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Kohler Courage 20---what beside main crank seal will quickly dump all oil from under engine?
#1
C
Carver69
C
Carver69
Purchased a Toro Bronco new 15 years (or more) ago and it has had a very babied life at a lakehouse that only gets used about 3 times a year. I had a need to loan it to son-in-law that burned up ( it literally caught on fire ) his new JD Zero turn.
Never had any issues at all with the Toro / Kohler other than replacing a couple of tires that dry-rotted.
I Picked it up and made a trailer ride back to home. Did a full tune-up and oil change. When I cranked it all the oil immediately sprayed out from beneath the motor in just a couple of seconds. I felt pretty sure it was a main seal on the crank because of he volume and speed with which it occurred and just ordered a new OEM seal. With the mower lifted overhead and pulleys removed The part of the motor around the crank is dry and dusty.
After a lot of digging online I stripped the top end of the motor and it does not even suffer the common oil leaks and all side of the engine are still dry and dusty.
When the oil was being discharged it came out like it was under high pressure directly down on the trailer ..
That was a lot of background for a relatively simple question. Does the Kohler Courage 20 have any type of opening beside the main seal on the very bottom of the engine that could of dumped all the oil in just a few seconds. If not, I am suspecting a catastrophic block crack. I can pull the engine and inspect the bottom but that simple act will cost me considerably and I will probably just cut my losses and try to find a used mower.
Never had any issues at all with the Toro / Kohler other than replacing a couple of tires that dry-rotted.
I Picked it up and made a trailer ride back to home. Did a full tune-up and oil change. When I cranked it all the oil immediately sprayed out from beneath the motor in just a couple of seconds. I felt pretty sure it was a main seal on the crank because of he volume and speed with which it occurred and just ordered a new OEM seal. With the mower lifted overhead and pulleys removed The part of the motor around the crank is dry and dusty.
After a lot of digging online I stripped the top end of the motor and it does not even suffer the common oil leaks and all side of the engine are still dry and dusty.
When the oil was being discharged it came out like it was under high pressure directly down on the trailer ..
That was a lot of background for a relatively simple question. Does the Kohler Courage 20 have any type of opening beside the main seal on the very bottom of the engine that could of dumped all the oil in just a few seconds. If not, I am suspecting a catastrophic block crack. I can pull the engine and inspect the bottom but that simple act will cost me considerably and I will probably just cut my losses and try to find a used mower.
#2
7394
7394
#3
ILENGINE
ILENGINE
Some of the early Courage single with the cover bolts coming loose also had issues with the counterbalance retaining strap, that keeps the weight running straight will break and the counterbalance weight cracks or flat out ventilates the rear of the lower crankcase.
#4
StarTech
StarTech
Personally I have never a major failure of the Courage single though I have heard of them thru the grape vine. It is called a bucket engine for a reason as the crankcase is like a bucket.
Most times when lower crank seals go bad it is the lip next to crankshaft. While just sitting there oil runs down the crankshaft onto the motion drive pulley. Then when you crank up the engine oil is slung off that pulley. The engine's crankcase will be dry as oil does run uphill or spray uphill unless forced to do so.
Also when new seals are installed it is possible to roll the lip and have the gather spring to become dislodge causing leaks. Now on rarer occasions the seals can leak between itself and crankcase. But you are dealing with a seal that is 15 yrs old so I think as harden over the years on top of wearing normally. It is the reason I keep these seals in stock here.
Also you hadn't already disassemble the engine you could have used UV dye to find the leak down before doing an invasive disassembly. It can save a lot of unnecessary work.
Most times when lower crank seals go bad it is the lip next to crankshaft. While just sitting there oil runs down the crankshaft onto the motion drive pulley. Then when you crank up the engine oil is slung off that pulley. The engine's crankcase will be dry as oil does run uphill or spray uphill unless forced to do so.
Also when new seals are installed it is possible to roll the lip and have the gather spring to become dislodge causing leaks. Now on rarer occasions the seals can leak between itself and crankcase. But you are dealing with a seal that is 15 yrs old so I think as harden over the years on top of wearing normally. It is the reason I keep these seals in stock here.
Also you hadn't already disassemble the engine you could have used UV dye to find the leak down before doing an invasive disassembly. It can save a lot of unnecessary work.
#5
ILENGINE
ILENGINE
I have seen one were the top front bolts were coming loose but were caught prior to engine damage. Two where the bolts came loose to the point that failure ended with the Kohler crack. One was to the point were the heads of the bolts were ground down by the rotating flywheel. And had one were the counterbalance weight retaining strap broke which allowed the weight to ventilate the bottom rear of the crankcase.Personally I have never a major failure of the Courage single though I have heard of them thru the grape vine. It is called a bucket engine for a reason as the crankcase is like a bucket.
#6
B
Bertrrr
B
Bertrrr
I ran into this with the same engine, I think there is a design flaw on this model , mine threw the rod and busted the crankcase.
#7
StarTech
StarTech
Yes there can be always a major failure with anything. What I was getting at is to look for simpler things first before condemning an engine.
It like that Briggs I had earlier where a simple spark plug cause me a lot extra work as there were other root causes that had already been fixed. I got lock into it must had been something I had done that I overlook a bad plug. It strange that I now had two more with the same crazy problem. Must be a batch of bad plugs.
It like that Briggs I had earlier where a simple spark plug cause me a lot extra work as there were other root causes that had already been fixed. I got lock into it must had been something I had done that I overlook a bad plug. It strange that I now had two more with the same crazy problem. Must be a batch of bad plugs.
#8
C
Carver69
I feel physically pretty good this morning ( health issues compounded by age ) and am going to get the engine off the chassis to peer at the bottom. I broke all the mounting bolts loose yesterday while I had everything accessible and only need to do some "light" work to get it off.
The mower could pass for brand new other than no functional engine. I have already researched a direct replacement engine and have found nothing. If anyone knows of a direct replacement I would sure appreciate the advice !
I'll share what I discover if for nothing more than entertainment of others suffering from ownership of a Kohler Courage engine.
C
Carver69
Thank You ! Not knowing the inner workings of these I have been at a total loss, but that really sounds logical for the events I witnessed.Some of the early Courage single with the cover bolts coming loose also had issues with the counterbalance retaining strap, that keeps the weight running straight will break and the counterbalance weight cracks or flat out ventilates the rear of the lower crankcase.
I feel physically pretty good this morning ( health issues compounded by age ) and am going to get the engine off the chassis to peer at the bottom. I broke all the mounting bolts loose yesterday while I had everything accessible and only need to do some "light" work to get it off.
The mower could pass for brand new other than no functional engine. I have already researched a direct replacement engine and have found nothing. If anyone knows of a direct replacement I would sure appreciate the advice !
I'll share what I discover if for nothing more than entertainment of others suffering from ownership of a Kohler Courage engine.
#9
C
Carver69
Forgive me if I respond to you posts slowly, I can't physically lift or move it indoors and cannot go out in direct sunlight or even exert my self at all so I may be a day or two between even simple tasks.
Thanks Again, Phill
C
Carver69
Thanks Star Tech. I have now seen the entire engine in daylight for the first time and am still a bit bewildered but less than before. The bottom of the engine is dry and clean with no damage or evidence of anything troubled. The top plate shows history of what appears to be a minor slow leak near the rear but nothing that would dump oil so quickly. The oil continued to leak onto the trailer until there was none on the dipstick. I am hoping now that what I witnessed was the pulley dumping a load of slowly leaked oil as you mentioned earlier. The upper gasket appears to be in place and all bolts are tight. since all the oil that came out was new I am assuming I am missing something I cannot see with the naked eye. This main event happened three weeks ago and it has just been sitting on the trailer under a tarp. Can you point me towards the UV dye you referenced. Since the case does not appear to be lost I am hoping I can actually repair it. I have a couple of UV lights if they are in the proper wavelength.Personally I have never a major failure of the Courage single though I have heard of them thru the grape vine. It is called a bucket engine for a reason as the crankcase is like a bucket.
Most times when lower crank seals go bad it is the lip next to crankshaft. While just sitting there oil runs down the crankshaft onto the motion drive pulley. Then when you crank up the engine oil is slung off that pulley. The engine's crankcase will be dry as oil does run uphill or spray uphill unless forced to do so.
Also when new seals are installed it is possible to roll the lip and have the gather spring to become dislodge causing leaks. Now on rarer occasions the seals can leak between itself and crankcase. But you are dealing with a seal that is 15 yrs old so I think as harden over the years on top of wearing normally. It is the reason I keep these seals in stock here.
Also you hadn't already disassemble the engine you could have used UV dye to find the leak down before doing an invasive disassembly. It can save a lot of unnecessary work.
Forgive me if I respond to you posts slowly, I can't physically lift or move it indoors and cannot go out in direct sunlight or even exert my self at all so I may be a day or two between even simple tasks.
Thanks Again, Phill
#10
StarTech
StarTech
Don't worry about the response times. We all have limitations that love to get in the way. I personally just getting back at it myself from a major Afib attack and now the right hand giving troubles. If it isn't for one thing it is another lately.
Having to learn how to work around it now until the doctor will listen to me about it. Currently he thinks I am some dope just wanting a pain pill fix. And yes I am also suppose to stay out the direct sun too but won't happen. Having back problems requires me to use an engine lift crane for those near 100 lb engines that I use just around with ease.
Only responding quickly here as I just got back from a long run to the food store and was checking my messages.
Yes having the right wavelength is important. The UV dye I use requires 365 nM to work best. Plus the pen light is using a 3.7v boost battery vs the 1.5v one so it produces a brighter light response.
Having to learn how to work around it now until the doctor will listen to me about it. Currently he thinks I am some dope just wanting a pain pill fix. And yes I am also suppose to stay out the direct sun too but won't happen. Having back problems requires me to use an engine lift crane for those near 100 lb engines that I use just around with ease.
Only responding quickly here as I just got back from a long run to the food store and was checking my messages.
Yes having the right wavelength is important. The UV dye I use requires 365 nM to work best. Plus the pen light is using a 3.7v boost battery vs the 1.5v one so it produces a brighter light response.
#11
C
Carver69
C
Carver69
Is the dye you use to highlight the oil or voids on aluminum where the dye won't penetrate ?
If you could share a product name I will just duplicate your process.
Nevermind. I just asked google and found about 20 solutions for the dye at the local auto stores. I will add some dye and fill the engine again.
I have been a woodcarver for roughly 50 years and have always been really active. Congestive heart failure for over 10 years but it did not really affect me much. Now I have a rarer version of an already rare disease called Grover's. The skin starts to delaminate causing disconnected layers in small " tears" most often found under sweat glands. Normally you get what looks like chigger bites that itch terribly 24/7 and last a month or more. In my version the adjacent tissues tears as the sweat glands start to accumulate sweat but cannot open up to release the sweat. that tears some nerve endings resulting what feels like very bad prickly heat quickly turning into what feels like bee stings. It is triggered by warm air, direct sunlight, physical exertion, emotional stress, spicy food. Lost about 40lbs of muscle mass in 6 months.
I recently lost a friend that was renting a house from me. His only heir does not want anything of his. There is a new engine lift in the garage I hope to get back home soon. Sadly there are 2 BMW motorcycles, a Suzuki bandit also in there but they have not been started in roughly 6 years. All three of them weigh over 500 lbs and even putting them on a trailer will be a test for me. the BMW's are really loaded. He did the "iron butt race" from NYC to LA nonstop several years on one and the other is a custom white pearl bagger.
All things considered I am vertical and still taking nourishment. Some folks aren't.
If you could share a product name I will just duplicate your process.
Nevermind. I just asked google and found about 20 solutions for the dye at the local auto stores. I will add some dye and fill the engine again.
I have been a woodcarver for roughly 50 years and have always been really active. Congestive heart failure for over 10 years but it did not really affect me much. Now I have a rarer version of an already rare disease called Grover's. The skin starts to delaminate causing disconnected layers in small " tears" most often found under sweat glands. Normally you get what looks like chigger bites that itch terribly 24/7 and last a month or more. In my version the adjacent tissues tears as the sweat glands start to accumulate sweat but cannot open up to release the sweat. that tears some nerve endings resulting what feels like very bad prickly heat quickly turning into what feels like bee stings. It is triggered by warm air, direct sunlight, physical exertion, emotional stress, spicy food. Lost about 40lbs of muscle mass in 6 months.
I recently lost a friend that was renting a house from me. His only heir does not want anything of his. There is a new engine lift in the garage I hope to get back home soon. Sadly there are 2 BMW motorcycles, a Suzuki bandit also in there but they have not been started in roughly 6 years. All three of them weigh over 500 lbs and even putting them on a trailer will be a test for me. the BMW's are really loaded. He did the "iron butt race" from NYC to LA nonstop several years on one and the other is a custom white pearl bagger.
All things considered I am vertical and still taking nourishment. Some folks aren't.
#12
Tiger Small Engine
Is it possible your oil leak came from not tightening the oil filter enough or incorrect oil filter? Is it still leaking oil?
Tiger Small Engine
Regarding the Kohler Courage (single cylinder specifically). I have never seen the “Kohler crack”, or any catastrophic damage due to sump bolts backing out. Plenty of loose sump bolts that I tightened after removing engine shroud.Is the dye you use to highlight the oil or voids on aluminum where the dye won't penetrate ?
If you could share a product name I will just duplicate your process.
Nevermind. I just asked google and found about 20 solutions for the dye at the local auto stores. I will add some dye and fill the engine again.
I have been a woodcarver for roughly 50 years and have always been really active. Congestive heart failure for over 10 years but it did not really affect me much. Now I have a rarer version of an already rare disease called Grover's. The skin starts to delaminate causing disconnected layers in small " tears" most often found under sweat glands. Normally you get what looks like chigger bites that itch terribly 24/7 and last a month or more. In my version the adjacent tissues tears as the sweat glands start to accumulate sweat but cannot open up to release the sweat. that tears some nerve endings resulting what feels like very bad prickly heat quickly turning into what feels like bee stings. It is triggered by warm air, direct sunlight, physical exertion, emotional stress, spicy food. Lost about 40lbs of muscle mass in 6 months.
I recently lost a friend that was renting a house from me. His only heir does not want anything of his. There is a new engine lift in the garage I hope to get back home soon. Sadly there are 2 BMW motorcycles, a Suzuki bandit also in there but they have not been started in roughly 6 years. All three of them weigh over 500 lbs and even putting them on a trailer will be a test for me. the BMW's are really loaded. He did the "iron butt race" from NYC to LA nonstop several years on one and the other is a custom white pearl bagger.
All things considered I am vertical and still taking nourishment. Some folks aren't.
Is it possible your oil leak came from not tightening the oil filter enough or incorrect oil filter? Is it still leaking oil?
#13
Hammermechanicman
Hammermechanicman
OIL FILTER. either missing the seal or wrong filter.I Picked it up and made a trailer ride back to home. Did a full tune-up and oil change. When I cranked it all the oil immediately sprayed out from beneath the motor in just a couple of seconds.
#14
C
Carver69
I have removed the engine but will need help getting it back upright to refill with oil. I will be adding tracking dye to the fill. I cannot see any clear path that the oil took to get on top of the bottom pulley. The parts I installed were all sold as OEM and the filter appeared to be a match for the original factory one. I prefilled it and oiled the rubber seal lightly. This was the first oil change it has ever had but probably has less than a few hundred hours on it since new.. It was apparently pooled up on the pulley before I started it. I was standing next to it when I started it and was able to kill it within seconds. oil continued to drain onto the trailer overnight and was below the tip of the dipstick. The continued draining was what lead me to suspect the lower crank seal. since I already have a new one ( from Kohler ), I'll put it in after I do the leak test. Since I will have the engine on a "bench" soon I will do any further PM I can do once I decide the main problem is solved.
Thanks for the suggestions. Phill
C
Carver69
I will be check the filter out better today ( or at least as soon as I can get some help.). It feels quite tight. If that turns out to be the original problem, I will be needing knee surgery very soon for kicking myself in the a$$ !Regarding the Kohler Courage (single cylinder specifically). I have never seen the “Kohler crack”, or any catastrophic damage due to sump bolts backing out. Plenty of loose sump bolts that I tightened after removing engine shroud.
Is it possible your oil leak came from not tightening the oil filter enough or incorrect oil filter? Is it still leaking oil?
I have removed the engine but will need help getting it back upright to refill with oil. I will be adding tracking dye to the fill. I cannot see any clear path that the oil took to get on top of the bottom pulley. The parts I installed were all sold as OEM and the filter appeared to be a match for the original factory one. I prefilled it and oiled the rubber seal lightly. This was the first oil change it has ever had but probably has less than a few hundred hours on it since new.. It was apparently pooled up on the pulley before I started it. I was standing next to it when I started it and was able to kill it within seconds. oil continued to drain onto the trailer overnight and was below the tip of the dipstick. The continued draining was what lead me to suspect the lower crank seal. since I already have a new one ( from Kohler ), I'll put it in after I do the leak test. Since I will have the engine on a "bench" soon I will do any further PM I can do once I decide the main problem is solved.
Thanks for the suggestions. Phill
#15
B
biggertv
B
biggertv
A Hole in the Block. Ask Taryl, he knows it didn't have the courage to keep a piston attached to the crankshaft.Purchased a Toro Bronco new 15 years (or more) ago and it has had a very babied life at a lakehouse that only gets used about 3 times a year. I had a need to loan it to son-in-law that burned up ( it literally caught on fire ) his new JD Zero turn.
Never had any issues at all with the Toro / Kohler other than replacing a couple of tires that dry-rotted.
I Picked it up and made a trailer ride back to home. Did a full tune-up and oil change. When I cranked it all the oil immediately sprayed out from beneath the motor in just a couple of seconds. I felt pretty sure it was a main seal on the crank because of he volume and speed with which it occurred and just ordered a new OEM seal. With the mower lifted overhead and pulleys removed The part of the motor around the crank is dry and dusty.
After a lot of digging online I stripped the top end of the motor and it does not even suffer the common oil leaks and all side of the engine are still dry and dusty.
When the oil was being discharged it came out like it was under high pressure directly down on the trailer ..
That was a lot of background for a relatively simple question. Does the Kohler Courage 20 have any type of opening beside the main seal on the very bottom of the engine that could of dumped all the oil in just a few seconds. If not, I am suspecting a catastrophic block crack. I can pull the engine and inspect the bottom but that simple act will cost me considerably and I will probably just cut my losses and try to find a used mower.
#16
J
Jimmyl
J
Jimmyl
Similar issue on a 7000 series Kohler. The crack was hard to see until engine was off. Mister Rod committed suicide!!
Tried to upload a pic. Apparently the server only handles very small files?
Tried to upload a pic. Apparently the server only handles very small files?
#17
A
Auto Doc's
A
Auto Doc's
Keep it simple, use a rag and a blow nozzle to apply very low-pressure air to the crankcase oil fill. A leak will present itself. You will see it or hear it.
#19
Alan46
Alan46
Great comment!Keep it simple, use a rag and a blow nozzle to apply very low-pressure air to the crankcase oil fill. A leak will present itself. You will see it or hear it.
#20
F
Forest#2
F
Forest#2
Something you did when you changed the oil if it was ok before.
for example oil filter not correct.
sump drain plug overtightened and cracked the block.
Spraying oil under pressure is a indicator of the oil filter area.
A $15 dye kit from the auto store would have saved you lots of time.
for example oil filter not correct.
sump drain plug overtightened and cracked the block.
Spraying oil under pressure is a indicator of the oil filter area.
A $15 dye kit from the auto store would have saved you lots of time.
#21
Alan46
Alan46
Makes a lot of sense to us!Something you did when you changed the oil if it was ok before.
for example oil filter not correct.
sump drain plug overtightened and cracked the block.
Spraying oil under pressure is a indicator of the oil filter area.
A $15 dye kit from the auto store would have saved you lots of time.
#22
C
Carver69
C
Carver69
Wet cold weather and health issues have kept me indoors and away from the mower for a week now. I did pick up a dye kit and hope to get the motor upright so I can try it this weekend.
I really did like the suggestion to replace the son-in law.
I really did like the suggestion to replace the son-in law.
#23
O
outdoorpowermike
O
outdoorpowermike
Purchased a Toro Bronco new 15 years (or more) ago and it has had a very babied life at a lakehouse that only gets used about 3 times a year. I had a need to loan it to son-in-law that burned up ( it literally caught on fire ) his new JD Zero turn.
Never had any issues at all with the Toro / Kohler other than replacing a couple of tires that dry-rotted.
I Picked it up and made a trailer ride back to home. Did a full tune-up and oil change. When I cranked it all the oil immediately sprayed out from beneath the motor in just a couple of seconds. I felt pretty sure it was a main seal on the crank because of he volume and speed with which it occurred and just ordered a new OEM seal. With the mower lifted overhead and pulleys removed The part of the motor around the crank is dry and dusty.
After a lot of digging online I stripped the top end of the motor and it does not even suffer the common oil leaks and all side of the engine are still dry and dusty.
When the oil was being discharged it came out like it was under high pressure directly down on the trailer ..
That was a lot of background for a relatively simple question. Does the Kohler Courage 20 have any type of opening beside the main seal on the very bottom of the engine that could of dumped all the oil in just a few seconds. If not, I am suspecting a catastrophic block crack. I can pull the engine and inspect the bottom but that simple act will cost me considerably and I will probably just cut my losses and try to find a used mower.
#24
K
ksvondrak
K
ksvondrak
Are you sure the new oil filter had the gasket properly in place or that the gasket from the old oil filter came off and it didn't double up?
#25
H
henerythe8th
Please check the oil filter.
You may have a 2 gasket situation!
H
henerythe8th
THIS!Are you sure the new oil filter had the gasket properly in place or that the gasket from the old oil filter came off and it didn't double up?
Please check the oil filter.
You may have a 2 gasket situation!
#26
R
ran440
R
ran440
So you just changed the oil and all of the sudden you have an oil leak. And you reinspected the oil filter that you just put on? The seal from the old filter may be stuck to the engine or you may have rolled the new seal from not putting oil on it before installing. Your engine is proly fine. Also if it has an oil cooler with rubber hoses check them. My $5 is on the oil filter.
#27
Z
zrxkawboy
Z
zrxkawboy
Wow, that's rough...sorry to hear. Hopefully you can find a specialist who can treat it and get you some relief.I have been a woodcarver for roughly 50 years and have always been really active. Congestive heart failure for over 10 years but it did not really affect me much. Now I have a rarer version of an already rare disease called Grover's. The skin starts to delaminate causing disconnected layers in small " tears" most often found under sweat glands. Normally you get what looks like chigger bites that itch terribly 24/7 and last a month or more. In my version the adjacent tissues tears as the sweat glands start to accumulate sweat but cannot open up to release the sweat. that tears some nerve endings resulting what feels like very bad prickly heat quickly turning into what feels like bee stings. It is triggered by warm air, direct sunlight, physical exertion, emotional stress, spicy food. Lost about 40lbs of muscle mass in 6 months.
#28
F
Freddie21
F
Freddie21
The main seal is not that difficult to replace and is not a large expense. That's if the engine pully comes right off. No need to pull the engine off. The oil will ride down the crank and settle on the pulley. Mine would be intermittent. Couple of sheet metal screws into the seal and it pulls right out. Lube the new one well and gently slide on. I used a short piece of 1.5" pvc pipe to tap into place.
#29
F
Freddie21
F
Freddie21
Like Ran said, oil filter the oil filler tube's O ring and the valve cover gaskets are everyday leaks.
#30
Alan46
Alan46
Not to be harsh on the OP. The only thing he did was an oil &filter change so that’s where he needs to look 
should not have pulled the engine!
Hope he is feeling better!
should not have pulled the engine! Hope he is feeling better!
#31
T
TobyU
These things kind of go in cycles.
It also has to do with the region they're in which affects people's mowing habits and the season.
I was tracking them quite well for a while and it seems that all the 2000 to 2003 models have already blown up. Lol
I thought anything 2006 or newer was out of the woods but I finally found two 2006s that had the bolts not tight enough but still not as bad as the old ones.
To this day I have never seen anything 2007 or above where the bolts weren't nice and tight.
It was just those front five also. And of course there's only two where the flywheel can hit and cause the crack but even before that those front four to five will loosen up and the whole cover will start to walk around and open up the guide pin hole and everything else.
If you catch it even at that point, you can clean all the threads out nicely and use at least blue loctite on them and preferably a lock washer or some kind of shoulder bolt that's a locking bolt along with loctite and torque them to the factory spec and it shouldn't happen again.
I still check everyone that comes in but I can pretty much guarantee that if it's 2007 or above they're going to be fine.
T
TobyU
Most of the ones that were going to have the major failure have already self-destructed and are out of circulation that's probably why you haven't seen them.Personally I have never a major failure of the Courage single though I have heard of them thru the grape vine. It is called a bucket engine for a reason as the crankcase is like a bucket.
Most times when lower crank seals go bad it is the lip next to crankshaft. While just sitting there oil runs down the crankshaft onto the motion drive pulley. Then when you crank up the engine oil is slung off that pulley. The engine's crankcase will be dry as oil does run uphill or spray uphill unless forced to do so.
Also when new seals are installed it is possible to roll the lip and have the gather spring to become dislodge causing leaks. Now on rarer occasions the seals can leak between itself and crankcase. But you are dealing with a seal that is 15 yrs old so I think as harden over the years on top of wearing normally. It is the reason I keep these seals in stock here.
Also you hadn't already disassemble the engine you could have used UV dye to find the leak down before doing an invasive disassembly. It can save a lot of unnecessary work.
These things kind of go in cycles.
It also has to do with the region they're in which affects people's mowing habits and the season.
I was tracking them quite well for a while and it seems that all the 2000 to 2003 models have already blown up. Lol
I thought anything 2006 or newer was out of the woods but I finally found two 2006s that had the bolts not tight enough but still not as bad as the old ones.
To this day I have never seen anything 2007 or above where the bolts weren't nice and tight.
It was just those front five also. And of course there's only two where the flywheel can hit and cause the crack but even before that those front four to five will loosen up and the whole cover will start to walk around and open up the guide pin hole and everything else.
If you catch it even at that point, you can clean all the threads out nicely and use at least blue loctite on them and preferably a lock washer or some kind of shoulder bolt that's a locking bolt along with loctite and torque them to the factory spec and it shouldn't happen again.
I still check everyone that comes in but I can pretty much guarantee that if it's 2007 or above they're going to be fine.
#33
F
fish56
F
fish56
Most probable issue. Years ago, I did this on a car I changed the oil on. I knew it was a possibility that the old oil filter might come off and leave its gasket behind. The one time I didn’t check, it happened. I drove my 77 Chrysler LeBaron about a mile and a half, smoking from the oil leaking onto the exhaust. Turned around and fixed the mistake when I got home. Never took it for granted again.Are you sure the new oil filter had the gasket properly in place or that the gasket from the old oil filter came off and it didn't double up?
#34
StarTech
StarTech
Could always be like me. I did an oil change on my PU and drove to a Walmart 20 miles away when the oil came on. When I check the oil I was two quarts low. Refilled and drove back again two qts low.
Come to find out via UV dye that the new oil had the stretch crack in its cup. Boy I thought I had a read main seal to blow. OIl filter under OEM warranty but they refused to honor it so I no longer buy Purlator filters. I could have lost an engine because of this.
Come to find out via UV dye that the new oil had the stretch crack in its cup. Boy I thought I had a read main seal to blow. OIl filter under OEM warranty but they refused to honor it so I no longer buy Purlator filters. I could have lost an engine because of this.
#35
ILENGINE
ILENGINE
Changed the oil and filter spring/summer of 2023 in my Kioti, and January of this year with 40 hours on the new oil and filter it started leaking, and had to turn the filter an additional 1/4 turn with a filter wrench to stop the leak. Changed the filter shortly thereafter to prevent any issues with being overtightened.
A couple month after that kept smelling diesel but couldn't find the leak until I had filled the tank full. Discovered that when the tank was installed at the factory back in 2005 the mounting strap had been overtightened and caused a kink in the side of the tank which caused it to crack over time. So $473 and 2 hours of labor later had the tank replaced. If it had been discovered when the tractor was new would of been a warranty repair, and there were a few tractors from the time frame that did have cracking tanks due to this issue that were replaced under warranty, but mine waited close to 20 years before failing.
A couple month after that kept smelling diesel but couldn't find the leak until I had filled the tank full. Discovered that when the tank was installed at the factory back in 2005 the mounting strap had been overtightened and caused a kink in the side of the tank which caused it to crack over time. So $473 and 2 hours of labor later had the tank replaced. If it had been discovered when the tractor was new would of been a warranty repair, and there were a few tractors from the time frame that did have cracking tanks due to this issue that were replaced under warranty, but mine waited close to 20 years before failing.
#36
Alan46
Alan46
I have a 2005 Kioti ck25 HST ,how hard is it to check the tank out for that problem or change the tank out?Changed the oil and filter spring/summer of 2023 in my Kioti, and January of this year with 40 hours on the new oil and filter it started leaking, and had to turn the filter an additional 1/4 turn with a filter wrench to stop the leak. Changed the filter shortly thereafter to prevent any issues with being overtightened.
A couple month after that kept smelling diesel but couldn't find the leak until I had filled the tank full. Discovered that when the tank was installed at the factory back in 2005 the mounting strap had been overtightened and caused a kink in the side of the tank which caused it to crack over time. So $473 and 2 hours of labor later had the tank replaced. If it had been discovered when the tractor was new would of been a warranty repair, and there were a few tractors from the time frame that did have cracking tanks due to this issue that were replaced under warranty, but mine waited close to 20 years before failing.
#37
ILENGINE
ILENGINE
I have a DK45S. I my case they tightened the strap over the top of the tank too tight which pushes the top of the tank down. The top 3 inches or so slopes at about a 45 degree angle. That point over time will cause it to bow inward which create a kink in the tank, and over time will cause a crack.
Changing my tank out required removing the hood, side shields, air filter, muffler. Unbolt the firewall to get it out of the way and then you have to unbolt the entire frame that the tank sits in and it has to be lifted out as a single unit, I used my overhead chain hoist to give lift since it has to be raised and tilled forward to wiggle it out from below the dash frame and the rear of the engine. Then after removing from the tractor then you can remove the strap that holds the tank to the tank frame.
But from the parts diagram for your tractor it looks like your tank bolts to the tank frame, not strapped to the frame with a flat band like mine. So your setup shouldn't have the same issue I had.
Changing my tank out required removing the hood, side shields, air filter, muffler. Unbolt the firewall to get it out of the way and then you have to unbolt the entire frame that the tank sits in and it has to be lifted out as a single unit, I used my overhead chain hoist to give lift since it has to be raised and tilled forward to wiggle it out from below the dash frame and the rear of the engine. Then after removing from the tractor then you can remove the strap that holds the tank to the tank frame.
But from the parts diagram for your tractor it looks like your tank bolts to the tank frame, not strapped to the frame with a flat band like mine. So your setup shouldn't have the same issue I had.
#38
Alan46
Alan46
Thank you for taking the time to research my question! You’re a good human bro!!!I have a DK45S. I my case they tightened the strap over the top of the tank too tight which pushes the top of the tank down. The top 3 inches or so slopes at about a 45 degree angle. That point over time will cause it to bow inward which create a kink in the tank, and over time will cause a crack.
Changing my tank out required removing the hood, side shields, air filter, muffler. Unbolt the firewall to get it out of the way and then you have to unbolt the entire frame that the tank sits in and it has to be lifted out as a single unit, I used my overhead chain hoist to give lift since it has to be raised and tilled forward to wiggle it out from below the dash frame and the rear of the engine. Then after removing from the tractor then you can remove the strap that holds the tank to the tank frame.
But from the parts diagram for your tractor it looks like your tank bolts to the tank frame, not strapped to the frame with a flat band like mine. So your setup shouldn't have the same issue I had.
#39
S
sessman55
S
sessman55
Purchased a Toro Bronco new 15 years (or more) ago and it has had a very babied life at a lakehouse that only gets used about 3 times a year. I had a need to loan it to son-in-law that burned up ( it literally caught on fire ) his new JD Zero turn.
Never had any issues at all with the Toro / Kohler other than replacing a couple of tires that dry-rotted.
I Picked it up and made a trailer ride back to home. Did a full tune-up and oil change. When I cranked it all the oil immediately sprayed out from beneath the motor in just a couple of seconds. I felt pretty sure it was a main seal on the crank because of he volume and speed with which it occurred and just ordered a new OEM seal. With the mower lifted overhead and pulleys removed The part of the motor around the crank is dry and dusty.
After a lot of digging online I stripped the top end of the motor and it does not even suffer the common oil leaks and all side of the engine are still dry and dusty.
When the oil was being discharged it came out like it was under high pressure directly down on the trailer ..
That was a lot of background for a relatively simple question. Does the Kohler Courage 20 have any type of opening beside the main seal on the very bottom of the engine that could of dumped all the oil in just a few seconds. If not, I am suspecting a catastrophic block crack. I can pull the engine and inspect the bottom but that simple act will cost me considerably and I will probably just cut my losses and try to find a used mower.
#40
S
sessman55
S
sessman55
The courage engine is notorious for the block cracking near the top front of the engine. Remove the top cover and the flywheel and you’ll see the issue straight away.Purchased a Toro Bronco new 15 years (or more) ago and it has had a very babied life at a lakehouse that only gets used about 3 times a year. I had a need to loan it to son-in-law that burned up ( it literally caught on fire ) his new JD Zero turn.
Never had any issues at all with the Toro / Kohler other than replacing a couple of tires that dry-rotted.
I Picked it up and made a trailer ride back to home. Did a full tune-up and oil change. When I cranked it all the oil immediately sprayed out from beneath the motor in just a couple of seconds. I felt pretty sure it was a main seal on the crank because of he volume and speed with which it occurred and just ordered a new OEM seal. With the mower lifted overhead and pulleys removed The part of the motor around the crank is dry and dusty.
After a lot of digging online I stripped the top end of the motor and it does not even suffer the common oil leaks and all side of the engine are still dry and dusty.
When the oil was being discharged it came out like it was under high pressure directly down on the trailer ..
That was a lot of background for a relatively simple question. Does the Kohler Courage 20 have any type of opening beside the main seal on the very bottom of the engine that could have dumped all the oil in just a few seconds. If not, I am suspecting a catastrophic block crack. I can pull the engine and inspect the bottom but that simple act will cost me considerably and I will probably just cut my losses and try to find a used mower.
#41
S
slomo
S
slomo
Dude, plastic weld it up. If it was plastic that is. Did you get the replacement Rolls Royce part or what? LOLcaused a kink in the side of the tank which caused it to crack over time. So $473 and 2 hours of labor later had the tank replaced.
#42
ILENGINE
First picture is suppose to be what the tank looks like, second is what happened when the clamp strap pushed down on the top of tank.
So there is no way to prevent the pressure from the strap from trying to push the bent area inward recracking the tank. Also the tank also has stress cracks around the fuel level sending unit hole mounting studs in the top of the tank. Keep in mind this is a 15.3 gallon tank from a 45 HP tractor
ILENGINE
My original plan was to plastic weld it. But were the crack in the side of the tank it sits on a bevel on the tank between the top and the side of the tank. When the mounting strap was overtightened it pushed that flat bevel inward basically caving in the center of that bevel.Dude, plastic weld it up. If it was plastic that is. Did you get the replacement Rolls Royce part or what? LOL
First picture is suppose to be what the tank looks like, second is what happened when the clamp strap pushed down on the top of tank.
So there is no way to prevent the pressure from the strap from trying to push the bent area inward recracking the tank. Also the tank also has stress cracks around the fuel level sending unit hole mounting studs in the top of the tank. Keep in mind this is a 15.3 gallon tank from a 45 HP tractor