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Background;
Coming from a 23 year old Black & Decker CMM1200 Lead-Acid (Gel Cell) battery powered mower, I started looking for a replacement a year ago. I never had any intention of even remotely considered a gas powered mower. This mower has seen 5 battery changes, 3 blade changes and 3 wheel changes along with 2 safety recalls that updated the charger circuit and the dead-mans switches (that I never had a problem with). The mower is still fine, I clean it after most uses, especially in the Spring. It gets taken in the basement for the Winter from a detached garage (the batteries are not easily removable). My city properties lawn (measured in feet, not acres) is about 3500 sq. feet.

I have always been mechanically & electrical/electronically inclined, in this case my concern was and is the battery packs. I have literally read hundreds of one & two star reviews (mostly thru Amazon, I ignore 5 star) and found that the battery and run time is the number one issue. Being somewhat familiar with Li-Ion packs, thou I never had any of this capacity, I was aware of the shortcomings including the do's & don'ts which according to those reviewers probably 75% of them do not. Since these replacement packs run from $100 up to around $400 (depending on capacity), the concern is valid.
I have also worked in the maintenance department of a local, private high school for a few years that included 'grounds' work using gas powered tools including trimmers, push & riding mowers.

Having stated that, THE place to go for some needed battery education (thou somewhat advanced) is BatteryUniversity courtesy of Cadex Electronics;
https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/

Summing that up;
1. Fully charging and discharging a Li-Ion pack is one of the worse things one can do. Especially draining it down to the point the device in use shuts down.
2. Charging it fully when it will sit, unused a long period of time is the 2nd bad practice. Storage condition should be around 40% (between 30 & 50%)

Anyway, attached are two spreadsheets one is a list of common, popular and initially 'interesting' choices for mowers. All but a few are NOT self propelled since I feel these are light enough, it's not needed. That and the fact the self propelled feature;
adds around $100 to the cost,
is extra weight,
more of a draw on the battery pack,
something more to go wrong.

I have include the very newly introduced Toro cordless 60v mowers (2 basic models with slight variations) to the list and the ones under the Craftsman name now sold thru Lowes. I have NOT included the 'Kobalt' name since these are being discontinued thru Lowes.
I will add; "Global Tool Works" (Group China) is the actual manufacturer for the names of Snapper, Greenworks, Kobalt and Stihl (among others). Greenworks is NOT a manufacture.
Also, Snapper discontinued their 60v line in favor of a 48v replacements.
The sources for all of this are from;
Manufactures web sites,
Manuals & parts lists,
Retail sites (Amazon, Home Depot, Lowe's, etc.)
Actual phones calls to the various importers confirming data and tiring to fill in the blanks (easier said then done).

The 2nd list shows various battery packs for these mowers and some generic Chinese no-name substitutes. Yes, I know, these are risky, but may be worth a try since the cost of the 'brand' version is kinda expensive. Note the prices are the lowest common prices I found and the watt hour figure came from multiplying idle voltage by amperage (except where noted). W/Hr is the most important number, not voltage. Voltage is more of a selling point. There actually are at least 2 models that are listed at 120 volts DC which in my opinion is overkill and really unsafe. (It's called marketing). Watt hour is more important relating to run time.

Please note:
Since this forum limits file types, the Windows extension of these two spreadsheet files has been changed to .txt (text format). These are in the OpenOffice ".odt" spreadsheet format (a free open source office suite better than Office & Excel).
It's compatible with MS Office by;
changing the extension to .odt,
right click & choose "Open with" Excel (or whatever spreadsheet program you use).

To expand on the above, I have tried Greenworks 60v & Ryobi 40v models. As of this entry, it looks as I will keep the Ryobi. It was $100 less than GW's, it's far easier to clean the area abound the blade, the battery pack can be removed from the charger without using excessive force with the GW (NO, I'm not exaggerating) and the warranty is a year longer. It is a 'plastic' like deck, but so was the B&D and that's 23 years old. There are a few worn thru and scratched/scuffed areas, but operation is not affected.
All three has or in the case of B&D had local service which is a huge plus. I wish I had a dollar for every review that whined about no local service. What you didn't check first?? Other tan local service I also checked for a parts list and asked about replacement cost for common and possible problem parts, especially ones that are expensive.

Testing these two mowers I found some interesting patterns as to charging. The main problem with MOST of these cordless mowers is the lack of a active on-board charge state indication. Stopping the mower every 5 minutes, opening the battery compartment, pressing the button on the pack just to find out the SOC (state of charge) is rediculus. I only found two mowers (one is included in the previous chart) that does have a separate readout as to battery state. I never had that problem with a lead acid powered mower since you can hear the motor slow down when the battery is dyeing. Li-Ion powered motors run normal speed until they can't. It's on or off.
As to Ryobi, it's ironic, when the pack is in the charger, the LED array is active showing the charge status progress. If it works there, why not on the mower?? What's more interesting is the charger reports after just over 3 hours that the pack is charged, but the pack reports it's at the 'above 75%' charge state. It takes another 45 minutes ti fully top off the pack. Ryobi confirms what I suspected that the original packs for that mower it's been out since 2013 I believe) were 2.5 a/hr, not the 5a/hr that is used now, confusing the charger circuit.

Both of these chargers seem to follow a similar pattern, thou GW's pack indicator isn't lit during charging. AC current slowly tapers off to less than 1 watt when the pack reaches 100% charge state (using a 'Kill-A'Watt' equivalent meter). Both chargers get hot, the Ryobi suffers from very poor vent design with only a set of vents at the bottom of the base. There are what appeared to be vents on the sides, but they are NOT actual vents! No idea what they were thinking here. :thumbdown:
They have come out with a new, two piece model (separate power supply) which I would figure will solve that problem.

The packs themselves were only warm after use and when in the charger, except the Ryobi that was very warm from the heat off the charger itself, not from the charging process. Both systems are a slower charge rate which is good for longevity, but a disadvantage if the run time isn't long enough for the lawn to be cut. Fast charging most any battery technology shortens life due to stressing the pack. IOW's; no free ride.
Again, see BatteryUniversity's link I provided. :wink:

Lastly all of the mowers except for Ego are brushless (AFAIK). Brushless motors are around 10% more efficient. One of many reasons why I didn't choose Ego.

FYI, Ego does sell a cordless lawn mower model with a brushless motor. It has a steel deck and is considerably more expensive than the base models with a brushed motor and plastic deck.

Also, lithium-ion battery packs contain circuitry that prevents them from becoming completely discharged during use.

Correct on both;
I believe that is Ego's only brushless & steel deck version and is their most expensive (or close to it) model. They are one of the very few importers that aren't all brushless. At those prices, it makes them overpriced (and overrated) alone with the excessive use of 'plastic' like materials AFAIC.

As to internal battery pack protection circuity, depending on the pack and the associated charger, I have read numerous reports of packs not being able to be recharged due to the internal voltage was too low for the charger to recognize. That requires 'jump starting' the pack as one would do the same to a auto battery. While somewhat easy for anyone versed in electronics (or the like), it shouldn't be done by 'joe sixpack'.

Greenhouse (Global Tool Works) pack PCB;

videobruce said:

Background;
Anyway, attached are two spreadsheets one is a list of common, popular and initially 'interesting' choices for mowers. All but a few are NOT self propelled since I feel these are light enough, it's not needed. That and the fact the self propelled feature;
adds around $100 to the cost,
is extra weight,
more of a draw on the battery pack,
something more to go wrong.

I have include the very newly introduced Toro cordless 60v mowers (2 basic models with slight variations) to the list and the ones under the Craftsman name now sold thru Lowes. I have NOT included the 'Kobalt' name since these are being discontinued thru Lowes.
I will add; "Global Tool Works" (Group China) is the actual manufacturer for the names of Snapper, Greenworks, Kobalt and Stihl (among others). Greenworks is NOT a manufacture.
Also, Snapper discontinued their 60v line in favor of a 48v replacements.
The sources for all of this are from;
Manufactures web sites,
Manuals & parts lists,
Retail sites (Amazon, Home Depot, Lowe's, etc.)
Actual phones calls to the various importers confirming data and tiring to fill in the blanks (easier said then done).

The 2nd list shows various battery packs for these mowers and some generic Chinese no-name substitutes. Yes, I know, these are risky, but may be worth a try since the cost of the 'brand' version is kinda expensive. Note the prices are the lowest common prices I found and the watt hour figure came from multiplying idle voltage by amperage (except where noted). W/Hr is the most important number, not voltage. Voltage is more of a selling point. There actually are at least 2 models that are listed at 120 volts DC which in my opinion is overkill and really unsafe. (It's called marketing). Watt hour is more important relating to run time.

Please note:
Since this forum limits file types, the Windows extension of these two spreadsheet files has been changed to .txt (text format). These are in the OpenOffice ".odt" spreadsheet format (a free open source office suite better than Office & Excel).
It's compatible with MS Office by;
changing the extension to .odt,
right click & choose "Open with" Excel (or whatever spreadsheet program you use).

Click to expand...

I'd really like to look at your two spreadsheets, but can't get them to open. I even tried to follow your instructions, but either my computer or my version of MS Office does not allow me to do what you say to do.

Don't think I've ever tried but have on other forums ... this site really will not allow you to attach a pdf or word doc ??

Doug

Those are not 'spreadsheet' formats. The correct extension is .ods not .odt (I can't edit that post) .odt is a text document. Sorry about that. :frown:

Do you have them saved somewhere? If not, do so. When you choose the 'Open with' context option after you change the extension, what happens?
The original extension is .ods (OpenOffice Calculator program format). You can change the extension to .xls or one of the dozen or so other extensions M$ uses (rediculus number :thumbdown: ) and try that.

Or, you can use AOO (Apache OpenOffice) and junk that POS M$ suite of crap;
https://www.openoffice.org/download/

I haven't had to use any M$ program for well over 18 years other than their O/S. There are always alternatives, many are free. :smile: BTW, there is a portable version of that s/w package available.

I tried opening it using the latest version of Corel Quattro Pro, but it did not work. It will open with a trial version of Excel on my new PC, but I don't want to activate it and end up have to pay money to MS. I have set Quattro Pro as my default program for all spreadsheet formats, including Excel. Later today I may fire up my old XP PC which has an older version of Excel, and see if it can open your spreadsheets.

I've got an older version of Office Enterprise (2007 I think) on all my computers so the M$ system is not making any $$ off of me.

I just don't get the option to change the ".txt" to something else when I open or try to save these documents.

If I open a word or excel document, I have options to save it as something else but not this.

Doug

dougmacm said:

I've got an older version of Office Enterprise (2007 I think) on all my computers so the M$ system is not making any $$ off of me.

I just don't get the option to change the ".txt" to something else when I open or try to save these documents.

If I open a word or excel document, I have options to save it as something else but not this.

Doug

Click to expand...

After you download the files to your computer hard drive, just right click on them and select Rename. The filename will appear in an edit box, and you can change the extension from txt to ods or whatever.

MowerMike said:

After you download the files to your computer hard drive, just right click on them and select Rename. The filename will appear in an edit box, and you can change the extension from txt to ods or whatever.

Click to expand...

I just don't get the option to change the ".txt" to something else when I open or try to save these documents.

as I said before, I just don't get the option to change the ".txt" to something else when I open or try to save / rename these documents.

I did try re-naming by adding a ".xls" to the end of one of them, but it just became part of the name instead of changing the file type.

I also have Win XP & 7 computers here at work and could not change the file type in these systems either.

Doug

dougmacm said:

I just don't get the option to change the ".txt" to something else when I open or try to save these documents.

as I said before, I just don't get the option to change the ".txt" to something else when I open or try to save / rename these documents.

I did try re-naming by adding a ".xls" to the end of one of them, but it just became part of the name instead of changing the file type.

I also have Win XP & 7 computers here at work and could not change the file type in these systems either.

Doug

Click to expand...

Did you try changing the extension from txt to ods ? Note, you must change the extension, not just add to it. So filename.txt becomes filename.ods, not filename.txt.ods. Anyways, I was able to change it to filename.ods, then double click on the file and it opened properly in Excel. As soon as I changed the extension to ods, the file was flagged in my file manager as an Excel type. I then closed it immediately when it asked me to activate Excel using my MS account name, which would have resulted in money being sucked out of my bank account.

OK. So I just fired the old XP computer, transferred the files with the .ods extension to its hard drive, and successfully opened them using Excel in MS Office Home and Student Edition 2007. In both cases Excel reported that some portions of the spreadsheet were unreadable, and offered to repair them. Once open, a few cells appeared with ? marks, which I assume was the unreadable/undecipherable data. I then saved them as Excel workbooks with the extension .xlsx.

MowerMike said:

Did you try changing the extension from txt to ods ? Note, you must change the extension, not just add to it. So filename.txt becomes filename.ods, not filename.txt.ods. Anyways, I was able to change it to filename.ods, then double click on the file and it opened properly in Excel. As soon as I changed the extension to ods, the file was flagged in my file manager as an Excel type. I then closed it immediately when it asked me to activate Excel using my MS account name, which would have resulted in money being sucked out my bank account.

Click to expand...

OK … figured it out … had to edit "file folder options" to include ".xxx" extensions which was not selected before.

Once I did this, I could edit the .xxx and then was able to open in Excel.

I've built a few computers from scratch and always got them up and running. I'm good with hardware but I'm not a windows or windows based software expert, know just enough to get by. Never had any reason to do this before so never messed around with folder options before either.

Thanks Mike as well as Bruce for putting these spreadsheets together.

Doug

Glad you figured this out. This is not so much a Windows thing, but more a manual file management thing that harkens back to the pre-Windows days of DOS. I too used to build all my desktop computers, but more recently have just purchased pre-built PCs with pre-loaded software, because it's such a pain to load and install Windows. At work I did a lot of programming in DOS mode, and when I retired 10 years ago, was still using Windows 98SE, which can be run in native DOS mode. I use a file manager named PowerDesk Pro 9, which is much better than the crappy File Explorer that comes with Windows. It makes all these operations much simpler and has a lot of built-in utilities such as file unzipping and viewing. I detest MS Office, and have always used Corel Office instead, except in rare cases like this where I'm forced to use MS Office. Having said that, once I converted these files to a valid Excel format, I was able to transfer them back to my new PC and open them without any drama in Corel Quattro Pro. Of course, when it comes to web browsing activities, using the newest versions of Windows is pretty much mandatory, and I mostly use my old XP computer offline. It is also unable to perform certain tasks such as tax preparation, since TurboTax stopped supporting Win XP 4 years ago, Vista 2 years ago and no doubt support for Win 7 will be next. Sigh.

COMPARISON SPECS not in your spreadsheet but maybe the most worthwhile comparison:

"Battery Weight per Watt Hour"

since many of these mfr's are fudging their voltage, (I.E. Ryobi & GW 40V is really 36V … Kobalt & GW 80V is really 72V, etc.) , I thought this would really be the ultimate comparison, so I did some calculations of some of the Lithium Ion batteries I have actual UPS Scale weights and specs for:

Ryobi 4V AP4001 … 0.14 lbs. / 5Wh = 0.028 lbs. per Wh

Ryobi 18V P102 … 0.91 lbs. / 24Wh = 0.038 lbs. per Wh
Ryobi 18V P108 … 1.58 lbs. / 72Wh = 0.022 lbs. per Wh
Ryobi 18V P193 … 2.04 lbs. / 108Wh = 0.019 lbs. per Wh

Ryobi 40V OP4015 … 2.06 lbs. / 55Wh = 0.037 lbs. per Wh
Ryobi 40V OP4026 … 3.04 lbs. / 94Wh = 0.032 lbs. per Wh
Ryobi 40V OP40301 … 3.02 lbs. / 108Wh = 0.028 lbs. per Wh

GW 40V 29462 … 1.82 lbs. / 73Wh = 0.025 lbs. per Wh
GW 40V 2901319 … 1.84 lbs. / 90Wh = 0.020 lbs. per Wh
GW 40V 29472 ... 2.88 lbs. / 146Wh = 0.020 lbs. per Wh
GW 40V L-600 … 2.94 lbs. / 240Wh = 0.012 lbs. per Wh

Kobalt 80V KB2580-06 … 3.28 lbs. / 180Wh = 0.018 lbs. per Wh
Kobalt 80V KB580-06 … 5.56 lbs. / 360Wh = 0.015 lbs. per Wh

The most impressive watt density weight ratios are in BOLD.

Doug

MowerMike said:

In both cases Excel reported that some portions of the spreadsheet were unreadable, and offered to repair them. Once open, a few cells appeared with ? marks, which I assume was the unreadable/undecipherable data.

Click to expand...

Out of curiosity, which chart was unreadable?
AFA the question marks, they are suppose to be there since that data was not available from the manufacture.

"Battery Weight per Watt Hour"
category would be extremely hard to compile since battery weights are all over the place. One doesn't know if it is the weight of the pack itself or the shipping weight. Mower weights are the same way. I have see conflicting weight s for the same mower more than once while looking for enough data for those charts. The only TRUE way of doing so is actually having the pack using a 'postage scale', which I have (for precision). These mower packs are around 3 lbs and even 10ths of a lb would be somewhat vague.

videobruce said:

Out of curiosity, which chart was unreadable?
AFA the question marks, they are suppose to be there since that data was not available from the manufacture.

Click to expand...

Excel reported that portions of both spreadsheets were unreadable, and offered to repair, but never showed what portions or exactly what aspect was a problem. Perhaps it was just a font type/size or color issue, since the resulting cells had a total mishmash of fonts in them. I think a newer version of Excel might have worked better. Since you have stated that the ? marks were supposed to be there, I have probably captured all the data that you entered.

The font I always use is Verdena 9 pt.

Not to get OT, but attached (1 zip file) are those two comparisons in OO format and in .xls (that OO converted to the older Excel format). See if the problem of different fonts remain in the .ods versions.
I think I know what happened. Any time I add or delete columns or rows, any new blocks are in the default OO font which is Arial (I believe).

videobruce said:

The font I always use is Verdena 9 pt.

Not to get OT, but attached (1 zip file) are those two comparisons in OO format and in .xls (that OO converted to the older Excel format). See if the problem of different fonts remain in the .ods versions.
I think I know what happened. Any time I add or delete columns or rows, any new blocks are in the default OO font which is Arial (I believe).

Click to expand...

I was able to open the Excel .xls files without any problem in my Quattro Pro X9 spreadsheet program, so no need to monkey with the .ods files. Both spreadheets look fine, except that the text in some cells was red instead of black. I don't know if that was intentional. Anyway, all fonts are the same size and type, no data is missing, so I'd call it a success.

The few red and bold entries were also intentional to bring attention.
Any typos are/were just that, typos. Any mistakes I welcome corrections.

Getting information is tough sometimes. It's as one has to drag it out of some of these companies. The most recent is from 2 companies; "Powerworks" & "Lasica"where I have asked more than once thru either e-bay or Amazon who males the cells they use in their packs and both refused to answer.

videobruce said:

Getting information is tough sometimes. It's as one has to drag it out of some of these companies. The most recent is from 2 companies; "Powerworks" & "Lasica"where I have asked more than once thru either e-bay or Amazon who males the cells they use in their packs and both refused to answer.

Click to expand...

Powerworks is just rebranded Greenworks, so the battery cells are going to be Chinese. Never heard of Lasica, but I’d be surprised if their battery cells were not also Chinese. Most of these companies are just marketing operations, and don’t manufacture or design anything. If a product is not sold through brick and mortar stores or at least their online storefronts, I wouldn’t waste my time buying their products.

Ever hear of "Vanon"? That was the name on the cells that had a "Bonacell" battery pack name that has the 'sleep' issue making it unusable. That's in a number of Amazon reviews, I don't know if it is limited to that name or not yet.
Packs under the Lasica name (yes, I know that isn't the actual manufacture) are sold on e-bay & Amazon.

BTW, according to the sellers of Biswaye & Epowon stated (when I asked), those cells are Goldstar (LG).

videobruce said:

Ever hear of "Vanon"? That was the name on the cells that had a "Bonacell" battery pack name that has the 'sleep' issue making it unusable. That's in a number of Amazon reviews, I don't know if it is limited to that name or not yet.
Packs under the Lasica name (yes, I know that isn't the actual manufacture) are sold on e-bay & Amazon.

BTW, according to the sellers of Biswaye & Epowon stated (when I asked), those cells are Goldstar (LG).

Click to expand...

No, never heard of Vanon, or the many other dozens of names attached to products that are made in the same Chinese factories with very poor quality control. LG is Korean, so the quality is normally very good.

You can also include Panasonic, Samsung & Sanyo & Sony to that list of good cells.

At least the no-name pack had cells with some kind of name on them. Vanon does even have a website (believe it or not). Thou it doesn't mean it's the same company.