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HRX217TDA Extremely hard to start
#1
H
HurstGN
H
HurstGN
OK, so I have an HRX217TDA that was fine till late last year. Late last year it went from starting in 1-2 pulls, to taking 5-6-7 pulls to start. This year, it takes 10+ pulls to start, and if I get to 10 pulls, I'm using starting fluid to start it. Once it does start, it runs best on full choke. Putting it to the fast run position it seems to not be running as fast as it should. I've read up a bunch and tried many things to fix this problem.
What I've done so far and the results:
- Verify choke plate is moving as commanded by the throttle lever. The choke does close when set to choke, and opens when throttle is pulled off the choke setting.
- New fuel with Star Tron stabilizer. I always use a stabilizer and I switched over to this one as it's supposed to have some cleaning properties (maybe). No change.
- Removed and cleaned the carb - no change, still a hard start. The carb looked really clean when I cleaned it. I found no passages blocked.
- New carb and gaskets - no change on starting, but now it surges hunting up and down on speed. This was a result of putting the air deflector and 1/4" spacer gasket in the wrong order when assembling. took it apart and verified ALL gasket passages and holes are in the right position and correct order and that solved the surging, but it's still a hard start. I really expected the new carb would be the fix. The new carb is a Honda OEM, the upgraded version where the fuel bowl is now tapered without the drain screw. The original carb was the one with the fuel bowl with straight sides and the drain screw. That shouldn't matter, but I have both in case one is really better than the other.
- New spark plug - no change, still a hard start, still need to run it on full choke.
I think the key is that it will start on 1-2 pulls if I use starting fluid says I still have a fuel problem even though I have a new carb. Plus that I need to run it on full choke to keep the RPM's running where they should be points to a fuel problem. Once it's been warmed up, it will start on a single pull as expected. even warmed up, it runs better under full choke.
I must be missing something simple and I really don't want to have to take it to a dealer as it does not fit in my trunk. I'd need a friend with a truck or rent one to get it to a dealer. Any help is greatly appreciated at this point as I have no idea what to do next, and I'm worried I'm causing damage running it in full choke mode to cut the grass.
Thanks
Dan
What I've done so far and the results:
- Verify choke plate is moving as commanded by the throttle lever. The choke does close when set to choke, and opens when throttle is pulled off the choke setting.
- New fuel with Star Tron stabilizer. I always use a stabilizer and I switched over to this one as it's supposed to have some cleaning properties (maybe). No change.
- Removed and cleaned the carb - no change, still a hard start. The carb looked really clean when I cleaned it. I found no passages blocked.
- New carb and gaskets - no change on starting, but now it surges hunting up and down on speed. This was a result of putting the air deflector and 1/4" spacer gasket in the wrong order when assembling. took it apart and verified ALL gasket passages and holes are in the right position and correct order and that solved the surging, but it's still a hard start. I really expected the new carb would be the fix. The new carb is a Honda OEM, the upgraded version where the fuel bowl is now tapered without the drain screw. The original carb was the one with the fuel bowl with straight sides and the drain screw. That shouldn't matter, but I have both in case one is really better than the other.
- New spark plug - no change, still a hard start, still need to run it on full choke.
I think the key is that it will start on 1-2 pulls if I use starting fluid says I still have a fuel problem even though I have a new carb. Plus that I need to run it on full choke to keep the RPM's running where they should be points to a fuel problem. Once it's been warmed up, it will start on a single pull as expected. even warmed up, it runs better under full choke.
I must be missing something simple and I really don't want to have to take it to a dealer as it does not fit in my trunk. I'd need a friend with a truck or rent one to get it to a dealer. Any help is greatly appreciated at this point as I have no idea what to do next, and I'm worried I'm causing damage running it in full choke mode to cut the grass.
Thanks
Dan
#3
H
HurstGN
Thank you Mark !!
I'm off to the store to get a set of feeler gauges and some permatex to seal it all back up after adjusting. I'll check in with results once the permatex is setup and I can try starting the mower.
.....aaaaand my weekend work assignment begins......
H
HurstGN
Thank you Mark !!
I'm off to the store to get a set of feeler gauges and some permatex to seal it all back up after adjusting. I'll check in with results once the permatex is setup and I can try starting the mower.
.....aaaaand my weekend work assignment begins......
#4
H
HurstGN
I set the valve lash, it was a little loose but not too far off. I sealed the cover and let it seal overnight. This morning, 10 pulls and no start, I gave up and put it away.
Any thing else I could have missed?
H
HurstGN
Thank you Mark !!
I'm off to the store to get a set of feeler gauges and some permatex to seal it all back up after adjusting. I'll check in with results once the permatex is setup and I can try starting the mower.
.....aaaaand my weekend work assignment begins......
I set the valve lash, it was a little loose but not too far off. I sealed the cover and let it seal overnight. This morning, 10 pulls and no start, I gave up and put it away.
Any thing else I could have missed?
#5
M
mechanic mark
oil on dipstick look ok? air filter & spark plug ok? have you inspected flywheel key? inspect woodruff key above rotary blades?
M
mechanic mark
oil on dipstick look ok? air filter & spark plug ok? have you inspected flywheel key? inspect woodruff key above rotary blades?
#6
M
murraymower
M
murraymower
Fuel might not be the problem as much as a mass air intake situation. I assume all new gaskets were installed with the new carb? Also you need to look closely at the gaslet between the filter box and carburetor.
#7
H
HurstGN
H
HurstGN
Oil is in the proper range on the dipstick. I don't know that changing the oil would be of much help at this point, but I can do it.
The spark plug is a new NGK. The air filter looks new, no visible dirt on it. Honda filter. I have not pulled the flywheel yet to check the key.
I did replace all gaskets when I installed the new carb. I did do the 1/4 thick plastic one out of order the first time I replaced it (mounted it on the wrong side of the air deflector) and that caused a surging issue to surface along with the hard start. After that mistake, I pulled the carb and ensured ALL the gaskets were oriented properly, paying close attention to the small air holes in the gaskets. I'd think the gasket between the carb and air cleaner is kinda ruled out because the choke butterfly is closed and that butterfly is closer than the gasket between the air filter housing and the carb. Is it possible the breather tube is causing a problem? I have it hooked up, but did not trace it back to where it's connected to the engine. Although it feeds to a channel that is also farther away from the choke plate, so maybe not my problem.
If I give it a shot of starting fluid, it starts right up. It runs to cut the grass. When I stop to empty the bag, it starts right up again like it should. It's only the initial start that is killing me. I'm beginning to think this new carb is defective and I just hadn't cleaned the original good enough as this all seems to be fuel related. The starting fluid gets me going indicating I'm fuel starved when I first start it. And once going, I can cut the entire yard no problem. I even let it run out of gas the last time I cut to see if that had any different effect on the situation. It ran dry and stopped. So I know the carb bowl was empty. I filled the tank and it started right back up. No trouble. It's just that first start that I wear out an arm pulling the recoil over and over and over.... And I have the manual choke, so there is no automatic choke involved here.
The spark plug is a new NGK. The air filter looks new, no visible dirt on it. Honda filter. I have not pulled the flywheel yet to check the key.
I did replace all gaskets when I installed the new carb. I did do the 1/4 thick plastic one out of order the first time I replaced it (mounted it on the wrong side of the air deflector) and that caused a surging issue to surface along with the hard start. After that mistake, I pulled the carb and ensured ALL the gaskets were oriented properly, paying close attention to the small air holes in the gaskets. I'd think the gasket between the carb and air cleaner is kinda ruled out because the choke butterfly is closed and that butterfly is closer than the gasket between the air filter housing and the carb. Is it possible the breather tube is causing a problem? I have it hooked up, but did not trace it back to where it's connected to the engine. Although it feeds to a channel that is also farther away from the choke plate, so maybe not my problem.
If I give it a shot of starting fluid, it starts right up. It runs to cut the grass. When I stop to empty the bag, it starts right up again like it should. It's only the initial start that is killing me. I'm beginning to think this new carb is defective and I just hadn't cleaned the original good enough as this all seems to be fuel related. The starting fluid gets me going indicating I'm fuel starved when I first start it. And once going, I can cut the entire yard no problem. I even let it run out of gas the last time I cut to see if that had any different effect on the situation. It ran dry and stopped. So I know the carb bowl was empty. I filled the tank and it started right back up. No trouble. It's just that first start that I wear out an arm pulling the recoil over and over and over.... And I have the manual choke, so there is no automatic choke involved here.
#8
D
deckeda
D
deckeda
I don't have a solution for you except to say that if the flywheel key was bad it wouldn't ever really run right. Ditto carburetor health: there shouldn't be a dedicated fuel circuit for starting, so there shouldn't be a clogging issue related to starting up.
You say you verified the choke butterfly is closing properly. Can you try starting it without the air cleaner assembly? Can you try starting with no choke engaged, instead holding your hand or a piece of paper or cardboard covering the carb inlet? I realize you'd need a helper for this and/or perhaps custom studs/nuts if this is the sort of setup that only stays put when everything from behind the carb all the way to the air cleaner housing is held together at once.
Last month it ran me $115 at the dealer to reinstall my carb and adjust the governor. No new parts. Even with Honda's service manual illustrations I still had assembled part of it wrong. I saw the choke butterfly closing but it still wouldn't start. But that was with an auto choke model. So I can't explain that, unless a misshapen gasket somehow prevented the throttle from opening when in choke mode and I just couldn't witness it.
You say you verified the choke butterfly is closing properly. Can you try starting it without the air cleaner assembly? Can you try starting with no choke engaged, instead holding your hand or a piece of paper or cardboard covering the carb inlet? I realize you'd need a helper for this and/or perhaps custom studs/nuts if this is the sort of setup that only stays put when everything from behind the carb all the way to the air cleaner housing is held together at once.
Last month it ran me $115 at the dealer to reinstall my carb and adjust the governor. No new parts. Even with Honda's service manual illustrations I still had assembled part of it wrong. I saw the choke butterfly closing but it still wouldn't start. But that was with an auto choke model. So I can't explain that, unless a misshapen gasket somehow prevented the throttle from opening when in choke mode and I just couldn't witness it.
#9
H
HurstGN
H
HurstGN
I'll give this a try once we get out of the monsoons this week. We've been getting the leftovers from tornado alley and those leftovers carry a lot of rain. 5" yesterday alone.
I did take my old carb apart and re-clean from the ground up. I'm going to put it back on in case there is a defect with the new carb and I missed some dirt in the old carb the first time around.
I'll post my results.
I did take my old carb apart and re-clean from the ground up. I'm going to put it back on in case there is a defect with the new carb and I missed some dirt in the old carb the first time around.
I'll post my results.
#10
M
mechanic mark
M
mechanic mark
did you adjust valves on correct stroke? first remove spark plug & insert plastic straw, i use a long skinny phillips screwdriver, & rotate top screen on engine by hand until piston is at TDC & both rocker arms are loose & uniform, now you are ready to adjust both valves.
#11
H
HurstGN
Yes.
H
HurstGN
did you adjust valves on correct stroke? first remove spark plug & insert plastic straw, i use a long skinny phillips screwdriver, & rotate top screen on engine by hand until piston is at TDC & both rocker arms are loose & uniform, now you are ready to adjust both valves.
Yes.
#12
gotomow
gotomow
Have you replaced the Thermowax Choke Actuator? Here is a video from Grass Daddy:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxuP0Pv25-I&t=240s
#13
H
HurstGN
This is a manual choke dinosaur, many years (I think) before the auto choke. I have verified the choke does work properly.
I'm hoping tomorrow for the rain to stop and I can get a chance to put the original carb back on. I re-cleaned it in hopes the fuel delivery issue was something still in the carb and the new carb is "defective" somewhere.
H
HurstGN
Have you replaced the Thermowax Choke Actuator? Here is a video from Grass Daddy:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxuP0Pv25-I&t=240s
This is a manual choke dinosaur, many years (I think) before the auto choke. I have verified the choke does work properly.
I'm hoping tomorrow for the rain to stop and I can get a chance to put the original carb back on. I re-cleaned it in hopes the fuel delivery issue was something still in the carb and the new carb is "defective" somewhere.
#14
gotomow
gotomow
Since you say it starts with starting fluid but then has issues, have you tried bypassing the fuel tank and hooking up a different fuel supply directly to the carb? If it starts and runs you have narrowed it down to dirty tank or bad fuel line between tank and carb or perhaps both issues.
#15
H
HurstGN
H
HurstGN
Since I was racing to cut grass between thunderstorms this weekend, I didn't get a chance to revisit the fuel system. I again started it with some starting fluid and cut the entire lawn. I did have to stop for about 30 minutes at one point, and when I went to restart it, it restarted on the first pull. I hope to get to take it ll apart again this week, maybe, and see if I can further pinpoint the issue. I'll report findings once I get it apart again.
#16
H
HurstGN
H
HurstGN
Per post #13, I had thoroughly re-cleaned the original carb. The first time I cleaned it, I did not remove the needle valve as you have to break the screw head off and replace the entire valve/screw/spring assembly. Well, this time I decided the needle valve was the only thing that wasn't cleaned twice, so it had to come out. I carefully removed the part on the side of the screw head that prevents it from turning and cleaned the needle valve and the port, along with every square mm of the entire carb, again.
Yesterday I had a very small window of light and good weather before night would again prevent me from working on the mower. So I removed the new carb and replaced it with the double-cleaned old carb. I also again removed the fuel tank, fuel hoses, and shut off valve. Opened the shut off valve, fuel flowed freely. I used this to drain the tank. Once drained, I removed the hoses/valve from the tank and used carb cleaner in both directions through the hoses/valve. No obstruction was found and carb cleaner flowed freely like the gas did. Since this model has the filter inside the tank, I couldn't do much with the filter. I hit it from both sides with carb cleaner and cleaner flowed without any obstruction. Also for good measure, I blew carb cleaner through the breather part of the air filter housing. Again, cleaner flowed freely in both directions. I found no dirt or obstructions anywhere. Time to put it all back together, it's starting to get dark.
I reassembled the tank, hoses/valve, and the old twice cleaned carb. I payed attention to the gaskets and now since they have been mounted for a while, they all held in place making it easier to reassemble. Always pay attention to the gasket orientation as those small holes are important. I put it all back together and held my breath. It started on the first pull !! Since I cleaned so many things again, I have no idea what may have been the culprit. If anything, I'd suspect the needle valve since this was the first cleaning for it. But why the new Honda carb didn't fix it is kinda puzzling. I didn't buy some Chinesium carb...I bought an OEM carb from a dealer.
I ran it for about 5 minutes and shut it off for about 5 minutes, then restarted. 1 pull. But restarts were always 1 pull. So for now I'm assuming it's fixed. I'll see how it goes when I actually get it out to cut grass next time. Here's hoping for 1 pull starts going forward.
Thank you ALL for the assistance and ideas. While I can't exactly pinpoint it to one thing, I know all of these things were good to do to ensure the engine is setup properly. I now know a little more than I did before and I'm glad I learned something. I'm nowhere near as knowledgeable as the pro's on the forum, but I am one step closer in a long mile or more to knowing what they know. Again, thanks all for helping me learn a little more about my mower.
Next I want to find an inexpensive means to measure the RPM's to make sure the engine is running at the right speed. It still seems just a tad slow on the RPM's.
Thanks
Dan
Yesterday I had a very small window of light and good weather before night would again prevent me from working on the mower. So I removed the new carb and replaced it with the double-cleaned old carb. I also again removed the fuel tank, fuel hoses, and shut off valve. Opened the shut off valve, fuel flowed freely. I used this to drain the tank. Once drained, I removed the hoses/valve from the tank and used carb cleaner in both directions through the hoses/valve. No obstruction was found and carb cleaner flowed freely like the gas did. Since this model has the filter inside the tank, I couldn't do much with the filter. I hit it from both sides with carb cleaner and cleaner flowed without any obstruction. Also for good measure, I blew carb cleaner through the breather part of the air filter housing. Again, cleaner flowed freely in both directions. I found no dirt or obstructions anywhere. Time to put it all back together, it's starting to get dark.
I reassembled the tank, hoses/valve, and the old twice cleaned carb. I payed attention to the gaskets and now since they have been mounted for a while, they all held in place making it easier to reassemble. Always pay attention to the gasket orientation as those small holes are important. I put it all back together and held my breath. It started on the first pull !! Since I cleaned so many things again, I have no idea what may have been the culprit. If anything, I'd suspect the needle valve since this was the first cleaning for it. But why the new Honda carb didn't fix it is kinda puzzling. I didn't buy some Chinesium carb...I bought an OEM carb from a dealer.
I ran it for about 5 minutes and shut it off for about 5 minutes, then restarted. 1 pull. But restarts were always 1 pull. So for now I'm assuming it's fixed. I'll see how it goes when I actually get it out to cut grass next time. Here's hoping for 1 pull starts going forward.
Thank you ALL for the assistance and ideas. While I can't exactly pinpoint it to one thing, I know all of these things were good to do to ensure the engine is setup properly. I now know a little more than I did before and I'm glad I learned something. I'm nowhere near as knowledgeable as the pro's on the forum, but I am one step closer in a long mile or more to knowing what they know. Again, thanks all for helping me learn a little more about my mower.
Next I want to find an inexpensive means to measure the RPM's to make sure the engine is running at the right speed. It still seems just a tad slow on the RPM's.
Thanks
Dan
#17
T
tadawson
T
tadawson
Not sure on that carb, but on other Honda carbs if you apply heat to the needle cap, the adhesive will release and it will come off without breaking anything . . . (despite the docs telling you you have to break it . . .).
#18
H
HurstGN
H
HurstGN
Interesting. I hadn't thought about heat working. After seeing a video on how much pressure was used to snap it off, I just thought it was more like an epoxy type of glue used to hold it on. In any case, I can remove mine now when I want, if I need to. :biggrin:
#19
J
jp1961
J
jp1961
Just as an FYI to me,,,how do you know if you're at TDC on the compression stroke, or TDC on the exhaust stroke?
Just removing the spark plug and inserting a straw will only tell you you're at TDC on the compression stroke 50 percent of the time.
Thanks
Jeff
Just removing the spark plug and inserting a straw will only tell you you're at TDC on the compression stroke 50 percent of the time.
Thanks
Jeff
#20
H
HurstGN
H
HurstGN
I watched the opening and closing of the intake and exhaust valves to identify the compression stroke.
#21
T
tadawson
Most folks report that the adhesive looks like red LokTite, which is designed to release with heat (mine did and did . . . ) . . . (heck, epoxy generally does as well, but too thick for this application . . . ).
- Tim
T
tadawson
Interesting. I hadn't thought about heat working. After seeing a video on how much pressure was used to snap it off, I just thought it was more like an epoxy type of glue used to hold it on. In any case, I can remove mine now when I want, if I need to. :biggrin:
Most folks report that the adhesive looks like red LokTite, which is designed to release with heat (mine did and did . . . ) . . . (heck, epoxy generally does as well, but too thick for this application . . . ).
- Tim
#22
H
HurstGN
H
HurstGN
The one pull start was a fantasy. Got home after work and it took 15 pulls to get it started. :frown::thumbdown: