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Honda mower engine occasionally slows, shakes, & smokes on start-up

Mar 4, 2014#1

MowerMark

RECENT THREAD: http://www.lawnmowerforum.com/small...allation-honda-mower-few-other-questions.html

This abnormality hasn't happened in there weeks, but used to happen half the time on start-up, but never when the engine is hot: The engine starts with one pull, but runs at 10-25% speed, shakes, is louder, and the exhaust spits out smoke. I then turn off the engine, restart it, and if the problem recurs, repeat the sequence. After one to five of the these sequences, the problem goes away? the engine speeds up, and there's no visible exhaust. I called a local mower shop and the man said "your automatic choke must be sticking".

This problem has not recurred in the past few weeks, but thought I'd still post about it here to see:

1. What is causing this ?
2. Why doesn't it occur every time ?
3. Why does it seem the problem has gone away ?
4. Is damage being done when the engine malfunctions like this ?
5. The mower is still under warranty. Should it be submitted for repair at a time when the problem is not occurring ?
6. Is this issue something a simple homeowner could diagnose or treat ?

Mar 4, 2014#2

P

PhilsSmallEngine

MowerMark said:
1. What is causing this ?

The autochoke is most likely stuck. Jets could also be clogged a bit. The pro was correct as your mower exhibits the telltale problem with self priming autochoke and semi-autochoke engines and ethanol fuel.

MowerMark said:
2. Why doesn't it occur every time ?

The fuel you have in the system will slowly eat at the varnish and the vibration of the motor may unstick the float and needle until it glues back up

MowerMark said:
3. Why does it seem the problem has gone away ?

See number 2

MowerMark said:
4. Is damage being done when the engine malfunctions like this ?

You will consume more fuel, you will have poor power, you can flood the carb and destroy your air filter. The last isn't common, but I've seen it.

MowerMark said:
5. The mower is still under warranty. Should it be submitted for repair at a time when the problem is not occurring ?

You can, but you'll be out of a mower for 2+ weeks and get ready for Honda to fight you over covering the cost as this is usually your fault, not theirs. This is something you can fix yourself in about 15 minutes at the cost of some carb cleaner you should already have. Youtube has tons of great vids on Honda 160/190 carb cleaning.

MowerMark said:
6. Is this issue something a simple homeowner could diagnose or treat ?

See number 5. Also be sure to use high quality, minimal ethanol fuel and make sure you treat it with a marine grade fuel stabilizer ideally. Use Honda's shutoff valve if you don't plan to use it for a couple of weeks, there is a reason they put it on there. Fogging the carb/intake/engine at the end of the season will also minimize this problem with autochoke style carbs. The way you store the engine has a big impact on reliability later.

Mar 4, 2014#3

exotion

Mine also does this in the front of the plastic air housing you'll see a little notch while its running and smoking and lacking power I use my pinky reach in there and just move the choke thing that controls the butterfly and un sticks it solves the problem in the field spray some wd40 will last rest of day.

Solution clean the machine more thoroughly and more often

Mar 4, 2014#4

MowerMark

Few more questions

PhilsSmallEngine said:
The autochoke is most likely stuck. Jets could also be clogged a bit. The pro was correct as your mower exhibits the telltale problem with self priming autochoke and semi-autochoke engines and ethanol fuel.

The fuel you have in the system will slowly eat at the varnish and the vibration of the motor may unstick the float and needle until it glues back up

See number 2

You will consume more fuel, you will have poor power, you can flood the carb and destroy your air filter. The last isn't common, but I've seen it.

You can, but you'll be out of a mower for 2+ weeks and get ready for Honda to fight you over covering the cost as this is usually your fault, not theirs. This is something you can fix yourself in about 15 minutes at the cost of some carb cleaner you should already have. Youtube has tons of great vids on Honda 160/190 carb cleaning.

See number 5. Also be sure to use high quality, minimal ethanol fuel and make sure you treat it with a marine grade fuel stabilizer ideally. Use Honda's shutoff valve if you don't plan to use it for a couple of weeks, there is a reason they put it on there. Fogging the carb/intake/engine at the end of the season will also minimize this problem with autochoke style carbs. The way you store the engine has a big impact on reliability later.

Thank you for such an excellent comprehensive reply.

Okay,

1. How do I remedy this myself using a carb cleaner ?
2. Which brand ?
3. How to use it ? Is there a youtube.com link for my model ?
4. Why is the shut off valve important ? When should it be turned off ?
5. What does it mean to "fog the carb/intake/engine and how is it done ?
6. Why would Honda assert this is my fault ? How did I cause this malfunction ?
7. "Store" the engine ? How is that done ?

Mar 4, 2014#5

MowerMark

exotion said:
Mine also does this in the front of the plastic air housing you'll see a little notch while its running and smoking and lacking power I use my pinky reach in there and just move the choke thing that controls the butterfly and un sticks it solves the problem in the field spray some wd40 will last rest of day.

Solution clean the machine more thoroughly and more often

Wonder if my model mower has this notch so that I can try your trick. My locksmith friends tell me that WD-40 is the third best lubricant (at least for locks). They strongly prefer #1, TriFlow, and second choice, LPS.

Why doesn't lubrication of this area solved the problem indefinitely ?

Perhaps Mr. Honda can chime in here and tell us more about the choke and sticky linkage.

Mar 4, 2014#6

exotion

It just gets dirty wd40 is the best because if it gets in your carb it'll burn triflow has stuff that won't burn... I just clean the area out frequently lube doesn't actually help just sprays the dirt off

Mar 4, 2014#7

MowerMark

exotion said:
It just gets dirty wd40 is the best because if it gets in your carb it'll burn triflow has stuff that won't burn... I just clean the area out frequently lube doesn't actually help just sprays the dirt off

Having trouble with your punctuation or absence of punctuation. You mean the BLOWING of a spray helps this sticking and not the lubrication ?

Mar 4, 2014#8

exotion

MowerMark said:
Having trouble with your punctuation or absence of punctuation. You mean the BLOWING of a spray helps this sticking and not the lubrication ?

New phone...

Mar 5, 2014#9

robert@honda

*If* the problems is indeed a sticking choke, and *if* the reason is because the choke or parts of it are defective, Honda would normally cover the cost of repairs on a unit that is under warranty.

Now *if* the sticking choke is due to grass clippings, debris, or some other external reason, that's not really a factory defect, so warranty would probably not apply.

Best solution is simply to get the mower to a dealer for a full inspection and evaluation. Be sure to communicate your desire with the dealer up front how you want to handle any repairs, e.g., only if covered under warranty or go ahead and repair even if not covered under warranty. Do this BEFORE you authorize them to do any billable work so there's no misunderstanding. Most shops will provide a free or low-cost estimate, as they want your business, warranty or not.

Mar 5, 2014#10

MowerMark

robert@honda said:
*If* the problems is indeed a sticking choke, and *if* the reason is because the choke or parts of it are defective, Honda would normally cover the cost of repairs on a unit that is under warranty.

Now *if* the sticking choke is due to grass clippings, debris, or some other external reason, that's not really a factory defect, so warranty would probably not apply.

Best solution is simply to get the mower to a dealer for a full inspection and evaluation. Be sure to communicate your desire with the dealer up front how you want to handle any repairs, e.g., only if covered under warranty or go ahead and repair even if not covered under warranty. Do this BEFORE you authorize them to do any billable work so there's no misunderstanding. Most shops will provide a free or low-cost estimate, as they want your business, warranty or not.

How does one make certain the area is clean ? Where is this "area" ? How does on know it's a sticky quote before bring it to a dealer ?

Mar 5, 2014#11

robert@honda

MowerMark said:
How does one make certain the area is clean ? Where is this "area" ? How does on know it's a sticky choke before bring it to a dealer ?

Here's a page from the shop manual on how to troubleshoot the ACS (automatic choke system).

You can get a full (177 lavishly illustrated pages) paper shop manual on Amazon or eBay. Link: Honda HRR2167VKA Shop Manual

Mar 5, 2014#12

MowerMark

Robert, you are awesome but this looks intimidating for my feeble mind. Will study it later. Is disassembly required ? Will trying any of this void the warranty ? Do you make house calls ?

Mar 5, 2014#13

P

PhilsSmallEngine

WD40 is ideal and so is Castrol spray lubricant. They aren't the best lubricants, but they clean parts and completely burn off. As long as you see a warning that they're highly flammable (the more warnings the better), they usually burn completely. I like the Briggs & Stratton 100041 carburetor cleaner as it seems to be a bit more gentile with plastics and rubber seals than something like Gumout. It also attacks varnish very quickly. The B&S can also be used as a cleaner for the linkages, but don't use it on a warm engine.

Follow Honda's specifications for short term and seasonal storage of your equipment. Let your manual be your guide. They didn't write it for themselves. It isn't even in broken English anymore. The only thing they do not specify is fogging the carburetor/intake/engine for seasonal storage. That is an old trick for storing hotrods and I've used it quite successfully with my Tecumseh. I bet I'm the only one who has a 25 year old Tecumseh that gets used every year and hasn't had the carburetor taken apart further than pulling the main jet (and removing the chunks of debris). I may clean it because my fuel usage was a bit high last year compared to years prior. Seafoam, Amsoil, doesn't matter. It's the same basic stuff and ignore the promises they put on the can. You just need it to help prevent the carb from get gummed up and a little oil into your engine. The instructions are on the can and it's really easy to do. You can find Seafoam fogger in most auto stores or you can read about it on their site.

The shots from the tech manual is top flight. If I remember correctly, you only need a 10mm wrench or socket to get the airbox off and get to the carb and its linkages easily. I think it's 2 10mm bolts and 1 10mm nut at the bottom of the box.

Mar 5, 2014#14

MowerMark

PhilsSmallEngine said:
WD40 is ideal and so is Castrol spray lubricant. They aren't the best lubricants, but they clean parts and completely burn off. As long as you see a warning that they're highly flammable (the more warnings the better), they usually burn completely. I like the Briggs & Stratton 100041 carburetor cleaner as it seems to be a bit more gentile with plastics and rubber seals than something like Gumout. It also attacks varnish very quickly. The B&S can also be used as a cleaner for the linkages, but don't use it on a warm engine.

Follow Honda's specifications for short term and seasonal storage of your equipment. Let your manual be your guide. They didn't write it for themselves. It isn't even in broken English anymore. The only thing they do not specify is fogging the carburetor/intake/engine for seasonal storage. That is an old trick for storing hotrods and I've used it quite successfully with my Tecumseh. I bet I'm the only one who has a 25 year old Tecumseh that gets used every year and hasn't had the carburetor taken apart further than pulling the main jet (and removing the chunks of debris). I may clean it because my fuel usage was a bit high last year compared to years prior. Seafoam, Amsoil, doesn't matter. It's the same basic stuff and ignore the promises they put on the can. You just need it to help prevent the carb from get gummed up and a little oil into your engine. The instructions are on the can and it's really easy to do. You can find Seafoam fogger in most auto stores or you can read about it on their site.

The shots from the tech manual is top flight. If I remember correctly, you only need a 10mm wrench or socket to get the airbox off and get to the carb and its linkages easily. I think it's 2 10mm bolts and 1 10mm nut at the bottom of the box.

You are awesome, and write well. Will my seven year warranty be voided by doing the above ?

Mar 5, 2014#15

robert@honda

MowerMark said:
Robert, you are awesome but this looks intimidating for my feeble mind. Will study it later. Is disassembly required ? Will trying any of this void the warranty ? Do you make house calls ?

With some mechanical skill, it is straightforward job. Some basic hand tools (metric) and the shop manual will take you far, even lacking experience. Removal of the air cleaner is necessary, but take your time and follow the procedures and you'll do just fine.

Doing your own service work will NOT void the warranty. However, let's say you change the oil in the mower, but don't put enough back when refilling, and the engine seizes up from a lack of oil. Such damage is not a factory defect, and repairs to the engine would not be covered under warranty. Further, let's say you did the oil fill wrong, and a wheel adjuster breaks. There's no likely reason the adjuster broke because of the incorrect oil fill, so Honda would probably pay under warranty to repair the adjuster.

Some Honda dealers do provide on-location service, but for a fee. Contact and discuss with your local dealer for details.

Mar 5, 2014#16

MowerMark

robert@honda said:
With some mechanical skill, it is straightforward job. Some basic hand tools (metric) and the shop manual will take you far, even lacking experience. Removal of the air cleaner is necessary, but take your time and follow the procedures and you'll do just fine.

Doing your own service work will NOT void the warranty. However, let's say you change the oil in the mower, but don't put enough back when refilling, and the engine seizes up from a lack of oil. Such damage is not a factory defect, and repairs to the engine would not be covered under warranty. Further, let's say you did the oil fill wrong, and a wheel adjuster breaks. There's no likely reason the adjuster broke because of the incorrect oil fill, so Honda would probably pay under warranty to repair the adjuster.

Some Honda dealers do provide on-location service, but for a fee. Contact and discuss with your local dealer for details.

I'd be delighted to pay for a house call for warranty service. So does one just call any and all authorized Honda service places ? Or do you have a listing of these?

Mar 5, 2014#17

exotion

That's the way to go. I never registered my Honda prolly won't I just do my own work

Mar 5, 2014#18

robert@honda

MowerMark said:
I'd be delighted to pay for a house call for warranty service. So does one just call any and all authorized Honda service places ? Or do you have a listing of these?

Not all dealers, in fact, just a few, offer on-site service. With spring (mowing season) rapidly approaching, it may be very difficult to have somebody come out, and you'd have a much easier, faster and less costly time by taking the mower to a dealer. Note that warranty does NOT cover transits of equipment or technicians. Honda's warranty explicitly requires you to bring the mower to the dealer, but some dealers may come to you for a fee ($$$). Use this link and enter your ZIP code to find dealers in your area:

Find A Honda Dealer

Mar 5, 2014#19

MowerMark

exotion said:
That's the way to go. I never registered my Honda prolly won't I just do my own work

By purchasing at Home Depot and paying a small fee and registering @ Honda, my mower has a SEVEN YEAR warranty. Yippeee ! Just would like to pay extra to have a skilled person repair it at my home or at least pick up and bring back the mower when repairs needed.

May 4, 2014#20

MowerMark

As follow-up, I did nothing and the problem disappeared within two weeks. Strange, since it was occurring quite often for months. This Honda lawnmower is so impressive. It always starts with just one pull.

May 4, 2014#21

exotion

I've put well over 1000 hrs on my hrr.. still starts one pull. Regular maintenance and the only two parts I've had to replace was my drive belt. And a small gear in my left rear tire. Take care of it it'll take care of you. Have you upgraded to microcut blades yet?

May 4, 2014#22

MowerMark

exotion said:
I've put well over 1000 hrs on my hrr.. still starts one pull. Regular maintenance and the only two parts I've had to replace was my drive belt. And a small gear in my left rear tire. Take care of it it'll take care of you. Have you upgraded to microcut blades yet?

Thank you for asking.

Yes, I did change to the Microcut blades as inferred in this post: http://www.lawnmowerforum.com/small...ion-honda-mower-few-other-questions-6.html#53

Doing a comparison to the Quad blades. Too early to give an opinion on their performance.

May 7, 2014#23

grumpygrizzly

With the description of your original subject line "Honda mower engine occasionally slows, shakes, & smokes on start-up " I thought you were talking about me when I wake up in the morning..

Honda does make some fine motors in general. I've got 7.5 motorcycles and they're all Hondas.. From a '68 Honda Trail 90 to an 83 Honda Gold Wing Aspencade.

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