Lazer won't crank

[mudpie]

I just bought an old ('04, model LHP5223KA Serial # 486852 ) Lazer Z HP. It runs a bit rough, and won't start or even crank with the key. Here's the story I got...

Seller is the original owner, and says he was mowing last week and it died. Says he never had an issue with it until now. He turns the key, and nothing. He poked around, didn't see anything obvious, and decides it's 16 years old and he's just going to buy a new one. He shows me that he can use a screwdriver to jump the terminals on the solenoid and it will start, but it runs rough. The PTO works, blades engage, and it seems to be running decently. I moved it a few feet and it died. So I bought it, because I'm a glutton for punishment.

I get it home, got it started and drove it off the trailer, and it stays running for 4 or 5 minutes, but it's rough. As soon as I try to move it I can hear it bog and I can tell it's about to die, but if I just let it sit it seems that it will stay running. I shut it down, pulled the plugs, and they're covered in black soot that looks fresh. I generally assume when something dies all of a sudden that it's probably electrical, and the fresh soot makes me believe that it is in fact a recent issue.

I want to do a compression test obviously, but I want to get the key switch working first rather than jumping the solenoid constantly. I'm in over my head trying to diagnose this thing though. I read through some similar threads and this is what I've done so far, with the plunger for the seat switch depressed...

Battery is 12.66 volts
Both fuses are good
I've got 12v to the key switch at the red wire
I've got 12v leaving the switch in the yellow wire when I turn the key to START
I've got 12v at the starter relay in the yellow wire
When I turn the key, I get no *click* at the relay
I have no voltage coming from the relay on any of the other wires

I swapped the relays and nothing changed. I'm guessing if the relay is bad, it's unlikely that both relays went bad at the same time. I'm assuming I need a signal from one of the other 3 wires going to the relay, in addition to the 12v from the yellow wire.

When I turn the key, I get a *click* from a module on the frame between the right side fuel tank and the battery. I'll try and attach a pic. I only mention it because it's the only thing that clicks when I turn they key.

So that's where I'm at, and I'm pretty much lost. Any input appreciated, even if it's just to point me in the direction of a troubleshooting guide or something that I should read. I'll keep searching, but I'm hoping there's some common (easy?) issues someone could point out to me. Electrical isn't something I'm generally good at.

Thanks

 

[bertsmobile1]

Starter solenoids come 2 ways
3 wire , one trigger wire that goes to battery voltage to cause the solenoid to close .
This type uses the body of the solenoid to make ground connection which is often poor / bad

4 wire . Two trigger wires one as per above and the second provides the ground , this wire may or may not be switched

So if the solenoid is getting both 12V + a good ground & it is not energising the starter cable, it has gone to heaven & sending you to hell
Replace it .
Pull the carburettor off ( take some photos of the connections first ) and rebuild it according to the instructions found on outdoorpowerinfo
Or just replace it
Check the muffler for obstructions , the flywheel key and the valve lash.

 

[mudpie]

...if the solenoid is getting both 12V + a good ground...

Thanks for the info. I'll do some checking. I'm a little confused about one thing though...

I assume (though I probably shouldn't) that the solenoid is getting 12v from the battery or it wouldn't crank when jumped with a screwdriver. I further assume when it's operating with the key that there has to be a signal from the starter relay to engage that 12v supply and cause the starter to do it's thing. If I'm getting 12v to the relay, but nothing coming from the relay when I turn the key, wouldn't it be logical that the problem lies in the relay somehow? Or maybe a signal missing from one of the other 3 wires that connect to the relay?

Thanks again for the input

 

[Born2Mow]

First run of the season... and most probably performed on last season's fuel. Empty all the old fuel in the tank, carb and fuel lines. Then go buy some brand new fuel. That's the most likely cause of the poor running. (You can put all that old fuel in your car without creating an issue. Your car doesn't care.)

If it runs better, you might not be out of the woods. When ethanol fuel sits it develops all sorts of junk, mung, corrosion, and blockages in ALL parts of the fuel system from the tank breather on through. You may still have some cleaning to do. You may wish to start mixing your fuel with a cleaner/conditioner to fight the effects of ethanol and prevent even more. There are several, I use StarTron.

I assume (though I probably shouldn't) that the solenoid is getting 12v from the battery or it wouldn't crank when jumped with a screwdriver. I further assume when it's operating with the key that there has to be a signal from the starter relay to engage that 12v supply and cause the starter to do it's thing.

You may be forgetting that the starter has a safety lockout controlled by the seat and parking brake. These switches must be sending the starter relay the correct "message" for the key to control the starter. The seat switches are quick to test, fast to fail, cheap to buy, and easy to replace.

Hope this helps.

 

[bertsmobile1]

Thanks for the info. I'll do some checking. I'm a little confused about one thing though...

I assume (though I probably shouldn't) that the solenoid is getting 12v from the battery or it wouldn't crank when jumped with a screwdriver. I further assume when it's operating with the key that there has to be a signal from the starter relay to engage that 12v supply and cause the starter to do it's thing. If I'm getting 12v to the relay, but nothing coming from the relay when I turn the key, wouldn't it be logical that the problem lies in the relay somehow? Or maybe a signal missing from one of the other 3 wires that connect to the relay?

Thanks again for the input

Forget the heavy cables,
They are not part of the working mechanism of the solenoid
Note I was specifically talking about the CONTROL Wires. the ones that move a contact to do internally what you are doing externally.
The small wires at he base of the solenoid .
The heavy cables could be getting 60,000 V but nothing is going to happen unless the trigger wire gets at least 10.5V and the other end is grounded .

 

[slomo]

First run of the season... and most probably performed on last season's fuel. Empty all the old fuel in the tank, carb and fuel lines. Then go buy some brand new fuel. That's the most likely cause of the poor running. (You can put all that old fuel in your car without creating an issue. Your car doesn't care.)

If it runs better, you might not be out of the woods. When ethanol fuel sits it develops all sorts of junk, mung, corrosion, and blockages in ALL parts of the fuel system from the tank breather on through. You may still have some cleaning to do. You may wish to start mixing your fuel with a cleaner/conditioner to fight the effects of ethanol and prevent even more. There are several, I use StarTron.


You may be forgetting that the starter has a safety lockout controlled by the seat and parking brake. These switches must be sending the starter relay the correct "message" for the key to control the starter. The seat switches are quick to test, fast to fail, cheap to buy, and easy to replace.

Hope this helps.

I would advise NOT to pour gas from any gas can into a car. Here's my story. Had an old 1983 CJ-7 Jeep with the straight 6 can't kill me engine. I dumped mower gas cans into it one winter. My steel fuel line ran along the frame then up vertically to the motor. At that bend, all the dirt and sand collected causing the engine to cut out on the highway. Ran fine at idle and around town. Couldn't figure it out. Brother couldn't either (good mechanic). Went back to basics air, fuel and spark. I saw fuel squirting from the Holley accelerator pump into the front barrels of the carb. So I thought fuel was fine. Had gas at the carb. Forgot why but I removed the fuel line to the carb. Pretty poor fuel delivery. Straightened the fuel line out. Dug a bunch of grit and crap in the fuel line out. Sucker ran like a champ after that. Think I emptied mowers, blowers and trimmers in that can. Course all the trash went into the 5 gallon can then into the Jeep.

slomo

 

[mudpie]

I was specifically talking about the CONTROL Wires. the ones that move a contact to do internally what you are doing externally.
The small wires at he base of the solenoid .

I get what your saying. I need to get a signal to the solenoid, which I assume comes from the starter relay.

My solenoid (which appears to be fairly new) has a pair of black wires on one terminal, and an orange wire on the other terminal that goes to the starter relay. As I mentioned, I'm getting 12v to the relay on the red wire, but when I turn the key I get no voltage on the orange wire, or any wire coming from the relay. I guess my question, which was rolling around in my head but I realize I didn't actually ask, is what do the other 3 wires at the starter relay do? Could the relay be looking for a signal from one of those wires in order to energize the relay?

I think maybe I'm getting hung up on the fact that I switched relays and still got no power coming from the relay, indicating both relays are bad, and that really seems unlikely, so my brain want's to go searching for another answer. I'll grab a couple relays and see if that does anything. In the meantime, can you tell me what that second relay is for?

Thanks again for your help.

As for old fuel, I get what your saying about dirt slomo, but I do it anyway. I try to filter all the crap out though. I have a 5 gallon can that I use just for old fuel, and I have a big filter / strainer from an old coffee maker. It's a really fine mesh stainless steel filter. I drop that in a funnel, pour the old gas through it to catch any chunks of stuff, and every so often when I'm filling up the truck (26 gallons) I dump a few gallons in with the new gas. Seems to work.

 

[bertsmobile1]

The orange wire should go to 12V with the key in the start position ( or could be 12 V all the time )
The black wires should either be ground all the time or be open & go ground when the key is in the start position.
You need voltage & ground to trip the solenoid and either or both terminals can be switched

 

[mudpie]

I replaced both relays and now get a solid *click* from both. I guess both relays were bad, which I find odd. It still doesn't crank though, so I guess there's multiple problems, which I suppose make two bad relays seem not really so odd. .

So with the old relays, I had power to the starter relay when I turn the key, and that's it. Now I've got power to the starter relay, and power coming from the starter relay and going to the other relay. Still nothing from the starter relay to the starter solenoid.

I'm assuming at this point that I've got a safety switch somewhere that's bad, and is therefore not sending the necessary signal the relay needs. I'll check those next. I believe there's the seat switch, a neutral switch on each control arm, a brake switch...what else? Is there one on the seatbelt? Any others I'm missing?

Thanks

 

[mudpie]

I'm looking at some wiring diagrams, which I'm not particularly great at following, and have a question. I need some help understanding the difference between the seat delay module (103-5218) and the seat switch (1-513152). I would assume the seat switch is a simple on/off switch that acts as a safety to prevent the machine from starting when there's nobody in the seat. What's the delay module do?

Thanks