Export thread

Hi,

Servicing a Ferris 400s with B&S 440000 engine.

Manual shows three suitable oil filters;

• Standard Black PN 492932S
• High Efficiency Yellow PN96854
• High Efficiency Orange PN796576

The last two have extended oil change intervals.

Is this a marketing gimmick??

Anyone know what is the real practical difference between the three and how does an oil filter actually influence the oil change interval????

Hello S.,

I think the last 2 on your list have a slightly better filtering media inside.

Yes, some of it is marketing, but I give the OE manufacturer benefit of the doubt because they have a higher quality control standard than the aftermarket. B&S makes their own oil filters

You would have to study filter manufacturing and material qualities they use to gain a better understanding. Most of that information is kept under wraps by manufacturers.

A real marketing strategy that all filter manufacturers use is the quality tier of Good, Better and Best. The prices are also in tiers from low budget to higher priced.

To truly answer your question, you would need to the 3 filters then actually cut them open with a filter cutter. From there, study the differences of the internal components.

Thanks Auto Doc's,

"...slightly better filtering media..."

In general engine filters are judged on their ability to remove contaminants, down to a certain size (micron), while not unduly restricting flow (surface area)

For the most part filters remove solids ie products (metal) of friction. There may be a small ability to remove some byproduct of combustion (carbon) but this would be very limited, if at all.

All conventional filters impose a degree of resistance to flow. This means that the finer the filter media the more restriction there will be to flow. To much restriction and the fluid (oil) will not circulate effectively.

If you agree with the above, then the question is how does the Yellow filter extend oil change intervals AND why would B&S offer another, Orange, oil service life extending filter.

".....3 filters then actually cut them open...study the differences..."

I ask the Forum for this, as the collective wisdom/experince far out ways anything I have to offer.

I have seen no promotional/education material on why B&S offer no less than three diffrent (colour) oil filters for the same engine.

If you have the room, you can use FRAM TG3614, Microgard MSL 51348, NAPA Gold 1348, Carquest Premium 85348. The list is long.
I recommend that you stay away from Wix, Purolator, and Motorcraft. The glue is sloppy and can come off inside the filter. Also, their louver style center tube may not be made right and the louvers may be closed.

Thanks MParr - this is a customers near new engine, in a not so new chassis (origional B&S dropped a con rod).

With customers that have near new equipment, I tend to fit OM parts (B&S/Ferris in this case).

Still waiting on an informed answer as to why B&S specify no less than 3 oil filters, two of which magickly extend the crankcase oil service life

Skippydiesel said:

Thanks MParr - this is a customers near new engine, in a not so new chassis (origional B&S dropped a con rod).

With customers that have near new equipment, I tend to fit OM parts (B&S/Ferris in this case).

Still waiting on an informed answer as to why B&S specify no less than 3 oil filters, two of which magickly extend the crankcase oil service life

Click to expand...

Use the yellow one.
Black is the basic.
Yellow is the mid-grade.
Orange is the so-called extended life.
There may be a slightly longer model available.

The Yellow is what I have order - same as fitted when new.

The Orange has the same descriptor "High Efficiency...." as Yellow.

The Maintenance Schedule;

• Black filter - oil & filter replace 50 hrs
• Yellow & Orange filter - oil & filter replace 100 hrs

So no benefit, real or imagined with the Orange filter / compared with the Yellow.

I still don't know how the three filters deliver diffrent oil change intervals.

FYI: The Yellow (PN 696854) appears to have similar external dimensions to the Short Black (PN 492932S)

For my own ride on mowers, I use the B&S Long Black oil filter, (PN 491056) in the hope that the greater oil capacity (x2?) will have long term wear reduction benefits.

Skippydiesel said:

Thanks Auto Doc's,

"...slightly better filtering media..."

In general engine filters are judged on their ability to remove contaminants, down to a certain size (micron), while not unduly restricting flow (surface area)

For the most part filters remove solids ie products (metal) of friction. There may be a small ability to remove some byproduct of combustion (carbon) but this would be very limited, if at all.

All conventional filters impose a degree of resistance to flow. This means that the finer the filter media the more restriction there will be to flow. To much restriction and the fluid (oil) will not circulate effectively.

If you agree with the above, then the question is how does the Yellow filter extend oil change intervals AND why would B&S offer another, Orange, oil service life extending filter.

".....3 filters then actually cut them open...study the differences..."

I ask the Forum for this, as the collective wisdom/experince far out ways anything I have to offer.

I have seen no promotional/education material on why B&S offer no less than three diffrent (colour) oil filters for the same engine.

Click to expand...

Hello S.,

In 50 years of dealing with and equipment or automobiles, I have never seen extended oil changes also mean extended engine life.

So yes, this does equate to a sales tactic to make customers think they are saving money by extending (putting off) needed oil service maintenance.

I even know many (farmer types) customers who still use their old motor oil out of their vehicles in their other equipment. (It's the any oil works in a lawnmower mentality)

The 492932S and the 696854S filters are normally stocked by dealers and pushed in the dealer stockup program. The 798576 isn't normally stocked by dealers and is not included in the stockup program.

Briggs likes to push 5 different filters for most of their engines and 4 are dimensionally the same. The exception is the 491056 long filter, and the 798576 isn't marketed directly to dealers.

Sorry ILENGINE , I don't see how your comments give me understanding of why B&S recomend three diffrent (?) oil filters for the same engine.

Are you sort of saying its a marketing gimmick and there is no functional difference between the three filters?

Part of the issue is marketing. The 696854 is supposed to have better filtration than the 492932 filter, but can't find specs on either filter. And it appears that the 798576 orange filter is being possibly marketed toward Husqvarna, so could be the same filter as the 696854 but painted orange to match Husqvarna.

Oil life is determined by how much microscopic carbon blowby the oil's detergent package can suspend before sludging occurs. "Extended oil filter life" is marketing hype. The detergent package will saturate long before the filter needs changed.
Put whatever filter you want on but millions of engines have been just fine with a standard filter or no filter at all.
$0.02

ILENGINE said:

Part of the issue is marketing. The 696854 is supposed to have better filtration than the 492932 filter, but can't find specs on either filter. And it appears that the 798576 orange filter is being possibly marketed toward Husqvarna, so could be the same filter as the 696854 but painted orange to match Husqvarna.

Click to expand...

I think you might be right about the orange filters. Amazon lists them as primarily for Husqvarna application.

"Extended oil filter life"

Not oil filter life.

B&S are claiming an extended oil service interval from 50 -100hr oil change, with yellow & orange oil filters.

SOOOoooooo!

The consensuses would seem to be that the B&S Yellow & Orange oil filters are a marketing gimmick

Skippydiesel said:

SOOOoooooo!

The consensuses would seem to be that the B&S Yellow & Orange oil filters are a marketing gimmick

Click to expand...

The only differences are the paint color and the filtering media. The yellow filters will catch smaller particles.

MParr said:

The only differences are the paint color and the filtering media. The yellow filters will catch smaller particles.

Click to expand...

You suggest that the filter media will catch finer particle (smaller micron). If this be correct then its likly the filter will;

• Compared with say the Long Black, raise oil pressure, by restricting oil flow
• Block sooner (shorter service life) & further raise oil pressure, by catching more "stuff"

Do you know that it's a finer filter or are you speculating??

Skippydiesel said:

You suggest that the filter media will catch finer particle (smaller micron). If this be correct then its likly the filter will;

• Compared with say the Long Black, raise oil pressure, by restricting oil flow
• Block sooner (shorter service life) & further raise oil pressure, by catching more "stuff"

Do you know that it's a finer filter or are you speculating??

Click to expand...

AI is your friend.
The longer version of either color will capture more particulate.
There are better filters than B&S, Kohler, or Kawasaki. All three engine manufacturers outsource their oil filter manufacturing to the lowest bidder.

MParr said:

AI is your friend.

Click to expand...

Until it decides you are of no longer an use and orders you to be eliminated. Otherwords when it determines you are ugly useless bag of mostly water and therefore determines you should be disposed of permanently.

People start using your brains instead depending on an AI to tell you want to do................

MParr said:

AI is your friend.
The longer version of either color will capture more particulate.
There are better filters than B&S, Kohler, or Kawasaki. All three engine manufacturers outsource their oil filter manufacturing to the lowest bidder.

Click to expand...

Hello MParr,

AI is no friend of mine. It is like a clueless infant child trying to direct people's lives based on a mix of mostly garbage inputs it has gathered.

It is a data farming program and only gathers what appears to be the most popular opinions, then it reasons that they must be correct based on volume.

Inputs are easily manipulated to predetermine the outputs.

Taking an internet survey.
Need everyone to list the number of small engines that they have seen failed due to the oil filter and whether it was a cheap, standard or premium brand filter.

With all those cheap filters out there should be in the hundreds.

Hello H.,

I know auto shops will cut oil filters open has part of a diagnostic step, but I have never seen anyone bother with cutting open a small engine one.

I suspect that many "white box" generic oil filters have been the death of many engines. In a majority of cases, I have even seen new OE filters blamed right after an oil change because it was the most convenient explanation at the time.

Auto Doc's said:

Hello H.,

I know auto shops will cut oil filters open has part of a diagnostic step, but I have never seen anyone bother with cutting open a small engine one.

I suspect that many "white box" generic oil filters have been the death of many engines. In a majority of cases, I have even seen new OE filters blamed right after an oil change because it was the most convenient explanation at the time.

Click to expand...

Tell me how a "white box" filter can kill an engine?

Hammermechanicman said:

Tell me how a "white box" filter can kill an engine?

Click to expand...

Hello H.,

I only mentioned that I suspect them. I base this on the lower quality control standards usually associated with cheap parts.

Auto Doc's said:

Hello MParr,

AI is no friend of mine. It is like a clueless infant child trying to direct people's lives based on a mix of mostly garbage inputs it has gathered.

It is a data farming program and only gathers what appears to be the most popular opinions, then it reasons that they must be correct based on volume.

Inputs are easily manipulated to predetermine the outputs.

Click to expand...

Sometimes, people need to research for themselves. It's not my job to provide the actual micron data of a certain filter.

From what I can gleam. The 492932 filter is a 36 micron with 48 sq/in of filter media whereas the 696854 is a 28 micron with 96 sq/in of media. Supposed to be in the 2003 briggs update seminar handbook, but as of right now the briggs dealer site only goes back to 2005 so can't confirm

MParr said:

AI is your friend.
The longer version of either color will capture more particulate.
There are better filters than B&S, Kohler, or Kawasaki. All three engine manufacturers outsource their oil filter manufacturing to the lowest bidder.

Click to expand...

What is the knowledge base that informs your statement?

ILENGINE said:

From what I can gleam. The 492932 filter is a 36 micron with 48 sq/in of filter media whereas the 696854 is a 28 micron with 96 sq/in of media. Supposed to be in the 2003 briggs update seminar handbook, but as of right now the briggs dealer site only goes back to 2005 so can't confirm

Click to expand...

Thats very interesting.

• The B&S Yellow oil filters PN 696854 is 28 micron with 96 sq/in of media. This is twice the media surface area, of the same external sized Short Black 492932. Yes more pleats could squeeze in more media but twice as much, sounds a little far-fetched.
• The Yellow filters external height is about 1/2 or less than the B&S Long Black oil filter, (PN 491056) which I have always used on my own equipment.
• IF (?) the external height is any indication, that would make the Black 36 micron x 96 sq/in of media = media surface area to the Yellow.

As stated earlier: -

• Finer/smaller micron presents greater resistance to fluid (oil) flow for the same surface unit area.
• To overcomes this the surface area may be increased.
• However the small micron will block faster (catch more material) than a larger micron.
• Again this can be mitigated by having a larger surface area.

Finer does not automatically mean better.

• Filters must always compromise between micron, surface area and time in service (blocking up).
• The size of the material caught by the filter, should be that which removes harmful particles - removing smaller particles may not confer any significant benefit.

As a general observation - As a filter becomes contaminated with particles, so its ability to remove finer particles increases.

I think I will stick with the Long Black PN 491056 for my own equipment.

Skippydiesel said:

Thats very interesting.

• The B&S Yellow oil filters PN 696854 is 28 micron with 96 sq/in of media. This is twice the media surface area, of the same external sized Short Black 492932. Yes more pleats could squeeze in more media but twice as much, sounds a little far-fetched.
• The Yellow filters external height is about 1/2 or less than the B&S Long Black oil filter, (PN 491056) which I have always used on my own equipment.
• IF (?) the external height is any indication, that would make the Black 36 micron x 96 sq/in of media = media surface area to the Yellow.

As stated earlier: -

• Finer/smaller micron presents greater resistance to fluid (oil) flow for the same surface unit area.
• To overcomes this the surface area may be increased.
• However the small micron will block faster (catch more material) than a larger micron.
• Again this can be mitigated by having a larger surface area.

Finer does not automatically mean better.

• Filters must always compromise between micron, surface area and time in service (blocking up).
• The size of the material caught by the filter, should be that which removes harmful particles - removing smaller particles may not confer any significant benefit.

As a general observation - As a filter becomes contaminated with particles, so its ability to remove finer particles increases.

I think I will stick with the Long Black PN 491056 for my own equipment.

Click to expand...

Also remember since a lot of people that I know of went to full synthetic oil in there newer equipment. push mowers, riding mowers and general outdoor equipment such as log splitters, wood chippers, etc. I would think in the near future manuals or websites can say if you use full synthetic versus conventional oil the filter may play a part in the process. Just throwing that out there for the hell of it.

Zedo said:

Also remember since a lot of people that I know of went to full synthetic oil in there newer equipment. push mowers, riding mowers and general outdoor equipment such as log splitters, wood chippers, etc. I would think in the near future manuals or websites can say if you use full synthetic versus conventional oil the filter may play a part in the process. Just throwing that out there for the hell of it.

Click to expand...

Why?

What is your rational for the above opinion?

Zedo said:

Also remember since a lot of people that I know of went to full synthetic oil in there newer equipment. push mowers, riding mowers and general outdoor equipment such as log splitters, wood chippers, etc. I would think in the near future manuals or websites can say if you use full synthetic versus conventional oil the filter may play a part in the process. Just throwing that out there for the hell of it.

Click to expand...

Skippydiesel said:

Why?

What is your rational for the above opinion?

Click to expand...

Probably based on the thought that almost all small engine manufacturers have went to synthetic oils in their branded oil lineup, and some have went exclusive synthetic or synthetic blend oils. And all of the small engine manufacturers base their extended oil change on the "better" oil filter, and use of synthetic olls.

Most auto manufacturers have went to synthetic oils in their engines and other components straight from the factory. So the push is going full synthetics.

I am told that synthetic oils perform better, under hot conditions (eg air cooled engines), than straight mineral oils.

An oil filter will do absolutely nothing to improve the performance of an oil. The filters job is to remove contaminants - mainly metal.

Consider; I have used straight 30W oil in mainly B&S, but also Kawasaki, Honda, Kohler, Robin, Chinese Honda copies, etc or for 50 years and B&S Long Black Oil filters for almost as long - never an issue.

Remember when most small engines had no oil filter and still managed to have a long service life????

So suddenly we start to get recommendations for semi - synthetic oil and now full synthetic. At about the same time straight 30W started to become hard to find. WHY! because the retailers can sell a semi/full synthetic for more = bigger profits.

This is mostly about marketing. Synthetics may be better but at what point does better just become unnecessary?

Most of what are known as Conventional oils are in fact synthetic blends now. There are some outliers.

Skippydiesel said:

Why?

What is your rational for the above opinion?

Click to expand...

A standard filter works, but a synthetic oil filter is better for synthetic oil because it is made to last longer and capture more contaminants over extended drain intervals. If you use synthetic oil with a standard filter designed for shorter intervals, the filter may become saturated, reducing its effectiveness before the oil is due for a change.

Zedo said:

A standard filter works, but a synthetic oil filter is better for synthetic oil because it is made to last longer and capture more contaminants over extended drain intervals. If you use synthetic oil with a standard filter designed for shorter intervals, the filter may become saturated, reducing its effectiveness before the oil is due for a change.

Click to expand...

Where do you get your information from? Is there any industry verified and credible sources you base this claim on?

Might as well jump in...let's see who i can upset today.

The main reason we NEED to change oil in a small engine is because the detergents in the base oil additive package has reached its limit in being able to encapsulate and suspend the carbon from blowby. These suspended particles pass right through the filter media. That us why the oil is black when you change it. The base oil doesn't wear out, the additive package does. The oil filter is there to stop the large particles. If thise particles are metal after the first oil change then you have bigger problems than what boutique oil filter to use. Even the small briggs filter will last longer than the oil life itself. Why does the vanguard oil guard system have a 500 hour oil change interval? It holds a crap ton of oil and a big filter which will go 500 hours before the detergents saturate and the engine starts to sludge and that will plug up an oil filter. Back before detergent oils if you didn't run an engine hard and did lots of short trips and didn't get the oil hot enough to boil the water out of it i saw engines sludged up in 500 miles and the oill filter looked like black mud in it. We love to agonize over this oil or that oil is "better" or which filter is "better" when any modern oil with the proper rating and most any brand filter will work just fine as long as the oil is changed at the proper interval. We love to overthink things.
The detergents in oil work the same way it does in laundry detergent. That is why it is called laundry detergent and not laundry soap. The two are totally different.

Auto Doc's said:

Where do you get your information from? Is there any industry verified and credible sources you base this claim on?

Click to expand...

Auto Doc's said:

Where do you get your information from? Is there any industry verified and credible sources you base this claim on?

Click to expand...

If you look up the information as I have done , why do they sell synthetic oil filters and conventional oil filters for small engines? If I can Goggle it so should you. You guys think I make this stuff up, I was asking the question does it matter or not, I was putting this out there because the synthetic oil filter claims to catch smaller contaminates and less oil changes down the road , we all know that even in bigger engines such as newer cars and trucks most if not all recommend full synthetic oil from the factory for more engine protection and less frequent oil changes. You guys have time to dance around the internet looking for parts, look this up while you're at it. Dont attack me for something I researched on my own and was just curious if others had any feedback instead of "Where did you find this information at." ? As I seen some pretty stupid questions asked in this forum on small engines parts or different machinery parts and are guided through the process. I wont post this subject on this forum anymore about oil, filters, what to buy, what not to buy, it's your equipment, do as you please. I'm done replaying to this subject. Have a great day.

Zedo said:

If you look up the information as I have done , why do they sell synthetic oil filters and conventional oil filters for small engines? If I can Goggle it so should you. You guys think I make this stuff up, I was asking the question does it matter or not, I was putting this out there because the synthetic oil filter claims to catch smaller contaminates and less oil changes down the road , we all know that even in bigger engines such as newer cars and trucks most if not all recommend full synthetic oil from the factory for more engine protection and less frequent oil changes. You guys have time to dance around the internet looking for parts, look this up while you're at it. Dont attack me for something I researched on my own and was just curious if others had any feedback instead of "Where did you find this information at." ? As I seen some pretty stupid questions asked in this forum on small engines parts or different machinery parts and are guided through the process. I wont post this subject on this forum anymore about oil, filters, what to buy, what not to buy, it's your equipment, do as you please. I'm done replaying to this subject. Have a great day.

Click to expand...

It was just a simple question and not an attack on your character. I'm always open to learning new things.

Guys Guys - Beware the marketing department. All you hear/read is not necessarily as portrayed - a healthy dose of scepticism will go a long way.

Small engines have went from don't use synthetic oil because the rings won't seat to synthetic oil is the cat's meow. And the truth probably lays someplace in the middle.

Friend Hammermechanicman,
"

The main reason we NEED to change oil in a small engine is because the detergents in the base oil additive package has reached its limit in being able to encapsulate and suspend the carbon from blowby. These suspended particles pass right through the filter media. That us why the oil is black when you change it. The base oil doesn't wear out, the additive package does. The oil filter is there to stop the large particles."

Click to expand...

Your statement, above, is substantially correct
I am old enough to remember when detergents in engine oil were only used in diesel engines. In fact we were warned against detergent oils for petrols - dire consequences would result etc etc..
Then came the advice - if you start a new engine on detergent oils that would be okay BUT never use a detergent oil on a petrol engine that had been running on non detergent oil - more dire consequences predicted.
Now ALL engine oils have detergents and are recommended for both petrol & diesel applications.

"lf thise particles are metal after the first oil change then you have bigger problems than what boutique oil filter to use."

• This statement is not correct - sure there may be more metal at the first filter change, however it is a normal characteristic of the internal combustion engine that internal wear will continue (at a low rate) for the service life of the engine. In fact, opening the filter & examining the metal deposited there, is one method of assessing the health of the engine. An increasing or sudden jump in metal deposition, is a fair indication of immanent failure.

"Back before detergent oils if you didn't run an engine hard and did lots of short trips and didn't get the oil hot enough to boil the water out of it i saw engines sludged up in 500 miles and the oill filter looked like black mud in it."
Engines that spend most of their service life at optimum running temperature last longer than those that don't eg taxi/cab engines often outlast their domestic relatives. This is for two reasons -

• Water that enters the engine from the atmosphere, can only be effective removed if the oil reaches 100C (the boiling point of water) and is sustained at this temperature for a period (often suggested as a minimum of 20 minutes). Water that remains will form, with the oil, an emulsion ("sludge") which will line the oil galleries, reducing oil flow and may choke the filter - high oil pressurize is often a symptom. Back before detergent oils were commonly used in petrol engines - a check of a prospective second hand purchase was to remove the oil cap, on top of the rocker box. Sludge from a badly maintained engine would be obvious.
• Other volatile contaminants - byproducts of combustion, even fuel, are likly driven off at lower temperatures.
• The components of the engine are heated and expand to their optimum (effective) size. The engines combustion processes, lubrication, cooling are sub optimal until the engine is effectively "heat soaked". Before heat soak is where much of the internal wear takes place.

"We love to agonize over this oil or that oil is "better" or which filter is "better" when any modern oil with the proper rating and most any brand filter will work just fine as long as the oil is changed at the proper interval. We love to overthink things."
Absolutely true!

"The detergents in oil work the same way it does in laundry detergent. That is why it is called laundry detergent and not laundry soap. The two are totally different."
To a point - Most soaps will containe at least some detergent. Not all detergents containe soap. A fair indication of the presence of soap is lather/sudsing. Pure detergent does not lather. Many people equate the amount of lather with the cleaning quality of the liquid. This false expectation has lead detergent producers, to add soaps to their product to keep the customer happy/meet expectations.