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Simplicity Prestige, only on incline - reverse is not smooth but a jerky rhythm
#1
E
endeavor
E
endeavor
My post title should really be:
Simplicity SCS suspension models vrs Tuff Torq Transmission = reverse is not smooth but a jerky rhythm, because pretty much All newer models of Simplicity Broadmoor, Conquest, and Prestige riding lawn tractors with SCS Suspension (many thousands?) that come with varying model Tuff Torq Transmissions K72, K62, etc... have this problem!
I purchased brand new in 2023 Simplicity Prestige
Factory Link to my exact unit and model: Link
My Prestige tractor model is: 2691678 Rev 01 DOM 04-22
My Transmission model is: Tuff Torq K72K 787Q0124050
When driving forward up a hill there are no problems with transmission speeds, but, if I stop on the hill and backup down that incline of (7° or greater) in reverse, as I'm backing down in reverse the transmission suspension wants to surge fast to slow, fast to slow, it's a jerky but in rhythm motion. If I feather the peddle at a very very snails pace slowly it will work okay but that is extremely slow. Interesting is if I turn the tractor around on that same incline but in reverse 'back up the hill' it works fine in reverse at any speed without the jerky motion. On level ground both Forward & Reverse at any speed the transmission is flawless. Forward is always flawless no matter the incline, the problem is only in reverse on an incline backing down on it.
I made a quick video showing the problem, I've uploaded it to dropbox so you can see this issue in action for yourself:
Here's the: Video Link
At first I was thinking it was a Transmission problem, so I contacted Tuff Torq and their reply to me was and I quote:
"That sounds like some play between the linkage and the shock absorber on the control lever"
Well I easily can reach up into where that very small transmission shock absorber is on the linkage, and it pulls in/out with good absorber resistance and seems functionally normal, and I've checked over all the Control Lever and its linkage flow he mentioned from the reverse pedal back, and it all seems to be in order.
Note: this little transmission shock absorber he mentioned above has nothing to do with the 2 large frame shock absorbers on back. fwiw, the small transmission shock absorber, searching the web I saw a mention of it's action of reason. I saw a post talking about it: Here ..now although it's a different situation, but anyway since it was so easily accessible from the bottom of the back on mine, to check I simply disconnected it by sliding the C washer off of its mounting, and it was totally disconnected. Well, now I experienced the reason for that little shock absorber, because without it connected, forward wants to jump out fast, etc, ..and the reverse is a bit different, but the underlying action of the original problem is still evident though - and so it's not that. I can see that small transmission shock absorber is there for a reason and it works, which is smoothing out the forward/reverse start-off actions into smoother transitions. It was worth the try though to check it, especially since it was the Tuff Torq tech who also mentioned it.
Yes the fluid level in transmission is on the full mark, it's also nothing to do with trapped air within.
In my pursuit I also talked with a Simplicity repair technician and showing him the video, and he said neither he or their co-workers have never seen this before. He suggested I try to lock down the suspension and see if that helps, which I was going to do that, but then I noticed on the 2 large back shock absorbers there was a collar adjustment on each them with 5 different slide levels. It was originally set on the lowest #1 or cushiest ride, and so I adjusted it to the firmest #5 level. You do that by jacking up the tractor placing the jack right under that circular hole in plate where the cart hitch-point is, jack it up till the wheels just come off the floor a quarter inch - that takes the pressure off the shock springs and they are relaxed - so you can more easily adjust it. Use channel locks pliers, you can even put duck tape on the teeth as to not indent into the collar metal, and grab around the collar and gently turn it to the next level.
Here is a picture I took of where the collar is on the shock absorbers, and its adjustment slots:
(you'll need to log in to be able to click it to see full size picture)
After I put the adjustment to the new Firmest setting, tested it, I noticed a greater than 65% reduction in reverse jerkiness (maybe even 75% or more, depending) helping it quell the reverse oscillation bounce rhythm.
The problem then of course is, once you have already gotten use to this really nice fancy SCS suspension that Simplicity enticed us with: Simplicity SCS system ...or as well talked about: Here
...is that it drops the cushy ride down quite a bit, 40% or maybe even in half 50%? ...aprox, and ymmv.
..and so what's the point of having their cushy ride if you can't fully use it without this fussy problem. I guess we could look at the positive side, and think that half of it is better than nothing.
Hey, if you don't have continuous high incline property like we do, good for you, no worries, leave it set on cushy #1
So it seems basically the design of the 'fancy floating suspension' interaction with the whole frame and transmission flow - could of been designed better. I get it though, who would of thought after in the later years when the suspension engineers designed it, they would think "hey lets take it out on a 10° incline and backup to see if everything still works okay" ..Well at this point nearly 10 yrs after suspension development they should of especially since this is so many years later!
Yes my unit is still under warranty it only has 40 hrs on it, but the dealer doesn't seem to be aware of the problem. Being under warranty is not my request or issue here please don't mention it. Also I'd much rather fix it myself if I could rather than bring it in for warranty. I want to learn, but also importantly to help anyone else who's machine is not under warranty - lets share the knowledge!
I can see now it's not just my Prestige that does this, it's anyone with this SCS suspension system.
~For instance we have current member C22094 last year with his Broadmoor mention this problem: Here
~I also found another person in another forum having a Conquest - mention the same issue: Here
So, for now, for me still testing, I've decided to put the shock absorber collar adjustment in its middle Medium setting. Yes it still can do its jerky there on Medium for sure, but at least it still gives a decent ride with suspension, but, you can better control that jerkiness here by, importantly, slide your engine speed throttle all the way down to Low when you backup in reverse on an incline, which being belt driven lowers the rpm transferred thus pressure within the transmission, and also you can further help when you feather the reverse pedal push slower to just under the jerky oscillation bounce threshold that sets the suspension system in its jerky motion - this all together helps it be less reactionary. I change my mind every few days to test where I want to finally leave it - perhaps I'll settle on setting #4 just before #5 firm... time will tell.
Again though the Best (not perfect) so far I've found is having the frame shock absorbers set to Firm which has Much Less jerkiness, but it lessens the purpose of the nice suspension! So let's try and find a Better Fix!
I'm now sure there has to be MANY simplicity tractors models (with SCS suspension) out there in the world that does this reverse jerky like ours, and simplicity has to know of a better fix besides strapping the suspension solid putting it out of working mode entirely, or what I found out by my own testing changing the shock absorbers settings to Firm. How can Simplicity not of known about this issue yet?
We just need to figure out if there is an even better fix that Simplicity knows about, and how to find out who/where this knowledge is and at what dealer (or which technician out there has come across it) and what that fix is! (maybe even have a kit released to resolve the issue) In the meantime it's a firm setting on the shock absorbers, if, the rest of you have that collar adjustment on your shocks? ..mine does. I'm guessing it will turn out to be a specific engineering fix of something very simple to do, or an add-on repair kit; maybe even to add an extra small transmission shock absorber in tandem.. ..or whatever. Now that Simplicity has gone out of business selling them though, I dunno..
If there are any Simplicity techs out there that have any more information about this issue, would you Please post with any details that could help us get this issue resolved better, thank you!
Thank you!
Simplicity SCS suspension models vrs Tuff Torq Transmission = reverse is not smooth but a jerky rhythm, because pretty much All newer models of Simplicity Broadmoor, Conquest, and Prestige riding lawn tractors with SCS Suspension (many thousands?) that come with varying model Tuff Torq Transmissions K72, K62, etc... have this problem!
I purchased brand new in 2023 Simplicity Prestige
Factory Link to my exact unit and model: Link
My Prestige tractor model is: 2691678 Rev 01 DOM 04-22
My Transmission model is: Tuff Torq K72K 787Q0124050
When driving forward up a hill there are no problems with transmission speeds, but, if I stop on the hill and backup down that incline of (7° or greater) in reverse, as I'm backing down in reverse the transmission suspension wants to surge fast to slow, fast to slow, it's a jerky but in rhythm motion. If I feather the peddle at a very very snails pace slowly it will work okay but that is extremely slow. Interesting is if I turn the tractor around on that same incline but in reverse 'back up the hill' it works fine in reverse at any speed without the jerky motion. On level ground both Forward & Reverse at any speed the transmission is flawless. Forward is always flawless no matter the incline, the problem is only in reverse on an incline backing down on it.
I made a quick video showing the problem, I've uploaded it to dropbox so you can see this issue in action for yourself:
Here's the: Video Link
At first I was thinking it was a Transmission problem, so I contacted Tuff Torq and their reply to me was and I quote:
"That sounds like some play between the linkage and the shock absorber on the control lever"
Well I easily can reach up into where that very small transmission shock absorber is on the linkage, and it pulls in/out with good absorber resistance and seems functionally normal, and I've checked over all the Control Lever and its linkage flow he mentioned from the reverse pedal back, and it all seems to be in order.
Note: this little transmission shock absorber he mentioned above has nothing to do with the 2 large frame shock absorbers on back. fwiw, the small transmission shock absorber, searching the web I saw a mention of it's action of reason. I saw a post talking about it: Here ..now although it's a different situation, but anyway since it was so easily accessible from the bottom of the back on mine, to check I simply disconnected it by sliding the C washer off of its mounting, and it was totally disconnected. Well, now I experienced the reason for that little shock absorber, because without it connected, forward wants to jump out fast, etc, ..and the reverse is a bit different, but the underlying action of the original problem is still evident though - and so it's not that. I can see that small transmission shock absorber is there for a reason and it works, which is smoothing out the forward/reverse start-off actions into smoother transitions. It was worth the try though to check it, especially since it was the Tuff Torq tech who also mentioned it.
Yes the fluid level in transmission is on the full mark, it's also nothing to do with trapped air within.
In my pursuit I also talked with a Simplicity repair technician and showing him the video, and he said neither he or their co-workers have never seen this before. He suggested I try to lock down the suspension and see if that helps, which I was going to do that, but then I noticed on the 2 large back shock absorbers there was a collar adjustment on each them with 5 different slide levels. It was originally set on the lowest #1 or cushiest ride, and so I adjusted it to the firmest #5 level. You do that by jacking up the tractor placing the jack right under that circular hole in plate where the cart hitch-point is, jack it up till the wheels just come off the floor a quarter inch - that takes the pressure off the shock springs and they are relaxed - so you can more easily adjust it. Use channel locks pliers, you can even put duck tape on the teeth as to not indent into the collar metal, and grab around the collar and gently turn it to the next level.
Here is a picture I took of where the collar is on the shock absorbers, and its adjustment slots:
(you'll need to log in to be able to click it to see full size picture)
After I put the adjustment to the new Firmest setting, tested it, I noticed a greater than 65% reduction in reverse jerkiness (maybe even 75% or more, depending) helping it quell the reverse oscillation bounce rhythm.
The problem then of course is, once you have already gotten use to this really nice fancy SCS suspension that Simplicity enticed us with: Simplicity SCS system ...or as well talked about: Here
...is that it drops the cushy ride down quite a bit, 40% or maybe even in half 50%? ...aprox, and ymmv.
..and so what's the point of having their cushy ride if you can't fully use it without this fussy problem. I guess we could look at the positive side, and think that half of it is better than nothing.
Hey, if you don't have continuous high incline property like we do, good for you, no worries, leave it set on cushy #1
So it seems basically the design of the 'fancy floating suspension' interaction with the whole frame and transmission flow - could of been designed better. I get it though, who would of thought after in the later years when the suspension engineers designed it, they would think "hey lets take it out on a 10° incline and backup to see if everything still works okay" ..Well at this point nearly 10 yrs after suspension development they should of especially since this is so many years later!
Yes my unit is still under warranty it only has 40 hrs on it, but the dealer doesn't seem to be aware of the problem. Being under warranty is not my request or issue here please don't mention it. Also I'd much rather fix it myself if I could rather than bring it in for warranty. I want to learn, but also importantly to help anyone else who's machine is not under warranty - lets share the knowledge!
I can see now it's not just my Prestige that does this, it's anyone with this SCS suspension system.
~For instance we have current member C22094 last year with his Broadmoor mention this problem: Here
~I also found another person in another forum having a Conquest - mention the same issue: Here
So, for now, for me still testing, I've decided to put the shock absorber collar adjustment in its middle Medium setting. Yes it still can do its jerky there on Medium for sure, but at least it still gives a decent ride with suspension, but, you can better control that jerkiness here by, importantly, slide your engine speed throttle all the way down to Low when you backup in reverse on an incline, which being belt driven lowers the rpm transferred thus pressure within the transmission, and also you can further help when you feather the reverse pedal push slower to just under the jerky oscillation bounce threshold that sets the suspension system in its jerky motion - this all together helps it be less reactionary. I change my mind every few days to test where I want to finally leave it - perhaps I'll settle on setting #4 just before #5 firm... time will tell.
Again though the Best (not perfect) so far I've found is having the frame shock absorbers set to Firm which has Much Less jerkiness, but it lessens the purpose of the nice suspension! So let's try and find a Better Fix!
I'm now sure there has to be MANY simplicity tractors models (with SCS suspension) out there in the world that does this reverse jerky like ours, and simplicity has to know of a better fix besides strapping the suspension solid putting it out of working mode entirely, or what I found out by my own testing changing the shock absorbers settings to Firm. How can Simplicity not of known about this issue yet?
We just need to figure out if there is an even better fix that Simplicity knows about, and how to find out who/where this knowledge is and at what dealer (or which technician out there has come across it) and what that fix is! (maybe even have a kit released to resolve the issue) In the meantime it's a firm setting on the shock absorbers, if, the rest of you have that collar adjustment on your shocks? ..mine does. I'm guessing it will turn out to be a specific engineering fix of something very simple to do, or an add-on repair kit; maybe even to add an extra small transmission shock absorber in tandem.. ..or whatever. Now that Simplicity has gone out of business selling them though, I dunno..
If there are any Simplicity techs out there that have any more information about this issue, would you Please post with any details that could help us get this issue resolved better, thank you!
Thank you!
#2
C22094
C22094
#3
M
mechanic mark
www.simplicitymfg.com
See Operators Manual above or slope operation. "Major Safety Issue", your tractor is operating as it should, flawlessly, you stated in first paragraph. Transmission brake is working as it should.when backing down slope, you say jerky I say intermittant braking which means do not back down a steep slope if you value your life. thanks Mark
M
mechanic mark
Manuals & Parts for your Simplicity machine – Simplicity
Need to find the owner's manual or small engine parts for your Simplicity lawn equipment? Simply use our search engine to find Simplicity parts and manuals.
#4
E
endeavor
Oh come on! Semantics. This is taken totally out of context for one thing...
...and btw this issue has nothing to do with any brake at all
No one is saying to back down any slope and there is no reason to do so. I certainly never do on purpose, except for the occasional times you come upon a stump or high rut and you don't want to scalp (I have a lot of that on my property) ...and so you naturally have to backup a few feet to go around it - and it's dangerous to do so with the lurch jerk that instantly happens - and that is the problem.
The video I posted backing up like that is Only for example Only to showcase the problem, period; but again and again I certainly never need to or do that as a matter of everyday operation.
All Simplicity manuals state not more than a wimpy 10° incline for safety is their disclaimer statement for legalities, and that's perfectly fine. This is not at all about that!
_____________________
Edit a week later to mention, the member of this forum who posted in post #2 above:
www.lawnmowerforum.com
E
endeavor
Oh come on! Semantics. This is taken totally out of context for one thing...
...and btw this issue has nothing to do with any brake at all
No one is saying to back down any slope and there is no reason to do so. I certainly never do on purpose, except for the occasional times you come upon a stump or high rut and you don't want to scalp (I have a lot of that on my property) ...and so you naturally have to backup a few feet to go around it - and it's dangerous to do so with the lurch jerk that instantly happens - and that is the problem.
The video I posted backing up like that is Only for example Only to showcase the problem, period; but again and again I certainly never need to or do that as a matter of everyday operation.
All Simplicity manuals state not more than a wimpy 10° incline for safety is their disclaimer statement for legalities, and that's perfectly fine. This is not at all about that!
_____________________
Edit a week later to mention, the member of this forum who posted in post #2 above:
C22094
...he has the same problem as me - and you can see his post here:
Broadmoor jerky reverse
I have a new Broadmoor 25/52 with suspension. When backing slowly down an incline it is very jerky as if I am applying the brake every foot or so (does not do this on level ground). The dealer contacted Simplicity and was told this is due to the shock absorber suspension (which makes no sense to...
www.lawnmowerforum.com