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Early Style Auto-Choke for B&S 190cc Engine?

#1

D@ve

D@ve

I inherited a 2008 (according to the bar code) Toro Recycler 675 190cc walk behind mower.
There is no model ID plate on it that I can find anywhere. Definitely nothing above the muffler.
The butterfly valve in the carb is fully open, even when cold.
This engine does not have a thermostat / arm mounted behind the muffler like all the videos I've seen while researching this.
The wire from the carb runs back to an arm mounted on the back of the engine that doesn't seem to have any thermostatic control.
Anybody have an idea how to remedy this and / or find a parts list for this engine / carb?
I've spent hours trying to find info on this design and have had no luck.
carb 1.jpgcarb 2.jpg


#2

R

Rivets

This manual should answer most of your questions. Post back if you have more questions. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6NaqjIxWV1ycG8wd0s3Z2Q2X00/view


#3

H

heamicdan

this is what i have---have to use a shot of gas in carb ---everyone keeps telling me it has the thermostat but it does not! no signs of it anywhere----been looking to see if there is a special carb---mine has run perfect for years and i like it---just now this year it will not autochoke


#4

R

Rivets

There is no choke on the carb pictured. More than likely you should have a primer built into the air filter backing.


#5

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

that carburetor does not have the auto choke. what you're seeing is the governor arm, governor link, and throttle shaft. which controls engine speed. that carburetor goes with the a primer type airbox ( either 593942 or 795259 depending on the date code)
It appears to be a 12000 series Quantum, but your specific engine model number will be stamped on the metal blower housing above the spark plug or muffler.

how the primer works is when you press the bulb, it forces air through channel made into the back of the airbox, that channel ends where there is a hole in the carb that goes into the bowl, air being forced into the bowl forces fuel out of the main jet and into the intake. sometimes that air box will warp and the gasket will not seal, letting the air out, instead of going to the carb. sometimes you can use 2 of the gaskets to fix it.
there is also a little screen in the airbox right behind the primer bulb, in the channel that can get clogged with dust and cause the primer to not work properly.

picture2carb.jpg like these, 1621276855068.png


#6

H

heamicdan

Scrubcadet10 said:
that carburetor does not have the auto choke. what you're seeing is the governor arm, governor link, and throttle shaft. which controls engine speed. that carburetor goes with the a primer type airbox ( either 593942 or 795259 depending on the date code)
It appears to be a 12000 series Quantum, but your specific engine model number will be stamped on the metal blower housing above the spark plug or muffler.

how the primer works is when you press the bulb, it forces air through channel made into the back of the airbox, that channel ends where there is a hole in the carb that goes into the bowl, air being forced into the bowl forces fuel out of the main jet and into the intake. sometimes that air box will warp and the gasket will not seal, letting the air out, instead of going to the carb. sometimes you can use 2 of the gaskets to fix it.
there is also a little screen in the airbox right behind the primer bulb, in the channel that can get clogged with dust and cause the primer to not work properly.

View attachment 56608 like these, View attachment 56609
Click to expand...
if its like mine it has no primer anywhere ----no auto choke --- no manual choke no manual throttle no nothing lol


#7

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

^ have yet to see one like that.


#8

R

Rivets

I’ve seen it a couple of times. Only when a DIY guy would replace the carb with one that is not made for that particular engine, but it did have a throttle. If you have a carb with no choke or throttle I would really like to see it, as that would go against everything I know about and taught my students over the last 50 years. There is one exception, that is what was called a carb on the very old “hit and miss” engines. Heamicdan, would you please post some pictures so we all can learn something today?


#9

D@ve

D@ve

Wow, thanks for all the responses! As a newb to this forum I was hoping for 1 or 2 responses, especially on what I thought was a pretty obscure issue. In regards to some of your answers, my mower does have a primer bulb, which unfortunately seems to have little effect during cold starts, although I'll give that more attention. I do know that a shot of starter fluid into the carb caused it to fire right up. Once it's warm it starts on the first or second pull. I just don't understand why the linkage to the butterfly valve currently causes it to be fully open when cold. The mower has no manual throttle or choke controls. Seems like it should either be a manual operation or controlled be a thermostat. Thanks again.


#10

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

D@ve said:
Wow, thanks for all the responses! As a newb to this forum I was hoping for 1 or 2 responses, especially on what I thought was a pretty obscure issue. In regards to some of your answers, my mower does have a primer bulb, which unfortunately seems to have little effect during cold starts, although I'll give that more attention. I do know that a shot of starter fluid into the carb caused it to fire right up. Once it's warm it starts on the first or second pull. I just don't understand why the linkage to the butterfly valve currently causes it to be fully open when cold. The mower has no manual throttle or choke controls. Seems like it should either be a manual operation or controlled be a thermostat. Thanks again.
Click to expand...
the governor sits at wide open when off, and when the engine starts, centrifugal force acts on the flyweights on the governor gear inside the engine, which in turn moves the governor arm and throttle to the governed RPM (and can be changed by increasing tension on the governor spring, the governor tries to slow the engine down, while increasing tension on the governor spring increases RPM), generally about 3200 or 3400 rpm. depends on the application. all of those engines like that (that i've seen) sit at WOT when not running.



you can see the governor spring in your picture you attached. you can increase tension on it and that will increase the RPM's.
the only thing that will be affected by a thermostat is the auto choke, IF you had an autochoke system, which you don't.
an autochoke carb will have 2 shafts in it. throttle, which is closest to the engine, and choke shaft, which is closest to the air cleaner.


#11

D@ve

D@ve

Scrubcadet10 said:
the governor sits at wide open when off, and when the engine starts, centrifugal force acts on the flyweights on the governor gear inside the engine, which in turn moves the governor arm and throttle to the governed RPM, generally about 3200 or 3400 rpm. depends on the application. all of those engines like that (that i've seen) sit at WOT when not running.

Click to expand...
Thanks for the clarification sir. I will clean out the various organics around the linkage and lube them up to see if that doesn't help the situation.


#12

H

heamicdan

Scrubcadet10 said:
^ have yet to see one like that.
Click to expand...
i will
get pics tpmorrow


#13

S

slomo

D@ve said:
Thanks for the clarification sir. I will clean out the various organics around the linkage and lube them up to see if that doesn't help the situation.
Click to expand...
Do not lube anything on a carb. Oil attracts dirt, grit, grass and the like. Take a paint brush. Dust off the carb, air filter and housing and all other areas after mowing. DIRT is the #1 killer in small engines.

slomo


#14

S

slomo

Like others have said, that came with a primer. You are missing the air filter too, just saying. The air filter housing has the primer in it. To verify the primer is working proper, remove air filter. Push the primer. You should see a small squirt of fuel jumping up vertically from the bottom center of the carb throat. If you see nothing, primer is not working. Like stated before, might take 2 gaskets to fix your warped over torqued housing. Those screws are not lug nuts. Most people use impact guns on those tiny screws. All you need is your weak hand and open fingers holding a ratchet for proper torque.

slomo


#15

D@ve

D@ve

slomo said:
Like others have said, that came with a primer. You are missing the air filter too, just saying. The air filter housing has the primer in it. To verify the primer is working proper, remove air filter. Push the primer. You should see a small squirt of fuel jumping up vertically from the bottom center of the carb throat. If you see nothing, primer is not working. Like stated before, might take 2 gaskets to fix your warped over torqued housing. Those screws are not lug nuts. Most people use impact guns on those tiny screws. All you need is your weak hand and open fingers holding a ratchet for proper torque.

slomo
Click to expand...
I have the airbox with primer and the air filter. I removed them to sort this out. I'll definitely test out the primer before reassembling everything. Thanks for the info!


#16

H

heamicdan

Rivets said:
I’ve seen it a couple of times. Only when a DIY guy would replace the carb with one that is not made for that particular engine, but it did have a throttle. If you have a carb with no choke or throttle I would really like to see it, as that would go against everything I know about and taught my students over the last 50 years. There is one exception, that is what was called a carb on the very old “hit and miss” engines. Heamicdan, would you please post some pictures so we all can learn something today?
Click to expand...
Rivets said:
I’ve seen it a couple of times. Only when a DIY guy would replace the carb with one that is not made for that particular engine, but it did have a throttle. If you have a carb with no choke or throttle I would really like to see it, as that would go against everything I know about and taught my students over the last 50 years. There is one exception, that is what was called a carb on the very old “hit and miss” engines. Heamicdan, would you please post some pictures so we all can learn something today?
Click to expand...
keeps telling me file is too large ---anyway i have the shaft for air vane to hook to-which would go to thermostat but neither was ever on this mower and it ran perfect for years


#17

Richie F

Richie F

The Briggs serial number should be on the fan blower housing, either on a bent tab or on the housing in another location.


#18

SydSara1996

SydSara1996

D@ve said:
Wow, thanks for all the responses! As a newb to this forum I was hoping for 1 or 2 responses, especially on what I thought was a pretty obscure issue. In regards to some of your answers, my mower does have a primer bulb, which unfortunately seems to have little effect during cold starts, although I'll give that more attention. I do know that a shot of starter fluid into the carb caused it to fire right up. Once it's warm it starts on the first or second pull. I just don't understand why the linkage to the butterfly valve currently causes it to be fully open when cold. The mower has no manual throttle or choke controls. Seems like it should either be a manual operation or controlled be a thermostat. Thanks again.
Click to expand...
Just a little experienced advice. Keep starting fluid [ether] away from all small engines. It's a bomb in a can. You can destroy that little engine in a split second. Actually ALL gas engines......spark ignited engines. The only safe usage of ether is diesel engines. I know it mentions gas engines on the label, but until you've seen the entire oil pan blown off a commercial truck's gas engine, like I have, you'll never use it again. The safest thing to use is carb & choke cleaner spray or brake kleen spray. Just make sure it's not the "non-flammable" version {;-)


#19

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

The non flammable won't ignite via spark in the engine... or at least that's been my experience after accidentally buying the non flammable. i've just started using the house brand O'rielly's or Advance auto.
1621444514672.png


#20

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

I have used starting fluid, ether, for 40 years working on small engines. Probably used 20 to 30 cans of it. Never blown one up or seized one. The one place i won't use it is a diesel engine. If somebody put enough in a truck engine to blow the oil pan off i wouldn't let them work on a lawnmower. I did remove a lot of arm hair with starting fluid in my 63 Galaxie in high school.


#21

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

Hammermechanicman said:
I have used starting fluid, ether, for 40 years working on small engines. Probably used 20 to 30 cans of it. Never blown one up or seized one. The one place i won't use it is a diesel engine. If somebody put enough in a truck engine to blow the oil pan off i wouldn't let them work on a lawnmower. I did remove a lot of arm hair with starting fluid in my 63 Galaxie in high school.
Click to expand...
ever seated a tire bead with it?
i haven't yet.


#22

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

Scrubcadet10 said:
ever seated a tire bead with it?
i haven't yet.
Click to expand...
Well...... yes i have as a matter of fact and due to a slight miscalculation resulting in a sizeable loss of hair on my arm and the back of my head i have purchased an air blast tire bead seater. $100 very well spent!


#23

R

Ranamow

Just a note on doubling up the intake gasket... It doesn't work!
What I do, is clean the plastic housing really good, put the gasket on and spread a little bit of rtv along the bottom edge where the air channel runs. Let it dry, and you're good to go.


#24

D@ve

D@ve

Richie F said:
The Briggs serial number should be on the fan blower housing, either on a bent tab or on the housing in another location.
Click to expand...
The only serial number I found is on a barcode on the mower housing, which I can't find any cross reference for on the web. Nothing is stamped into the engine; I checked multiple times. I'm guessing the previous owner must have removed it.


#25

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

Ranamow said:
Just a note on doubling up the intake gasket... It doesn't work!
What I do, is clean the plastic housing really good, put the gasket on and spread a little bit of rtv along the bottom edge where the air channel runs. Let it dry, and you're good to go.
Click to expand...
It's always worked for me.


#26

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

D@ve said:
The only serial number I found is on a barcode on the mower housing, which I can't find any cross reference for on the web. Nothing is stamped into the engine; I checked multiple times. I'm guessing the previous owner must have removed it.
Click to expand...
look on the flap above the muffler. it may be rusty enough, get a scotch brite to help clear some rust away,


#27

StarTech

StarTech

Depending on when it was made I might be able cross reference the bar code. Just post it and see if I can or not.
Ranamow said:
Just a note on doubling up the intake gasket... It doesn't work!
What I do, is clean the plastic housing really good, put the gasket on and spread a little bit of rtv along the bottom edge where the air channel runs. Let it dry, and you're good to go.
Click to expand...
Using two air cleaner gaskets does work if you modify them to make them contact in the warped area. Basically you making a wedge gasket.


#28

TylerFrankel1

TylerFrankel1

StarTech said:
Depending on when it was made I might be able cross reference the bar code. Just post it and see if I can or not.

Using two air cleaner gaskets does work if you modify them to make them contact in the warped area. Basically you making a wedge gasket.
Click to expand...
Always works for me.


#29

M

Mower bandit

Rivets said:
This manual should answer most of your questions. Post back if you have more questions. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6NaqjIxWV1ycG8wd0s3Z2Q2X00/vie
heamicdan said:
this is what i have---have to use a shot of gas in carb ---everyone keeps telling me it has the thermostat but it does not! no signs of it anywhere----been looking to see if there is a special carb---mine has run perfect for years and i like it---just now this year it will not autochoke
Click to expand...
The model tag should be behind the grass catcher door
Click to expand...


#30

D@ve

D@ve

I cleaned it up, primed the bejeebers out of it and it didn't give a hint of it wanting to fire after 10-15 pulls. Pulled the air filter off and hit it with one quick squirt of starter fluid and it started with one pull. Most aggravating. FWIW, the model number I found on behind the grass catcher door (thanks Mower Bandit) is 20016, serial # 220407xxx. The problem is that when I look this up on the Toro site it shows this model as having a Tecumseh engine, but I'm fairly certain I have the B&S engine 124T02-0161-B1 as listed for the Toro model 20065 (https://www.toro.com/en/parts/partdetails/?id=31836). I assume from this that someone has Frankenstein'ed this mower together(?). I haven't checked the air cleaner gaskets so I guess that's my last hope unless someone else has any ideas.


#31

H

heamicdan

Scrubcadet10 said:
The non flammable won't ignite via spark in the engine... or at least that's been my experience after accidentally buying the non flammable. i've just started using the house brand O'rielly's or Advance auto.
View attachment 56632
Click to expand...
i use it but most of time use gas that i squirt in


#32

H

heamicdan

Hammermechanicman said:
Well...... yes i have as a matter of fact and due to a slight miscalculation resulting in a sizeable loss of hair on my arm and the back of my head i have purchased an air blast tire bead seater. $100 very well spent!
Click to expand...
a comealong works better -- gas works on car tires but not so great on new small tires


#33

R

Rivets

Heamicdan, I’m still looking for pics of that carb with no choke or throttle??? Dave, if you push the primer build you should see fuel pumped into the air horn. If you don’t see fuel only three possible causes. Warped air filter base, bad gasket or bad primer bulb. If you’ve ever had to install a tractor tire out in the field, you’ll know why the old mechanics carried carb cleaner, two inch chain, two pieces of rebar shaped like a shepherds hook and some kindling lightly soaked in oil. Big bang, but it works 98% of the time, the first try.


#34

S

SmallEngineHead160

Could you post a picture of the complete engine for us?
It's to bad you can't find the model # on the engine.


#35

D@ve

D@ve

SmallEngineHead160 said:
Could you post a picture of the complete engine for us?
It's to bad you can't find the model # on the engine.
Click to expand...
See my other post w/model & engine info: https://www.lawnmowerforum.com/threads/early-style-auto-choke-for-b-s-190cc-engine.64874/post-398539
I cleaned everything up, including the air box and primer bulb, but still no joy.
I think I may get a new air box base / primer. There seemed to be very little air flowing through it when I had it off the carb. If that doesn't do it I guess I'll stick with the starter fluid method.


#36

B

beerslayer12

i have a similar issue no primer op. starts with ether will run great till out of gas then same thing ether gets it restarted why i need to prime warm engine got me ? everything new after double down on gaskets for air box to carb 1st then new primer ball then new complete air box absolute zero fuel spray? i can give a shot of compressed air into coresponding carb hole or through vacated primer bulb hole into screen area hole and see fuel squirt up venturi . carb is new as well cyl comp. sorta low 50ish using 40 yr old auto gauge set . not a high mile unit or ever abused etc


#37

S

slomo

Ranamow said:
Just a note on doubling up the intake gasket... It doesn't work!
What I do, is clean the plastic housing really good, put the gasket on and spread a little bit of rtv along the bottom edge where the air channel runs. Let it dry, and you're good to go.
Click to expand...
On the gasket, isn't there a special hole for air to go into the carb to prime? And RTV oozing into that hole causing it to not work? No sale..... 2 gaskets it is.

slomo


#38

B

beerslayer12

slomo said:
On the gasket, isn't there a special hole for air to go into the carb to prime? And RTV oozing into that hole causing it to not work? No sale..... 2 gaskets it is.

slomo
Click to expand...
i am a newbie to this forum although read topics for years so thx 4 responding.. this is really got me scratching my head. i was wondering if i hold cover with gasket removed and finger over that hole leading to carb that feeds pressure to bowl and push on primer bulb should there not be some evidence of resistance till i remove finger ? i was thinking maybe i could try this test under water and look to c if air is escaping elsewhere on the cover plate its brand new so i dont get it


#39

S

slomo

Sure, primer bulb could be dead. You could also take a can of compressed air or an air compressor, blow air into that same hole on the carb. A small squirt of fuel should squirt up vertically into the carb. Your carb might be clogged up too not allowing the primed air to enter, filled with grass and muck.

slomo


#40

B

beerslayer12

slomo said:
Sure, primer bulb could be dead. You could also take a can of compressed air or an air compressor, blow air into that same hole on the carb. A small squirt of fuel should squirt up vertically into the carb. Your carb might be clogged up too not allowing the primed air to enter, filled with grass and muck.

slomo
Click to expand...
after having putzed around with the old parts i got brand new air filter housing with bulb and new gasket and still got zip i did apply some compressed air through carb hole and also with primer bulb out directly into the screen hole on cover and fuel did disperse up venturi (carb is brand new )


#41

B

beerslayer12

after spraying i bit of soapy water on back of housing (off mower) i pressed primer and bubbles clearly coming through channel to hole and after gasket install as well i have this syringe i think for maybe iv fl. but i use them to pull aquarium water for testing i pressed it up against hole in carb and clearly c fuel squirting up so i hail mary bombed 3 gaskets (i got about 6 or so) and just kept laying into mounting screws(1/4 in drive) and pressed primer at same time and sure enough here comes fuel. now starts 1 pull if primed . i guess some times u just gotta throw deep hope someone pulls it down !


#42

S

slomo

beerslayer12 said:
after spraying i bit of soapy water on back of housing (off mower) i pressed primer and bubbles clearly coming through channel to hole and after gasket install as well i have this syringe i think for maybe iv fl. but i use them to pull aquarium water for testing i pressed it up against hole in carb and clearly c fuel squirting up so i hail mary bombed 3 gaskets (i got about 6 or so) and just kept laying into mounting screws(1/4 in drive) and pressed primer at same time and sure enough here comes fuel. now starts 1 pull if primed . i guess some times u just gotta throw deep hope someone pulls it down !
Click to expand...
Did you over torque the tiny fasteners already? A new filter housing and primer gasket should of got you going. Those tiny screws don't need a lot of torque. Use your weak hand, open your fingers on the ratchet and GENTLY snug it down. It's not going to fly off the mower. No need for impact guns either.

Was wondering if you had some Chinese carb that the primer air circuit didn't work. Had me going for a bit. Glad to hear it's running sir.

Oh and DON'T BE A STRANGER on here. Even if you cut the grass one day, let us know. LOL

slomo


#43

S

slomo

Put down the NASCAR impact gun LOL.

slomo


#44

B

beerslayer12

slomo said:
Did you over torque the tiny fasteners already? A new filter housing and primer gasket should of got you going. Those tiny screws don't need a lot of torque. Use your weak hand, open your fingers on the ratchet and GENTLY snug it down. It's not going to fly off the mower. No need for impact guns either.

Was wondering if you had some Chinese carb that the primer air circuit didn't work. Had me going for a bit. Glad to hear it's running sir.

Oh and DON'T BE A STRANGER on here. Even if you cut the grass one day, let us know. LOL

slomo
Click to expand...
thx 4 responses my auto shop is slow and theres a lot of people dragging/wheeling all sorts of internal combustion machines to the curb in my neighborhood just waiting for pick up and task of reviving the flatliners (as long as its $ effective) as far as impact guns years ago i got online a used 1/2 drive mac tools awp434 ? and its always set to off position- its a beast ! i could only imagine the crews jumping over the walls with that anchor !
i got other civilized i guns for tightening !


#45

D@ve

D@ve

So I doubled up the gaskets twixt the carb and the airbox to no avail. My gut tells me a new airbox isn't going to fix this. Anyone know of an aftermarket carb that comes with a manual choke for this, or any other possible ways to eliminate the governor from the equation?


#46

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

The Governor has nothing to do with this problem.

here is an aftermarket carb with a choke, OEM part number is 499059 or 497586.
https://www.amazon.com/FitBest-Carb...tton+quantum+carburetor&qid=1622914676&sr=8-4


#47

D@ve

D@ve

Scrubcadet10 said:
The Governor has nothing to do with this problem.

here is an aftermarket carb with a choke, OEM part number is 499059 or 497586.
https://www.amazon.com/FitBest-Carb...tton+quantum+carburetor&qid=1622914676&sr=8-4
Click to expand...
Thanks again Scrubcadet10. I'm not clear on how you can eliminate the governor from the problem since the motor fires up on the first pull when the carb intake is blocked off with a rag, or a shot of starter fluid is used, or the engine is warm. I appreciate your help.


#48

R

Rivets

Scrub is correct. Governor is used to control engine speed and has nothing to do with starting.


#49

D@ve

D@ve

All right, thanks. I guess that makes sense. I assume then that the primer bulb is the only thing that has an affect on fuel/air mixture at startup with this carb?


#50

D@ve

D@ve

Is there any way to test out the primer bulb? I've pulled it out of the air box and there are no cracks or anything. No back pressure when using it, although there doesn't seem to be a lot of air flowing through.


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