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Greetings all

Have a problematic HRR2167 mower with a GCV160 engine that has started giving me real performance problems.

This is my third summer with the monster, and each year its given fresh regular unleaded gas and fresh oil. It mows a very simple, relatively flat residential yard, and has worked well until this summer, when I noticed it started to run really rough - black smoke, surging, the works.

First stop - spark plug. Existing plug fairly sooty, new plug installed. Runs - a little better, but not much. Not what I'm accustomed to. Next, air filter: Still virtually pristine - can easily see light through it. No real difference running with the filter completely off. With the presentation of black smoke, I start thinking actual carburetor plugging issues. So I tear it down, and notice the carb looks really clean, but I take it apart and clean it anyway.
No joy.

If anything, it starts to run worse, surging worse, so I run the fuel tank dry and get absolutely new, fresh gas - still no joy.

I'm no mechanic, but I've read at least enough to check out these few things, and with the beast still running rough, I'm out of ideas.

Is there something out of the box I'm just overlooking?

Thanks for any advice.

I would say your jets in the carb are clogged.
When you cleaned the carb. did you blow compressed air through the jets?

sea157 said:

I would say your jets in the carb are clogged.
When you cleaned the carb. did you blow compressed air through the jets?

Click to expand...

Hi, sea157 and thanks for the reply. Absolutely did blow compressed air through the jets when I cleaned the carb. Used air, carb cleaner, cleaned inside/out.

And in case I didn't make it clear in the original post, I've used no ethanol in the mower at all.

If you are sure you have the carburetor clean then make sure the choke is coming all the way open once it is warmed up.
Black smoke is coming from a carburetor rich condition.
I am sure your problem is in the carburetor somewhere.

Dave,
Just in case the Carb. is not cleaned correctly here is a link on how to clean a Honda Carb.



How To Clean a Honda Carburetor - Lawn Mower Forums : Lawnmower Reviews, Repair, Pricing and Discussion Forum

Did you use all new gaskets for carb?

sea157 said:

If you are sure you have the carburetor clean then make sure the choke is coming all the way open once it is warmed up.
Black smoke is coming from a carburetor rich condition.

Click to expand...

This ^^^^ +100

A closed or partially-closed choke on a warm engine will result in a too-rich fuel state, which can cause the engine to run poorly and quickly foul the spark plug. Black smoke is indeed a solid indicator of a too-rich state (too much fuel, not enough air). A clogged air filter can also cause this condition.

Hey everyone...thought I would update this thread.

I ordered a new carb for my mower (which I'm embarrassed to admit is actually a HRR2168, not 7), and it was backordered. Took nearly two weeks to arrive. Came in yesterday, installed it.

Mixed results.

The good:

* The horrible running condition exhibited before (that precipitated the problem in the first place) is almost entirely cured. No more puffing and coughing, no more black smoke. I was able to mow the grass with my mower for the first time in about ten days.

The bad:

* Note I said "almost" cured...Welll, the engine starts, and initially runs fine...put it under load with the blade engaged, it runs great and mows like a monster. But....when I disengage the blade clutch to empty the bag, now with the engine warm, the engine repeatedly surges and slows..surges and slows...at about two (?) second intervals. Put it back under load (re-engage the clutch) and it runs fine.

Sooo...any new thoughts? I can mow again, but obviously the beast isn't yet entirely healthy. Can't declare victory quite yet.

OklahomaDave said:

Hey everyone...thought I would update this thread. I ordered a new carb for my mower (which I'm embarrassed to admit is actually a HRR2168, not 7), and it was backordered. Took nearly two weeks to arrive. Came in yesterday, installed it. Mixed results. The good: * The horrible running condition exhibited before (that precipitated the problem in the first place) is almost entirely cured. No more puffing and coughing, no more black smoke. I was able to mow the grass with my mower for the first time in about ten days. The bad: * Note I said "almost" cured...Welll, the engine starts, and initially runs fine...put it under load with the blade engaged, it runs great and mows like a monster. But....when I disengage the blade clutch to empty the bag, now with the engine warm, the engine repeatedly surges and slows..surges and slows...at about two (?) second intervals. Put it back under load (re-engage the clutch) and it runs fine. Sooo...any new thoughts? I can mow again, but obviously the beast isn't yet entirely healthy. Can't declare victory quite yet.

Click to expand...

check gaskets and check thottle cable connection at carb. I had same issue and found i had hooked the throttle cable into the wrong hole on carb after a carb replacement and the govenor was going nuts causing surge. Fixed it for me. A handa guy (robert) was a huge help for me on here. Was resurecting a hrt216tda self propelled. Run great now. Found a bag on craigslist to pick up as finishing touch tomorrow.

Hi_
The other posters mentioned the auto choke malfunctioning-did you ask the dealer about the service bulletin regarding the auto choke problems Honda did have?

The surging condition is due to lean(less fuel) carb settings by Honda to satisfy the EPA, the dealer will state this is "normal". It can be corrected by adjusting the jetting (pilot jet), but you should seek out a good mower mechanic for that.

You have /had 2 separate issues- the auto choke , then the carb jetting (dealer wll say it's not a problem, that's your call if it irritates you enough).

FYI, OP's model is an HRR216(K)7. This was the last version (K-number) of the HRR-series mowers that came with a manual choke.

Autochoke started with K8 versions of the HRR (steel mower decks), such as HRR2168VKA

Autochoke started with K3 version of the HRX (composite mower decks), such as HRX2173VKA

robert@honda said:

FYI, OP's model is an HRR216(K)7. This was the last version (K-number) of the HRR-series mowers that came with a manual choke.

Autochoke started with K8 versions of the HRR (steel mower decks), such as HRR2168VKA

Autochoke started with K3 version of the HRX (composite mower decks), such as HRX2173VKA

Click to expand...

Robert, thank you for replying. I have to admit to being a dunce on my original post - my mower is, in fact, an HRR2168. The title of my original post is wrong, but I don't see a way to edit it. My apologies for the confusion.

When my mower was new, it *never* surged the way it is now. Autochoke would be a perfectly reasonable next step, wouldn't it?

Mystik2stroke said:

Hi_
The other posters mentioned the auto choke malfunctioning-did you ask the dealer about the service bulletin regarding the auto choke problems Honda did have?

The surging condition is due to lean(less fuel) carb settings by Honda to satisfy the EPA, the dealer will state this is "normal". It can be corrected by adjusting the jetting (pilot jet), but you should seek out a good mower mechanic for that.

You have /had 2 separate issues- the auto choke , then the carb jetting (dealer wll say it's not a problem, that's your call if it irritates you enough).

Click to expand...

Hi mystik...no, have not talked to the dealer about any TSB's. All I know is that the mower started running poorly this summer, and kept getting progressively worse, and a carb cleanout didn't help. New carb has helped as noted, but the surging is just goofy and not consistent with how it operated prior to this situation. Thanks for your input on the TSB!!! My fear right now is that the operable condition of the mower may be short-lived, so at this point I'm not sure what to think.

Re: HRR2168 mower running terribly....

OklahomaDave said:

Greetings all

Have a problematic HRR2167 mower with a GCV160 engine that has started giving me real performance problems.

This is my third summer with the monster, and each year its given fresh regular unleaded gas and fresh oil. It mows a very simple, relatively flat residential yard, and has worked well until this summer, when I noticed it started to run really rough - black smoke, surging, the works.

First stop - spark plug. Existing plug fairly sooty, new plug installed. Runs - a little better, but not much. Not what I'm accustomed to. Next, air filter: Still virtually pristine - can easily see light through it. No real difference running with the filter completely off. With the presentation of black smoke, I start thinking actual carburetor plugging issues. So I tear it down, and notice the carb looks really clean, but I take it apart and clean it anyway.
No joy.

If anything, it starts to run worse, surging worse, so I run the fuel tank dry and get absolutely new, fresh gas - still no joy.

I'm no mechanic, but I've read at least enough to check out these few things, and with the beast still running rough, I'm out of ideas.

Is there something out of the box I'm just overlooking?

Thanks for any advice.

Click to expand...

Replying to this thread with a changed title to reflect the proper model of my mower. Don't think this will change the original post's title, but worth a shot..

OklahomaDave said:

* Note I said "almost" cured...Welll, the engine starts, and initially runs fine...put it under load with the blade engaged, it runs great and mows like a monster. But....when I disengage the blade clutch to empty the bag, now with the engine warm, the engine repeatedly surges and slows..surges and slows...at about two (?) second intervals. Put it back under load (re-engage the clutch) and it runs fine.

Click to expand...

Double-check all the reinstalled parts (springs, rods, etc.) and confirm they are in the correct holes and orientation. Be sure the two long bolts holding the carb and air cleaner case are snug (vacuum leaks). Be 100% sure all gaskets are installed correctly check for orientation and make sure none are reversed or rotated 180 degrees.

When the engine is at low rpm, remove the air filter and observe the choke plate. Does it open/close with the surge or not? If it does, could be a faulty autochoke, but if not, then the problem lies elsewhere.

Generally, autochoke issues are when the choke plate is stuck OPEN, making a cold engine hard/impossible to start.

K8 mowers with possible autochoke issues are from serial number 8400001~8669999. A defective autochoke on a mower in that range is usually repaired at no charge under warranty.

Find A Honda Dealer

robert@honda said:

Double-check all the reinstalled parts (springs, rods, etc.) and confirm they are in the correct holes and orientation. Be sure the two long bolts holding the carb and air cleaner case are snug (vacuum leaks). Be 100% sure all gaskets are installed correctly check for orientation and make sure none are reversed or rotated 180 degrees.

When the engine is at low rpm, remove the air filter and observe the choke plate. Does it open/close with the surge or not? If it does, could be a faulty autochoke, but if not, then the problem lies elsewhere.

Generally, autochoke issues are when the choke plate is stuck OPEN, making a cold engine hard/impossible to start.

K8 mowers with possible autochoke issues are from serial number 8400001~8669999. A defective autochoke on a mower in that range is usually repaired at no charge under warranty.

Find A Honda Dealer

Click to expand...

Thanks, robert. I appreciate your help. My serial is 8520xxx, so it surely seems in the range for autochoke issues.

My mower has never had issues starting. I will double check all the carb connections tonight and observe the choke plate as you asked and advise accordingly.

robert@honda said:

Double-check all the reinstalled parts (springs, rods, etc.) and confirm they are in the correct holes and orientation. Be sure the two long bolts holding the carb and air cleaner case are snug (vacuum leaks). Be 100% sure all gaskets are installed correctly check for orientation and make sure none are reversed or rotated 180 degrees.

When the engine is at low rpm, remove the air filter and observe the choke plate. Does it open/close with the surge or not? If it does, could be a faulty autochoke, but if not, then the problem lies elsewhere.

Generally, autochoke issues are when the choke plate is stuck OPEN, making a cold engine hard/impossible to start.

K8 mowers with possible autochoke issues are from serial number 8400001~8669999. A defective autochoke on a mower in that range is usually repaired at no charge under warranty.

Find A Honda Dealer

Click to expand...

Robert,

The choke plate is moving with the surging. I did not have enough time or sunlight this evening to double-check the gaskets, but I'll check that tomorrow evening. Is there an exploded parts diagram available that might illustrate the general carb assembly area and those gaskets such that I may *absolutely* confirm their proper orientation?

-David

OklahomaDave said:

Robert,

The choke plate is moving with the surging. I did not have enough time or sunlight this evening to double-check the gaskets, but I'll check that tomorrow evening. Is there an exploded parts diagram available that might illustrate the general carb assembly area and those gaskets such that I may *absolutely* confirm their proper orientation?

-David

Click to expand...

Here's the gaskets; note the holes/orientation on each:



Here's the other mechanicals; ensure the springs/rods are in the correct locations:

robert@honda said:

Here's the gaskets; note the holes/orientation on each:

Here's the other mechanicals; ensure the springs/rods are in the correct locations:

Click to expand...

Perfect, Robert. Thank you so much for taking the time to post these. I'll see if I can't work on it tonight and verify everything.

Best way to check for air leaks is spray carb cleaner all over the gaskets with it running you'll hear the difference if you find one

Everyone, I realize this thread is a bit old, but I wanted to update status on my mower. It has been a roller coaster of frustration.

The local Honda dealer to whom I submitted the mower for warranty repair tried to insist that the carburetor was "full of trash," and I then explained to him that the carburetor was *brand new*, which they could confirm by checking their own sales records. They then tried to tell me it was "old gas," when in reality the gas was *brand new* the day I installed the carburetor - purchased that afternoon - and before they could make the inevitable argument - it was never ethanol.

I'm now being charged $66 for a carburetor overhaul that could not POSSIBLY have been the problem, because the carburetor (which I've discussed here) was brand new; to say nothing of the fact that they didn't even look at the automatic choke, and I'm so angry with the local Honda dealer I can barely even type this message.

Two summers ago, I went out of my way to route my business to a local retailer and not a big box store because (I thought) the local guy would stand behind what he sold, not play a runaround game with a customer. I could have gone to Home Depot down the street and gotten the same treatment.

This dealer may end up getting my $66 because I've got not much choice (although the tech I talked to said he'd talk to the owner), and I realize I individually don't amount to anything in his broader customer base, but I promise it'll be the dead *last* time they get so much as a penny from me.

My estimation is that it is quicker and easier for them to blame gas, then charge the customer, rather than truly inspect the unit and bill Honda for a warranty repair.

If I wanted to write or contact Honda on this, does anyone here have any contact info they could share?

OklahomaDave said:

If I wanted to write or contact Honda on this, does anyone here have any contact info they could share?

Click to expand...

Sorry to hear of the poor experience, Dave. The good news is Honda does have a Customer Relations Department for just this type of situation. You can contact them at 770-497-6400. Have the serial number off the back the mower deck, and of course, details of the repairs and the people who you spoke with at the dealer.

robert@honda said:

Sorry to hear of the poor experience, Dave. The good news is Honda does have a Customer Relations Department for just this type of situation. You can contact them at 770-497-6400. Have the serial number off the back the mower deck, and of course, details of the repairs and the people who you spoke with at the dealer.

Click to expand...

Thanks, Robert.

I was so angry when I posted my previous reply that I forgot to mention the most infuriating part of all:

Five minutes after I got the mower home, it started surging again.

Howdy-

Just an idea, if the brand new carb is not correcting the surge, and assuming the new carb is not defective, then maybe something inside the mechanical governor (flyweights in the crankcase) is binding or broken? What motor oil are you using (viscosity)?

Sounds like a call to Honda or maybe a different dealer would help.

Did you try a new spark plug, is the coil gapped correctly? Is the crankcase breather on the engine block clean and functional? (Dealer should have already checked these).

On my HRB216 my hard starting - surging was the factory pilot jetting just a bit too lean. The carb was clean, it was the factory settings in my case.

Now she's unstoppable:biggrin: