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Strange oil usage.

#1

Big Jon

Big Jon

I've got a 48" Cub Z Force S with a Kohler Command CV680 engine with just over 150 hours on it. The mower is run on a fairly flat lawn & the only time it's run in any kind of dirty conditions is in the fall when I mulch leaves with it. It has never used any oil and gets a complete service & cleaned up every November before I put it away for the winter. It's a '13 model, so it's being run less than 20 hours per year. It has always had a mulching kit on it. It gets blown out after every mowing and the air filter has never gotten dirty. The only thing I did different last fall when I put it away was when I filled it with gas and poured Sea Foam in the gas tank, I added an extra 2 or 3 ounces just to empty the bottle.
This spring when I started it up the first time it smoked. A lot... As soon as the motor warmed up it quit smoking, ran fine, and had good power, just like it always has. I wondered at the time if it smoked so bad when I started it because of the extra Sea Foam I had added when I stored it for the winter. I idled it down a couple of times to open & close gates & each time I throttled it back up it would blow out a cloud of gray smoke for a few seconds and then clear up again. When I finished mowing I let it cool down & then blew it off with my leaf blower like I've always done & then put it back in my shed. I checked the engine oil the next day and had to add 6oz. of oil. (Kohler 10W30 Synth. blend, which is the only oil it's ever had) Once again, I've never had to add a single ounce over the past 8 years. I did check the muffler tip & it was typically clean, with just a bit of dry, gray residue on my finger.
I decided since there was no noise, knock, or power loss in the engine, to mow at least one more time before checking with my dealer about what was going on. The second mowing was an exact replay of the first except instead of using 6 ounces of oil it only used 2 ounces. I decided to keep using it. The 3rd mowing, it acted exactly the same as the first 2, except that I had to add about 4 ounces of oil. The muffler tip was black when I checked that time & slightly moist.
After that I checked with my dealer and one other dealership & told them what happened & both of them suggested I keep using it & see if it gets any worse before bringing it in to get checked. One of them suggested possibly checking valve adjustment. The other dealer said it has hydraulic lifters & won't need the valves checked...
I mowed for the 4th time today & it's another repeat of the first 3 mowings. Lots of smoke on startup, then running clean with great power & no unusual engine noise. I got puffs of gray smoke each time I would idle it down & then go full throttle again. I did notice today that after letting it cool down for 10 minutes and then blowing it off like I always do, that the red oil light cycled on & off after I started it to put it back in the shed. It went out & stayed out when I throttled it up. I have not noticed it coming on while mowing, but I suppose it's possible... This has always happened occasionally for a few seconds when I start the engine cold. I guess it's time to get it checked out. Any thoughts before I haul it in?


#2

P

Paul54

Almost sounds like after running and then shutting down the breather Reed is not seating fully and allowing the oil to puddle on top of the piston and when you start it up it blows blue white smoke and then settles back , make sure you are checking oil level correctly - it should be with the cap just resting on the filler tube threads, not screws on . what oil are you using?
sounds like breather Reeds are not allowing c/case vacuum on piston up strokes ( exhaust /compression)and pressure bypass on piston down strokes, (power/intake) can't be totally sure your engine may have breather in the valley between cylinders or under each cylinder head in between the lifters


#3

StarTech

StarTech

Paul54 said:
Almost sounds like after running and then shutting down the breather Reed is not seating fully and allowing the oil to puddle on top of the piston and when you start it up it blows blue white smoke and then settles back , make sure you are checking oil level correctly - it should be with the cap just resting on the filler tube threads, not screws on . what oil are you using?
sounds like breather Reeds are not allowing c/case vacuum on piston up strokes ( exhaust /compression)and pressure bypass on piston down strokes, (power/intake) can't be totally sure your engine may have breather in the valley between cylinders or under each cylinder head in between the lifters
Click to expand...
Just wondering how you can explain this theory? Especially since the breather has no direct connection the piston.

It is more likely oil seeping pass the piston rings from being overfilled or it even be a bad head gasket and/or warped head, or valve stems seal.

Just to note I have brand new Kohler engines to smoke at start-up.


#4

G

guyina4x4

bad head gasket


#5

S

slomo

Anyone have a short-hand summary of the issue? Low hours, never smoked, poured in Seafoam, now it has lung cancer, dealer looked at it - all good even smoking??

Deduced down, Seafoam destroyed the engine.

As Guyina4x4 said, head gasket check, piston rings, crankcase vent hose should be inspected.

slomo


#6

7394

7394

I don't think the Seafoam is the culprit. I have been using it since I was a kid & my Dad used it long before he turned me onto it, some 50 yrs ago.


#7

S

slomo

You know how these small engines make a lot of carbon? And that Seafoam dissolves said carbon? Which means all that hard grit is now inside the bore, piston rings, valve guides and so on? Puts a lot of wear on an engine. Ever wonder when you remove a head, you see big bore scratches? That hard carbon you have to use a hardened metal scraper to remove gets in places where it shouldn't be.

None of the small engine manufacturers recommend Seafoam for either fuel or oil mixes.

What is recommended is de-carbonizing your engine at periodic intervals. It's in every small engine manual I've seen.

slomo


#8

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

Elbow Grease works good for removing carbon, don't even have to mix or measure in the oil or gas.


#9

I

ILENGINE

slomo said:
You know how these small engines make a lot of carbon? And that Seafoam dissolves said carbon? Which means all that hard grit is now inside the bore, piston rings, valve guides and so on. Puts a lot of wear on an engine. Ever wonder when you remove a head, you see big bore scratches? That hard carbon you have to use a hardened metal scraper to remove gets in places where it shouldn't be.

None of the small engine manufacturers recommend Seafoam for either fuel or oil mixes.

What is recommended is de-carbonizing your engine at periodic intervals. It's in every small engine manual I've seen.

slomo
Click to expand...
My local Kohler distributor not only sells Seafoam but recommends it use.


#10

S

slomo

ILENGINE said:
My local Kohler distributor not only sells Seafoam but recommends it use.
Click to expand...
A local Kroller distributor makes NOTHING. They SELL slash distribute everything they can. I bet they have a display of that wonder juice by the cash register. LOL

slomo


#11

tagpop

tagpop

Change the oil and filter. Remove the old gas and give it another try. Check your gas container it maybe dirty, old, or just bad from the pump. I got a baby lizard out of my 16hp tank this year (that a mystery).


#12

Big Jon

Big Jon

7394 said:
I don't think the Seafoam is the culprit. I have been using it since I was a kid & my Dad used it long before he turned me onto it, some 50 yrs ago.
Click to expand...
I agree, I've been using Sea Foam since I quit using StaBil at least 25 years ago.
Quick update on this: I took it to our local Cub dealer. (Not where I purchased it.) Their mechanic says it's building back pressure. He did not go into the engine at all, but called Kohler and they told him it sounds like the rings have never seated and it's now blowing oil by. They said I have two choices. 1st choice is to change the oil that has approximately 2 hours on it, to a good synthetic and go out & get the engine good & hot to try to seat the rings. First of all the mower is now 8 years old and has never used a drop of oil until this mowing season, (pretty sure the rings were seated...) and it has had the oil changed every 20-25 engine hours and has never had any oil except genuine Kohler 10W30 which is the oil that Kohler recommends for this engine. The 2nd choice they say I have is to have a new short block installed @ an estimated cost of $1,800. If I would choose to go with a new short block, I would have to wait for one to be made because there are none available and they could not give an ETA on a new head. I asked their "mechanic" why I couldn't just have my engine rebuilt if they tore it down & found an issue and he said "Oh we don't do that." I am not very impressed with Kohler at this point, and I am pretty sure I'm done going back to our local dealer. The mower is back home again and I will take it to the dealer I purchased it from next week. He has assured me they will find the problem & get it fixed.


#13

Big Jon

Big Jon

slomo said:
You know how these small engines make a lot of carbon? And that Seafoam dissolves said carbon? Which means all that hard grit is now inside the bore, piston rings, valve guides and so on? Puts a lot of wear on an engine. Ever wonder when you remove a head, you see big bore scratches? That hard carbon you have to use a hardened metal scraper to remove gets in places where it shouldn't be.

None of the small engine manufacturers recommend Seafoam for either fuel or oil mixes.

What is recommended is de-carbonizing your engine at periodic intervals. It's in every small engine manual I've seen.

slomo
Click to expand...
How much carbon can accumulate in a new engine, in 150 hours? I've been using SeaFoam in my small engines for 25-30 years or more without a single issue. I call BS on your theory. I guess I'll owe you an apology once I get my mower back from the dealer I bought it from, if he tells me my engine is worn out from all the carbon that slushed off because I used SeaFoam in it...


#14

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

I buy seafoam by the gallon can. I do a bit of work on older tractors for folks and seafoam in the oil and gas does wonders for old engines. Never had one blow up, catch fire, seize, sctratch the cylinders, or become demon possessed. If you follow any of the tractor forums seafoam gets a lot of recommendations.


#15

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

I've always heard the exact opposite about Synthetics oil and rings seating..


#16

S

slomo

Hammermechanicman said:
I buy seafoam by the gallon can. I do a bit of work on older tractors for folks and seafoam in the oil and gas does wonders for old engines. Never had one blow up, catch fire, seize, sctratch the cylinders, or become demon possessed. If you follow any of the tractor forums seafoam gets a lot of recommendations.
Click to expand...
Tractor engines have either a steel sleeve or cast iron bores. Can we talk about mower engines on this topic?

Most mower engines are aluminum bores. Sure some use cast iron sleeves. Bulk are aluminum. See where this is going? Carbon breaking loose from Seafoam, running on a soft aluminum bore does what class?

slomo


#17

S

slomo

Big Jon said:
How much carbon can accumulate in a new engine, in 150 hours? I've been using SeaFoam in my small engines for 25-30 years or more without a single issue. I call BS on your theory. I guess I'll owe you an apology once I get my mower back from the dealer I bought it from, if he tells me my engine is worn out from all the carbon that slushed off because I used SeaFoam in it...
Click to expand...
How about on a very common push mower engine, ran maybe say 30 minutes? Yours having 300 times more run time on it. Say it again 300 times more run time.

Now back to reality. All mower engines are filthy burners. Most have no EFI and O2 sensors to burn clean. Not to mention horrible combustion chamber shapes to assist in burning. Tear down a mower engine. You pick the brand. Don't care if it says Rolls Royce on it. It will be LOADED with carbon. Now start dumping your ultra extreme magic juice in it to dislodge said carbon. Have you ever tried to clean a mower cylinder head? You need a tough steel scraper to remove it while scratching away of course. Stuff is tenacious. Look for your self.


slomo


#18

S

slomo

I would use tap water (free) before spending $10 bucks on a can of seafoam to remove carbon. Ever heard of steam cleaning the inside of your engine?

slomo


#19

G

guyina4x4

99% It's a bad head gasket.
1% rings
0% seafoam

I buy kohler command head gaskets by the dozen.
They fail between the cyl and the oil return. The oil turns the gasket mushy and opens the crankcase to combustion gas/ pressure.
Low hours doesn't mean anything to the headgasket.

It's a problem that can be fixed for less than $50 in parts and 2-3 hours of your time.


#20

Big Jon

Big Jon

guyina4x4 said:
99% It's a bad head gasket.
1% rings
0% seafoam

I buy kohler command head gaskets by the dozen.
They fail between the cyl and the oil return. The oil turns the gasket mushy and opens the crankcase to combustion gas/ pressure.
Low hours doesn't mean anything to the headgasket.

It's a problem that can be fixed for less than $50 in parts and 2-3 hours of your time.
Click to expand...
This is my guess also. Hopefully I'll know for sure by the end of next week.


#21

7394

7394

Good Luck on that.


#22

S

slomo

Big Jon said:
I've got a 48" Cub Z Force S with a Kohler Command CV680 engine with just over 150 hours on it. The mower is run on a fairly flat lawn & the only time it's run in any kind of dirty conditions is in the fall when I mulch leaves with it. It has never used any oil and gets a complete service & cleaned up every November before I put it away for the winter. It's a '13 model, so it's being run less than 20 hours per year. It has always had a mulching kit on it. It gets blown out after every mowing and the air filter has never gotten dirty. The only thing I did different last fall when I put it away was when I filled it with gas and poured Sea Foam in the gas tank, I added an extra 2 or 3 ounces just to empty the bottle.
This spring when I started it up the first time it smoked. A lot... As soon as the motor warmed up it quit smoking, ran fine, and had good power, just like it always has. I wondered at the time if it smoked so bad when I started it because of the extra Sea Foam I had added when I stored it for the winter. I idled it down a couple of times to open & close gates & each time I throttled it back up it would blow out a cloud of gray smoke for a few seconds and then clear up again. When I finished mowing I let it cool down & then blew it off with my leaf blower like I've always done & then put it back in my shed. I checked the engine oil the next day and had to add 6oz. of oil. (Kohler 10W30 Synth. blend, which is the only oil it's ever had) Once again, I've never had to add a single ounce over the past 8 years. I did check the muffler tip & it was typically clean, with just a bit of dry, gray residue on my finger.
I decided since there was no noise, knock, or power loss in the engine, to mow at least one more time before checking with my dealer about what was going on. The second mowing was an exact replay of the first except instead of using 6 ounces of oil it only used 2 ounces. I decided to keep using it. The 3rd mowing, it acted exactly the same as the first 2, except that I had to add about 4 ounces of oil. The muffler tip was black when I checked that time & slightly moist.
After that I checked with my dealer and one other dealership & told them what happened & both of them suggested I keep using it & see if it gets any worse before bringing it in to get checked. One of them suggested possibly checking valve adjustment. The other dealer said it has hydraulic lifters & won't need the valves checked...
I mowed for the 4th time today & it's another repeat of the first 3 mowings. Lots of smoke on startup, then running clean with great power & no unusual engine noise. I got puffs of gray smoke each time I would idle it down & then go full throttle again. I did notice today that after letting it cool down for 10 minutes and then blowing it off like I always do, that the red oil light cycled on & off after I started it to put it back in the shed. It went out & stayed out when I throttled it up. I have not noticed it coming on while mowing, but I suppose it's possible... This has always happened occasionally for a few seconds when I start the engine cold. I guess it's time to get it checked out. Any thoughts before I haul it in?
Click to expand...
I've re-read your initial post.
Engine was flawless for 8 years. Engine did NOT smoke at this time.
You added Seafoam and threw in a little extra because that's how we do it in America instead of READING the directions. Read again you added an entire bottle. o_O
Engine sat all winter with high solvency Seafoam in the engine.
Next spring it smoked A LOT.


I would call Seafoam and demand a new engine.
Make a video of the tear down. Show the bore and any carbon gouges in the cylinder bore/s.

SEA FOAM SALES CO.​

510 North Chestnut Street
Chaska, MN 55318
ph (952) 938-4811
fax (952) 938-5841


slomo


#23

Big Jon

Big Jon

slomo said:
I've re-read your initial post.
Engine was flawless for 8 years. Engine did NOT smoke at this time.
You added Seafoam and threw in a little extra because that's how we do it in America instead of READING the directions. Read again you added an entire bottle. o_O
Engine sat all winter with high solvency Seafoam in the engine.
Next spring it smoked A LOT.


I would call Seafoam and demand a new engine.
Make a video of the tear down. Show the bore and any carbon gouges in the cylinder bore/s.

SEA FOAM SALES CO.​

510 North Chestnut Street
Chaska, MN 55318
ph (952) 938-4811
fax (952) 938-5841


slomo
Click to expand...
You certainly like to push buttons & try to rile people up, don't you slomo! Since you re-read my initial post and got out of what I wrote, that I put in a whole bottle of SeaFoam, you must be a poor reader. You are correct that it is 8 years old. It ran flawless for 8 years (2013-2020) and started smoking on start up and using oil this spring.
As far a my my pouring in a whole bottle of Seafoam, perhaps you should read it again. I put in SeaFoam (1 ounce per gallon = 4 ounces, and put in what was left in the bottle (an additional 2-3 ounces. That's 6 or 7 ounces total in a full 4 gallon tank. The bottles I purchase are 16 oz. bottles so that's less than half than a bottle. My best guess is that SeaFoam did not ruin my engine. I'm guessing head gasket and will hopefully know soon.
No need to reply as I see no need to correspond with you again.


#24

LT1045wrh

LT1045wrh

Is the valve cover directly over the muffler? Mine smokes after sitting a while due to the oil dripping out of the valve cover seal and oiling up the muffler.


#25

Big Jon

Big Jon

LT1045wrh said:
Is the valve cover directly over the muffler? Mine smokes after sitting a while due to the oil dripping out of the valve cover seal and oiling up the muffler.
Click to expand...
No it's not actually, and there are no oil leaks (yet) on my engine. The inside of the muffler outlet has just started getting a bit oily to the touch the past two mowings. Before that it was normal with just a bit of gray exhaust dust coming off on my finger.


#26

JDeere101

JDeere101

I don,t use Seafoam, Some people I know that have used it have had issues after they used it in the gas or oil.


#27

7394

7394

I don't use Seafoam in my oil, but I swear by it for use in my gas tanks, w/100% gas for over winter storage. .

It even freed up an old air gun I forgot about & it froze up. Added a bit of seafoam & let it sit a couple days & the air gun slowly started working again.


#28

Big Jon

Big Jon

Here's a follow up on my Kohler engine. The shop called me back about 10 days ago & told me my Cub was done & ready to pick up. We've been in a serious draught here in SW Iowa this spring so even though my lawn was starting to look pretty rough, I decided to wait until we've had some rain until I mow again. I did talk with the mechanic who worked on the engine & found out that it had a blown head gasket. He replaced both head gaskets, checked the valves & replaced the spark plugs. He also changed the oil & filter. I asked him about carbon buildup & he told me it looked like a new engine inside. I also asked him about his thoughts on using SeaFoam in the gas & he told me he's a firm believer in it & uses it in everything he owns. He claims it's the best way to keep carbs & injectors from gumming up. Total cost for parts, labor & sales tax was $321. Since we got a bit over 2" of rain on Sunday, I mowed yesterday & the little Cub performed like new. I'm heading out now to our local Bomgaars store to pick up a few more cans of SeaFoam...


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