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I have read and have removed and replaced a starter motor on a BX1500 Kubota.
It is a nightmare because of room spacing.
I know now that the contacts on my solenoid are not making good contact when I try to start.
Without trying to remove the starter again. Here is what I am thinking of doing.
Buying a three terminal starter relay. connecting the B+ from the starter motor to the B+ on the new relay.
Then connecting the other side of this relay to the starter motor. Effectively by passing the contacts in the solenoid.
I will make a parallel connection to both the new solenoid and the old solenoid. This will engergize the plunger to the fly wheel. and at the same time close the new solenoid contacts.
When the motor starts, pinon falls back 5 volts to solenoids (because the starter switch is disengaged) is broken and the motor starts.
What do you think.

As far as I know you can't do this as the current starter as it is a solenoid shift starter. The solenoid not only engages the starter motor it also moves the starter Bendix into the flywheel ring gear.

Now if you can mount a non solenoid shifter starter then you can and would need to add the remote solenoid (relay).

Here is my concern.
When the engine starts the pinion leaves the fly wheel. does the pinion disconnect the solenoid voltage or does turning the spring loaded key switch make the pinon pull back and thereby disconnecting the current to the starter motor.

Your keyswitch provider voltage to solenoid trigger wire. As solenoid retracts it both moves the starter Bendix up into the flywheel ring gear and also makes a contact plate across the two main terminals internally to activate the starter itself. When when you release the keyswitch the voltage to solenoid is no longer present and solenoid release the Bendix and move the contact plate away from the two main terminals deactivating the starter motor.

StarTech said:

Your keyswitch provider voltage to solenoid trigger wire. As solenoid retracts it both moves the starter Bendix up into the flywheel ring gear and also makes a contact plate across the two main terminals internally to activate the starter itself. When when you release the keyswitch the voltage to solenoid is no longer present and solenoid release the Bendix and move the contact plate away from the two main terminals deactivating the starter motor.

Click to expand...

Excellent,
then what I am going to do, will work.
All this because it is so difficult to remove the starter and solenoid from the Bx1500.. Clearances are almost impossible without removing a lot of parts.

Just some of the Gravely ZTRs where the engine has to pulled just to get to remote starter solenoid.

Gravely use to be a great machine. I had two of them and they were beasts.
Then they sold out.
Wouldn't touch them out.

neighborbill said:

Gravely use to be a great machine. I had two of them and they were beasts.
Then they sold out.
Wouldn't touch them out.

Click to expand...

Gravely was never a great zero turn mower, but a good, solid zero turn mower, yes. Gravely is the commercial side, and Ariens is the residential side, same company. When you say “Gravely sold out”, do you mean literally? Because Gravely has not sold out.

Gravely was acquired by Ariens in 1982. So yes they were basically swallowed up by Ariens but remains as a division of Ariens. Matter of fact they opened a Gravely factory in Fayetteville, TN fairly recently.

I have one customer that has both Ariens and Gravely mowers that looks nearly identical except for cosmetics such as paint color. Actually one of the Ariens is sitting is sitting on the parts yard as he was not willing to replace the blown engine.

Even many of the part numbers are the same.

It the same way Murray brand still exists until Briggs either kills it off or sale the rights to another company. Or the way Tecumseh died and was reborn and now probably dying again.

Just curious.
You say you REPLACED THE STARTER MOTOR and the solenoid contacts are not making good contact.
It's a solenoid shift type starter and the solenoid is on the starter housing.
I've seen the mechanical bendix shift linkages on those type starters get worn and act like bad solenoid and replacing the solenoid would not correct the issue.

Most generally a NEW small engine replacement bendix shift type starter comes with a new solenoid on the starter and on some starters the solenoid only can be removed from the starter and replaced and others are made as a complete starter solenoid assembly.
Did you install a new starter as an assembly with the new solenoid???(or use your old solenoid on the replacement starter
If you installed all as new and the solenoid is bad it might have a warranty.
Did the old starter fail or have the same crank issue or what?

Reason I ask is I'm wondering if you have taken voltage reading to confirm that the solenoid is the issue and not a electrical issue elsewhere?
I do feel your pain about having to do go backs into a non-friendly machine.

Let me explain how I came to my conclusions.
A few years ago I put in the new starter motor with the solenoid attached on top.
Now what is happening. The signal voltage energizes the solenoid but the motor does not spin. I am getting 12 volts to the starter but when the signal is applied and the pinion kicks in there is no voltage showing up on the lower lug which leads to the starter motor itself.
I used a starter switch to jump 12 volts to the starter motor. Turned on the key, pressed the starter switch and it starts right up.
So the contacts in the solenoid can't be making good contact. I purchased a new solenoid but I'm going to have to remove the starter to put the solenoid on.
However, before I go through all the problems of getting it out and putting it back, here is what I'm going to do.
I have a three post solenoid. I am going to mount it near the starter. Run the battery B+ to that solenoid post. And then out the other post to the starter motor. Next make a parallel connection from the signal wire to the three post solenoid and to the old solenoid so that the pinion will energize.
Sounds like a lot but it isn't. Much easier then removing the starter and all that other gear to get the access.
What do you think?

That sounds like it's might work ok because you are still using the starter's existing solenoid as the shift bendix gear mechanical and the add on solenoid's CONTACTs in parallel with the starter's solenoid contacts.

Make sure you do not use a wimpy China type add-on solenoid. The reason i say this is I've had issues with the cheaper China solenoids contacts welding closed and ruining starters. (starter will stay engauged after the key is turned off and cannot be heard with the engine running)
Also mount the add on solenoid so as it's shielded from rain water.

You can easily test such before making a permanent mount.
Next time going into the machine replace the complete starter. I've had good luck with replacement starters from DB electric.
I re-build small engine starters but in your case I would not even trust a re-built starter for long life since it's hard to get to labor wise, go with new type.
Report back with your results.

I bought that starter from DB Electric a few years ago. Just surprised to find out about the contacts. Sooner or later I'll get it out of there and see what is up with those contacts.

What I am doing is basically jumping the old contacts

You are right about the continuous run on the starter motor if the contacts stick. I'll watch for that . Thanks for that tip.

Also make sure the voltage at trigger terminal is not dropping a lot. ON some mowers I have to add a helper relay due long trigger wire runs causing voltage drops that only partially energizes the solenoid thus it sounds like it is working but it not fully engaging.

Also keep in mind that with the some electric mechanical shift bendix type starters that due to the mechanical design the solenoid en-gauges/shifts the bendix pinion gear into the flywheel slightly BEFORE the starter motor starts spinning (slightly before the solenoid contacts make to spin the starter motor) and reduces chance of flywheel teeth and bendix gear teeth wear which is a good design. The bendix is not spinning when it first en-gauges the flywheel teeth. (as compared to the other types that has the starter spinning and the starter pinion gear is already spinning as it en-gauges the flywheel ring gear teeth)
Your starter motor and bendix pinion gear is going to be already spinning as the gear is moved towards the flywheel teeth when you add your external solenoid.
Keep a heads up and do not ruin your flywheel ring gear teeth.

A good reasonably priced add on heavy duty solenoid type starter relay is the old fender mounted FORD starter relay. They can be used as the three terminal type even though they have 4 terminals and the frame of the case on most has to be grounded and they are almost bullet proof.

I would have mentioned this sooner but my internet went down for awhile.

neighborbill said:

I have read and have removed and replaced a starter motor on a BX1500 Kubota.
It is a nightmare because of room spacing.
I know now that the contacts on my solenoid are not making good contact when I try to start.
Without trying to remove the starter again. Here is what I am thinking of doing.
Buying a three terminal starter relay. connecting the B+ from the starter motor to the B+ on the new relay.
Then connecting the other side of this relay to the starter motor. Effectively by passing the contacts in the solenoid.
I will make a parallel connection to both the new solenoid and the old solenoid. This will engergize the plunger to the fly wheel. and at the same time close the new solenoid contacts.
When the motor starts, pinon falls back 5 volts to solenoids (because the starter switch is disengaged) is broken and the motor starts.
What do you think.

Click to expand...

I did the VERY SAME THING on an old Toyota pickup. It'll work fine!

wb3czi said:

I did the VERY SAME THING on an old Toyota pickup. It'll work fine!

Click to expand...

Thanks for the comment
I previously said "5 volts", I meant "12 volts"

Did you test the starter after pulling it?

neighborbill said:

Excellent,
then what I am going to do, will work.
All this because it is so difficult to remove the starter and solenoid from the Bx1500.. Clearances are almost impossible without removing a lot of parts.

Click to expand...

You indicated there is a solenoid on the starter. As you were already told, the solenoid shifts the drive into the flywheel, thus you cannot eliminate the solenoid. Take the advice of someone who has rebuilt thousands of starters. if it is a Denso starter, the contacts may solve it. If you replace the solenoid on another design/OEM starter it may resolve it.

I probably didn't make it clear.
I will be paralleling the 12 volts from the now connected solenoid so that the plunger will operate, to the actuator coils on the aux relay to the key 12 ignition pin.
Therefore the solenoid will activate on both original and aux at the same time. This will by pass contacts in the existing solenoid and instead placing a current path from the battery threw aux contacts to starter motor. Effectively by passing the solenoid contacts on that starter motor now.

VRR.DYNDNS>BIZ said:

You indicated there is a solenoid on the starter. As you were already told, the solenoid shifts the drive into the flywheel, thus you cannot eliminate the solenoid. Take the advice of someone who has rebuilt thousands of starters. if it is a Denso starter, the contacts may solve it. If you replace the solenoid on another design/OEM starter it may resolve it.

Click to expand...

Gym123 said:

Did you test the starter after pulling it?

Click to expand...

I haven't pulled the starter yet.
I live in Wisconsin and this means no more work until Spring.
Starter works fine.
Solenoid kicks in and out
No current to the starter motor after 12 volts applied to solenoid.

Had a similar issue with BX22, starter would not kick in reliabily. Had unit rebuilt and still had the same problem. I check the voltage at the starter bendix and found I was only getting 8 volts to it which was not enough to kick in the solenoid reliably. The voltage drop was from all the safety switches. The power from the start key would go to the seat safety switch, and then to the PTO engage safety, and then to the starter. Over time the resistance increase in them and cause a voltage drop. So what I did is put in another relay which would send power from the battery directly to the bendix. The 8 volts from the starter key was sufficient to trigger the new relay. So all my safetys still work and the starter fired everytime after that.

whocares said:

Had a similar issue with BX22, starter would not kick in reliabily. Had unit rebuilt and still had the same problem. I check the voltage at the starter bendix and found I was only getting 8 volts to it which was not enough to kick in the solenoid reliably. The voltage drop was from all the safety switches. The power from the start key would go to the seat safety switch, and then to the PTO engage safety, and then to the starter. Over time the resistance increase in them and cause a voltage drop. So what I did is put in another relay which would send power from the battery directly to the bendix. The 8 volts from the starter key was sufficient to trigger the new relay. So all my safetys still work and the starter fired everytime after that.

Click to expand...

This is pretty much what I am going to do. I don't have the 4 volt drop like you have though. I connected 12 volt from the battery to the solenoid through a starter hand held switch. Solenoid kicked in but no starter motor turning. contacts are not letting current flow through

neighborbill said:

I haven't pulled the starter yet.
I live in Wisconsin and this means no more work until Spring.
Starter works fine.
Solenoid kicks in and out
No current to the starter motor after 12 volts applied to solenoid.

Click to expand...

I'm in the Milwaukee area- that's the reason I installed a heater in my garage.

Nothing coming out of the solenoid= bad solenoid, possibly from excessive crank times with discharged/old battery, possibly from poor quality if this part is a wide spread problem.

When I went through my Ariens not long after I got it, in the process of lubricating the starter Bendix, I found that the gear is metal, but the rest is plastic- having worked as a boat mechanic, I thought that was great because annual servicing of the starter is probably the most ignored item, after the flame arrester.