all were brand new)
I left small wires and battery wire on solenoid but removed wire to starter. Then connected starter wire to battery wire and motor started right away. When I disconnected starter wire from battery wire the starter stopped and motor kept running as it should. When I turned key off the motor shut off properly.
I'm considering simply installing a start button to make mower operable, but I'd sure like to find what the real problem is.
Anyone have an idea what's wrong?
Thank you!
I didn't think of that! But...when I unhook the ground wire from the solenoid the starter shuts off and disengages the flywheel. There's still power to the starter until I unhook that ground wire. I've looked for faulty ground wires, but haven't found anything wrong yet.
I will check that out. Would make sense to be a grounding issue, when I have to unhook ground at solenoid to shut it off. I'll let y'all know what happens! Thanks!
#10
StarTech
Just remember that unhooking ground is the same as disconnecting the supply voltage at the solenoid.
Cleaned and tested continuity for ground to motor and for brake switch. All tested good. Re-tested starting the motor. Same issue. But...I thought 4 post solenoids didn't matter if they were grounded. Wouldn't work if not grounded. When I grounded it and starter kept running even with key off, I lifted solenoid off mower frame and starter shut down. I reversed the battery and starter wires on the solenoid to see if that mattered, and same issue. Solenoid did not work if not grounded, but when grounded starter keeps running until ground is interrupted. Beginning to wonder if possibly the new brake controller is defective? I watched when key in run position, the brakes disengage when steering levers are moved. So it appears to work that way...
#12
StarTech
And it is a good possibility if you did replace the wiring at the same time. They won't cover it you didn't. Remove the blue wire at the brake controller and test.
May not fire up but the starter should now stop when not in start position.
Traced blue wire from brake controller up to ignition switch. Disconnected at that point. No power to starter. But when reconnected and turned key, starter engaged. When disconnected while starter running, the starter kept going until I
Site cut off my response.
The starter kept going until I interrupted the ground at the solenoid.
#15
StarTech
Read my text carefully. I did not say disconnect at the ignition switch, I said disconnect at the brake controller. I thinking you are getting a feedback relay latching voltage from the brake controller which is creating a holding voltage at the solenoid.
If this is happening then the brake controller is bad. Then you could try installing a steering diode at the brake controller to prevent this feedback but this only masks the problem.
Gotcha. I'll do that as soon as I can. Thank you for the clarity. I get the basics of electricity, but struggle with understanding how feedback and diodes work.
It sounds like the starter solenoid is getting power from the "on" power source. What happens when you turn the ignition switch to on without going to start. Does the starter run?. If it does, the starter switch is bad or the on and start wires are connecting somewhere. Just a thought!
Haven't been able to get back to mower for a day or so. Planning to make time later today, I hope.
When ignition switch turned to run, without going to "start" position, there is no power to the starter. It only gets power when turned to start. Once in start position, power remains to starter even when switch turned off, until I interrupt the ground.
I just finished reconnecting blue wire at switch, and I cut the blue wire between the solenoid and the brake controller. With the blue wire disconnected from the switch, the solenoid buzzes, then starter engages and engine will start. It does act like not quite enough power to solenoid and ignition with blue wire disconnected. But if I reconnect the wire, the engine starts and starter stays running until I disconnect the wire to the brake controller. But, when blue wire disconnected from brake controller, the engine stays running, and turns off with key.
Clarifying... With the blue wire disconnected from the "brake controller", the solenoid buzzes.... I had typed "switch" which sounds like the ignition switch...
With blue wire disconnected from the brake controller, the solenoid will buzz for a moment, then starter will engage and engine will start, but sluggishly, like ignition weak...
The wiring diagram shows a diode in the starter solenoid harness. I suspect the diode is bad/blown out and allowing current to flow the wrong direction. Jump starting or a continuous low battery will stress and fail system diodes.
I misread star tech's reply. He is actually suggesting putting a diode in and indicated by the partial diagram he showed later. This would eliminate the starter having unwanted voltage from the controller that is keeping the starter solenoid powered up.
The way I am understanding your problem is that the starter is being energized into crank mode at all times.
You are understanding the problem correctly. Once the ignition switch is turned to "start", the starter remains energized even when ignition is moved to the "off" position, until I disconnect the ground.
What sort of diode should I install, and where do I get one? I have rewired entire vehicles and homes, but never dealt with a diode...
Do you have a simple test light and a multimeter. If not consider getting them, otherwise everyone is guessing. Some issues like this are just not going to be simple without some testing and good notes, so you don't get confused.
Go all the way back to the original diagram (that is your roadmap) that Startech provided you and verify every wire is exactly connected to the correct pin location. Anyone could have been blindly swapping wire pins around before you got this machine. I have seen this kind of thing happen before. (People who mean well, do not always do well).
The whole issue seems to be pointing at the brake controller "brain box" of the circuit. It could likely have a diode or a switching micro-solenoid inside of it that is bad. (Don't condemn the part until all harness and connection have been confirmed good)
Was it a used brake controller that you installed initially?
By placing a rectifier diode in the start wire right where it goes into the controller (pin #2), it would prevent voltage feedback from the brake controller to the start solenoid. Note the direction of the arrow on the diode. It has to be placed as indicated in the diagram portion provided by Startech
A rectifier diode is a 1-way electronic "door" that will only allow positive electron "power" to flow in one direction and stop it if it tries to travel backwards. Many people refer to them as a "gate".
A rectifier diode can be purchased at Mouser.com or on Ebay. The only mystery is what Wattage would it require.
Basic rider mower cranking/power circuit has 350A capacity battery at 12.6V with a 14.7V charging average
Maybe we have an electronics savvy member who can chime in here? Maybe Startech can elaborate further.
The brake controller had malfunctioned, in that the brake wasn't releasing when the steering arms were moved from the "park" position. (sometimes they would, sometimes not)
I purchased a new (not reman) brake controller online specifically using the info from the mower. After installing the new controller, the brake was releasing properly, but then the problem of the starter not disengaging appeared.
I had thought since the mower sat outside last winter that the ignition switch may have gotten rain water in it and was malfunctioning, so I replaced it as well, again using specifics from the mower and not just getting a generic part.
I can't say how much I truly appreciate the help from this forum! You have all been so helpful!
I have used multimeters and test lights most of my life, and am very familiar with 12 volt up to 240 volt wiring. At least enough to rewire many trailers, trucks, and a couple homes and shops. (background as a farmer, mechanic, fleet mechanic, building inspection, home remodeler) But never got into messing with stereos or anything that used diodes.
I can fix nearly anything, given my back holds up. (too many surgeries to list) So installing a diode in the circuit is no problem. I prefer to solder and shrink tube rather than just crappy crimp connections. Do it once, do it right.
If I know what part to get, I'm happy to install it, and report back on the progress. Hey, who knows who else out there can benefit from all this fun?
Sounds like you have been around long enough to know that "new" does not always mean good.
A simple inline rectifier diode should do the trick. Typical V-twin engines have them in the coil kill wire harness if you have any old V-twin core engines laying around. Maybe you can borrow a diode out of a scrap harness for testing purposes. The diode should have resistance in one direction but not the other.
I also noticed on the full diagram that it is not showing the coil kill wire diodes and they usually do. They may be contained in the controller module.
I looked on Mouser.com, and got really confused. So I went to Oreillys auto parts website and found a "Littlefuse 1 amp mini diode" that would plug into a fuse holder I could install inline. Would that work, or is that high enough ampage?
Under the seat is a wire connector with all of the wires going into it... Unplug it,and see if it shows any signs of corrosion on any of the pins on either connector... I have the exact same model,and had the exact same issues after I stored it outside uncovered and it rained... The seat safety switch will probably act up next.. You can clean the terminals and pins up and maybe it'll start working right again,or find the correct circuit to the starter, unpin both sides and make a straight connection alleviating the corrosion which is causing the issue... Or cut that wire and run it to a mpmentary switch and then to the starter solenoid and use that for starting...
Victory!!!!
I installed a resistor inline on the blue wire between the ignition solenoid and the brake actuator.
I also checked for corrosion on any pins at the connectors basically everywhere on the mower.
Hooked the battery back up, and the engine fired right up and shut back off with the key! Just like it's suppose to do. So I told my wife we can cancel returning the new brake actuator cuz now (with some help) it's working.
Thank you ALL for your input and help! I can't thank you enough!
Can't wait to use the mower now, after an oil change and blade sharpening, of course.
The part is a Briggs and Stratton 393456 alternator diode assembly. It has 2 wires(1 red, 1 black) on one end and a plug with 2 pins on the other. I looked up the schematics for its installation and found the diode is in the red wire, so the black wire I did not connect, just tucked it into its own sheath. I connected the red wire to the blue tail near the solenoid, and attached a "bullet plug" on the blue wire to the brake controller, and plugged it onto the pin for the red wire of the diode assembly.
I have to assume I got it right, cuz it works perfectly, and it wasn't without the diode installed. I paid around 20 bucks for the part at a local auto parts store. Could have gotten way cheaper online, but didn't want to wait a week for shipping.
There are probably better options out there, but this one was readily available and easy to install.
Aside from the shrink tube, you wouldn't even know it wasn't part of the original harness. I secured it to the existing wire loom with a small zip tie and tucked it under the mower body above the brake controller, out of sight.
Thanks for the parts info and the solution you came up with. That diode should be sufficient to protect the circuit for years to come.
There are many folks who do not understand the purpose of a diode in a circuit. A circuit diode can resolve a lot of strange electrical problems if installed correctly.
When I worked for a local John Deere dealer as a service manager years ago, I was always showing my techs how to resolve strange electrical issues like this.
Thanks to all of you who helped walk me through it.
One thing I like to do with mowers is remove the mower deck, clean it well, and paint it with bed liner. It cleans off easier, and absorbs impact from rocks so the paint doesn't chip on the outside of the deck. It also prevents rust from acidic grass. It makes the deck last WAY longer, and is easy and fairly cheap. When done mowing I run front wheels up on car ramps so I can hose off under the deck. My mowers look like new and last a long time. And oil changes every 60 hours makes a happy motor, especially in dusty conditions.
Leave the starter cable off the solenoid. With a test light, or meter, check for 12v at the ungrounded small solenoid wire. With key NOT in the start position, there should be no voltage at that wire. If there is, the solenoid will be energized and the starter would always be powered. That small connection goes back to the key switch's S connection. There should be no other wires attached to that connection on the solenoid, or switch. Unplug the key switch's connector. If the voltage disappears at the solenoid, I would check continuity between the key switch's S and B terminals. Should be open unless in the Start position.
Give that Solenoid a Whack with the handle of a large screwdriver while stuck. Contacts could be welded together or spring too weak from being overheated.
EDIT: I see you solved problem, leaving this here in case someone has a stuck solenoid in the future.
