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How long does it take you guys to do head gaskets on a Kohler command twin engine. I do both sides when I do one.

hlw49 said:

How long does it take you guys to do head gaskets on a Kohler command twin engine. I do both sides when I do one.

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It depends on how accessible the engine is, some ztrs have them boxed in pretty tight.

And some of the old shaft drive Cubs pretty well a nightmare to change as you got to pull the engine to done about anything engine related.

When ask how it will take on most jobs I just reply "It takes as long as it takes". Never when you are going to run into problems. I had one recently that I had to Helicoil a head bolt.

Depending on access and also will it require R & R Engine 2-4 hours is a good base line

Kohler warranty pays 1.8 Hours for both gaskets. Don't just replace the gaskets plane the heads as well. This is on verticle engines. Just did one that had to take the engine mounting bolts out and lift the engine up to get the muffler off. Clean up and all that 6 to 8 hours

And they wonder why I don't do warranty work.....Other than my own warranties. Just not worth the headaches of trying to get paid. They always are trying every trick in the book and some that are not to get out of even paying their own suggest rates.

Customers don't like when I demand payment up front and then if I get paid they get a refund.

Hydro Gear wants to send in the defective items so can determine if they are going to pay off.

No wonder shops in my area only warranty items they sold and not anything outside their sales.

I was approached to be a warranty shop. After seeing what their process was and what they paid flat rape for repairs I told them no thank you. I would rather not be a nonprofit shop.

I know all they want to allow for a simple clean repair job. They take account anything extra that has to be done. You engines that looks like they been ran thru a mud bog with frozen fasteners that has to drilled and helicoiled. Or mounted in a machine that you got to take half apart to even get to area that needs repairs.

Sorta a Briggs Twin here that needed a sump gasket replaced. Briggs allows 45 min to get it done but it take half a day to get the engine off, repaired, and back on the Super Z. What worst is the new Briggs failed within two passes of the customer's lawn so it was be done all over again. The second time around I use much better quality after market sump gasket. Four months and no problems reported.

Boss was approached by Sears to do their warranty work. He was all hiped up do it I took a look at what they paid for warranty work and told him I would not work for that. We don't do Sear warranty work. They were going to pay about 1/3 of the time it would actually take or even less.

hlw49 said:

Boss was approached by Sears to do their warranty work. He was all hiped up do it I took a look at what they paid for warranty work and told him I would not work for that. We don't do Sear warranty work. They were going to pay about 1/3 of the time it would actually take or even less.

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They approached me also Seems like they were going to supply all the warranty parts with no income from the parts installed, and pay like $28/hr when my shop rate was like $50.

I beginning to see that my decision was good. As I figure these companies are all wanting us to do their work for nearly free. These companies needs to pay an honest rate for making them look good to the customers.

A few years ago as a customer I was told by Kohler that two ignition coils were bad and take them to a local dealer and have them made up. Well none of the dealers would even do it. Kohler at the time was paying retail for the parts that were sent for replacement. I had a discuss with my customer at the time about it stating the refusals I got from the local Kohler dealers. We worked out a deal where I did labor for free and the customer paid cost for the coils. Now he comes to my shop for all his repairs and pays what ever I charge. I still treat him just as fair as the rest of customers.

IL you know about type of twin coil failure I referring to where the bad coil is shutting the good coil but coil is still operating. Steering diode problems. Kohler said to replace both coils.

StarTech said:

I beginning to see that my decision was good. As I figure these companies are all wanting us to do their work for nearly free. These companies needs to pay an honest rate for making them look good to the customers.

A few years ago as a customer I was told by Kohler that two ignition coils were bad and take them to a local dealer and have them made up. Well none of the dealers would even do it. Kohler at the time was paying retail for the parts that were sent for replacement. I had a discuss with my customer at the time about it stating the refusals I got from the local Kohler dealers. We worked out a deal where I did labor for free and the customer paid cost for the coils. Now he comes to my shop for all his repairs and pays what ever I charge. I still treat him just as fair as the rest of customers.

IL you know about type of twin coil failure I referring to where the bad coil is shutting the good coil but coil is still operating. Steering diode problems. Kohler said to replace both coils.

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I basically make it a point to just replace both coils when I do coil replacements. Too many cases of replace one coil and the other coil fails within a short period, and in some cases as soon as the engine is put back into service. Had a Kohler a few years back that you had to R & R the engine tor replace the coils, so replaced on coil and reinstalled engine and the other coil failed on startup. Some of the new coils on Kohler are high voltage kill were the old coils were low voltage. So a new coil will fry the old coil on first start. Kawasaki tend to get moisure sensitive due to cracking in the epoxy around the kill tab connection. So won't fire after being exposed to rain, fog or high humidity. Engine will come in with running on one cylinder and if you do the ground one plug to check to see if it will run on the other will either die or won't start and run on one cylinder and it doesn't matter which one you ground.

hlw49 said:

Kohler warranty pays 1.8 Hours for both gaskets. Don't just replace the gaskets plane the heads as well. This is on verticle engines. Just did one that had to take the engine mounting bolts out and lift the engine up to get the muffler off. Clean up and all that 6 to 8 hours

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For what it's worth. The 1.8 hours is just for replacing the head gaskets. If you have to R&R the engine, add 1.5 hours so 3.3 total in that case.

If it's on a Toro Dingo, Kohler will pay the 1.8 for the head gasket replacements plus 8 hours R&R of the engine. If you have a difficult application and explain that on the warranty claim, Kohler will pay more than flat rate. You just have to ask for it and give a reasonable explanation. You may not get exactly what you asked for, but you will get more than flat rate if you can show a difficult application that took more time than the flat rate manual calls for. Don't be afraid to ask.

They won't pay for your education though. I had a dealer send in a warranty claim once asking for more labor time because his so-called technician was new and didn't really know what he was doing.

I had a local JD dealer to try that on a customer when I was dealing with my mother's dementia. They charged the customer 8 hrs for a 30 minutes hydro fan replacement. I went to bat for the customer after he came to my shop about. I knew the local manager that just lived down the street from me. I got him to refund the customer 6 hrs of the labor because they has a new doing the work.

I had that manager to come by my shop and I showed how easy the fan was to replace. Not cunting time to get the tools out it all of 15 minutes. The manager jaw hit the shop floor.

Now most fans are not that easy but this one was.

StarTech said:

I had a local JD dealer to try that on a customer when I was dealing with my mother's dementia. They charged the customer 8 hrs for a 30 minutes hydro fan replacement. I went to bat for the customer after he came to my shop about. I knew the local manager that just lived down the street from me. I got him to refund the customer 6 hrs of the labor because they has a new doing the work.

I had that manager to come by my shop and I showed how easy the fan was to replace. Not cunting time to get the tools out it all of 15 minutes. The manager jaw hit the shop floor.

Now most fans are not that easy but this one was.

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Yes, always replace ignition coils in pairs, just like shock absorbers on cars.

Any dealer that would charge eight hours labor on a hydro fan replacement not only needs to be held accountable, but also needs some bad reviews and a good lecture in common sense and unethical business practices.

I have been asked by several companies to do warranty work and I turned them all down.
I think Sears wanted flat rate or $48 per repair but they provided any parts you needed. You "could" ever up with a lot of parts (new and used) in stock but still not worth it when I have people lined up and waiting for me to fix their stuff.
Kohler command twin head gasket depends on what is on but on easy one let's say craftsman rider where you lift hood of in 7 seconds and it's all their there....I can do them in 1hr 10mins - 1hr 15mins and could prob do them in an hr flat if I was in a hurry but rushing isn't smart.

ILENGINE said:

They approached me also Seems like they were going to supply all the warranty parts with no income from the parts installed, and pay like $28/hr when my shop rate was like $50.

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I have an email from Sears somewhere. They would provide all parts and wanted be to do the handheld items trimmers, blowers, chainsaws for flat rate of $48 each.
Not terrible for someone on a hobby basis but I have people lined up waiting for me to fix their stuff as do most all other shops.
More importantly in this discussion.....
WHAT is your average profit on each repair you do?
It seems with Sears it would have been $48.

TobyU said:

I have an email from Sears somewhere. They would provide all parts and wanted be to do the handheld items trimmers, blowers, chainsaws for flat rate of $48 each.
Not terrible for someone on a hobby basis but I have people lined up waiting for me to fix their stuff as do most all other shops.
More importantly in this discussion.....
WHAT is your average profit on each repair you do?
It seems with Sears it would have been $48.

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Was that $48 plus mileage for the on site mobile repairs, and did that include a second $48 for returning to install the parts. Or did you have to pay vehicle maintenance and gas out of that $48.

Good questions IL. Some think would think $48 is all profit but it is only gross profit before expenses. I once had a customer when I was working for the other guy to say to me don't make all of that $110/hr labor? I just looked at him and said that I got $12.50/hr before taxes which was more like $10/hr after taxes and I still had to provide my own meals, clothes, and other items.

And when you are self employed you really got to sit down and go through the figures to see what the bottom line is going to be. And don't forget in the US the 15.3% self employment taxes on the net profit.

I think about this I grossed a little over $23,000 and then with all expenses this last I netted $1395 and the IRS wants another $197 out that measly sum. Of this last year me and the IRS were still fighting over getting my IRS account straighten out so had a big effect on my sales. But the year before I netted $5647 and the IRS got $859 more. And this will be at operating at a lost as refuse to send the IRS another penny until they get my account straighten out. It is now screwed up for nearly five years,

So the more you net the more you pay at the end of the year until get to the stage that they want quarterly payments. And as a self employed you don't to use the standard deduction either so they are taxing you on every penny of net profit.

And I did have a bad year otherwise with the truck transmission going out (completely self destructed internally, no rebuilding it) and insurance going up nearly 15%. In the last ten year the insurance has doubled.

But of the general public think we are making a killing overall. Personally I would rather work for the other man and let him deal with all the financial headaches.

Years ago I was offered a job as an independent contractor installing and settling up internet at hotel properties. Would pay over $150k a year. After self employment tax, fica, health insurance etc and being on the road 5 days a week living out of a suitcase and only home on weekends the hourly rate is like $10 an hour. I told them double it and I would think about it LOL.

I knew a fellow about 30 years ago who quit working at a mower shop to start a business doing mobile mower warranty work for Sears. He lasted less than a year.

StarTech said:

Good questions IL. Some think would think $48 is all profit but it is only gross profit before expenses. I once had a customer when I was working for the other guy to say to me don't make all of that $110/hr labor? I just looked at him and said that I got $12.50/hr before taxes which was more like $10/hr after taxes and I still had to provide my own meals, clothes, and other items.

And when you are self employed you really got to sit down and go through the figures to see what the bottom line is going to be. And don't forget in the US the 15.3% self employment taxes on the net profit.

I think about this I grossed a little over $23,000 and then with all expenses this last I netted $1395 and the IRS wants another $197 out that measly sum. Of this last year me and the IRS were still fighting over getting my IRS account straighten out so had a big effect on my sales. But the year before I netted $5647 and the IRS got $859 more. And this will be at operating at a lost as refuse to send the IRS another penny until they get my account straighten out. It is now screwed up for nearly five years,

So the more you net the more you pay at the end of the year until get to the stage that they want quarterly payments. And as a self employed you don't to use the standard deduction either so they are taxing you on every penny of net profit.

And I did have a bad year otherwise with the truck transmission going out (completely self destructed internally, no rebuilding it) and insurance going up nearly 15%. In the last ten year the insurance has doubled.

But of the general public think we are making a killing overall. Personally I would rather work for the other man and let him deal with all the financial headaches.

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Been there done that.

ILENGINE said:

Was that $48 plus mileage for the on site mobile repairs, and did that include a second $48 for returning to install the parts. Or did you have to pay vehicle maintenance and gas out of that $48.

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No. This was not mobile or on-site at all.
They contacted me at least three times but I think the following two I simply turn them down so I didn't get there sales.
The one that I have is probably from the first contact and was only about carr in handheld items such as strain trimmers, blowers, chainsaws.
I assume they were going to have the customer drop them off to me as an authorized service center but it's possible they would have brought them to me also since they had various resources to do that when the store was still open up the.
It would have been simple for me to pick them up too because it's about 1.5 straight up the road from me but still that would have been time that I would not have been willing to do.
So no, there were no other expenses coming out of that.
That's why I first mentioned it wasn't a terrible deal especially for someone who might be doing it as a hobby etc because they would be clearing $48 on each item they fixed.
You could be nitpicky about it and claim that you are going to have some expense in paper towels, shop towels carb cleaner spray etc or even you know the wear and tear on your screwdrivers and hammers etc.
But that's really quite insignificant so basically you would be clearing $48 on each one.
It probably could have been negotiated a few dollars higher but there was no reason to mess with it for me as I have an entire line and waiting list of customers.
I also don't personally like doing those items while some people who like to tinker do like them or even prefer them.
I look at things strategically and cost-effectively and I have found that even in the most efficient and smartest of text hands, these items are more time consuming to get to the desired effect than other items especially push mowers and items with the similar three and a half to 7.25 horsepower engines on them.
The time involved, almost always is less on a push mower let's say for a no start or even an annual service than it is to get one of these handheld items running or fixed AND then there's the fact that it's common and even expected for the repair Bill to be higher for a mower since it's a larger, more expensive, more complicated piece of equipment.
I find the smaller handheld ones like that to be a lose-lose situation compared to the others.
I'm probably not alone in this and that's why they have become quite disposable.
Unless you have a steel, echo, red max, shindaiwa, for a couple of other high-end basically commercial grade ones of these, you're better off in the end and your wallet is Fuller to simply clean it up nicely and sell it for parts or repair on marketplace and take the first 25 to 35 bucks you get for it and put that towards the price of a new one.
This way you will have a brand new piece of machinery that operates properly at least for now, or you return it, and you'll have more money in your pocket than getting the old one repaired.

Let's see if you are paying your taxes. $48 - 7.34 SET = $40.66. Then if you use $0.63 of fuel mix, half a can of carburetor cleaner (say it is $4 plus tax for a can). Now are down to around $38. Then if you use paper billing the cost of paper and ink/toner. Then you got the internet and phone expenses. And this requires some electric usage too. So supposed $48 in your pocket becomes actually around $30 or less. And this don't allow for an especially difficult one to repair like replacing the short block on that strain trimmer. BTW what is a strain trimmer? I have work on string trimmers but not a strain trimmer.

StarTech said:

Let's see if you are paying your taxes. $48 - 7.34 SET = $40.66. Then if you use $0.63 of fuel mix, half a can of carburetor cleaner (say it is $4 plus tax for a can). Now are down to around $38. Then if you use paper billing the cost of paper and ink/toner. Then you got the internet and phone expenses. And this requires some electric usage too. So supposed $48 in your pocket becomes actually around $30 or less. And this don't allow for an especially difficult one to repair like replacing the short block on that strain trimmer. BTW what is a strain trimmer? I have work on string trimmers but not a strain trimmer.

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Well, I was hoping we wouldn't get into the pedantics and the nitpicky of everything down too 33 cents of carb cleaner spray and the shop cloth and even the wear and tear on your work pants or your work shoes. Lol

Remember, I never suggested doing it and I turn Sears down three different times.
I'm just going with the same basic numbers without doing the nitpicky math that it was going to be $48 clear money or let's say labor at the time versus doing a repair let's say for someone's riding lawn mower might be $95 labor for you at the time.
Neither one of those amounts is 100% profit but it's easy to make a comparison this way.

I'm in total agreement with you on the string trimmer and stuff like that because most of those half-shaft residential models require right around 23 bolts, nuts, fasteners to be removed including the flywheel often simply to fix the pull rope assembly or the spring!!
It's an absolutely terrible design and this is why I said it's not worth a shops time to do these repairs even if they doubled the price because you have your own real or what I call 100% customers standing in line for you to fix their things.
Screw Sears and any middleman companies trying to make money or anyone just paying for warranty work because they want to keep their customers happy we're happier so they can sell them products in the future.
I'm just not into helping other companies out like that..

The only way it would be decent would be for some retired guy who wants to piddle and happens to like the smaller things because they're light and you don't have to pick them up and move them around or sit them on a table like most people do with push mowers.
It would be a fairly steady stream with a good profit margin.
I still don't recommend it though because as I've always said, those types of equipment are little, time-consuming you know whats and not worth anyone's time.

I've had discussions on here several times with owners who just throw good money after bad or good time after bad and to fixing one of these little things when they would have been a lot better off too wipe it down and clean it up, put some pictures on marketplace, list it for 35 bucks and take the first 25.
But that towards buying a new one and you'll have a brand new piece of equipment that works properly at least for a while, and have more money in your pocket.

StarTech said:

Good questions IL. Some think would think $48 is all profit but it is only gross profit before expenses. I once had a customer when I was working for the other guy to say to me don't make all of that $110/hr labor? I just looked at him and said that I got $12.50/hr before taxes which was more like $10/hr after taxes and I still had to provide my own meals, clothes, and other items.

And when you are self employed you really got to sit down and go through the figures to see what the bottom line is going to be. And don't forget in the US the 15.3% self employment taxes on the net profit.

I think about this I grossed a little over $23,000 and then with all expenses this last I netted $1395 and the IRS wants another $197 out that measly sum. Of this last year me and the IRS were still fighting over getting my IRS account straighten out so had a big effect on my sales. But the year before I netted $5647 and the IRS got $859 more. And this will be at operating at a lost as refuse to send the IRS another penny until they get my account straighten out. It is now screwed up for nearly five years,

So the more you net the more you pay at the end of the year until get to the stage that they want quarterly payments. And as a self employed you don't to use the standard deduction either so they are taxing you on every penny of net profit.

And I did have a bad year otherwise with the truck transmission going out (completely self destructed internally, no rebuilding it) and insurance going up nearly 15%. In the last ten year the insurance has doubled.

But of the general public think we are making a killing overall. Personally I would rather work for the other man and let him deal with all the financial headaches.

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StarTech said:

I know all they want to allow for a simple clean repair job. They take account anything extra that has to be done. You engines that looks like they been ran thru a mud bog with frozen fasteners that has to drilled and helicoiled. Or mounted in a machine that you got to take half apart to even get to area that needs repairs.

Sorta a Briggs Twin here that needed a sump gasket replaced. Briggs allows 45 min to get it done but it take half a day to get the engine off, repaired, and back on the Super Z. What worst is the new Briggs failed within two passes of the customer's lawn so it was be done all over again. The second time around I use much better quality after market sump gasket. Four months and no problems reported.

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What kind of superior after market gasket is better then the OEM gasket? I personally have never had an OEM gasket fail.

Sooner or later people will learn that those online sites for selling used equipment are generally a ripoff as no warranty is usually given. Basically it is Buyer Beware.

But when you figure net profit you must include costs. I wish the $65 /hr I charge was clear profit too but it is not ever. Even if it was there is still $9.95 per hr self employment tax the must be paid; unless, you are doing your work under the table and not reporting it to the IRS.

Here is my Income/Expenses report for last year.


Even with the IRS allowed deductions I still owed $197.06 to the IRS. The self employment tax is listed is what I paid out for the 2022 tax year.
These figures don't even include the 9.5% sales tax ($2122.34) that I sent to TN sales tax group as my program does keep them separate.

hlw49 said:

What kind of superior after market gasket is better then the OEM gasket? I personally have never had an OEM gasket fail.

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I think I remember seeing dune Briggs 31xxxxx aftermarket gaskets with a fire ring around the combustion chamber.
Regardless, the Briggs one is so terrible that it would be hard to do worse.
Kohler greatly improved their command twin gaskets after a recall.

hlw49 said:

What kind of superior after market gasket is better then the OEM gasket? I personally have never had an OEM gasket fail.

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I used think that too but two in a row 49M crankcase/sump gaskets with a week I had to try the aftermarket ones I got now. THose from Briggs looks like vanilla file folder paper and the aftermarket one were dark red and lot stiffer at the thickness. I even torque them to only 25 ft/lbs instead of the Briggs 27 ft/lbs spec.

I have replaced a bunch on the briggs sump gaskets. The stens gaskets are thicker than the OEM. Haven't had one of those fail yet.

Hammermechanicman said:

I have replaced a bunch on the briggs sump gaskets. The stens gaskets are thicker than the OEM. Haven't had one of those fail yet.

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The only ones I had been seeing here is the v-twins failing but I do replace several singles every year too. You the old ACR failure ones.

Good thing I got Heli-coils here for these engines. I have several screws to fail before reaching full screw torque. IE pull through.