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Scag Tigercat dies
#1
B
Bryan Taylor Johnson
my tigercat with only 185 hours, less than 3 yrs old dies when, I stop, turn blades off, put steering arms in neutral, pull park brake on, it dies sometimes when I stand up off the seat. ive had it to the dealer 3 times in the last year. when it dies it wont start back up. it acts like the battery is unhooked. just got back from the shop and I got off to move a limb and it died. it had to sit 20 min before it would start back up. the dealer replaced the ignition switch once. the last time they replaced the safety module. some times it goes 2 months before acting up again. it is a 32 mile round trip every time I take it to the shop. has anybody had this problem with their scag?
B
Bryan Taylor Johnson
my tigercat with only 185 hours, less than 3 yrs old dies when, I stop, turn blades off, put steering arms in neutral, pull park brake on, it dies sometimes when I stand up off the seat. ive had it to the dealer 3 times in the last year. when it dies it wont start back up. it acts like the battery is unhooked. just got back from the shop and I got off to move a limb and it died. it had to sit 20 min before it would start back up. the dealer replaced the ignition switch once. the last time they replaced the safety module. some times it goes 2 months before acting up again. it is a 32 mile round trip every time I take it to the shop. has anybody had this problem with their scag?
#2
M
Mad Mackie
M
Mad Mackie
Did your dealer ever replace the seat switch? The seat switch is the controlling switch in the electrical portion of the machine safety circuits. Look at the wiring diagram in the back of your owners manual and you can trace the safety circuits. The parts department at my local Scag dealer has a box of seat switches on the counter along with other frequently requested parts like fuel filters, start solenoids and more. The seat switch that Scag uses is very common to many other makes of machines, I keep a spare in my parts stash.
#3
I
ILENGINE
I
ILENGINE
what little I have worked on the Scags it seems the seat switch is the controller of all things scag. it won't start, will die if you look at it wrong etc.
#4
S
Steve0853
S
Steve0853
I have a 2 year old Turf Tiger that did the same thing a few times. Instead of constantly diagnosing and replacing the seat switch, I simply used a small sheet metal screw and made it permanently "on". No more mystery failures to start.
#5
M
Mad Mackie
You are correct. The seat switch on Scags has a dual purpose, one being in the primary safety circuit and two in the engine cranking circuit, but all in conjunction with the safety interlock module. The cranking relay and the key switch are next in the troubleshooting process.
The seat switch is an easy item to replace, but the electrical connector must be removed first and it has a locking loop on it that must be carefully lifted before the connector can be disconnected.
I have bypassed the seat switch on my Ingersoll 4018 GT so the engine will keep running when I'm off the seat and being a hand controlled machine, I can move the tractor while standing beside it, however I am not an advocate of bypassing seat switches and I will not do it to any customers machine regardless of their insistence to do so!!!
M
Mad Mackie
what little I have worked on the Scags it seems the seat switch is the controller of all things scag. it won't start, will die if you look at it wrong etc.
You are correct. The seat switch on Scags has a dual purpose, one being in the primary safety circuit and two in the engine cranking circuit, but all in conjunction with the safety interlock module. The cranking relay and the key switch are next in the troubleshooting process.
The seat switch is an easy item to replace, but the electrical connector must be removed first and it has a locking loop on it that must be carefully lifted before the connector can be disconnected.
I have bypassed the seat switch on my Ingersoll 4018 GT so the engine will keep running when I'm off the seat and being a hand controlled machine, I can move the tractor while standing beside it, however I am not an advocate of bypassing seat switches and I will not do it to any customers machine regardless of their insistence to do so!!!
#6
B
Bryan Taylor Johnson
B
Bryan Taylor Johnson
I read your answers to my tiger cat problem. It sounds like the seat switch is the problem. I called the dealer today and ordered one. I have bypassed it for now and it is working ok so far. I just hated to pay so much for a mower and have it quit when I need it the most. this is my first zero turn commercial mower and I did not expect to have problems so often. It's just one problem that was not properly diagnosed the first time. I am a auto tech and I know it's not easy to fix the problem the first time, but I think when the SCAG dealer couldn't get it to act up they thought it was all in my head. Thanks for your input to my problem. I hope and pray the switch takes care of it.
#7
M
Mad Mackie
M
Mad Mackie
The seat switch is in a spot where it is subject to dust particularly if a collection system is installed. Folks that pressure wash these type machines that have unsealed electrical systems increase electrical problems on their machines. I keep a test jumper in my tool box and install it when I'm troubleshooting a machine and need to operate the mower deck. Intermittent electrical problems are always a pain to deal with.
#8
B
Bryan Taylor Johnson
When I get through mowing I always blow the grass and dust off my scag with my leaf blower. When I wash it with water I always make sure the engine is cool and I keep water away from the carb and electrical the best I can. I did notice the safety module the dealer installed has no water tight connectors. You would think that wiring that can be exposed to water and so much dust would be better sealed. I would never use a pressure washer on my mower. I just hope the seat safety switch is the problem because it is an easy fix. I just wish the dealer had replaced it first. I have talked to a lot of SCAG owners that love their mowers. I like my mower but this one problem almost makes me think I bought a lemon. I'm just glad I don't mow for a living because I don't have a good backup mower. I was so desperate that I was going to give SCAG manufacture a call and see if they couldn't help solve my problem. Thanks everybody for your help. BTJ
B
Bryan Taylor Johnson
The seat switch is in a spot where it is subject to dust particularly if a collection system is installed. Folks that pressure wash these type machines that have unsealed electrical systems increase electrical problems on their machines. I keep a test jumper in my tool box and install it when I'm troubleshooting a machine and need to operate the mower deck. Intermittent electrical problems are always a pain to deal with.
When I get through mowing I always blow the grass and dust off my scag with my leaf blower. When I wash it with water I always make sure the engine is cool and I keep water away from the carb and electrical the best I can. I did notice the safety module the dealer installed has no water tight connectors. You would think that wiring that can be exposed to water and so much dust would be better sealed. I would never use a pressure washer on my mower. I just hope the seat safety switch is the problem because it is an easy fix. I just wish the dealer had replaced it first. I have talked to a lot of SCAG owners that love their mowers. I like my mower but this one problem almost makes me think I bought a lemon. I'm just glad I don't mow for a living because I don't have a good backup mower. I was so desperate that I was going to give SCAG manufacture a call and see if they couldn't help solve my problem. Thanks everybody for your help. BTJ
#9
B
billymagg
The Christian Campground where I mow, just purchased a two year old Scag Tigercat to replace one of our 35+ year old John Deere F935s, and I'm really glad I found this thread, as I also do quite a bit of our own maintenance. So Bryan, I am supposing all is well??
B
billymagg
When I get through mowing I always blow the grass and dust off my scag with my leaf blower. When I wash it with water I always make sure the engine is cool and I keep water away from the carb and electrical the best I can. I did notice the safety module the dealer installed has no water tight connectors. You would think that wiring that can be exposed to water and so much dust would be better sealed. I would never use a pressure washer on my mower. I just hope the seat safety switch is the problem because it is an easy fix. I just wish the dealer had replaced it first. I have talked to a lot of SCAG owners that love their mowers. I like my mower but this one problem almost makes me think I bought a lemon. I'm just glad I don't mow for a living because I don't have a good backup mower. I was so desperate that I was going to give SCAG manufacture a call and see if they couldn't help solve my problem. Thanks everybody for your help. BTJ
The Christian Campground where I mow, just purchased a two year old Scag Tigercat to replace one of our 35+ year old John Deere F935s, and I'm really glad I found this thread, as I also do quite a bit of our own maintenance. So Bryan, I am supposing all is well??
#10
M
Mad Mackie
M
Mad Mackie
We'll have to wait and see how Bryan fairs with his TC, hopefully it is just the seat switch.
billymagg, I think that you will find the Tiger Cat to be an excellent machine. Should you need info on the TC, get the model and serial numbers of the machine, go to scag.com, in the L/H column there is a link to manuals, click on it. Click on STC Scag Tiger Cat and find your serial number group. The manual is a pdf download that you can save and or print. The wiring diagram in in the last pages of the owners manual portion, I suggest that you print it as it is good to make notes on it that will make understanding the electrical system easier as you become more familiar with the machine.
As a retired mech I no longer have the dealers parts dept available, so I stock parts for my own machines to keep service down time to a minimum.
I certainly hope that Bryan's dealer stocks seat switches, if they don't, I suggest that he find a quality servicing dealer. The seat switch may not be the culprit, but on Scags if the seat switch isn't functioning correctly, then the machine won't function. I even stock a new electronic control module, something that some Scag dealers don't stock and at $119 each, you will probably not find anyone like me who does this. I even stock new electric clutches for my machines! Some of this attitude that I have comes from having been an aircraft mech in the US Army and what I had to beg, borrow or steal to keep in my secret parts stash to keep them flying!!! Could be why my fellow soldiers nicknamed me Mad Mackie and a few unmentionables!!!
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:
billymagg, I think that you will find the Tiger Cat to be an excellent machine. Should you need info on the TC, get the model and serial numbers of the machine, go to scag.com, in the L/H column there is a link to manuals, click on it. Click on STC Scag Tiger Cat and find your serial number group. The manual is a pdf download that you can save and or print. The wiring diagram in in the last pages of the owners manual portion, I suggest that you print it as it is good to make notes on it that will make understanding the electrical system easier as you become more familiar with the machine.
As a retired mech I no longer have the dealers parts dept available, so I stock parts for my own machines to keep service down time to a minimum.
I certainly hope that Bryan's dealer stocks seat switches, if they don't, I suggest that he find a quality servicing dealer. The seat switch may not be the culprit, but on Scags if the seat switch isn't functioning correctly, then the machine won't function. I even stock a new electronic control module, something that some Scag dealers don't stock and at $119 each, you will probably not find anyone like me who does this. I even stock new electric clutches for my machines! Some of this attitude that I have comes from having been an aircraft mech in the US Army and what I had to beg, borrow or steal to keep in my secret parts stash to keep them flying!!! Could be why my fellow soldiers nicknamed me Mad Mackie and a few unmentionables!!!
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:
#11
B
Bryan Taylor Johnson
B
Bryan Taylor Johnson
This is Bryan again. My tiger cat worked well one time after I bypassed the seat switch. I picked up a new seat switch but decided to leave it bypassed to see if it would act up. I mowed for 35 min and parked it outside my shed, I don't like to park hot mowers inside until they cool off. Two hours later I got on it to park it and it wouldn't crank. No battery voltage at all going to the start side of the starter solenoid. The battery is not the problem. When I picked up the seat switch at the dealer I was told it had already been replaced twice. I new then that it wasn't the problem. I have 12 volts on both sides of my bypass wire. I plugged the new seat switch to the harness and worked it by hand and it didn't make any difference. Since it is still under warranty I turned the dump valves and winched it on my trailer. I took it to the dealer on sat the 5th only to find out they were closed for the holiday, another 32 mile round trip. I finally took it to the shop while it was acting up and nobody there. I took it to another dealer in the next county and talked to a guy that really seemed concerned about my problem. He said the problem my be in the pto switch or the park brake switch. They couldn't look at it Saturday because their shop was closed, but while I was there the t cat made a fool out of me again, it started right up. I took it back home and finished my yard. I didn't dare shut it off until I got thru mowing. Now I have to decide which dealer to take it to, the one where I bought it or the one closest to home. I'm not made at the dealer but at the situation. I'm about to contact scag corp because I'm getting desperate. The mower had never quit while I was mowing, only when I stop to get off. This is the first time it wouldn't start after I parked it for a while. When it didn't start I video tape with my smart phone to show that I wasn't crazy. Oh well back to the old drawing board next week. THANKS BTJWe'll have to wait and see how Bryan fairs with his TC, hopefully it is just the seat switch.
billymagg, I think that you will find the Tiger Cat to be an excellent machine. Should you need info on the TC, get the model and serial numbers of the machine, go to scag.com, in the L/H column there is a link to manuals, click on it. Click on STC Scag Tiger Cat and find your serial number group. The manual is a pdf download that you can save and or print. The wiring diagram in in the last pages of the owners manual portion, I suggest that you print it as it is good to make notes on it that will make understanding the electrical system easier as you become more familiar with the machine.
As a retired mech I no longer have the dealers parts dept available, so I stock parts for my own machines to keep service down time to a minimum.
I certainly hope that Bryan's dealer stocks seat switches, if they don't, I suggest that he find a quality servicing dealer. The seat switch may not be the culprit, but on Scags if the seat switch isn't functioning correctly, then the machine won't function. I even stock a new electronic control module, something that some Scag dealers don't stock and at $119 each, you will probably not find anyone like me who does this. I even stock new electric clutches for my machines! Some of this attitude that I have comes from having been an aircraft mech in the US Army and what I had to beg, borrow or steal to keep in my secret parts stash to keep them flying!!! Could be why my fellow soldiers nicknamed me Mad Mackie and a few unmentionables!!!
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:
#12
M
Mad Mackie
M
Mad Mackie
Under the panel with the keyswitch and close to it is the cranking relay. When all the safety circuits are in the correct order, (seat switch, parking brake switch, L/H and R/H travel lever switches, PTO off, power is then felt at the control module. The control module will then ground the coil in the cranking relay, closing the contacts which allow power to the engine start solenoid and the engine will crank.
When the engine is running and all the safety circuits are in the OK to operate the mower, then the PTO switch can be pulled on and the deck will operate.
The cranking relay is a known problem and will get intermittent before it finally quits. This relay had a diode in it and should be replaced with like part.
Of course loose, dirty and or corroded contacts anywhere in the electrical system can give you problems.
When the engine is running and all the safety circuits are in the OK to operate the mower, then the PTO switch can be pulled on and the deck will operate.
The cranking relay is a known problem and will get intermittent before it finally quits. This relay had a diode in it and should be replaced with like part.
Of course loose, dirty and or corroded contacts anywhere in the electrical system can give you problems.
#13
B
billymagg
Wow Bryan, we may be cousins, I always thought those things just happened to me, and yes I have hauled my John Deere while it was running, we had some real problems with the anti-dieseling solenoids on one of our mowers, and have bypassed it completely. Now I hope the Scag will behave herself, and the two John Deeres are each running better now that they are separated, but I am extremely glad I found this thread just in case. I used to live at Walter Hill, Tenn. before my Dad sold our farm and moved the whole shebang to Central Obamastan to pursue some fool dream of farming, yep, tractors, cattle herd and all. He was an IP in the C-130, and was stationed at Sewart AFB, but I was born a tar-heel, LOL.
B
billymagg
This is Bryan again. My tiger cat worked well one time after I bypassed the seat switch. I picked up a new seat switch but decided to leave it bypassed to see if it would act up. I mowed for 35 min and parked it outside my shed, I don't like to park hot mowers inside until they cool off. Two hours later I got on it to park it and it wouldn't crank. No battery voltage at all going to the start side of the starter solenoid. The battery is not the problem. When I picked up the seat switch at the dealer I was told it had already been replaced twice. I new then that it wasn't the problem. I have 12 volts on both sides of my bypass wire. I plugged the new seat switch to the harness and worked it by hand and it didn't make any difference. Since it is still under warranty I turned the dump valves and winched it on my trailer. I took it to the dealer on sat the 5th only to find out they were closed for the holiday, another 32 mile round trip. I finally took it to the shop while it was acting up and nobody there. I took it to another dealer in the next county and talked to a guy that really seemed concerned about my problem. He said the problem my be in the pto switch or the park brake switch. They couldn't look at it Saturday because their shop was closed, but while I was there the t cat made a fool out of me again, it started right up. I took it back home and finished my yard. I didn't dare shut it off until I got thru mowing. Now I have to decide which dealer to take it to, the one where I bought it or the one closest to home. I'm not made at the dealer but at the situation. I'm about to contact scag corp because I'm getting desperate. The mower had never quit while I was mowing, only when I stop to get off. This is the first time it wouldn't start after I parked it for a while. When it didn't start I video tape with my smart phone to show that I wasn't crazy. Oh well back to the old drawing board next week. THANKS BTJ
Wow Bryan, we may be cousins, I always thought those things just happened to me, and yes I have hauled my John Deere while it was running, we had some real problems with the anti-dieseling solenoids on one of our mowers, and have bypassed it completely. Now I hope the Scag will behave herself, and the two John Deeres are each running better now that they are separated, but I am extremely glad I found this thread just in case. I used to live at Walter Hill, Tenn. before my Dad sold our farm and moved the whole shebang to Central Obamastan to pursue some fool dream of farming, yep, tractors, cattle herd and all. He was an IP in the C-130, and was stationed at Sewart AFB, but I was born a tar-heel, LOL.
#15
M
monkfarm
??Mad Mackie, I should be able to just cut the wires to the seat switch and connect them together to bypass the seat switch, right>?? I am the one with the dead 27 hp kaw in the Scag Cougar, I am having so much problems with. . . It runs great for 20 -30 seconds, and then cuts out. I live in the sticks, and the local scag dealer takes a couple weeks in Red Wing MN to get any parts. I don't really have a backup, the John Deere has a tiller hooked up to it.
M
monkfarm
You are correct. The seat switch on Scags has a dual purpose, one being in the primary safety circuit and two in the engine cranking circuit, but all in conjunction with the safety interlock module. The cranking relay and the key switch are next in the troubleshooting process.
The seat switch is an easy item to replace, but the electrical connector must be removed first and it has a locking loop on it that must be carefully lifted before the connector can be disconnected.
I have bypassed the seat switch on my Ingersoll 4018 GT so the engine will keep running when I'm off the seat and being a hand controlled machine, I can move the tractor while standing beside it, however I am not an advocate of bypassing seat switches and I will not do it to any customers machine regardless of their insistence to do so!!!
??Mad Mackie, I should be able to just cut the wires to the seat switch and connect them together to bypass the seat switch, right>?? I am the one with the dead 27 hp kaw in the Scag Cougar, I am having so much problems with. . . It runs great for 20 -30 seconds, and then cuts out. I live in the sticks, and the local scag dealer takes a couple weeks in Red Wing MN to get any parts. I don't really have a backup, the John Deere has a tiller hooked up to it.
#17
M
Mad Mackie
M
Mad Mackie
I would have to see the wiring diagram for your machine, not familiar with the Cougar, I will look at the diagrams for the Cougar on the Scag site.
A failing cranking relay will only affect the cranking circuit and not affect running. I'm leaning toward the key switch on your machine, but I need to look at the Cougar wiring diagrams. When the cranking relay on my machine was intermittent, I could start the engine by jumping battery positive to the start solenoid.
A failing cranking relay will only affect the cranking circuit and not affect running. I'm leaning toward the key switch on your machine, but I need to look at the Cougar wiring diagrams. When the cranking relay on my machine was intermittent, I could start the engine by jumping battery positive to the start solenoid.
#18
M
monkfarm
M
monkfarm
Thanks so much for the reply, Mad Mackie!! Old finnlander? I am 3 /8s finn, my father knew finn before he knew english.
I have also posted in the Scag, and the Kawasaki, and the repair forums about this. "Scag Cougar. . ."
I do have a new ignition switch coming, should be here by friday at the latest. . . It does seem a little worn, but I did blow out the debris out of the connections, and used electronic cleaner on those, the connections on the key switch seem fine. I appreciate any help! We've had a lot of rain, and the grass getting out of control!
I am going to blow out the fuel lines, and see what that does. . .
I have also posted in the Scag, and the Kawasaki, and the repair forums about this. "Scag Cougar. . ."
I do have a new ignition switch coming, should be here by friday at the latest. . . It does seem a little worn, but I did blow out the debris out of the connections, and used electronic cleaner on those, the connections on the key switch seem fine. I appreciate any help! We've had a lot of rain, and the grass getting out of control!
I am going to blow out the fuel lines, and see what that does. . .
#19
M
Mad Mackie
M
Mad Mackie
As a kid I knew some Finns and Sweeds, nice folk, they knew how to eat!!! There was a large community of both in Providence, RI when I was a youngster there.
Is the Kawasaki on your machine a liquid cooled engine? I also see a fuel pump in the Kawi wiring diagram, but not in the parts manual, does it have an electric fuel pump?
I also see more electrical safety circuits as the Cougar has a blower and hopper system as standard equipment. The seat switch and the cranking relay are wired in the typical Scag manner. I don't recommend cutting out the seat switch connector, but you could makeup a jumper to temporarily bypass the seat switch. Not a good idea to remove safety circuits on these machine, if you are like me, I get forgetful at times and that can be a problem!!!! Maybe it's just old Scotsmen like Mackie that forget to put underware on under their kilts in winter!!!!! HaHa!!!
Mad Mackie in CT
Is the Kawasaki on your machine a liquid cooled engine? I also see a fuel pump in the Kawi wiring diagram, but not in the parts manual, does it have an electric fuel pump?
I also see more electrical safety circuits as the Cougar has a blower and hopper system as standard equipment. The seat switch and the cranking relay are wired in the typical Scag manner. I don't recommend cutting out the seat switch connector, but you could makeup a jumper to temporarily bypass the seat switch. Not a good idea to remove safety circuits on these machine, if you are like me, I get forgetful at times and that can be a problem!!!! Maybe it's just old Scotsmen like Mackie that forget to put underware on under their kilts in winter!!!!! HaHa!!!
Mad Mackie in CT
#20
M
monkfarm
M
monkfarm
Mackie is a very finnish name, so I made some assumptions, sorry. I'm 62, so I tend to forget stuff, also. I'm also a little sliver scotch on my mother's side.
It does have an electric fuel pump, and it is odd about the schematics. The electric fuel pump is only listed (in the SCR owners manual in the Kawasaki Electrical schematic, not in the fuel and hydraulic components diagram or the Kawasaki electrical system diagram. The electric fuel pump is not listed in any of the parts lists either, that I could find.
This is a liquid cooled engine, yes.
Yes, as soon as i have it running, I will put back the seat safety switch, but in the meantime, I just cut the wires, and wire nutted them together. . .
It does have an electric fuel pump, and it is odd about the schematics. The electric fuel pump is only listed (in the SCR owners manual in the Kawasaki Electrical schematic, not in the fuel and hydraulic components diagram or the Kawasaki electrical system diagram. The electric fuel pump is not listed in any of the parts lists either, that I could find.
This is a liquid cooled engine, yes.
Yes, as soon as i have it running, I will put back the seat safety switch, but in the meantime, I just cut the wires, and wire nutted them together. . .
#21
M
Mad Mackie
M
Mad Mackie
I see, the fuel pump in the Kawi parts manuals. This adds to your trouble shooting, as you need to know if it is getting power with the key on and if it is working. Also wired to the same connection in the engine harness is the carb fuel shutoff solenoid. I would check for power to these two items at the engine harness connector with the key on. Also I would check the ground connections where the battery ground cable connects to the engine, this is another problem area due to corrosion and vibration. Fairly decent wiring diagram for this machine. The relay in the middle of the diagram is the cranking relay, green wires. You see the green/black going to the interlock module, when all the safety circuits are in the correct position for starting, the interlock module will ground the relay and let it send power to the green/white to actuate the starting/cranking solenoid. Have you checked all the fuses??
#22
M
monkfarm
M
monkfarm
Yup, I checked all the fuses and installed new fuel pump, and checked the flow, previously, but I haven't checked the ground to engine, nor fuel shut-off solenoid. This will give me something to do.
Dean Antilla
Dean Antilla
#23
M
mechanic mark
M
mechanic mark
Bryan, From what you've described, I would with hands on look at neutral switches, loose connections, broken or burnt connections. Take a look at page 64 item 12, showing 3 switches, page 65 switch part number 481637 and pages 70 & 71 wiring schematics for your particular tiger cat dependent upon engine manufacturer. If you have a multimeter you can check switches for continuity, they are inexpensive at sears, look online.
http://www.scag.com/OpManuals/STC/2012STCOPMAN/STC_Book_03288.pdf
http://www.scag.com/OpManuals/STC/2012STCOPMAN/STC_Book_03288.pdf