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Starter reluctant to engage flywheel on Honda GXV630

#1

U

ueww40

I have a Cub Cadet LXT-L46 Fab with the Honda GXV630 engine and about 9 months ago I replaced the starter and ever since then more often than not, the starter will just click, click, click and nothing happens and finally it kicks in and spins the engine. Upon a close inspection I realized that the starter was hitting the flywheel tooth on tooth and not slipping of in between the teeth and starting the spinning phase and turning the flywheel. Has anyone ever had anything like this happen on your GXV630 engines. It is an aftermarket starter not OEM, I must say but I talked to the manufacturer of the starter and they say they are unaware of any complaints of that nature and say that the starter is most likely fine, since it does work as intended the second it engages the flywheel. Any thoughts on that? I was thinking sharpening the teeth a bit, but that probably wouldn't be possible, because I am sure all that stuff is hardened.


#2

A

Auto Doc's

Sounds like the starter gear is upside down or the wrong tooth count on the gear.


#3

sgkent

sgkent

or the battery is weak


#4

A

Auto Doc's

It's possible, or all of the connections need to be cleaned really well with a small wire brush, so the surface contacts are 100%. Voltage and Amperage can do some funny things with even a little bit of corrosion or hazing over.


#5

U

ueww40

All of the above I checked and is good. Gear can't be upside down and tooth count is correct, battery is strong and fully charged and all the connections are clean and solid. Correct me if I am wrong but I think that the solenoid as it pushes up the gear towards the flywheel starts turning the starter gear just a little bit too late. I can see the solenoid kicking up the gear and it lands tooth on tooth under the flywheel and that's it. I assume a correctly calibrated solenoid would start turning the gear at about that point if it doesn't do so already from the moment the solenoid pushes the gear up towards the flywheel. Maybe somebody is an expert on starters and can tell me if the gear starts turning a split second before it gets to the flywheel or if it is already turning when it is on the way up. Mine, when it hits tooth on tooth, it just sits there and is not turning yet. If it started turning at that point it would slip into gear and all would be well. When it finally does work, after how many tries, it is because it so happens that the gears just happen to line up right and the starter goes all the way up into the flywheel and spins and starts the engine. I think the easiest way to find out is, I order a new one and see if it does the same thing.


#6

A

Auto Doc's

Please provide a couple of pictures of your starter, there are several different design possibilities


#7

sgkent

sgkent

the starter gear should be spinning when it hits the flywheel. If it is not then you either have an electric problem, battery problem, or a bad starter. Or the solenoid could be bad. Put a voltmeter on the battery when you go to start it and see what the battery voltage is doing. If I had a dollar for each time someone insisted a battery was good and it wasn't, I'd be a very rich man. Do the same voltage test again at the starter too to check for resistance or a bad ground.


#8

A

Auto Doc's

What led to the original starter being replaced?

Locate the back of the starter switch and pull the connector and reconnect it a couple of times to scrub the pin contacts clean a little.

The trigger wire from the starter switch to the starter solenoid could be dropping voltage to fully activate the solenoid.

Last ideas I have for now is the new starter solenoid has poor internal contacts, or the starter switch has worn contacts.

Do you have a multi meter? You will need one to track down the exact issue from the sound of things.


#9

U

ueww40

sgkent, I think that you are probably the closest to the problem. The starter gear is not spinning when it hits the flywheel but will once the gear moves further up and engages the flywheel. Auto Doc, the original starter was replaced because it was frozen, the replacement was identical to the original. I appreciate all the suggestions but I think I can save myself most of the testing because this has been going on for almost 8 months and the malfunction is known (it lands tooth on tooth and doesn't go in between teeth because it's not spinning yet). If the starter gear is supposed to be spinning when it hits the flywheel, like sgkent said (mine isn't) then I am pretty sure we could call it a starter problem. A new one is on the way. We will know soon. I will certainly keep y'all updated


#10

A

Auto Doc's

I'll be curious to see what happens. Thanks.


#11

U

ueww40

Update! I received a new starter and to my disappointment it does exactly what the old one does. So that means that the starters are working as designed. If 2 starters of the same model and brand doing the same thing it is probably by design. The starters are not OEM but in no way can be called cheap Chinese junk. The company refers to itself as a manufacturer located in the U.S. and is selling a lot of these, I am sure, and according to them it is the right model for my GXV630 Honda engine. If few or no GXV630 owners bought any of these starters, the manufacturer may not be aware of the problem like he says. I don't think that the problem is with my engine. The mounting surface on the block where the starter is mounted on is clean, undamaged and the other variable is the flywheel, which looks like it has never been removed or touched in any way and seems to line up where it should line up. I know many other engines probably can use this same starter and it may work flawless with them but it certainly does not work on my GXV630 engine because the spinning of the starter gear and it popping up are not simultaneous. There is a delay. Maybe the spinning starts half way up, or maybe 40 % up, I don't know but one thing is for sure. When the starter kicks in it sits under the flywheel tooth on tooth and is not spinning and therefore NO starting. Monday I did an experiment with the hopes to prove this point. I built a 0.10" spacer/shim which I put between starter and mounting surface, which would increase the travel of the starter gear by 1/10 of an inch before it gets to the flywheel in the hopes that it goes over the threshold where the spinning begins. And sure enough - it did! I guess now the spinning begins just 100reds of a second before the gear hits the flywheel and it slips right into gear every time. I must have started the engine now at least 20 times in the last 2 days and zero fail. Well, I don't know what's going on here and I am not going to lose anymore sleep over it. It works like it is supposed to and sometimes you just don't have an answer.


#12

A

Auto Doc's

I've shimmed a lot of old truck starters in my career, but never for a mower starter.

Glad you found a solution.

It might be a good idea to make sure the starter is still bolted down tight after a while of running and the shim is seated in good.


#13

U

ueww40

It might be a good idea to make sure the starter is still bolted down tight after a while of running and the shim is seated in good.
Yes Sir!


#14

Tiger Small Engine

Tiger Small Engine

Update! I received a new starter and to my disappointment it does exactly what the old one does. So that means that the starters are working as designed. If 2 starters of the same model and brand doing the same thing it is probably by design. The starters are not OEM but in no way can be called cheap Chinese junk. The company refers to itself as a manufacturer located in the U.S. and is selling a lot of these, I am sure, and according to them it is the right model for my GXV630 Honda engine. If few or no GXV630 owners bought any of these starters, the manufacturer may not be aware of the problem like he says. I don't think that the problem is with my engine. The mounting surface on the block where the starter is mounted on is clean, undamaged and the other variable is the flywheel, which looks like it has never been removed or touched in any way and seems to line up where it should line up. I know many other engines probably can use this same starter and it may work flawless with them but it certainly does not work on my GXV630 engine because the spinning of the starter gear and it popping up are not simultaneous. There is a delay. Maybe the spinning starts half way up, or maybe 40 % up, I don't know but one thing is for sure. When the starter kicks in it sits under the flywheel tooth on tooth and is not spinning and therefore NO starting. Monday I did an experiment with the hopes to prove this point. I built a 0.10" spacer/shim which I put between starter and mounting surface, which would increase the travel of the starter gear by 1/10 of an inch before it gets to the flywheel in the hopes that it goes over the threshold where the spinning begins. And sure enough - it did! I guess now the spinning begins just 100reds of a second before the gear hits the flywheel and it slips right into gear every time. I must have started the engine now at least 20 times in the last 2 days and zero fail. Well, I don't know what's going on here and I am not going to lose anymore sleep over it. It works like it is supposed to and sometimes you just don't have an answer.
Maybe over time and usage, the engine developed just enough play that the starter wasn’t lining up exactly right. Glad you got it fixed.

Lots of customers think their battery is strong and good. I load test it in front of them, and reality sets in quickly.


#15

B

bentrim

Often the starting circuit, as it passes thru all the safety switches, loses voltage and does not have enough to activate the solenoid properly. John Deere had the same issue with their tractors and even made a kit to fix it.
To test the problem, short the big post on the solenoid to the S termial of the solenoid. If the starter now turns the engine you have found the problem. Or take a voltage reading at the S terminal of the starter when it is engaged.
To fix the problem, purchase a relay and wire it to the start circuit as close to the stater as possible, were it is "safe".
One like this -- https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-Automo...rness/dp/B00FOVNNL8?tag=usdeshoppin04-20&th=1
To wire in the circuit: remove wire from S terminal, Wire a wire from the battery post of the starter to terminal 30, wire a wire from 85 to a good groud, wire the original S wire to 86, wire terminal 87 to starter S terminal.
Why t works: the original wiring as it ages and corrodes cannot carry the full volltage anymore so the starter does not have enough "power" to force the solenoid to contact the electrical connections inside the solenoid to turn the starter so the teeth will align. The relay will close at a much lower voltage and because the relay has a lot less voltage drop it gives the starter move "power" to turn the starter.

Here is the John Deere bulletin on the kit, If my "wiring" was not expllained well enough go to the last page of the bulletin.

Attachments


  • am107421_instructions.pdf
    1 MB · Views: 7


#16

G

Gord Baker

the starter gear should be spinning when it hits the flywheel. If it is not then you either have an electric problem, battery problem, or a bad starter. Or the solenoid could be bad. Put a voltmeter on the battery when you go to start it and see what the battery voltage is doing. If I had a dollar for each time someone insisted a battery was good and it wasn't, I'd be a very rich man. Do the same voltage test again at the starter too to check for resistance or a bad ground.
Be sure the Bendix shaft is well lubricated.


#17

U

ueww40

None of the problems mentioned above by Gord Baker or bentrim apply to this case. Testing showed that there was nothing wrong with the starter or anything else, except for one thing. My starter had a delay before the spinning started and so did the replacement unit, indicating that this was by design. It could be possible that the OEM starter or other brands don't have that delay and start spinning the second the gear is kicked out by the solenoid and therefore never display the problem I encountered. I know, it shouldn't be, but we live in a world of "Gotchas" But the problem has been solved with the spacer that I fabricated and i intend to contact the manufacturer in a few days to see if we can get to the bottom of this, if this is even still possible in this day and age of robots, AI, chat flunkies, off shore sweet talking know-nothing tech support and other ineffective nuisances


#18

B

bentrim

Just one question Have you checked the voltage at the S terminal when starting? If so Please report back. Thank You.


#19

sgkent

sgkent

he says the voltaqes are good and the battery good too. I asked because that is the most common type problem but hey, if he is only interested in doing it his way, it is a free country. What do I know, only replaced and rebuilt maybe several hundred starters, battery cables, and batteries in my life.


#20

B

bentrim

he says the voltaqes are good and the battery good too. I asked because that is the most common type problem but hey, if he is only interested in doing it his way, it is a free country. What do I know, only replaced and rebuilt maybe several hundred starters, battery cables, and batteries in my life.
Yep I have repaired many mowers that just clicked when the key was turned, installed the relay and no more just clicks. Only trying to help -- But--


#21

U

ueww40

I am sorry guys. I didn't mean to sound flippant. I appreciate any and all advise but my problem had already been isolated and I already eliminated all the possible causes you mentioned as was pointed out in posts #11 and #12. The starter has been working like a charm after the spacer was installed.


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