Honda HRX 217 Warranty Denied/Smoking After Dealer Service

[jimwnola]

I am hoping someone with more understanding of engines might be able to help me. I am in the process of getting screwed by Honda and its dealer on the repair of my 2019 HRX217HYA, with the 200GVC engine. I may need to file a claim in small claims court. I need to figure out who screwed up, and how. My mower is 2.5 years old. It was having difficulty starting but ran fine after it started. It did not smoke or show any signs of oil leaking into the engine. I brought the mower to the dealer for service. The dealer diagnosed it as needing a valve adjustment. It also had an oil change. When I picked up the mower, I did a test start of the mower. I immediately noticed black smoke from the mower. I pointed out to their employee. I was told it was "normal" after a valve adjustment and it would get better. It did not. I brought it back, and, after much time, it was diagnosed as a major problem caused by sand getting into the engine from an unsealed pcv hose. The dealer believed it was a defect with the hose that had caused it to become unsealed. Honda denied the warranty claiming it appeared the pcv hose had been removed by force. The dealer remained of the opinion that the damage had taken place over time, but should have been under warranty. The dealer does not believe I did anything wrong, but also denies any wrongdoing in its original repair. The dealer offers no explanation as to why the engine only began smoking after its repair, but never beforehand. No one else has ever touched the mower. The only service I ever did before this repair was an oil change, multiple air filter replacements, and a blade change. I have never operated the mower without an filter, and routinely change them. I have owned numerous HRX's before this and never had this problem. No one wants to take any responsibility, and I am about be out almost $1000. Does anyone have a good explanation as to what might have taken place? It would appear the dealer completely missed the problem with the pcv hose in its first effort, but what might have taken place to destroy my engine, such that it only began smoking after the valve adjustment? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[sgkent]

hire an attorney who specializes in consumer law in your state. Sometimes a simple letter from him to Honda will sort it out. I would be leary of that servicing dealer. My own opinion is irrelevant in this but it is that it was the dealer's job to have noted and documented the defect when it was in there, but it is your eyes that caught it. Classic type case. Keep written notes of every conversation going forward, and recreate any conversations as best you can to date.

 

[jimwnola]

hire an attorney who specializes in consumer law in your state. Sometimes a simple letter from him to Honda will sort it out. I would be leary of that servicing dealer. My own opinion is irrelevant in this but it is that it was the dealer's job to have noted and documented the defect when it was in there, but it is your eyes that caught it. Classic type case. Keep written notes of every conversation going forward, and recreate any conversations as best you can to date.

I am a retired attorney. I wish an attorney letter always had such clout. The problem is this type of property damage claim is worth no more than $800, at best, and that assumes you eventually win. Absent fraud or special circumstances, there is no award for attorney fees, emotional distress, pain and suffering, etc., to make pursuit of the claim economically feasible. If you know a lawyer who would pursue such a claim, you're lucky, or he or she is only taking the case to get more lucrative claims from you in the future. The filing fee alone is over $100. For most, and the only potentially feasible option is going to a small claims court and representing yourself. Even then, it doesn't take very long before the hours you have to spend pursuing the claim and the all the aggravation make it a very questionable option. You pretty much have to do it on principle. I have taken notes and documented everything, but I am at a disadvantage due to my lack of mechanical knowledge. I am trying to negotiate something with the dealer, but, right now, he is only offering me a discount on a new mower. If I had a credible theory on exactly what went wrong with the repair, it would help. There a few facts that I think are not in dispute. As you noted, in the first repair, the dealer failed to note any problem with smoking of the engine, or the pcv hose. I have sworn to the dealer there was no prior problem with the engine smoking because that is the absolute truth. But what might have happened with the repair to cause permanent damage to the engine and the smoke from oil? It does not appear disputed the pcv hose had somehow worked itself off prior to the repair, and this was missed by the mechanic. But if it was off before I brought the mower in, and was causing the problem starting, why wasn't it causing any smoke? Why is Honda so adamant that the pcv hose could not have come off due to a defect? Honda claims it came off by force, but I never touched it. Is there anyway the mechanic might have accidentally done it during a repair, for what he considered to be a valve adjustment issue? The dealer says the damage to the engine looks like something that happened over time, but why no smoke until after the repair? I really hope the puzzle of what might have taken place is interesting enough for someone to try to solve it. Thanks to all.

 

[sgkent]

Document everything. Prepare for small claims where you can represent yourself. Look at the books to see what the burden of proof is when an item is under warranty and a manufacturer claims they have cause to ignore it. There has to be case law on it in your state. The legal question is do you have to prove that you did not do anything , or do they have to prove you did? If all any manufacturer had to do was say you screwed it up then nothing would ever be covered under a warranty would it? Most small engine PCV hoses send combustion gases to the air filter or manifold to be burned. Unless the engine has an inlet and an outlet hose, the PCV hose exhales, not inhales. It sends bypass gases to be burned. It does not suck air into the engine. The air filter side would allow air into the carb or manifold. If the hose is outbound of the filter then the filter would block anything sucked in. If the hose connects on the carb side of the air filter then there should be debris there where it goes in. If not then the sand etc got into your engine some other way. I have known car mechanics that used a pocket knife to cut belts so they could sell a new belt. Not all mechanics are honest people. I've known some that do crappy work. And I have fixed some of that crappy work out of my own pocket as a mechanic because it reflected on the shop and I felt obligated not to let that happen. I don't work on anything for others anymore because many people are dishonest these days. That is just how life is. But not everyone is that way.

 

[ILENGINE]

I don't think the dealer missed the hose because without removing the airbox you can't see that hose connection. And you mentioned black smoke which would be running rich and fuel related and could be related to a choke issue not oil burning. Did the dealer remove the carb, and then not get the hose reconnected. And sand wouldn't of been the issue with the smoking at least in the short turn. What would cause that kind of engine damage would be the fine powder silt that would get drawn into a split or unconnected hose. This would of occurred over a period of time unless mowing in very dusty conditions.

And on a side note, Filing a small claims case may work again you because Honda could elect to pay the claim, or they may try to fight it. If they elect to fight it there is a very good chance that the will immediately file a motion to move to federal court because it implies interstate commerce. Also there is a chance that the warranty process includes an arbitration clause that you agreed to when you purchased the mower which will get your claim dismissed. Also keep any statements that you make to stuff that is know and can be backed up. More than one customer has been countersued over making claims that are found to be untrue.

 

[jimwnola]

Thanks everyone. I settled with the dealer for a new HRX217HYA for $500 plus tax. That was the quickest way to get back mowing without taking a total loss. I have already rented a mower once, and I went way longer than I should have before doing that. So, my options were limited by the need to have a mower asap. I still have the option to try to get back money from Honda. The main thing I have going for me would be that the dealer put in the warranty claim, and Honda's own dealer's documentation asserted the problem was caused by a defective seal of the pcv hose. Of course, they could be framing the problem, just as a cya for their own mistake. I don't think that happened. I do think they made some mistakes in what they did or didn't do in the first repair, which may have contributed to or largely caused the problem. I don't know enough about engines, but, at the least, they didn't catch what they later claimed to be the issue, returned a mower that was smoking, and didn't document any issue with the smoking. Once the mower was returned, higher-ups in the company became involved in assessing what took place. I don't think those people would risk their job over this issue. From what I understand, they submitted over 50 photos to Honda to prove the problem was a manufacturing defect. I do not have access to those photos or what was submitted. I was told they show the pcv hose was not sealed. It was not completely off and couldn't be seen to be off by naked eye. The dealer believes the unsealed pcv hose is what caused the problem, and that it happened long term. Evidently, from what they say, Honda claimed it looked like it was forced off (can't imagine that to be true, certainly not be me), and the problem was due to improper maintenance, implying mower was used without a filter (definitely not true). I have lost much respect for Honda. So, I will likely not let this go. My guess is that whatever case manager who first reviewed the claim made a quick decision it was not a manufacturing defect, and was unwilling to back down from his decision after more evidence was presented. Otherwise, Honda might just has a policy of always trying to get out of warranty claims and blaming the owner. As sgkent wrote, "if all any manufacturer had to do was say you screwed it up then nothing would ever be covered under a warranty would it?" That seems like what is a happening. Honda is refusing to accept its own dealer's assessment of what took place, and either blaming me or the dealer. Since I only now what the dealer tells me, I don't know what Honda might be claiming about the repair. However, since it is an authorized service center for Honda, I assume they aren't blaming the dealer because that might be held against Honda. I might just try a BBB claim against Honda. That would involve no cost and not much time. Even if I lose, the complaint will be on Honda's record. The dealer I am using is also for Stihl, John Deere, and others.. From what they said, Honda is awful on warranty claims compared to anyone else. And yes, I don't exactly understand how sand got into engine from unsealed pcv hose, but that is what they are claiming. I do see some references on internet to that possibly happening. I do mulch leaves which can be dusty. Thanks again everyone.

 

[sgkent]

it is possible that the hose has been off since manufacture and that you are dealing with silica particles being ingested into the engine thru that port on the airbox or whatever. Grass has a lot of silica in it. That said, I have already made the decision not to buy a Honda mower based on this and some other threads here. I am in the middle of trying to resolve something on a Honda made car right now and frankly Honda is not taking care of the problem. I personally tell my friends these days, don't think Honda made anything until their customer service attitude changes.