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Guys, I presently have a Cub LT1050 Lawn Tractor with a few modifications I've made from 2007 with a 26 hp Kohler Courage Motor that has served me very well for 160 hours or so. Still runs like a top, I just want to upgrade and cut down my mowing time drastically. I am now looking to move up into a mid range machine. I cut my yard which is about 3/4 acre as well as a few yards here and there on the side. I've narrowed it down to two machines after hours and hours of researching on-line and a visit to see the Bad Boy in person after store hours (was sitting outside chained down allowing me to sit on it etc.)

Gravely ZT HD

Advantages:
Gravely name, tons of great reviews, 5.5" mower deck depth I believe which I think aids in handling very tall/thick grass, 8mph top speed, better warranty I believe, better deck height adjustment method (foot and pin)
Cons:
Dealer not as close (have not looked honestly but at least 30 miles I would assume), not quite as heavy duty as the bad boy from what I can ascertain on paper

Bad Boy ZT Elite
Advantages:
Ridiculous 7 gauge deck, commercial spindles, 2x2 box tube frame, dealer is 5 minutes from my house, appears to have every commercial feature except for motors which include the residential Kawy or Kohler motor which is the same story with the ZT HD and appears to be the case for all mowers until you get in the $6000 range.
Cons:
Warranty not as good, 7mph, electric deck height adjust which is hard to duplicate height setting from what I gather

At this point the bad boy machine appears to be the better offering and about $500 cheaper give or take. The only draw back is the limited reviews for the 2014 machine which I understand has been upgraded substantially from prior year models and 7mph vs 8mph of the gravely. Both machines offer the 3100 transmissions. I am pretty handy and intend to do most of my service myself. All of this said what do folks think given the choices I've laid out?

I don't want to spend any more than $5500 tops and as I indicated before I don't believe you can find a machine with a commercial motor for this cost unless going used. I'm open to suggestions outside of the two machines listed; however, I'd like the discussion to revolve around the two machines listed.

Thanks a bunch for any help offered!

Nick

Looks like I do in fact have a Gravely dealer in the same vicinity as the Bad Boy dealer so scratch that advantage for Bad Boy.

Toro Titan zx4800 should be added to the list it looks like. Fastest of the bunch at 8.5mph, bigger frame, and perhaps the best warranty with the frame having a lifetime warranty.

I purchased a Gravely ZT HD-44 two months ago. The Kawasaki engine is flawless and has handled everything I have thrown at it. The hydros on the HD are series 3100, which are considered commercial quality. In my opinion, top speed is not a consideration for purchase, as you can only mow as fast as the ground conditions will allow. I looked at the Gravely, Toro, and Hustler models; but decided on the Gravely and have no buyers remorse on my decision.

BigUgly said:

I purchased a Gravely ZT HD-44 two months ago. The Kawasaki engine is flawless and has handled everything I have thrown at it. The hydros on the HD are series 3100, which are considered commercial quality. In my opinion, top speed is not a consideration for purchase, as you can only mow as fast as the ground conditions will allow. I looked at the Gravely, Toro, and Hustler models; but decided on the Gravely and have no buyers remorse on my decision.

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Thanks for your reply. Something the 44 would have going for it is that I could actually load that machine right in the back of my truck. Or it would allow me to keep trailer costs a bit lower given 4x7 trailers are a bit cheaper. Again, a consideration.

NickTF said:

Guys, I presently have a Cub LT1050 Lawn Tractor with a few modifications I've made from 2007 with a 26 hp Kohler Courage Motor that has served me very well for 160 hours or so. Still runs like a top, I just want to upgrade and cut down my mowing time drastically. I am now looking to move up into a mid range machine. I cut my yard which is about 3/4 acre as well as a few yards here and there on the side. I've narrowed it down to two machines after hours and hours of researching on-line and a visit to see the Bad Boy in person after store hours (was sitting outside chained down allowing me to sit on it etc.)

Gravely ZT HD

Advantages:
Gravely name, tons of great reviews, 5.5" mower deck depth I believe which I think aids in handling very tall/thick grass, 8mph top speed, better warranty I believe, better deck height adjustment method (foot and pin)
Cons:
Dealer not as close (have not looked honestly but at least 30 miles I would assume), not quite as heavy duty as the bad boy from what I can ascertain on paper

Bad Boy ZT Elite
Advantages:
Ridiculous 7 gauge deck, commercial spindles, 2x2 box tube frame, dealer is 5 minutes from my house, appears to have every commercial feature except for motors which include the residential Kawy or Kohler motor which is the same story with the ZT HD and appears to be the case for all mowers until you get in the $6000 range.
Cons:
Warranty not as good, 7mph, electric deck height adjust which is hard to duplicate height setting from what I gather

At this point the bad boy machine appears to be the better offering and about $500 cheaper give or take. The only draw back is the limited reviews for the 2014 machine which I understand has been upgraded substantially from prior year models and 7mph vs 8mph of the gravely. Both machines offer the 3100 transmissions. I am pretty handy and intend to do most of my service myself. All of this said what do folks think given the choices I've laid out?

I don't want to spend any more than $5500 tops and as I indicated before I don't believe you can find a machine with a commercial motor for this cost unless going used. I'm open to suggestions outside of the two machines listed; however, I'd like the discussion to revolve around the two machines listed.

Thanks a bunch for any help offered!

Nick

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Not just because I own one, but the Gravely is the better choice hands down. Cast iron spindles w/3yr warranty, tapered roller bearings and 3/8" front caster forks to name a few). I almost pulled the trigger on a Bad Boy Outlaw, but even with the 5gauge deck it wasn't the same quality machine as my Gravely. When I was shopping in 2012 the Bad Boy ZTR's had very "mixed" user reviews(they either loved them or hated them). You won't regret investing in a Gravely.......I don't!!!

djdicetn said:

Not just because I own one, but the Gravely is the better choice hands down. Cast iron spindles w/3yr warranty, tapered roller bearings and 3/8" front caster forks to name a few). I almost pulled the trigger on a Bad Boy Outlaw, but even with the 5gauge deck it wasn't the same quality machine as my Gravely. When I was shopping in 2012 the Bad Boy ZTR's had very "mixed" user reviews(they either loved them or hated them). You won't regret investing in a Gravely.......I don't!!!

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Thanks for the input! For the sake of comparison the Bad Boy machine has larger/thicker 1/2" forks but I'm not certain regarding their bearing structure. Details are limited but the spindles are their commercial units from what I understand. It seems of the three mowers this thread is revolving around the spindles potentially most suspect are on the toro machine but I'm all ears if I'm off on that. With all the changes throughout the years on the different lines of machines it is easy to confuse parts/specifications with older year machines. From what I gather the Toro changed their offering up in 2013 and the Bad Boy in 2014. Not sure about the Gravely.

Interesting, the Toro markets the "FR" Kawasaki motor as commercial grade. Regardless, I believe they offer a 3 year warranty on the motor which is worth something. Not sure if the Gravely/Bad Boy offers such a warranty on the motor or if that warranty originates from Kawasaki?

I will not be making a purchase until I sell a flat bed car trailer I no longer need which I'm in the process of doing so this thread is intended for continuing input from the members here which I'm sure have all done the exhaustive research I have. Thanks guys!

NickTF said:

Thanks for the input! For the sake of comparison the Bad Boy machine has larger/thicker 1/2" forks but I'm not certain regarding their bearing structure. Details are limited but the spindles are their commercial units from what I understand. It seems of the three mowers this thread is revolving around the spindles potentially most suspect are on the toro machine but I'm all ears if I'm off on that. With all the changes throughout the years on the different lines of machines it is easy to confuse parts/specifications with older year machines. From what I gather the Toro changed their offering up in 2013 and the Bad Boy in 2014. Not sure about the Gravely.

Interesting, the Toro markets the "FR" Kawasaki motor as commercial grade. Regardless, I believe they offer a 3 year warranty on the motor which is worth something. Not sure if the Gravely/Bad Boy offers such a warranty on the motor or if that warranty originates from Kawasaki?

I will not be making a purchase until I sell a flat bed car trailer I no longer need which I'm in the process of doing so this thread is intended for continuing input from the members here which I'm sure have all done the exhaustive research I have. Thanks guys!

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FYI, Kawasaki defines their engine series as FR=Residential, FS=Heavy Duty and FX=Commercial. I believe these categories are based upon that engine serie's estimated lifespan in hours. In reality, many consider the FS Heavy Duty series as "commercial quality" but I've never heard of the FR series being referenced as that. Yes, all engine warranties for ZTR are from the engine manufacturer but of course would be serviced at the dealer where the ZTR was purchased. Look carefully at warranty information as most brands vary between the different series they offer in their lineup, some have specific warranties for single components(decks, spindles, etc.) and almost all of them have a years and/or hours whichever comes first. The "better quality" Residential ZTR's will specifically carry a "Consumer" AND "Commercial" warranty which reflects the heavy duty build(although MOST of it's components will be residential quality).

For instance, in the Gravely line, the ZT HD is considered their high-end Residential series with a 3 Year Consumer Warranty(not certain of the Hours limitation) but it also has a 1 Year Commercial Warranty. The frame and deck shell specifically have a 5 Year Warranty and the spindles a 3 Year. Now, when you step up into their Commercial lineup, like my Pro-Turn 100XDZ, you will find they offer a 3 Year Consumer/2 Year Commercial/1,000 Hour "bumper to bumper" Warranty, but the Deck & Frame(it has their X-Factor commercial deck) has a Lifetime Warranty and the spindles the same 3 Year. The Pro-Turn 400 XDZ(their top-of-the-line Commercial) ups the Commercial Warranty to 3 Years. These warranty differences are common across all brands and IMHO Toro and Hustler have some of the best warranties available.

But if you look at Toro, the Titan series(similar to the Gravely ZT HD) has a 3 Year/240 Hour Warranty(Lifetime Frame) in the ZX entry line and the Titan MX ups that to 3 Year/400 Hours(also Lifetime Frame). Now when you step up into Toro's Commercial Z-Master series you start getting some serious warranties(2000 models have 4 Year/500 Hours; 3000/5000/6000 models have 5 Year/1,200 Hours....all have the Lifetime Frame). Length of warranties are indeed important, but a dealer you feel comfortable is really more important(most likely any major problems will surface in the first couple of years anyway). You are doing the right thing by researching thoroughly and not just jumping into a purchase you may regret. There's a LOT to ZTR "technology" to sort out along with pricing and warranties and I spent about 6 months on these forums researching and asking questions, just like you, to help me make an educated choice. I'm sure you will get the ZTR that's best suited for your needs and budget!!

djdicetn said:

FYI, Kawasaki defines their engine series as FR=Residential, FS=Heavy Duty and FX=Commercial. I believe these categories are based upon that engine serie's estimated lifespan in hours. In reality, many consider the FS Heavy Duty series as "commercial quality" but I've never heard of the FR series being referenced as that. Yes, all engine warranties for ZTR are from the engine manufacturer but of course would be serviced at the dealer where the ZTR was purchased. Look carefully at warranty information as most brands vary between the different series they offer in their lineup, some have specific warranties for single components(decks, spindles, etc.) and almost all of them have a years and/or hours whichever comes first. The "better quality" Residential ZTR's will specifically carry a "Consumer" AND "Commercial" warranty which reflects the heavy duty build(although MOST of it's components will be residential quality). For instance, in the Gravely line, the ZT HD is considered their high-end Residential series with a 3 Year Consumer Warranty(not certain of the Hours limitation) but it also has a 1 Year Commercial Warranty.

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Great info on the Kawasaki engines...almost pulled the trigger on a Gravely ZT HD myself. The problem was the dealer was 3 weeks out of getting shipments on most of his gravely lineup.

Yes, very good info presented above. I too understood the fr motors to be residential but Toro is pushing them as commercial going so far as to say they are backed by a 3-year commercial warranty!

NickTF said:

Yes, very good info presented above. I too understood the fr motors to be residential but Toro is pushing them as commercial going so far as to say they are backed by a 3-year commercial warranty!

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I believe most engines(regardless of brand or usage rating) carry a 3 Year warranty(I could be wrong). I do know that for Kawasaki engines they warranty all of their engines for 3 Years. When you get into the "Commercial" lines for any brand engines you get upgraded components for more adverse mowing conditions(like the dual stage air filters). Most likely they have upgraded internal components as well that give better torque, reliability and performance under harsh conditions(like mowing 8-10 hours/day).
Toro should NOT be advertising the Kawa FR series as "Commercial". I have a 2012 Toro Titan brochure from when I was looking at them. They come standard with the FR and nowhere in the material do they mention "Commercial engines". Where are you getting that info(verbally, from the dealer)??? I haven't been to the Toro website in a while, so don't know what they may have there.

djdicetn said:

I believe most engines(regardless of brand or usage rating) carry a 3 Year warranty(I could be wrong). I do know that for Kawasaki engines they warranty all of their engines for 3 Years. When you get into the "Commercial" lines for any brand engines you get upgraded components for more adverse mowing conditions(like the dual stage air filters). Most likely they have upgraded internal components as well that give better torque, reliability and performance under harsh conditions(like mowing 8-10 hours/day).
Toro should NOT be advertising the Kawa FR series as "Commercial". I have a 2012 Toro Titan brochure from when I was looking at them. They come standard with the FR and nowhere in the material do they mention "Commercial engines". Where are you getting that info(verbally, from the dealer)??? I haven't been to the Toro website in a while, so don't know what they may have there.

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Right on their website. Go have a quick look. Trust me I went to Kawasakis page and saw the fr motors being advertised as residential so I am skeptical as you are!

Can someone chime in on what the life expectancy of a Kawasaki FR or Kohler Pro 7000 motor would like like in comparison to that of a Kawasaki FS or Briggs and Straton Cyclonic motor? Considering moving up a bit in price and if hour expectancy is twice as much than I may consider the extra 700-800 to a CZT Elite, etc.

NickTF said:

Right on their website. Go have a quick look. Trust me I went to Kawasakis page and saw the fr motors being advertised as residential so I am skeptical as you are!

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Can't find anything on the Toro website(can you go to the webpage you saw that on and copy & paste the link here), but they may be regurgitating what I read on the kawpower.com website. On the "engine webpage" they "describe" the FR, FS & FX series as below:

FR - Commercial-grade power for heavy-duty residential use.

FS - Specifically engineered for demanding landscape work.

FX - Top of the line power and reliability for high-demand use.

Now if you click on the FR series it says: "For decades, professionals have known the value of having a Kawasaki engine in their equipment. Now homeowners can enjoy the same Kawasaki power in their mowers. Introducing the all-new FR Series engines featuring four-cycle V-twin powerplants which range in size from 18hp to 26hp. They deliver smooth power output, quieter operation, outstanding durability and compact design."

For the FS it says: "Kawasaki FS Series engines are engineered to be high powered but still environmentally friendly. They feature a compact, 90ｰ V-twin design with overhead V-valve, as well as an internally vented carburetor with a fuel shut-off solenoid. There is also a dual element air filter with a plastic blower housing that makes for quieter operation."

For the FX it says: "Kawasaki FX Series are compact, 90-degree V-twin engines which feature hemispherical combustion chambers and overhead V-valve technology that helps ensure low emissions, high power, and smooth operation. Other features include a twin barrel, internally vented carburetor with fuel shut-off solenoid, large capacity fuel pump, and dual stage canister air filter."

Soooooooo, based upon the verbiage used on the Kawasaki website you indeed could advertise the FR series as "commercial-grade" engines. Yet the details clearly state that the FR series was designed for homeowner use. It's all about how you interpret the information. To me(my personal opinion), I consider the FR series an appropriate engine for homeowners who mow 1-2 acres or less weekly, the FS series an appropriate engine for homeowners with 2-4 acres who mow weekly or a small lawn maintenance business that may average 2-4 hours of mowing daily and the FX series for the large lawn maintenance business that mows 8 or more hours daily. At least that's how I would choose if I fell into those owner categories. Of course that's not completely realistic since many, like myself, do not mow like a large lawn maintenance company(I am a homeowner who mows 1.5 acres weekly)....yet I bought a ZTR with a Kawasaki FX engine:0)

NickTF said:

Can someone chime in on what the life expectancy of a Kawasaki FR or Kohler Pro 7000 motor would like like in comparison to that of a Kawasaki FS or Briggs and Straton Cyclonic motor? Considering moving up a bit in price and if hour expectancy is twice as much than I may consider the extra 700-800 to a CZT Elite, etc.

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I looked on the Kawasaki website, but could not find any info about the life expectancy "hour ratings" for their FR, FS and FX engines. I know I've seen it somewhere but can't put my finger on it:0(
Maybe another user knows where that information is.....BTW I looked at the Kohler Pro 7000 on a Bad Boy at TSC and I was NOT impressed at the looks of it(appears kinda cheap, especially the valve covers). IMHO, you would be fine with the Kawa FR or FS engine as well as the Briggs Cyclonic(although I'm not too big on B & S after a bad experience with an Intek). All-in-all I think that most users on these forums will agree that the Kawasaki is currently the best performing, longest lasting 4-cycle small engine on the market.

djdicetn said:

I looked on the Kawasaki website, but could not find any info about the life expectancy "hour ratings" for their FR, FS and FX engines. I know I've seen it somewhere but can't put my finger on it:0( Maybe another user knows where that information is.....BTW I looked at the Kohler Pro 7000 on a Bad Boy at TSC and I was NOT impressed at the looks of it(appears kinda cheap, especially the valve covers). IMHO, you would be fine with the Kawa FR or FS engine as well as the Briggs Cyclonic(although I'm not too big on B & S after a bad experience with an Intek). All-in-all I think that most users on these forums will agree that the Kawasaki is currently the best performing, longest lasting 4-cycle small engine on the market.

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On my actual Kawasaki FS engine the sticker only rates it at 500 hours. I've heard that's just put on for EPA standards sake because it will likely fall out of standards over time. I could be wrong because I read that EPA thing on this site from another user.

Boy, a few days go by and next thing you know I've changed my mind all together!

Here are my final contenders:
Toro Z Master 2000 - 20.5 HP FX Kawasaki, 3400 drives, 8.5 mph, 48" turbo force deck, heavy duty non serviceable spindles (confused not sure if iron or aluminum), 926 lbs
Warranty:
Z Masterï½® 2000 Series Mowers 4 years or 500 hours2
é«*ngines4 3 years
彦rame Lifetime (original owner only)3

Snapper Pro SX125xt - 25HP Briggs Commercial Turf Cyclonic, 3400 drives, 10 mph, 52" ICD deck, cast aluminum greasable spindles, 1059lbs
Warranty:
4-Year (48 months) or 500 hours, whichever occurs first. Unlimited hours during the first 2 years (24 months). Belts, tires, brake pads, hoses, battery, blades: 90 days
Engine: 3 years manufacturer (including Briggs)

The Snapper Pro is $5799 with the Briggs, $5999 with the Kawasaki FS and I'm not certain the FS is any better than the Commercial Turf Briggs. I can grab the Toro for the same price.

The Snapper will be able to get the task done quicker. Anything else to consider, they appear very evenly matched with the Snapper a bit faster and in theory the Toro's motor lasting longer (FX).

Both very good mowers...both should serve your needs well. Only concern I have is non-serviceable spindles because I'm not familiar with how they hold up over time. Maybe someone on this site will know more about non-serviceable spindles.

DSepe said:

Both very good mowers...both should serve your needs well. Only concern I have is non-serviceable spindles because I'm not familiar with how they hold up over time. Maybe someone on this site will know more about non-serviceable spindles.

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If your worried about the non-serviceable spindles don't be, there actually better than the others and a lot less hassle. My Toro Has sealed bearings in the front wheels and the Spindles and I've been running it for almost three years, six days a week in business and have never had an issue. I used ti think the same as you, if it doesn't have a zerk I didn't want it but greasing these things every 25 hrs is a load of crap.Sealed bearings are the only way to go. The Toro Z Master 2 or 3000 would be they way I'd go, it's the best in your final contenders list. I wouldn't touch anything with a B&S engine.
As far as how long or how many hours an engine will last and the Kawasaki FS engine the sticker only rating it for or at 500 hours I have to laugh at that, somebody is mistaking that. I've seen guys running the Fs and Fx that have over 2000 hours on there engines and there still running strong. The FS on my Grandstand has almost 700 and it still runs like a new engine.

Ric said:

If your worried about the non-serviceable spindles don't be, there actually better than the others and a lot less hassle. My Toro Has sealed bearings in the front wheels and the Spindles and I've been running it for almost three years, six days a week in business and have never had an issue. I used ti think the same as you, if it doesn't have a zerk I didn't want it but greasing these things every 25 hrs is a load of crap.Sealed bearings are the only way to go. The Toro Z Master 2 or 3000 would be they way I'd go, it's the best in your final contenders list. I wouldn't touch anything with a B&S engine. As far as how long or how many hours an engine will last and the Kawasaki FS engine the sticker only rating it for or at 500 hours I have to laugh at that, somebody is mistaking that. I've seen guys running the Fs and Fx that have over 2000 hours on there engines and there still running strong. The FS on my Grandstand has almost 700 and it still runs like a new engine.

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Well looks like that is settled by Ric. Non-greasable bearings should hold up fine. He also made me feel better about my Kawasaki FS...upon further inspection that 500 hour thing is basically saying it will comply with EPA standards for at least 500 hours nothing more. Not an engine lifetime expectancy whatsoever or anything. Unless it's a Vanguard made in partnership with Daihatsu, stay away from the B&S Commercial Turf which is a beefed up Intek engine. Just look at Intek reviews on the official B&S website...nuff said. The commercial turf cyclonic is so new it only has 3 reviews.

DSepe said:

Well looks like that is settled by Ric. Non-greasable bearings should hold up fine. He also made me feel better about my Kawasaki FS...upon further inspection that 500 hour thing is basically saying it will comply with EPA standards for at least 500 hours nothing more. Not an engine lifetime expectancy whatsoever or anything. Unless it's a Vanguard made in partnership with Daihatsu. Stay away from the B&S Commercial Turf which is a beefed up Intek engine. Just look at Intek reviews on the official B&S website...nuff said. The commercial turf cyclonic is so new it only has 3 reviews.

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Well the question then becomes what if the Snapper Pro is optioned with the FS Kawasaki motor........ The snapper definitely would seem to have a productivity advantage but I don't want to give away 1000-500 hours of life expectancy in the process. I guess my exhaustive research will now move on to the FX vs FS motors from Kawasaki..........

NickTF said:

Well the question then becomes what if the Snapper Pro is optioned with the FS Kawasaki motor........ The snapper definitely would seem to have a productivity advantage but I don't want to give away 1000-500 hours of life expectancy in the process. I guess my exhaustive research will now move on to the FX vs FS motors from Kawasaki..........

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Good idea Nick I'm curious what you find. In my findings from the website all I notice in description difference is what type of air filters they use. I'm curious to know every single difference. Good luck on search let us know how it goes.

NickTF said:

Well the question then becomes what if the Snapper Pro is optioned with the FS Kawasaki motor........ The snapper definitely would seem to have a productivity advantage but I don't want to give away 1000-500 hours of life expectancy in the process. I guess my exhaustive research will now move on to the FX vs FS motors from Kawasaki..........

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Save your self some money. You as a home Owner don't need anything more than the FS Kawasaki engine. I believe you said at the start that you were cutting like 3/4 of acre, if so The Fs is all you need to buy. The FX would be over kill for what your mowing. I use the Fs 541 on the Grandstand every day except Sunday. It's a 15hp and I mow 70 plus yards a week. If you can afford the FX or it happens to come on the mower you want to buy fine but if you can get the mower with the FS save your money. Change the oil and oil filter ever 50 hours and the FS will out live you.

Ric said:

Save your self some money. You as a home Owner don't need anything more than the FS Kawasaki engine. I believe you said at the start that you were cutting like 3/4 of acre, if so The Fs is all you need to buy. The FX would be over kill for what your mowing. I use the Fs 541 on the Grandstand every day except Sunday. It's a 15hp and I mow 70 plus yards a week. If you can afford the FX or it happens to come on the mower you want to buy fine but if you can get the mower with the FS save your money. Change the oil and oil filter ever 50 hours and the FS will out live you.

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Thanks Ric since your mowing commercially on a FS I think your recommendations are definitely worth worth a listen. I would have really considered a Toro based on what you run for your business...unfortunately no dealers were even close to my small town.

DSepe said:

Thanks Ric since your mowing commercially on a FS I think your recommendations are definitely worth worth a listen. I would have really considered a Toro based on what you run for your business...unfortunately no dealers were even close to my small town.

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What dealers are nearby. Toro also owns Exmark. How about Worldlawn or Encore Dealers?

DSepe said:

Well looks like that is settled by Ric. Non-greasable bearings should hold up fine. He also made me feel better about my Kawasaki FS...upon further inspection that 500 hour thing is basically saying it will comply with EPA standards for at least 500 hours nothing more. Not an engine lifetime expectancy whatsoever or anything. Unless it's a Vanguard made in partnership with Daihatsu, stay away from the B&S Commercial Turf which is a beefed up Intek engine. Just look at Intek reviews on the official B&S website...nuff said. The commercial turf cyclonic is so new it only has 3 reviews.

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Yep, like usual user Ric is spot on with that advice. More and more manufacturers are going to the sealed bearings(wheels and blade spindles) and it sometimes stirs up quite a controversy. There have been significant advances in the design and materials used in sealed bearings over the last few years and their longevity greatly increased. I, too, was accustomed to a lawn tractor that had greases zerks in the blade spindles and I religiously lubed them every 25 hours. When I began shopping ZTR's in the summer of 2012 I found that MANY of the higher quality(Commercial) ZTR's had sealed bearings and was quite disappointed that you could not perform maintenance on something so important(especially on such expensive mowers). I asked every dealer why and the resounding response was that not only were the sealed bearings just as good....but that for years some manufacturers were actually adding grease zerks on spindles that contained "sealed bearings". The Gravely dealer mechanic actually showed me a spindle that they had rebuilt and indeed the original bearings that were removed were completely sealed and the grease zerks only filled the spindle cavity around the bearings and never touched an actual bearing. He told me the manufacturers were doing that because the consumers demanded grease zerks and that the addition of them was nothing more than a placebo to satisfy consumers who insisted on maintaining their spindles. And I got this same story from 4-5 different dealers as well as on forums like this. The more I researched this the more I was convinced that sealed bearings were not a concern. The Gravely mechanic assured me that the life expectancy on the sealed bearings used on my Pro-Turn was easily 2,500-3,000 hours and were very much good for the expected lifetime of most ZTR's. And yes...the improvements to sealed bearings were propagated by professional landscapers who needed the time they had to devote to maintenance reduced.

NickTF said:

Well the question then becomes what if the Snapper Pro is optioned with the FS Kawasaki motor........ The snapper definitely would seem to have a productivity advantage but I don't want to give away 1000-500 hours of life expectancy in the process. I guess my exhaustive research will now move on to the FX vs FS motors from Kawasaki..........

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I, like user Ric, have recommended that you go with the Toro Z-Master. I'm not saying that the Snapper Pro isn't a good ZTR, but you said you could get the Z-Master 2000 for around the same price and the Turbo-Force deck is much better than the ICD deck. If you want to throw a little extra money into your investment, upgrade to the Z-Master 3000 series. You'll have every head in your neighborhood turning(even more after you are finished mowing your lawn:0)

For what its worth, I was looking at the same two plus the Exmark Pioneer S this spring. After all the specs research, opinion, etc. I decided, after test riding all three the Pioneer S offered the best ride, quality, and some commercial details was the choice for me. Best for the money paid in my opinion. Had if for about a month now. Mow 3 acre lawn and some around my father in laws farm. I find myself more impressed with each mow. Exmark dominates commercial and serious residential mowers in my area....and I see why. For me important to have deal local as well. Sure you will find your best ride for you. These are some good guys on this site and it really helped me with opinions and valuable information in what to look for. You are in the right place.

I really do appreciate all the good info here guys thanks! I have the dealer for the Toro coming to the house tomorrow to look at my Cub LT1050 so we'll see how it goes. I'm leaning to the zx-2000 which is already far more than I need for my yard and likely far more than I need for picking up a few yards to cut in addition to mine on the side. Exciting times.........!!!!

NickTF said:

I really do appreciate all the good info here guys thanks! I have the dealer for the Toro coming to the house tomorrow to look at my Cub LT1050 so we'll see how it goes. I'm leaning to the zx-2000 which is already far more than I need for my yard and likely far more than I need for picking up a few yards to cut in addition to mine on the side. Exciting times.........!!!!

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Like most of us when we began shopping ZTR's.......you've progressed from considering a Gravely ZT HD and Bad Boy ZT Elite to looking to buy a Toro Z-Master 2000 or Snapper Pro(a quantum leap:0)
For what you are mowing, the 48" Z-Master will be plenty large enough and IMHO the 52" Snapper Pro was a little bit large of a deck for your needs. We all tend to get more than we really need(I've only got a 1.5 acre lot I and bought a 52" Commercial Gravely:0)
But for the price difference between the Bad Boy and the Z-Master you will have a machine that will most likely outlive you!! That's why I "overbought" as a "retirement investment". I figure my son and possibly my grandson will get many years of service out of my Gravely when I'm gone and no longer need it!!

djdicetn said:

Like most of us when we began shopping ZTR's.......you've progressed from considering a Gravely ZT HD and Bad Boy ZT Elite to looking to buy a Toro Z-Master 2000 or Snapper Pro(a quantum leap:0) For what you are mowing, the 48" Z-Master will be plenty large enough and IMHO the 52" Snapper Pro was a little bit large of a deck for your needs. We all tend to get more than we really need(I've only got a 1.5 acre lot I and bought a 52" Commercial Gravely:0) But for the price difference between the Bad Boy and the Z-Master you will have a machine that will most likely outlive you!! That's why I "overbought" as a "retirement investment". I figure my son and possibly my grandson will get many years of service out of my Gravely when I'm gone and no longer need it!!

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I had the same problem also. I was looking at a 8 thousand dollar bob-cat before I realized that was way overkill for my 1.3 acre lot. Good idea over buying with the thought of handing it down to your kid or grandkid though.

DSepe said:

I had the same problem also. I was looking at a 8 thousand dollar bob-cat before I realized that was way overkill for my 1.3 acre lot. Good idea over buying with the thought of handing it down to your kid or grand-kid though.

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Over buying or overkill is something that most people talk themselves into and if they don't talk themselves into it a salesman will do it for them. Buying a mower, a blower or trimmer it's all the same, your not buying enough for the job or your buying to much for the job. I've seen it all to often that people rely on ads from home depot or lowes that really don't represent the product there looking to or need to buy to get home and find that it really doesn't do the job.
Buying with the thought of handing it down to your kid or grand-kid although a good thought is really something you shouldn't worry about. Hey if it happens fine but in today's market where 90% of what you buy today being throw a way items I think it or that thought is pretty irrelevant.

I can certainly appreciate Ric's input, it is good to bring balance into forums which often, much like the salesman, push you into something you don't really need. I am expecting the mowers I've selected to be way overkill but then again I drive around a low 12 second 12v mechanical dodge diesel that is way overkill. If I google about my Cub LT1050 all I hear is bad stuff. After putting on bagger blades for high lift and great deck discharge and replacing the pos factory oil drain with a pipe nipple, 90, and a plug I couldn't be happier with the machine and it has been great through 154 hours to date. Everyone has to find their happy medium. Again, I'm buying this machine with the intentions of cutting yards on the side and I've always found investing in top shelf equipment makes the job 10 times as enjoyable!

NickTF said:

I can certainly appreciate Ric's input, it is good to bring balance into forums which often, much like the salesman, push you into something you don't really need. I am expecting the mowers I've selected to be way overkill but then again I drive around a low 12 second 12v mechanical dodge diesel that is way overkill. If I google about my Cub LT1050 all I hear is bad stuff. After putting on bagger blades for high lift and great deck discharge and replacing the pos factory oil drain with a pipe nipple, 90, and a plug I couldn't be happier with the machine and it has been great through 154 hours to date. Everyone has to find their happy medium. Again, I'm buying this machine with the intentions of cutting yards on the side and I've always found investing in top shelf equipment makes the job 10 times as enjoyable!

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Yep good equipment that works consistently trumps any premium you have to pay. I had a POS Poulan trimmer I fought for 8 years before I broke down and got a Stihl...worth every extra penny I spent just so I don't have the hassle anymore.

DSepe said:

Yep good equipment that works consistently trumps any premium you have to pay. I had a POS Poulan trimmer I fought for 8 years before I broke down and got a Stihl...worth every extra penny I spent just so I don't have the hassle anymore.

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I think there's good quality equipment that can be had without having to pay a premium price, especially for the residential operators. I've always been someone who believed in buying the right equipment for a job and paying the premium for someone like myself who depends on a piece of equipment for a living is another thing entirely.

Ric said:

I think there's good quality equipment that can be had without having to pay a premium price, especially for the residential operators. I've always been someone who believed in buying the right equipment for a job and paying the premium for someone like myself who depends on a piece of equipment for a living is another thing entirely.

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The problem with that is that we homeowners want to have what the big boys use:0)

And, like you, we want to feel comfortable that when we need the equipment it just works....aside from regular maintenance we don't have to worry about the inconvenience of breakdowns or the expense of repairs. My thought, since I was getting ready to retire, was that I could spend a little more up front and then I wouldn't have any major surprise expenses on a retirement budget(like a major repair or even worse replacing a ZTR). When you do the math on price and years of trouble free service overkill starts making sense even for a homeowner like me.

Ric said:

I think there's good quality equipment that can be had without having to pay a premium price, especially for the residential operators. I've always been someone who believed in buying the right equipment for a job and paying the premium for someone like myself who depends on a piece of equipment for a living is another thing entirely.

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All I'm saying is I'd rather buy a homeowner trimmer built by Stihl from a dealer that might be considered a premium by some to have it work properly. With that cheap trimmer it was a hassle to get working from year 1 on. Had the Stihl for 6 years with zero problems. Besides it's not like I bought a commercial grade trimmer....but I see your point.

48" Z-Master 2000 on the way! Got a $900 trade on my cub and the z-master for $6000! Only thing I can find to be concerned about is the 20.5hp rating of the Kawasaki fx motor but considering it is the exact same bore and stroke and compression as the motors advertised at slightly more hp within the fx series I'm not even certain there is a difference. Machine won't be here for two weeks so have to exercise patience!

http://www.lawnsite.com/archive/index.php/t-376248.html

My suspicion seems confirmed. From what I gather the difference is only in throttle shaft of the carb. My 651 is identical to the 730 except that the 730 opens the carb farther than my 651. Just checked the part numbers, the throttle shafts are different but the jets are the same between the 651 and 730.

Awesome!...may it serve you well. That 2 week wait is a killer though lol

NickTF said:

48" Z-Master 2000 on the way! Got a $900 trade on my cub and the z-master for $6000! Only thing I can find to be concerned about is the 20.5hp rating of the Kawasaki fx motor but considering it is the exact same bore and stroke and compression as the motors advertised at slightly more hp within the fx series I'm not even certain there is a difference. Machine won't be here for two weeks so have to exercise patience!

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Congratulations on the purchase, that ZTR should serve you well for many years to come!! Pretty decent deal as well.

P.S.
Post a picture when you get it home(we wanna see it:0)

I have used the mower three times now and I am flat out amazed how powerful the thing is! Also, the speed worries were a joke it feels like a four wheeler when you put the levers down lol! I've cut so far very wet thick grass, very tall dry grass, dusty leafy spots, and normal grass and the thing hardly ever bogs down. Very happy with the purchase thus far!!!

Nice looking 2000. Should keep mowing great over many seasons.

You did GOOD!:thumbsup:

Vanousb said:

Nice looking 2000. Should keep mowing great over many seasons.

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Ditto:0)