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Kroller CV15S won't start without staring fluid

#1

S

slomo

model CV15S 2005 or 2006 era
spec 41590
serial 3005604141

38" Simplicity tractor style rider. Sitting for 10 years. Tank are carb are clean. Fires/runs only with starting fluid.

This has a block mounted fuel pump I suspect is bad. Fuel is pumped into a hard line over top of the engine into carb. Walbro carb has a restrictor on the fuel inlet. Small hole is all as in maybe 3 bread ties large. Tried bypassing the fuel pump via gravity. Tank is higher than carb. Not enough fuel volume to run it. Guessing it needs a little pressure to fill the bowl and run?

Again it runs with starting fluid. Will keep running if you pulse spray some juice into the carb. Engine is starving for fuel . Can someone verify this engine NEEDS the fuel pump please? Thanks in advance.


#2

StarTech

StarTech

Might just need a good carburetor cleaning.


#3

S

slomo

slomo said:
Tank are carb are clean
Click to expand...


#4

I

ILENGINE

If it has the fuel solenoid on the carb make sure it is retracting when the key is turned on. Sometimes they can get gummy and stick with fuel residue.


#5

S

slomo

Question is does this engine REQUIRE a fuel pump to run? As in the factory design? Gravity supply lacks volume into carb due to carb inlet restriction.


#6

S

slomo

ILENGINE said:
If it has the fuel solenoid on the carb make sure it is retracting when the key is turned on. Sometimes they can get gummy and stick with fuel residue.
Click to expand...
Verified it retracts with key on.


#7

S

slomo

Fuel pump 12 559 02-S is around 35 bucks. Figured the pump is trashed up a bit from sitting 10 years.


#8

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

Pull the outlet off of the fuel pump and see how much volume it pumps, or if it pumps,


#9

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

Yes it needs the pump. The Kohler pump is kinda expensive. I use one from stens. Testing the pump is not easy because of the hard line from pump to carb isn't easy to disconnect.


#10

S

slomo

Scrubcadet10 said:
Pull the outlet off of the fuel pump and see how much volume it pumps, or if it pumps,
Click to expand...
This was my next test. Check volume out of the pump. Figured the diaphragm was all messed up from sitting 10 years. Looks like a simple ford or chevy v-8 fuel pump. Same working principal anyway.


#11

S

slomo

Crazy, the Stens is more money than the OEM Kohler fuel pump.


#12

S

slomo

Hammermechanicman said:
Yes it needs the pump. The Kohler pump is kinda expensive. I use one from stens. Testing the pump is not easy because of the hard line from pump to carb isn't easy to disconnect.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the verification Hammer. I knew one of you guys had seen this one before. I appreciate it everyone.


#13

S

slomo

P.S.

Was thinking about drilling out that carb restriction on the inlet pipe. If you look down into it, you can see a small hole where the fuel travels through. About the size of a carb spray straw. Then hook the tank up for gravity flow. Basically by-passing that pump for more longevity.


#14

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

Fuelpump.png

Pulling the fuel line off is not easy. O e way to test the fuel pump if the system has a clear fuel filter. Pinch off the fuel line between the tank and filter for about 20 seconds then release. If the pump is working you will see fuel bubble onto the filter. Not the perfect test but a quick and dirty check.


#15

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

This answers a question i've had too... i always wondered what that casting was for on the Commands, next to the dipstick tube..... now i know.


#16

C

cupboy

Does this fuel solenoid look retracted? It seems to. I don't know where the pin is. Should it be near the red wire?solenoid.jpg


#17

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

The pin is inside the carb... you can't see it from the outside.
1652298107206.png


#18

C

cupboy

I don't remember that at all. Well, I guess there will be quite a bit more disassembly to do. There is this big plastic part over the carb. Disassembly looks rather complicated to say the least. I do not remember doing this last time. It's a shame my new lawn guy quit. My lawn would be mowed by now instead of being over a foot high. Getting close to two feet.carb_cover.jpg

I'm so tempted just to get out the sledgehammer and get that part of that way. It would be more fun, at least at first.


#19

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

you should be able to remove it with the flats on it, either a deep socket or a wrench, most likely 1/2" or 13mm.. may be 12mm
carb10.png


#20

S

slomo

Scrubcadet10 said:
This answers a question i've had too... i always wondered what that casting was for on the Commands, next to the dipstick tube..... now i know.
Click to expand...
Yup the ol' fuel pump.


#21

S

slomo

cupboy said:
Does this fuel solenoid look retracted? It seems to. I don't know where the pin is. Should it be near the red wire?View attachment 60471
Click to expand...
Pull the red wire apart. You should have 12 volts on that red wire with the key ON. You will have to remove (unscrew) the solenoid from the carb to see this plunger we are speaking of. It shuts the fuel off to the main jet when you turn the key off.


#22

S

slomo

cupboy said:
I don't remember that at all. Well, I guess there will be quite a bit more disassembly to do. There is this big plastic part over the carb. Disassembly looks rather complicated to say the least. I do not remember doing this last time. It's a shame my new lawn guy quit. My lawn would be mowed by now instead of being over a foot high. Getting close to two feet.View attachment 60480

I'm so tempted just to get out the sledgehammer and get that part of that way. It would be more fun, at least at first.
Click to expand...
This is a different engine than the one I'm working on now.


#23

S

slomo

Hammermechanicman said:
View attachment 60460

Pulling the fuel line off is not easy. O e way to test the fuel pump if the system has a clear fuel filter. Pinch off the fuel line between the tank and filter for about 20 seconds then release. If the pump is working you will see fuel bubble onto the filter. Not the perfect test but a quick and dirty check.
Click to expand...
More like cutting the fuel lines off the engine. This one has set for 10 years LOL. New fuel lines on the way.

Going to test the pump, pumping into a glass jar on the pump outlet. I know the fuel pump diaphragm is dead after sitting 10 years.


#24

S

slomo

This is exactly the fuel pump I'm working on. Thank you Hammer!!

1652302032337.png


#25

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

The pump is run off the cam. You can remove it and pump it by hand to see if it works. The diaphragm usually doesn't fail. It is one of the check valves that usually fails.
If if has been sitting for 10 years i would just go ahead and replace it. Squirt a little fuel into the inlet to wet the check valves so they seal or it may not pull fuel.


#26

C

cupboy

Scrubcadet10 said:
you should be able to remove it with the flats on it, either a deep socket or a wrench, most likely 1/2" or 13mm.. may be 12mm
carb10.png
Click to expand...
It's totally stuck on there so that's a no-go.


#27

S

slomo

cupboy said:
It's totally stuck on there so that's a no-go.
Click to expand...
Pliers are your friend. Solenoid is just above finger tight.


#28

G

Gord Baker

I expect you have checked for/changed the fuel filter. Remove Float bowl and see if fuel runs out when cranking engine.
Remove Float and needle and use carb spray to spray back into the NEEDLE SEAT.


#29

G

Gord Baker

cupboy said:
It's totally stuck on there so that's a no-go.
Click to expand...
If you hold your finger on that solenoid you should feel it click when you slowly turn the key towards but not to Start.
Warm the fitting briefly with a propane torch and then cold water. Do that a couple times then with a tight fitting wrench try to tighten then loosen the fitting. You could also connect the two wires to a charged 12V battery and see if you feel/hear a click.


#30

S

slomo

Gord Baker said:
I expect you have checked for/changed the fuel filter. Remove Float bowl and see if fuel runs out when cranking engine.
Remove Float and needle and use carb spray to spray back into the NEEDLE SEAT.
Click to expand...
I've removed the carb solenoid. Just a small trickle of fuel comes out of the carb bowl bottom. Not gravity flow at all. This engine has a fuel pump. This pump seems dead. Filter looks good.


#31

O

oneoldsap

slomo said:
model CV15S 2005 or 2006 era
spec 41590
serial 3005604141

38" Simplicity tractor style rider. Sitting for 10 years. Tank are carb are clean. Fires/runs only with starting fluid.

This has a block mounted fuel pump I suspect is bad. Fuel is pumped into a hard line over top of the engine into carb. Walbro carb has a restrictor on the fuel inlet. Small hole is all as in maybe 3 bread ties large. Tried bypassing the fuel pump via gravity. Tank is higher than carb. Not enough fuel volume to run it. Guessing it needs a little pressure to fill the bowl and run?

Again it runs with starting fluid. Will keep running if you pulse spray some juice into the carb. Engine is starving for fuel . Can someone verify this engine NEEDS the fuel pump please? Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...
What you have done so far , hasn't been enough , as you still have a fuel supply issue . You didn't mention a filter at all , should have one . Maybe the outlet in the tank is your problem . If you replaced the Carb with one of those cheap Chinese Carbs , That could be your problem . From experience , I know this , some (most) Chinese stuff is junk , brand new from the box !


#32

S

slomo

Fuel filter is fairly fresh. Paper inside is still a proper brown color. Fuel from the tank pours out of the filter as fast as gravity allows.

Still has the OEM Kroller carb. As I stated, this OEM carb has a tiny hole inside the carb inlet pipe. Size of a carb spray straw. Never seen one like this. Guess it throttles down the fuel pump volume/pressure in effort to not overwhelm the needle and seat.

Only time I buy Chi-sneeze carbs is when the OEM is no longer made.


#33

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

The fuel pump puts out very little pressure. I am not sure if there are different carbs for pump or Non-pump engines. As you have said it has set for 10 years i would assume the rubber check valves are hard and not working so the pump has failed. I would replace the fuel pump and go from there. A hole that small in the inlet will work just fine.


#34

S

slomo

New fuel pump on the way.

I've never seen an inlet restriction like this before on a carb. This mower has not been touched anything more than oil changes.

Worse comes to worse, I'm drilling out that inlet restriction and bypassing the fuel pump. Tank is higher than the carb anyway. Full gravity fuel flow should be fine for this thing.


#35

sgkent

sgkent

If the restriction is between the carb and fuel pump is is likely there to keep the fuel pump from overwhelming the carb.


#36

S

slomo

sgkent said:
If the restriction is between the carb and fuel pump is is likely there to keep the fuel pump from overwhelming the carb.
Click to expand...
Restriction is inside the carb fuel inlet tube.


#37

winmod21

winmod21

slomo said:
New fuel pump on the way.

I've never seen an inlet restriction like this before on a carb. This mower has not been touched anything more than oil changes.

Worse comes to worse, I'm drilling out that inlet restriction and bypassing the fuel pump. Tank is higher than the carb anyway. Full gravity fuel flow should be fine for this thing.
Click to expand...
Hi slomo,
Did the new fuel pump do the trick? I just enjoyed reading thru this thread, and was thinking I should probably have a new fuel pump on hand as spare. I found this part # online [ Kohler Fuel Pump - Part No. 12 559 02-S - AKA Part No. 1255902S - Supersedes 12 559 01-S ]. If you can or have time to find the part # of the one that you ordered & installed, was it the same?

I haven't checked the fuel flow yet on our CV15S (as you suggested on my 'GT225 ~ no restart' thread), but will tomorrow, after picking-up some extra fuel line & a shutoff valve. Also haven't taken the carb off yet, but we did receive our ultrasonic cleaner yesterday-- so will probably try it out next week after mowing.

Nor have I replaced the ignition mod yet, but planning on also doing that.

Two questions;
1) When you hook that fuel line up to check the flow-- down stream of the fuel pump, do you suggest removing that little tiny section of rubber fuel line at the fuel pump outlet, and hooking-up the long section of test fuel line (that you run into a glass jar) there, to the metal nipple on top of the fuel pump?

2) Anything special I should know about, or possible mistakes to avoid, when removing the fender deck & tank? As my service manual doesn't have the procedure in it. I dwn'loaded and printed most of it a few years ago, but not the 'Technical Manual'.

If you see this and have the time...thanks very much for any & all suggestions !;-)


#38

S

slomo

winmod21 said:
Hi slomo,
Did the new fuel pump do the trick? I just enjoyed reading thru this thread, and was thinking I should probably have a new fuel pump on hand as spare. I found this part # online [ Kohler Fuel Pump - Part No. 12 559 02-S - AKA Part No. 1255902S - Supersedes 12 559 01-S ]. If you can or have time to find the part # of the one that you ordered & installed, was it the same?

I haven't checked the fuel flow yet on our CV15S (as you suggested on my 'GT225 ~ no restart' thread), but will tomorrow, after picking-up some extra fuel line & a shutoff valve. Also haven't taken the carb off yet, but we did receive our ultrasonic cleaner yesterday-- so will probably try it out next week after mowing.

Nor have I replaced the ignition mod yet, but planning on also doing that.

Two questions;
1) When you hook that fuel line up to check the flow-- down stream of the fuel pump, do you suggest removing that little tiny section of rubber fuel line at the fuel pump outlet, and hooking-up the long section of test fuel line (that you run into a glass jar) there, to the metal nipple on top of the fuel pump?

2) Anything special I should know about, or possible mistakes to avoid, when removing the fender deck & tank? As my service manual doesn't have the procedure in it. I dwn'loaded and printed most of it a few years ago, but not the 'Technical Manual'.

If you see this and have the time...thanks very much for any & all suggestions !;-)
Click to expand...
I got a cheapo Chinese fuel pump off Ebay. Was like 15 bucks. This was not my machine BTW. Helping a friend. Anywho, this sat for a couple years. Fuel lines were rotted ect... I didn't check the original pump for flow so I can't help there. The Ebay one works so far LOL. I just figured the original pump was dead from sitting dry for years.

Your ? 1, hook a test hose to the outlet of the silver hardline prior to the carb. Run into a glass jar. Bump the key a few times and watch for pulsating flow.

Your ? 2, I was working on a Simplicity tractor style with a 38" deck. That one had a metal hoop that went over the tank. Don't know what you are working on sorry.


#39

winmod21

winmod21

slomo said:
I got a cheapo Chinese fuel pump off Ebay. Was like 15 bucks. This was not my machine BTW. Helping a friend. Anywho, this sat for a couple years. Fuel lines were rotted ect... I didn't check the original pump for flow so I can't help there. The Ebay one works so far LOL. I just figured the original pump was dead from sitting dry for years.

Your ? 1, hook a test hose to the outlet of the silver hardline prior to the carb. Run into a glass jar. Bump the key a few times and watch for pulsating flow.

Your ? 2, I was working on a Simplicity tractor style with a 38" deck. That one had a metal hoop that went over the tank. Don't know what you are working on sorry.
Click to expand...
Really appreciate you replying, and your answers; they'll help. ;)

I found a Kohler # 12-559-02-S OEM fuel pump—on the Brazilian River site w/free Prime ship— that says it's "Brand New Genuine [Stens] Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) part for Kohler... We are an Authorized Kohler Dealer", although at a little over twice your price on eBay, but might get it anyway just to have a spare. Ours is a GT225 - photo of in my avatar. Have a great & happy weekend !;-)


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