Keep roaching starter solenoids

[whalelinguini]

I have a DR pull TB23044BEN with a briggs 16.5hp motor. Unfortunately I do not have the exact engine model information on hand as the machine is at another property.

I keep losing solenoids like crazy, I swear its at min every season. I've been either replacing myself, or a trusted shop do the work, to which they run a good operation.

Wiring is clean, I see no corrosion, visual inspection everything looks perfectly fine. Now I have not voltage drop tested anything yet. My battery dead shorted on me (which also didn't help anything), and I was dealing with a few other issues at the time so I just didn't get that far. I'm starting to wonder if maybe my starter is just starting to go, I haven't noticed anything unusual, but maybe it's taking a bit longer to crank than it used to and I didn't notice type deal. I just can't seem to find any real root issue.

I had the shop I use order me a new solenoid, I forget not if/what OE is, but I want to say it's not possible to source or the wait time is something absurd. I got a Generac 101551 as a replacement. Which, should be perfectly fine.

Assuming the voltage drop tests come back good, and power, grounds, wiring in general, are fault free. I guess I am looking for advice on what I should try/do next. So I would *assume* the Generac part to be just fine for this machine, but looked into what I could get thats a bit more beef. I think a Cole Hersee 24106 fits the bill nice, and pretty sure it would directly drop in. From what I looked into, matches the 200a continuous currant, and will take a 600a surge over the 400a of the Generac. the Generac uses copper plated contacts, while the cole is pure copper. Making some assumptions on the coil quality, but the Generac I feel would be just your "average" grade, where the cole is designed for fleet type use so I would imagine it to be a bit more beef.

Distance/time is an issue for me, so even "just take the starter to get tested" is going to be a 1/2 day event for me. I'm just trying to cover as many bases as I can basically due to this.

I don't part hang, but if someone had some reasonable evidence for something I am unaware of, it wouldn't bother me greatly to stick a new starter on it as well if anyone thinks thats reasonable enough to assume could be the issue. Thinking about it now.... it's a 2018, and I am not sure if I have replaced it ever, at best maybe it was done once, and would have been long enough back when part quality/availability in general was not as terrible as it is now. No way there's some ebay china starter on it.

Any input would greatly be appreciated, as well if anyone thinks there's a "should do this while you're at it" type deal.

 

[Auto Doc's]

Hello W.

I've been working with Equipment and Automotive electrical for 50+ years and there are still times when things fool me. The approach of "it looks good and tight" has tricked me way too many times to count.

First, get a good battery in this thing before doing any testing.

Repeated solenoid failures are usually caused by excessive cranking for long periods, but the cables also need to be tested well. Jump starting and trying to nurse a chronically weak or dead battery is never good either. Low Amperage from a weak battery creates excessive heat and that kills solenoid contact and damages the starter armature.

A proper voltage drop test should find the issue. Be exact where you place the meter lead ends. Battery cable crimp connections are a common problem.

If you have an Amp clamp style meter, test what the Amp draw is on each cable when cranking (Just like you would with a voltage drop test). An Amp clamp is a handy thing to have for any starting or charging system testing. Simply bench testing a starter does not place a load on it. That is all most shops do... "if it spins, it's good" then they want your money for a "lame opinion" and not an actual stress/ load test of the starter.

I've had bad starters pass a simple free spinning bench test too many times.

There are a lot of great You Tube videos about voltage drop testing. Most are on automotive, but the same principles apply.

Ohm's and Kirkoff's Laws are both handy to know and apply here.

Hope this helps you.

 

[whalelinguini]

Thank you for the input, yes I need to get a good battery before any other tests can be done. I should maybe clarify some, that I shortcutted by saying "my" referring to the DR when it's actually my fathers, and I don't use it as often as he does. I am also a snow state and it's in a pole shed in a snow state so.... freeze thaw freeze thaw repeat.

- The approach of "it looks good and tight" has tricked me way too many times to count.
Oh yes been there, it was about the best I could do at the time just given the tools I had. I would almost have preferred to see a nice green rotted connector half hanging on.

I can see someone at some point ran a new ground just because of the obvious wire difference. When I was starting the initial diag I saw there was no battery cutoff, I tried to explain this concept, not that a cutoff would solve that issue but good practice for this use case IMO.

- Low Amperage from a weak battery creates excessive heat and that kills solenoid contact and damages the starter armature.
Valid, it's been a hot while, Felt like an "on the edge" type deal, just the somewhere could be a few things, I didn't think about what I said above, applied over years, certainly would not be helping.

I have an amp clamp, and can do that test, at the time I just had some cheap whatever multimeter, was going to bring my fluke over when I can look at it again in the next week or two. At min, I have a meter I can trust. Load testing, since it's been a while, I go where a load is applied, not a jumper to see if it spins as you mentioned. But I see what you are saying and fully agree.

-There are a lot of great You Tube videos about voltage drop testing. Most are on automotive, but the same principles apply.
Oddly my background was ASE, just not professionally for a decade+. But my niche was European and electrical, the things everyone generally groans about or turns away from shops.

So I guess maybe distilled down, and this is just due to the hours I have to put in to do things correctly. Since this has been on going, and I know the battery storage issue has been at min an issue (forgot that bit in my first post), reasonable/unreasonable to part hang a starter? My goal is to have this run all season, and next. I am trying to avoid having a slightly weak starter that fails next season when needed. I'm only defending the part hang based on the time it would take me to do things correct. Apply a shop rate hour (on site) and I feel it would be unreasonably high with a greater chance of maybe next season that's when the starter wants to fully fail. I could then take the old one to get rebuilt and put it on a shelf for a rainy day backup as well which is a plus. Or am I grossly overthinking this?

-Ohm's and Kirkoff's Laws are both handy to know and apply here.
Yup, V=I/R or, or. Kirkoff Vodka and working on machinery = poor decisions.... maybe I mixed that last one up

Edit: A few for formatting
Edit 2: The solenoid. It's over spec'd for factory, but the part cost seems to be the same if not cheaper or easier to find in todays part world. Maybe I will guinea pig that should/when things change again sourcing parts. I could pull a datasheet for the cole, could not find one for the Generac. I'm hoping at least this comment may help someone down the road during a google search if no one has input one way or another on the subject. Will do my best to post the results should I go down that avenue for some extra luck.