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HRR216 walk behind- hard to pull backwards
#1
N
nbpt100
N
nbpt100
I have a walk behind with Rear Wheel drive that is hard to pull backwards. This has a variable speed pulley drive where the gear box pivots on the axle and tightens or loosens the belt tension to achieve the desired speed. I asume the gear box is a worm as all of this design (Toro, MTD etc.) that I have worked on are. The wheel ratchets are lubed and work as they should. When you pull this model backwards it back drives the gear box. There is no internal one way clutch. Or it appear not to be working. The belt is slack and not impacting this. I assume the gear box needs lubing. IT looks like a job to remove it and tke it apart. Is this normal untill the unit warms up? What am I missing? if anything?
#2
S
slomo
S
slomo
Seems to be normal for this machine. There is a many page post on here about this same topic. Look in the Honda section.
#3
N
nbpt100
N
nbpt100
Thanks, It is a very long thread. over 20 pages and I was not going to read it all. I skimmed through it and it seems the casue fo the problem is the plastic bushings in the rear adjusters. The seals do not work that well and dirt gets in to them. The shafts can rust etc. The adjusters have to be on the same setting too to make sure the shaft is aligned. People have jumped through flaming hoops to try to re engineer the design. Using needle bearings, bronze bearing etc. It appears to be a maintenance issue. The need to be cleaned out and re lubed otherwise the problem keeps coming back. One member made felt seals and that seems to be one the most cost effective and over all effective solutions. Just keep the dirt out. I am glad it is not the gear box.Seems to be normal for this machine. There is a many page post on here about this same topic. Look in the Honda section.
#5
N
nbpt100
N
nbpt100
I removed the transmission and cleaned up the shafts and related hardware.
they were not too rusty. The gear box seemed fine. I changed the oil since I had it out. It is bevel gears in an oil bath of 10w-30.
I lubed it up and reassembled. It helped but the imporvement was not very dramatic. I just think it is a design flaw.
they were not too rusty. The gear box seemed fine. I changed the oil since I had it out. It is bevel gears in an oil bath of 10w-30.
I lubed it up and reassembled. It helped but the imporvement was not very dramatic. I just think it is a design flaw.
#6
B
Briantii
B
Briantii
More difficult to pull backwards is fairly normal. Wheels locking up and tearing up the yard when pulling backwards is not. You are correct that it’s a design flaw.I removed the transmission and cleaned up the shafts and related hardware.
they were not too rusty. The gear box seemed fine. I changed the oil since I had it out. It is bevel gears in an oil bath of 10w-30.
I lubed it up and reassembled. It helped but the imporvement was not very dramatic. I just think it is a design flaw.
#7
sgkent
sgkent
we used to put undersized o-rings on the crankshafts of the highend bicycles we rode near the beach to keep as much sand as possible out of the seals. Dirt and sand has to get past the o-ring to get to the seal. It doesn't stop all of it but it stops enough. Maybe something like that might help with the maintenance. Also try giving it a second at rest before pulling backwards. Forward - rest - backwards, not Forward - Backwards.
#8
A
adam1991
A
adam1991
Clearly a design flaw. Or a bad, short-term business decision that pushed the problem out to the customer after he made the purchase decision based partially on price.
Honda would no doubt say they differ on this; they will tell you, "read your owner's manual. We tell you to take these assemblies apart and clean them every 20 hours" or whatever. Really, Honda?
A year ago I noticed the wheels on my 5 year old Honda not turning like this. I didn't know; I took it into my Honda dealer, a real pro shop, to tell me what was going on. I let this place do yearly cleaning and maintenance on it. They told me the wheels/shafts crudded up, and ended up taking out the transmission. ??????? Even they admitted, they should have been more forward about the additional yearly maintenance on these items. But they weren't; I'm sure they didn't want to tell you that their $100 fee was now $200 because of all of this.
So it took out the transmission. Then they gave me the coup de grace: due to supply chain issues, no replacements were to be had. They had one customer already waiting for one for the last 8 months. So I was originally on the edge of fixing this problem; now I realized I had a FIVE YEAR OLD HONDA MOWER that was JUNK due to bad design and now supply chain issues.
I bought that mower expecting it to be the last mower I ever bought. Honda engine? Check. Composite deck? Check. Honda engineering? Check. Well well, about that last bit...PM me if you want the story about my Odyssey minivan. Funny thing--that, too, is a transmission story. And Honda's behavior and attitude toward me on that is why I swore off Honda automobiles for life. (I went from 3 Hondas in the garage to two VWs and a Chrysler van. Hey, Honda--you do the math on that.)
Anyway, fool me once Honda, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I came to realize that Honda engineering is garbage, be it their cars or their lawnmowers. Or maybe the engineers are held back by the beancounters. Either way, don't buy Honda stuff.
For this season, I bought a Toro battery unit. Composite deck? Check. Toro lawnmower know-how? Check. (Do NOT buy a lawnmower from a tool company. They may know batteries, but they don't have a clue about lawnmowers.). And it turns out that Toro didn't re-invent the wheel; they took their common parts and platforms and all their know-how, removed the gasoline powered spinny thing on top, and simply replaced it with an electric motor spinny thing. They already have great platforms, so this was an easy transition for them. It's FAR easier to teach Toro about batteries than to teach a tool company about lawnmowers.
I came here looking for info and/or discussion on Honda's getting out of the walk behind mower business. I suspect there's more to it than emissions issues. If I'm wrong, then we'll see battery lawnmowers from them. But if I'm right, it's because they gave up on lawnmowers several years ago--as witnessed by genius decisions like this rear wheel stuff--and emissions was a convenient excuse.
Honda would no doubt say they differ on this; they will tell you, "read your owner's manual. We tell you to take these assemblies apart and clean them every 20 hours" or whatever. Really, Honda?
A year ago I noticed the wheels on my 5 year old Honda not turning like this. I didn't know; I took it into my Honda dealer, a real pro shop, to tell me what was going on. I let this place do yearly cleaning and maintenance on it. They told me the wheels/shafts crudded up, and ended up taking out the transmission. ??????? Even they admitted, they should have been more forward about the additional yearly maintenance on these items. But they weren't; I'm sure they didn't want to tell you that their $100 fee was now $200 because of all of this.
So it took out the transmission. Then they gave me the coup de grace: due to supply chain issues, no replacements were to be had. They had one customer already waiting for one for the last 8 months. So I was originally on the edge of fixing this problem; now I realized I had a FIVE YEAR OLD HONDA MOWER that was JUNK due to bad design and now supply chain issues.
I bought that mower expecting it to be the last mower I ever bought. Honda engine? Check. Composite deck? Check. Honda engineering? Check. Well well, about that last bit...PM me if you want the story about my Odyssey minivan. Funny thing--that, too, is a transmission story. And Honda's behavior and attitude toward me on that is why I swore off Honda automobiles for life. (I went from 3 Hondas in the garage to two VWs and a Chrysler van. Hey, Honda--you do the math on that.)
Anyway, fool me once Honda, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I came to realize that Honda engineering is garbage, be it their cars or their lawnmowers. Or maybe the engineers are held back by the beancounters. Either way, don't buy Honda stuff.
For this season, I bought a Toro battery unit. Composite deck? Check. Toro lawnmower know-how? Check. (Do NOT buy a lawnmower from a tool company. They may know batteries, but they don't have a clue about lawnmowers.). And it turns out that Toro didn't re-invent the wheel; they took their common parts and platforms and all their know-how, removed the gasoline powered spinny thing on top, and simply replaced it with an electric motor spinny thing. They already have great platforms, so this was an easy transition for them. It's FAR easier to teach Toro about batteries than to teach a tool company about lawnmowers.
I came here looking for info and/or discussion on Honda's getting out of the walk behind mower business. I suspect there's more to it than emissions issues. If I'm wrong, then we'll see battery lawnmowers from them. But if I'm right, it's because they gave up on lawnmowers several years ago--as witnessed by genius decisions like this rear wheel stuff--and emissions was a convenient excuse.
#9
B
Briantii
B
Briantii
Yeah
Sounds like you had the HRX which doesn’t suffer from this problem nearly as bad as these HRR mowers. The HRX states to clean and grease every 2 years and your shop SHOULD have done that. The real issue is that unlike the HRX, Honda failed to put any dust protection on the wheel side of the adjuster on the HRR models. The HRX has dust seals on both sides. A $0.10 part makes the difference between something that generally lasts with maintenance and something that fails quickly. Sadly, I’m confident your HRX would have been fine if the shop performed the prescribed maintenance.
Regarding Honda cars - I hear ya. They sure aren’t what they once were. With that said I own a BMW, an Audi, a Lexus, and a Honda. The Lexus is the oldest and most reliable - I need to sell it as I don’t drive it anymore. The BMW is 2nd oldest and is pretty rock solid, the Honda is 10 years old and has had more NVH issues than I’d have expected, has needed a CV axle and a transmission pressure switch but hasn’t cost me much at all - $500 in repairs over 10 years maybe? The Audi is by far the newest and while it’s never left me stranded or anything major… I certainly have a good relationship with my dealer who keeps fixing stuff under warranty. I still love it, but wow… Regarding the right balance of quality and driving characteristics I think BMW is the closest fit for me.
Hope the Toro works out well for you. Supposedly Toros cut great. I always wanted one of the old units with the Suzuki engine and cast aluminum decks.
Clearly a design flaw. Or a bad, short-term business decision that pushed the problem out to the customer after he made the purchase decision based partially on price.
Honda would no doubt say they differ on this; they will tell you, "read your owner's manual. We tell you to take these assemblies apart and clean them every 20 hours" or whatever. Really, Honda?
A year ago I noticed the wheels on my 5 year old Honda not turning like this. I didn't know; I took it into my Honda dealer, a real pro shop, to tell me what was going on. I let this place do yearly cleaning and maintenance on it. They told me the wheels/shafts crudded up, and ended up taking out the transmission. ??????? Even they admitted, they should have been more forward about the additional yearly maintenance on these items. But they weren't; I'm sure they didn't want to tell you that their $100 fee was now $200 because of all of this.
So it took out the transmission. Then they gave me the coup de grace: due to supply chain issues, no replacements were to be had. They had one customer already waiting for one for the last 8 months. So I was originally on the edge of fixing this problem; now I realized I had a FIVE YEAR OLD HONDA MOWER that was JUNK due to bad design and now supply chain issues.
I bought that mower expecting it to be the last mower I ever bought. Honda engine? Check. Composite deck? Check. Honda engineering? Check. Well well, about that last bit...PM me if you want the story about my Odyssey minivan. Funny thing--that, too, is a transmission story. And Honda's behavior and attitude toward me on that is why I swore off Honda automobiles for life. (I went from 3 Hondas in the garage to two VWs and a Chrysler van. Hey, Honda--you do the math on that.)
Anyway, fool me once Honda, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I came to realize that Honda engineering is garbage, be it their cars or their lawnmowers. Or maybe the engineers are held back by the beancounters. Either way, don't buy Honda stuff.
For this season, I bought a Toro battery unit. Composite deck? Check. Toro lawnmower know-how? Check. (Do NOT buy a lawnmower from a tool company. They may know batteries, but they don't have a clue about lawnmowers.). And it turns out that Toro didn't re-invent the wheel; they took their common parts and platforms and all their know-how, removed the gasoline powered spinny thing on top, and simply replaced it with an electric motor spinny thing. They already have great platforms, so this was an easy transition for them. It's FAR easier to teach Toro about batteries than to teach a tool company about lawnmowers.
I came here looking for info and/or discussion on Honda's getting out of the walk behind mower business. I suspect there's more to it than emissions issues. If I'm wrong, then we'll see battery lawnmowers from them. But if I'm right, it's because they gave up on lawnmowers several years ago--as witnessed by genius decisions like this rear wheel stuff--and emissions was a convenient excuse.
Sounds like you had the HRX which doesn’t suffer from this problem nearly as bad as these HRR mowers. The HRX states to clean and grease every 2 years and your shop SHOULD have done that. The real issue is that unlike the HRX, Honda failed to put any dust protection on the wheel side of the adjuster on the HRR models. The HRX has dust seals on both sides. A $0.10 part makes the difference between something that generally lasts with maintenance and something that fails quickly. Sadly, I’m confident your HRX would have been fine if the shop performed the prescribed maintenance.
Regarding Honda cars - I hear ya. They sure aren’t what they once were. With that said I own a BMW, an Audi, a Lexus, and a Honda. The Lexus is the oldest and most reliable - I need to sell it as I don’t drive it anymore. The BMW is 2nd oldest and is pretty rock solid, the Honda is 10 years old and has had more NVH issues than I’d have expected, has needed a CV axle and a transmission pressure switch but hasn’t cost me much at all - $500 in repairs over 10 years maybe? The Audi is by far the newest and while it’s never left me stranded or anything major… I certainly have a good relationship with my dealer who keeps fixing stuff under warranty. I still love it, but wow… Regarding the right balance of quality and driving characteristics I think BMW is the closest fit for me.
Hope the Toro works out well for you. Supposedly Toros cut great. I always wanted one of the old units with the Suzuki engine and cast aluminum decks.
#10
A
adam1991
Toros do cut great, from what I can tell. I will say, all the battery electric manufacturers are using "efficiency" blades (Toro calls it the "economy" blade) out of the box--that is, "it spins and has sharp edges but the goal is longer battery life over cut quality". That's the only blade Ryobi offered, hence the stragglers and mohawks. Toro at least gives you the "performance" blade in the box, which they say gives better cut quality. I simply installed that from the beginning, and it works very well.
As for cars...well, it seems my 2017 VW GTI is a great car. It's so great, when a used 2018 came available right after some numbnuts totalled my daughter's car, I grabbed it (it's still under The People's Warranty, even). No complaints whatsoever across two VW cars and 5 years.
Ever since MY1998, Honda cars have been no better than anything else--and maybe worse. Transmissions, hybrid systems (remember the 2005 Civic Hybrid and the software flash that basically de-powered the battery so that it would last the warranty period? drivers paid all that money extra and ended up with a car that got no better mileage than the gas model), Variable Cylinder Management that got them a little bit more on the EPA test in exchange for pushing the burned out cylinder problems to the end users, gasoline in the oil on the 1.5 turbo motors...The American Honda Motor Mfg Corp. of the 1980s and 1990s has been gone for the last almost 25 years.
And now lawnmowers? Wow.
A
adam1991
thanks. Yes, I had an HRX.Yeah
Sounds like you had the HRX which doesn’t suffer from this problem nearly as bad as these HRR mowers. The HRX states to clean and grease every 2 years and your shop SHOULD have done that. The real issue is that unlike the HRX, Honda failed to put any dust protection on the wheel side of the adjuster on the HRR models. The HRX has dust seals on both sides. A $0.10 part makes the difference between something that generally lasts with maintenance and something that fails quickly. Sadly, I’m confident your HRX would have been fine if the shop performed the prescribed maintenance.
Regarding Honda cars - I hear ya. They sure aren’t what they once were. With that said I own a BMW, an Audi, a Lexus, and a Honda. The Lexus is the oldest and most reliable - I need to sell it as I don’t drive it anymore. The BMW is 2nd oldest and is pretty rock solid, the Honda is 10 years old and has had more NVH issues than I’d have expected, has needed a CV axle and a transmission pressure switch but hasn’t cost me much at all - $500 in repairs over 10 years maybe? The Audi is by far the newest and while it’s never left me stranded or anything major… I certainly have a good relationship with my dealer who keeps fixing stuff under warranty. I still love it, but wow… Regarding the right balance of quality and driving characteristics I think BMW is the closest fit for me.
Hope the Toro works out well for you. Supposedly Toros cut great. I always wanted one of the old units with the Suzuki engine and cast aluminum decks.
Toros do cut great, from what I can tell. I will say, all the battery electric manufacturers are using "efficiency" blades (Toro calls it the "economy" blade) out of the box--that is, "it spins and has sharp edges but the goal is longer battery life over cut quality". That's the only blade Ryobi offered, hence the stragglers and mohawks. Toro at least gives you the "performance" blade in the box, which they say gives better cut quality. I simply installed that from the beginning, and it works very well.
As for cars...well, it seems my 2017 VW GTI is a great car. It's so great, when a used 2018 came available right after some numbnuts totalled my daughter's car, I grabbed it (it's still under The People's Warranty, even). No complaints whatsoever across two VW cars and 5 years.
Ever since MY1998, Honda cars have been no better than anything else--and maybe worse. Transmissions, hybrid systems (remember the 2005 Civic Hybrid and the software flash that basically de-powered the battery so that it would last the warranty period? drivers paid all that money extra and ended up with a car that got no better mileage than the gas model), Variable Cylinder Management that got them a little bit more on the EPA test in exchange for pushing the burned out cylinder problems to the end users, gasoline in the oil on the 1.5 turbo motors...The American Honda Motor Mfg Corp. of the 1980s and 1990s has been gone for the last almost 25 years.
And now lawnmowers? Wow.
#11
B
Briantii
B
Briantii
Yep, ours has VCM. Not a fan at all. Thankfully there is a disabler now.thanks. Yes, I had an HRX.
Toros do cut great, from what I can tell. I will say, all the battery electric manufacturers are using "efficiency" blades (Toro calls it the "economy" blade) out of the box--that is, "it spins and has sharp edges but the goal is longer battery life over cut quality". That's the only blade Ryobi offered, hence the stragglers and mohawks. Toro at least gives you the "performance" blade in the box, which they say gives better cut quality. I simply installed that from the beginning, and it works very well.
As for cars...well, it seems my 2017 VW GTI is a great car. It's so great, when a used 2018 came available right after some numbnuts totalled my daughter's car, I grabbed it (it's still under The People's Warranty, even). No complaints whatsoever across two VW cars and 5 years.
Ever since MY1998, Honda cars have been no better than anything else--and maybe worse. Transmissions, hybrid systems (remember the 2005 Civic Hybrid and the software flash that basically de-powered the battery so that it would last the warranty period? drivers paid all that money extra and ended up with a car that got no better mileage than the gas model), Variable Cylinder Management that got them a little bit more on the EPA test in exchange for pushing the burned out cylinder problems to the end users, gasoline in the oil on the 1.5 turbo motors...The American Honda Motor Mfg Corp. of the 1980s and 1990s has been gone for the last almost 25 years.
And now lawnmowers? Wow.
#12
A
adam1991
I knew to do this because back in 2007 or so I knew a guy who had bought the all-new Accord but griped endlessly about having to go back because of a cylinder burning up. He got rid of it. Later on the whole VCM puzzle came to light to the general public and I put 2 and 2 together.
A
adam1991
yes, back in 2016 when a friend sold us his 2007 Odyssey fully loaded--first year with the VCM--I immediately got the disabler. Worked fantastic, easy to install, easy to tune.Yep, ours has VCM. Not a fan at all. Thankfully there is a disabler now.
I knew to do this because back in 2007 or so I knew a guy who had bought the all-new Accord but griped endlessly about having to go back because of a cylinder burning up. He got rid of it. Later on the whole VCM puzzle came to light to the general public and I put 2 and 2 together.